Having myself coped with mental illness for many years
I was extremely fortunate in the early years of my diagnosis and treatment to have strong friends who stood with me --and still do
One of the most valuable, if not the most valuable, lessons that they in their roles as friends provided was that the reason for an action DOES NOT make the action and its results acceptable
If you hurt someone, behave badly or make bad choices because of your mental illness that is the reason for the action
But the Mental illness in no way excuses that fact that you have hurt, behaved badly and made wrong choices. You have an obligation as a member of the human family to apologize, correct, make restitution or whatever is needful to ameliorate the effect of those actions. It was a sometimes painful but necessary lesson
I think most people experience the effects of mental illness in one form or fashion during their lifetime, either with a parent, sibling or close friend. Most of the time we do not talk about it because it's embarassing and shameful so we avoid the issue and move onto more pleasant topics. As part of my healing process I got to talk with a alot of folks with varying degrees of sanity about about their childhood. Some of my therapy pals were regional pharmacy managers, airline pilots and medical drs, others were housewifes, felons and homeless folks or close enuf to force their family to bring them into treatment.
Much to what was shared at our therapy sessions stemmed from childhood issues, no matter the income level one thing was clear we all suffer from the affects of mental illness one way or another.
I think the ability to talk freely about what is deeply troubling us within a group of trusted peers is helpful for the recovery process however we should be wise in who we consider trusted especially when dealing with the internet and instead seek real longlasting theraputic relationships. I have seen the betrayal of trust far too often online and feel the need to add this caution.
It seems as though the most often repeated sentiment in this thread is that we all deal with something.
Successful, long-term interpersonal relationships are difficult enough in 3D. Here on the internet they are next to impossible.
For example, I met White Dove more than 30 years ago. I've known him off and on throughout the years. More off than on. Who he was over 30 years ago is not who he is now even if it seems that way to me. And vice versa. If I were to say something like, "White Dove has always been the same and will never change," that is telling of my inability to comprehend reality. However if I say, "White Dove was always kind to me," when asked what I think of him, that is telling of my willingness to remember his kindness.
Neither statements are the whole truth about White Dove. I couldn't possibly know the whole truth about him unless I lived with him throughout all those 30+ years. Even then I wouldn't know his whole truth.
(Sorry Brother Dove for 'picking' on you...you're just the one person I've known the longest who also frequents GSC.)
My point is something Ginger Tea (Remember her? I miss her.) said to me a few years back: "Attach no expectations, CoolWaters."
It made no sense to me then...and I tried and tried to make it make sense...but now I know exactly what she was saying to me.
It seems as though the most often repeated sentiment in this thread is that we all deal with something.
Yeppers, we do. Everyone, all without exception. There's thorns on them thar roses and there's pits in them thar cherries. It's HOW we deal with our something and how we treat others when dealing with our something that sets us apart from one another.
Successful, long-term interpersonal relationships are difficult enough in 3D. Here on the internet they are next to impossible.
I respectfully disagree with this. I have many, many friends through the internet, quite a few I've been friends with for over 10 years. I've made some great friends here at the cafe that, were we closer to one another, I'd even help move... :) Heck, I'd even help most of them hide a body.
Friends are friends because of how we treat each other and the mutual respect, trust, kindness and honesty. When that's violated in (3D or in cyberspace), it's often irreparable. We don't expect our friends to be perfect and we sure as heck know we're not, but there's only so much b.s. that a relationship can withstand - regardless of why the b.s. is happening.
I think Mo said it best:
One of the most valuable, if not the most valuable, lessons that they in their roles as friends provided was that the reason for an action DOES NOT make the action and its results acceptable
If you hurt someone, behave badly or make bad choices because of your mental illness that is the reason for the action
But the Mental illness in no way excuses that fact that you have hurt, behaved badly and made wrong choices. You have an obligation as a member of the human family to apologize, correct, make restitution or whatever is needful to ameliorate the effect of those actions. It was a sometimes painful but necessary lesson
I've apologized to those I can for my actions, some have forgiven me, for others it was "too little too late" and I can appreciate that. I put some of those closest to me through the ringer and I have vowed to never let myself get to a place like that again. Taking care of ourselves so that we can be a friend is the best thing we can do for those we love.
I believe the internet is defined by the one who is using it .
is it not the same for relationships?
the internet is only a tool it is not a relationship it is a machine.
people and how they relate to one another spans the earth and all of its capacity.
what one choses to believe about what they feel is not what a machine and a tool for communication is.
they are unrelated .
like the phone you do not say I love that phone when you had a conversation with a friend you say you loved the speech or talk or what words she/he said..
it sounds to me coolwaters that your lonely and searching for something.. well like in ANY form of communication I think you would do better if you defined your needs to another and go from there.
I do get about the exspectations I think ..people disappoint one another, we can be capable of great joy and fun towards our selves but we also can surprise surprise or just disappoint or the full monty of what life is to one another.
boundaries have to be had to live a life with peace. to know your own self is the best remedy to withhold difficult conversations,situations or choices in life .
people change so naturaly relationships should to grow with another personand their personhood and those changes are what makes people individuals and friends and relationships in general.
one is not able to share in the intimacy of face to face life giving intimacyon the net UNLESS more is offered, in real life and just used a tool for further communication. We do need to be aware of the reality that the internet is a removed source of comminication and really no accountability is required to participate in what it offers.
if a person on the internet tells you she/he has a wife and six kids we tend to accept that as their reality.
in real life if a person who lived in the one bedroom next door and drove a small car.. told you he had six kids and a wife you may question further or doubt his testimony at first sight .
I have been gone all weekend until now, and have just read your post-
(I THINK that explains the rest of it as well :))
How do I feel about mental illness....
I THINK...that more people suffer from it than they want to openly admit to. I also think that everyone has bouts of it in their lives relating to situational issues verses chronic issues.
I worked in the field for 4 years while I was going to college, so I actually got to be there for alot of people who I could not even pretend to understand the torment or the torture that they were experiencing on a daily or even hourly basis, but tried to JUST BE THERE for them, and do what I could.
I look back over my OWN life, and know now, without a doubt that there were times that I needed some form of anti depresant or anti anxiety assistance, and did not seek it for fear of the stigma, as you put it.
I do want to say to you..as I have said before in open forum that we are ALL broken in some way and to me, it always comes down to dealing with it somehow, even if that means outside intervention from total strangers who can help us, and hopefully learning something from it that we can carry with us to first help outselves and than, to hopefully be strong enough to help others.
I am very simplistic in my answers and also in my approach to life, so really, those are my thoughts on it.
I LOVE YOU and am so very happy that you have a better understanding for yourself and again, in my simplistic way, I know that their is great great JOY ahead for you, as you take life one minute and hour at a time and value what you are learning, experiencing and breaking through.
my friend lets call her sue has to take medicine to be able to think in a manner that is "normal" by normal I mean in the boundarys we set for health.
such as the the little green man talking to you on the counter is NOT a real person!!!
or no it is not right to think your next door neighbor is really in truth an under the cover spy plotting to rid the world of all blonde hair men and your the only one who knows!!!!!
ok meds help some people granted!!!
But here is my thing and this is not all about you cool waters it is a general belief I have and wonder about.
If a med is needed to help one seek happiness or to lessen the thoughts of worry and nervousness in social situations in anixiety.
is it really truly happiness? is it truly the ability to enjoy soicial situations without fear?
Im sorry but if one needs a medicine to cope with life and its issues which are common to all in a form of how we think I do not believe it is real.
needed maybe but i still think the original issues need to be addressed and I would hope the consel and education to learn to rewrite your thinking to a more pleasant or agreeable frame would be better than a drug.
today it seems just take this and your will be better is the quick solution to complex emotional issues that as another posted may stem from childhood.
so it is all mom and dad problem take this and you will be ok seems to be the way medical therepy is managing the many many medicines and drugs available.
i would like to seemore intervention in the form of consel and education for healthy mental health instead of these rather toxic drugs poured into so very many.
the side effects and costs to the physical body parts that must need digest them including the brain and the liver etc.. can not be a good thing.
i know many take this or that becuase the md says here this is a good one!!!
so if it works and it is always an if so many different types of anti depressants and anxiety pills on the market try this one or this one here is a new biger better solution and it costs only 300 a month!!
they do change a personality and I know it may be a good thing.. but where does this end?
I believe without better policing of the current medical marketing we all "should" or "could" be given a pill for any mood or behaviour or thought we feel we can not control.
and that to me is frightening and not being or livng in a genuine soiciety of "normal standard of thought.
Mental illness: Been there done that. Certainly staying in twi for 20+ years is sign of severe mental illness.
I don't do meds, but I still do Jesus Christ, Bible, Church, and Greasespot Cafe for comfort and respite from the storms of life.
A few weeks ago I found an out-of-print book, "God is for the emotionally ill," and was reading it at work. A guy said, "I resent that title." I said, "I didn't ask your opinion." (Surprised myself!!!)
My best friend, who has stuck with me in and out of years -- we were in sunday school together in 1952 --- is like your friend with schizophrenia (voices, high meds, on welfare, and she has diabetes, too).
Only by God's mercy and grace she hasn't quit, for which I am so thankful, because she is my friend. And she has remained kindhearted and friendly to me.
And the book, above? A nice truly Christian medical doctor who had served as a medical missionary in China and Africa gives Bible hideout (as in shelter from the storm) for emotional trials and tribulations. His basic principle is that the world is killing us, the Bible provides rules for healthy living, and Jesus can be and serve as a shelter from the storms of life.
CW, all I can add is to repeat one thing already said. Be kind to yourself. Give yourself a mental break. A saying I've come to understand better is well known but "this too will pass". Even the good will pass. So seize it when you can and allow yourself to rest then. You know I understand beating oneself up I'm sure. Be well!
Is tricky at best, and whatever WORKS for a person is what works.
The body is more than just emotions and situations, its physiological in nature, chemical in balance and there are things physically that trigger responses in the brain that can and do get better with outside intervention in the form of medication.
Yes, some people are altered by meds...in the good sense and in the good way and NO...no one should take them if they dont trigger that sort of response.
BUT AGAIN, its trail and error...its WHATEVER WORKS for that individual, and no one corners the market on what is right or wrong in regards to mental illness (I think that holds true of the the biblical truth as well).
ok I will share some of my anger since you wrote that!!!
i resent the fact i can not metion or offer prayer for a person who is sad or depresssed or worried about circumstance.
oh no not that! esp in a public forum such as work or school it is regarded as a huge social taboo and to be kept in your private life today!!!!
much like the talk of mental illness used to be.
social norms and legal laws in many mnay arenas (even some churches)
have dictated that we do not have to be exposed to the beliefs of another.
but yet it is so normal and ok to say oh i went to the dr. he gave me this drug that changes the manner in which I am able to process thought and it is considered as nromal and ok .
so the question of stigma goes rather loudly here..
try this experiemnt to find out if it is really as bad as you think.
offer prayer or bible study , or talk endlessly about your misery and your medicine and your inability to cope WATCh see which is accepted in our culture.
Jesus Christ has always had a "stigma" in our society.
true organic issues within the brain can be measured!! l
that is a fact.
the chemical imbalance crutch is used often and many many and i would say most cases of depression/anxiety is not chemical in nature, nor has there been any proven link.
how many get blood tests before given a pill? how many are set on a scedule of this measure?
few to say NONE today.. it is just assumed it might be chemical when the link is far far from conclusive anyway.
but they will tell you oh it is a chemical imablance which it is your thought are unbalanced .. not a lie..
but measurable ??? doubt it.
it is a wild spin and quite handy given the market in medical field today.
if a dr. gives a med and the patient goes on to commint suicide or murder another they are not held accountable for a law suit.
get it?
that is what has changed and very very much so.
life is no different today than it has been since the dawn of mankind.
this is not a rampant all over america major chemical breakdown of a brain disease.. it is how we handle those who do not function at par in society today that has changed.
has our society changed? um yes but stress has alwyas been a reality of life.
addictions, greed , hating of self. all these thought processes are being handled with pills and meds now instead of addressing the real issue of why is a person unhappy and what changes are needed to be happy.
why? cheaper easier and safer than what has worked from the beginning of time.
I have deeply appreciated a majority of the comments and thank each of you for your willingness to discuss this topic, and especially to those of you who have shared some of your personal journeys.
"...but yet it is so normal and ok to say oh i went to the dr. he gave me this drug that changes the manner in which I am able to process thought and it is considered as nromal and ok ...
...true organic issues within the brain can be measured!! l
that is a fact.
the chemical imbalance crutch is used often and many many and i would say most cases of depression/anxiety is not chemical in nature, nor has there been any proven link.
how many get blood tests before given a pill? how many are set on a scedule of this measure?
few to say NONE today.. it is just assumed it might be chemical when the link is far far from conclusive anyway.
but they will tell you oh it is a chemical imablance which it is your thought are unbalanced .. not a lie..
but measurable ??? doubt it.
it is a wild spin and quite handy given the market in medical field today...
Pond, would you please elaborate on these things you said. Also, are you a medical professional? What has been your firsthand experience with medications?
Believe it is a chemical imbalance or not, studies show medication does help. For some people, therapy and counseling may not even be possible until they have some measure of relief via medication. For some people, the only way they can even begin to understand the difference between what is going on inside them and what it feels like to feel "normal" cannot even begin to occur until they have been on medication.
I see this with my older son, who could not even sit at a table for a 10 minute meal until after he had been put on medication. NOW he understands what it feels like to be still, inside and out. Now he can sit through an entire meal without medication. It has taken work for him to get this far, work that probably couldn't have even begun to occur without first medication. Sure, I could have used the TWI method of trying to beat him into submission - but what would the cost have been to him emtionally then? I think that method would have had far more long lasting and devestating effects.
Sure, I could have told the school - figure out how to deal with it, I"m not medicating him. But I know that he would not be functioning educationally at near the level he is currently functioning. In fact, prior to being given medication, he could barely read because he could not focus on the page. Once being given medication, his reading took off. Now he can read without the medication.
Prior to medication, he would often end up on the floor under his desk, he could not sit in a chair and do school work. Sure, the teacher could have sent him to the office or otherwise punished him. What would the profit of that had been, if he truly could not help himself? He didn't even realize his behavior was inappropriate or that other kids were not doing the same thing. Punishment would only have served to degrade his sense of self worth, it would have made him feel stupid, ashamed. With medication and with counseling and with consequences good and bad, he is learning how to function in our society, he is excelling in school, and he values himself.
Some mental illnesses are caused by a chemical imbalance first and foremost. I suspect with others, emotional trauma and stress CAUSE chemical changes within the body. and cause mental illness. There is NO SHAME in needing medication.
Some think we have become a society dependent upon drugs to solve problems. I don't see it that. Perhaps more medications are being used because we have a better understanding of mental illnesses and how to treat them. Perhaps now we are simply offering a higher quality of life to people who otherwise might be needlessly suffering.
the only elaboration concerning chemical imbalance(if that is what your referring to)
should always come from your medical professional.
one question I personaly would ask is for a measurable calculation of what chemical is exactly inhibited .
and IF (huge!!) it can medicaly documented such asa measure I would then ask for a schedule and further updates on such .
it is a false notion that all the depression and anxiety come from an chemical "imbalance" at all , and the link has NEVER been proven as the cause of such ailments in mental health.
do we have chemicals? yep a few . do they become unbalanced? yep we eat like hogs we drink alcohol we abuse our bodies and our mind .
why are some people more worried or feel sad than others? same chemicals and without a standard measure ? well and this is exactly how it is presented your guess is as good as mine!
so try this pill and maybe and that is a huge maybe you will think you feel better becuase the drug does something to your thinking process, but does the chemical exchange in your body really ever change? um no. not unless you make the changes needed to change your own physical processes which can be done and has been done, but rarely if ever offered today.
some mental illness have been long standing and well documented such as sizsophrenic it flows a well established pattern and is be extremely conclusive.
other such as mood disorders are a like a pie in the sky.. do treatments work? welll it is a long difficult road and I believe hit and miss for many.
which in and of itself proves it has no measure.
our culture is realy fixed on medications for behaviour and moods right now it is safer for the medical comunity.. and the patient feels something is being done.
but the reality is most times the dr. doesnt even check to see if it is an organic problem for mood disorder.. and no conclusive link has ever been made hence the various types of pills available.
the medicine treats the symptoms not the illness, the illness it self is mental so that involved work from the patient and the professional and that takes money and time and effort not in the agenda when so many pharmacys want in for the bidding!!! now there is a link that can be measured for sure! and people just chose not to it is eaiser and safer to do drugs that is our culture today.
if your dr. tells you you need to take a pill for your sadness and calls it a chemical imbalance ask him for a measure ,show me the money!!!
again to say we are all a little imbalanced we have very sensitive bodies that react to how we think and live no doubt.
A conclusive link to mood disorders has never been established.
now before those involved in their treatment get the fur all puffy on the tail.. I am not making a judgement call on what a person should do or not or even what is right or wrong it is just the way it is today.
funny funny thing what we do know for sure about chemical imbalances is many of the drugs available do INDEED change how our mind and body will function and sadly often for a very long time even after you stop taking it, it is a fact medicine will and do cause a chemical imbalance sometimes permantly. itis up to the idividual but I feel sad becuase people are not being educated about the risks and the other options available to feel better.
i do agree with you abby about the better quality of life for those who suffer, esp behavioural changes that allow the disabled to now do more and live much much better.
I applaud that and would never want to go back to the ideas and means that had to be used before these drugs where available.
I just think today drs. are willing to give out some very serious drugs to save their own risk in practicing medicine. i think they market drugs on the radio and tv and media and it is gettying dangerous to trust all we hear without education.
I do not know if there are blood tests to measure chemical imbalances yet, though I would bet someone somewhere is working on it. However, I do know that they can measure differences in brain function with some disorders.
"I applaud that and would never want to go back to the ideas and means that had to be used before these drugs where available.
I just think today drs. are willing to give out some very serious drugs to save their own risk in practicing medicine. i think they market drugs on the radio and tv and media and it is gettying dangerous to trust all we hear without education."
I think those two statements give a more balanced view of what you are trying to say, than some of your prior statements do. I agree there are doctors willing to toss out drugs without investigating things further. I have experienced that with my son as well and I have turned down certain medications in lieu of more homeopathic remedies. I have also turned down certain medications because I felt the risks or side effects were worse than then benefits. It does behoove us to educate ourselves on these issues.
Great post Abby. I understand chemical imbalance, have lived with it for years. Stress, pregnancies, pms was enough to send things so far out of whack that the anxiety attacks suffered seemed like they would crush me.
Too bad that Iwas taught to be afraid of medicines and Dr.s it would have saved a decade or so of needless suffering.
Too bad that it is viewed as a sign of weakness to get help when needed.
I recently found out that each of my brother and sisters suffers from the same symptoms occasionally
.. I now recognise the symptoms in my mom as well.
I even see it in one of my daughters. What is great is that now that I understand that it is not a devil spirit issue, nor a suck it up and renew your mind issue or a pray a little harder issue....I am able to help my daughter when her stress and anxiety become overwhelming.
It really HELPS to know that it is chemical and when the brain stops misfiring the fear/run/scared message .... we will be just fine...in other words we know that it will pass shortly if we don`t feed into it.
It is wonderfull to know that there is a medicine that will help restore balance IF it ever becomes overwhelming again.
As to what kind of treatment is correct for each person.
It has been pointed out that is best left to the professionals.
To say that one should eschew medication and treat the underlying causes in the case of mental illness, is IMO short sighted at best. You wouldn't tell a liver cancer patient that they shouldn't do chemotherapy until it was ascertained was caused their cancer. The brain is just another part of the body and should be treated with medication as needed when beset by illness.
If you are diabetic, you take medicine to BALANCE the imbalance of the tolerance of insulin within your body to regulate the chemical and lets say hormonal inbalance that you have.
If you have a heart condition where your heart doesnt pump properly, you can actually take medication that allows your heart to not work so hard, or maybe work harder, whatever the case is for YOU so that you can actually function throughout the day...these can be electrical imbalances or muscle imbalances or even narrowing imbalances, either way....an imbalance.
If you have kidneys that do not function properly, you can actually take a drug that goes deep into the loops of the kidneys that help the imbalance of the electrolytes that you are experiencing, that actually help the kidneys to function properly, flush adequately, and be able to MEASURE what goes in and what comes out, and that it is adequate and proportional.
I would hate to tell a type one, juvinille onset diabetic.....hey, sorry, your using medicine as a crutch. Buck up, get over yourself and maybe you will be well.
and it does not ask your dr. for a measure of the chemical that is suppose to be imbalanced .
now ask for the standard.
hello it doesnt happen becuase no such thing can be measured, our chemicals which are very few really change constantly depending on how , why or what we are doing in every single capacity of life.
drugs change our chemistry this has been measured.. because it is a drug that effects our chemistry... so after you begin a therapy of drugs you will see a change.. hello !!
does not mean that the link (from the chemical imbalance to the mood)is conclusive to what a person is feeling or experiencing in mood? because now the pill will hopefully change the mood as well. see?
if you believe in the idea of it is all organic and chemical then why not just invent one pill for that chemical???? no see it isnt addressed in such a manner.. they change your mood with the meds.. you feel better.. nothing do with a chemical imbalance originaly but now that you take the pill they can show you it has changed your chemicals.. but not untill .. scary huh?
If you are diabetic, you take medicine to BALANCE the imbalance of the tolerance of insulin within your body to regulate the chemical and lets say hormonal inbalance that you have.
If you have a heart condition where your heart doesnt pump properly, you can actually take medication that allows your heart to not work so hard, or maybe work harder, whatever the case is for YOU so that you can actually function throughout the day...these can be electrical imbalances or muscle imbalances or even narrowing imbalances, either way....an imbalance.
If you have kidneys that do not function properly, you can actually take a drug that goes deep into the loops of the kidneys that help the imbalance of the electrolytes that you are experiencing, that actually help the kidneys to function properly, flush adequately, and be able to MEASURE what goes in and what comes out, and that it is adequate and proportional.
I would hate to tell a type one, juvinille onset diabetic.....hey, sorry, your using medicine as a crutch. Buck up, get over yourself and maybe you will be well.
Just a few more simple thoughts,
Dawn-Juan
the difference is measure.
hello !!!
we can not measure mood or feelings or what a patient claims to think or worry about.
we can measure many of the systems in our body very very well such as the ones you metioned.
we give the body a substance that is supply a measured needed ingredient that works with that ORGANIC process that has been proven successful with all and that means each and every course of the issue!
different person same course of action.. in the above physical issues.
mental health is far more complicated and dealt with in a much different manner.
we can exchange many of our parts transplants are a common thing today. ever hear of a feelings or mood transplant? even if we exchange brain cells it does not change how an individual will process their moods. amazing huh?
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templelady
Having myself coped with mental illness for many years
I was extremely fortunate in the early years of my diagnosis and treatment to have strong friends who stood with me --and still do
One of the most valuable, if not the most valuable, lessons that they in their roles as friends provided was that the reason for an action DOES NOT make the action and its results acceptable
If you hurt someone, behave badly or make bad choices because of your mental illness that is the reason for the action
But the Mental illness in no way excuses that fact that you have hurt, behaved badly and made wrong choices. You have an obligation as a member of the human family to apologize, correct, make restitution or whatever is needful to ameliorate the effect of those actions. It was a sometimes painful but necessary lesson
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herbiejuan
I think most people experience the effects of mental illness in one form or fashion during their lifetime, either with a parent, sibling or close friend. Most of the time we do not talk about it because it's embarassing and shameful so we avoid the issue and move onto more pleasant topics. As part of my healing process I got to talk with a alot of folks with varying degrees of sanity about about their childhood. Some of my therapy pals were regional pharmacy managers, airline pilots and medical drs, others were housewifes, felons and homeless folks or close enuf to force their family to bring them into treatment.
Much to what was shared at our therapy sessions stemmed from childhood issues, no matter the income level one thing was clear we all suffer from the affects of mental illness one way or another.
I think the ability to talk freely about what is deeply troubling us within a group of trusted peers is helpful for the recovery process however we should be wise in who we consider trusted especially when dealing with the internet and instead seek real longlasting theraputic relationships. I have seen the betrayal of trust far too often online and feel the need to add this caution.
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CoolWaters
It seems as though the most often repeated sentiment in this thread is that we all deal with something.
Successful, long-term interpersonal relationships are difficult enough in 3D. Here on the internet they are next to impossible.
For example, I met White Dove more than 30 years ago. I've known him off and on throughout the years. More off than on. Who he was over 30 years ago is not who he is now even if it seems that way to me. And vice versa. If I were to say something like, "White Dove has always been the same and will never change," that is telling of my inability to comprehend reality. However if I say, "White Dove was always kind to me," when asked what I think of him, that is telling of my willingness to remember his kindness.
Neither statements are the whole truth about White Dove. I couldn't possibly know the whole truth about him unless I lived with him throughout all those 30+ years. Even then I wouldn't know his whole truth.
(Sorry Brother Dove for 'picking' on you...you're just the one person I've known the longest who also frequents GSC.)
My point is something Ginger Tea (Remember her? I miss her.) said to me a few years back: "Attach no expectations, CoolWaters."
It made no sense to me then...and I tried and tried to make it make sense...but now I know exactly what she was saying to me.
Attach no expectations.
It's becoming my mantra...hopefully. :)
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Belle
Yeppers, we do. Everyone, all without exception. There's thorns on them thar roses and there's pits in them thar cherries. It's HOW we deal with our something and how we treat others when dealing with our something that sets us apart from one another.
I respectfully disagree with this. I have many, many friends through the internet, quite a few I've been friends with for over 10 years. I've made some great friends here at the cafe that, were we closer to one another, I'd even help move... :) Heck, I'd even help most of them hide a body.Friends are friends because of how we treat each other and the mutual respect, trust, kindness and honesty. When that's violated in (3D or in cyberspace), it's often irreparable. We don't expect our friends to be perfect and we sure as heck know we're not, but there's only so much b.s. that a relationship can withstand - regardless of why the b.s. is happening.
I think Mo said it best:
I've apologized to those I can for my actions, some have forgiven me, for others it was "too little too late" and I can appreciate that. I put some of those closest to me through the ringer and I have vowed to never let myself get to a place like that again. Taking care of ourselves so that we can be a friend is the best thing we can do for those we love.
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pond
I believe the internet is defined by the one who is using it .
is it not the same for relationships?
the internet is only a tool it is not a relationship it is a machine.
people and how they relate to one another spans the earth and all of its capacity.
what one choses to believe about what they feel is not what a machine and a tool for communication is.
they are unrelated .
like the phone you do not say I love that phone when you had a conversation with a friend you say you loved the speech or talk or what words she/he said..
it sounds to me coolwaters that your lonely and searching for something.. well like in ANY form of communication I think you would do better if you defined your needs to another and go from there.
I do get about the exspectations I think ..people disappoint one another, we can be capable of great joy and fun towards our selves but we also can surprise surprise or just disappoint or the full monty of what life is to one another.
boundaries have to be had to live a life with peace. to know your own self is the best remedy to withhold difficult conversations,situations or choices in life .
people change so naturaly relationships should to grow with another personand their personhood and those changes are what makes people individuals and friends and relationships in general.
one is not able to share in the intimacy of face to face life giving intimacyon the net UNLESS more is offered, in real life and just used a tool for further communication. We do need to be aware of the reality that the internet is a removed source of comminication and really no accountability is required to participate in what it offers.
if a person on the internet tells you she/he has a wife and six kids we tend to accept that as their reality.
in real life if a person who lived in the one bedroom next door and drove a small car.. told you he had six kids and a wife you may question further or doubt his testimony at first sight .
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prayingfordaylight
Cool,
I have been gone all weekend until now, and have just read your post-
(I THINK that explains the rest of it as well :))
How do I feel about mental illness....
I THINK...that more people suffer from it than they want to openly admit to. I also think that everyone has bouts of it in their lives relating to situational issues verses chronic issues.
I worked in the field for 4 years while I was going to college, so I actually got to be there for alot of people who I could not even pretend to understand the torment or the torture that they were experiencing on a daily or even hourly basis, but tried to JUST BE THERE for them, and do what I could.
I look back over my OWN life, and know now, without a doubt that there were times that I needed some form of anti depresant or anti anxiety assistance, and did not seek it for fear of the stigma, as you put it.
I do want to say to you..as I have said before in open forum that we are ALL broken in some way and to me, it always comes down to dealing with it somehow, even if that means outside intervention from total strangers who can help us, and hopefully learning something from it that we can carry with us to first help outselves and than, to hopefully be strong enough to help others.
I am very simplistic in my answers and also in my approach to life, so really, those are my thoughts on it.
I LOVE YOU and am so very happy that you have a better understanding for yourself and again, in my simplistic way, I know that their is great great JOY ahead for you, as you take life one minute and hour at a time and value what you are learning, experiencing and breaking through.
ONLY THE BEST OF INTENTIONS TO AND FOR YOU,
DAWN
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pond
my friend lets call her sue has to take medicine to be able to think in a manner that is "normal" by normal I mean in the boundarys we set for health.
such as the the little green man talking to you on the counter is NOT a real person!!!
or no it is not right to think your next door neighbor is really in truth an under the cover spy plotting to rid the world of all blonde hair men and your the only one who knows!!!!!
ok meds help some people granted!!!
But here is my thing and this is not all about you cool waters it is a general belief I have and wonder about.
If a med is needed to help one seek happiness or to lessen the thoughts of worry and nervousness in social situations in anixiety.
is it really truly happiness? is it truly the ability to enjoy soicial situations without fear?
Im sorry but if one needs a medicine to cope with life and its issues which are common to all in a form of how we think I do not believe it is real.
needed maybe but i still think the original issues need to be addressed and I would hope the consel and education to learn to rewrite your thinking to a more pleasant or agreeable frame would be better than a drug.
today it seems just take this and your will be better is the quick solution to complex emotional issues that as another posted may stem from childhood.
so it is all mom and dad problem take this and you will be ok seems to be the way medical therepy is managing the many many medicines and drugs available.
i would like to seemore intervention in the form of consel and education for healthy mental health instead of these rather toxic drugs poured into so very many.
the side effects and costs to the physical body parts that must need digest them including the brain and the liver etc.. can not be a good thing.
i know many take this or that becuase the md says here this is a good one!!!
so if it works and it is always an if so many different types of anti depressants and anxiety pills on the market try this one or this one here is a new biger better solution and it costs only 300 a month!!
they do change a personality and I know it may be a good thing.. but where does this end?
I believe without better policing of the current medical marketing we all "should" or "could" be given a pill for any mood or behaviour or thought we feel we can not control.
and that to me is frightening and not being or livng in a genuine soiciety of "normal standard of thought.
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Kit Sober
Mental illness: Been there done that. Certainly staying in twi for 20+ years is sign of severe mental illness.
I don't do meds, but I still do Jesus Christ, Bible, Church, and Greasespot Cafe for comfort and respite from the storms of life.
A few weeks ago I found an out-of-print book, "God is for the emotionally ill," and was reading it at work. A guy said, "I resent that title." I said, "I didn't ask your opinion." (Surprised myself!!!)
My best friend, who has stuck with me in and out of years -- we were in sunday school together in 1952 --- is like your friend with schizophrenia (voices, high meds, on welfare, and she has diabetes, too).
Only by God's mercy and grace she hasn't quit, for which I am so thankful, because she is my friend. And she has remained kindhearted and friendly to me.
And the book, above? A nice truly Christian medical doctor who had served as a medical missionary in China and Africa gives Bible hideout (as in shelter from the storm) for emotional trials and tribulations. His basic principle is that the world is killing us, the Bible provides rules for healthy living, and Jesus can be and serve as a shelter from the storms of life.
In hope,
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ChattyKathy
CW, all I can add is to repeat one thing already said. Be kind to yourself. Give yourself a mental break. A saying I've come to understand better is well known but "this too will pass". Even the good will pass. So seize it when you can and allow yourself to rest then. You know I understand beating oneself up I'm sure. Be well!
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prayingfordaylight
I think......
MENTAL ILLNESS.....
as with the rest of life....
Is tricky at best, and whatever WORKS for a person is what works.
The body is more than just emotions and situations, its physiological in nature, chemical in balance and there are things physically that trigger responses in the brain that can and do get better with outside intervention in the form of medication.
Yes, some people are altered by meds...in the good sense and in the good way and NO...no one should take them if they dont trigger that sort of response.
BUT AGAIN, its trail and error...its WHATEVER WORKS for that individual, and no one corners the market on what is right or wrong in regards to mental illness (I think that holds true of the the biblical truth as well).
Just some additional simplistic thoughts,
DAWN-JUAN
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pond
oh my kit sober!!!1
how perfect !
ok I will share some of my anger since you wrote that!!!
i resent the fact i can not metion or offer prayer for a person who is sad or depresssed or worried about circumstance.
oh no not that! esp in a public forum such as work or school it is regarded as a huge social taboo and to be kept in your private life today!!!!
much like the talk of mental illness used to be.
social norms and legal laws in many mnay arenas (even some churches)
have dictated that we do not have to be exposed to the beliefs of another.
but yet it is so normal and ok to say oh i went to the dr. he gave me this drug that changes the manner in which I am able to process thought and it is considered as nromal and ok .
so the question of stigma goes rather loudly here..
try this experiemnt to find out if it is really as bad as you think.
offer prayer or bible study , or talk endlessly about your misery and your medicine and your inability to cope WATCh see which is accepted in our culture.
Jesus Christ has always had a "stigma" in our society.
not so much with the mental illness today.
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pond
true organic issues within the brain can be measured!! l
that is a fact.
the chemical imbalance crutch is used often and many many and i would say most cases of depression/anxiety is not chemical in nature, nor has there been any proven link.
how many get blood tests before given a pill? how many are set on a scedule of this measure?
few to say NONE today.. it is just assumed it might be chemical when the link is far far from conclusive anyway.
but they will tell you oh it is a chemical imablance which it is your thought are unbalanced .. not a lie..
but measurable ??? doubt it.
it is a wild spin and quite handy given the market in medical field today.
if a dr. gives a med and the patient goes on to commint suicide or murder another they are not held accountable for a law suit.
get it?
that is what has changed and very very much so.
life is no different today than it has been since the dawn of mankind.
this is not a rampant all over america major chemical breakdown of a brain disease.. it is how we handle those who do not function at par in society today that has changed.
has our society changed? um yes but stress has alwyas been a reality of life.
addictions, greed , hating of self. all these thought processes are being handled with pills and meds now instead of addressing the real issue of why is a person unhappy and what changes are needed to be happy.
why? cheaper easier and safer than what has worked from the beginning of time.
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CoolWaters
At this point I need to bow out of this thread.
I have deeply appreciated a majority of the comments and thank each of you for your willingness to discuss this topic, and especially to those of you who have shared some of your personal journeys.
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T-Bone
Pond, would you please elaborate on these things you said. Also, are you a medical professional? What has been your firsthand experience with medications?
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Abigail
Believe it is a chemical imbalance or not, studies show medication does help. For some people, therapy and counseling may not even be possible until they have some measure of relief via medication. For some people, the only way they can even begin to understand the difference between what is going on inside them and what it feels like to feel "normal" cannot even begin to occur until they have been on medication.
I see this with my older son, who could not even sit at a table for a 10 minute meal until after he had been put on medication. NOW he understands what it feels like to be still, inside and out. Now he can sit through an entire meal without medication. It has taken work for him to get this far, work that probably couldn't have even begun to occur without first medication. Sure, I could have used the TWI method of trying to beat him into submission - but what would the cost have been to him emtionally then? I think that method would have had far more long lasting and devestating effects.
Sure, I could have told the school - figure out how to deal with it, I"m not medicating him. But I know that he would not be functioning educationally at near the level he is currently functioning. In fact, prior to being given medication, he could barely read because he could not focus on the page. Once being given medication, his reading took off. Now he can read without the medication.
Prior to medication, he would often end up on the floor under his desk, he could not sit in a chair and do school work. Sure, the teacher could have sent him to the office or otherwise punished him. What would the profit of that had been, if he truly could not help himself? He didn't even realize his behavior was inappropriate or that other kids were not doing the same thing. Punishment would only have served to degrade his sense of self worth, it would have made him feel stupid, ashamed. With medication and with counseling and with consequences good and bad, he is learning how to function in our society, he is excelling in school, and he values himself.
Some mental illnesses are caused by a chemical imbalance first and foremost. I suspect with others, emotional trauma and stress CAUSE chemical changes within the body. and cause mental illness. There is NO SHAME in needing medication.
Some think we have become a society dependent upon drugs to solve problems. I don't see it that. Perhaps more medications are being used because we have a better understanding of mental illnesses and how to treat them. Perhaps now we are simply offering a higher quality of life to people who otherwise might be needlessly suffering.
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pond
the only elaboration concerning chemical imbalance(if that is what your referring to)
should always come from your medical professional.
one question I personaly would ask is for a measurable calculation of what chemical is exactly inhibited .
and IF (huge!!) it can medicaly documented such asa measure I would then ask for a schedule and further updates on such .
it is a false notion that all the depression and anxiety come from an chemical "imbalance" at all , and the link has NEVER been proven as the cause of such ailments in mental health.
do we have chemicals? yep a few . do they become unbalanced? yep we eat like hogs we drink alcohol we abuse our bodies and our mind .
why are some people more worried or feel sad than others? same chemicals and without a standard measure ? well and this is exactly how it is presented your guess is as good as mine!
so try this pill and maybe and that is a huge maybe you will think you feel better becuase the drug does something to your thinking process, but does the chemical exchange in your body really ever change? um no. not unless you make the changes needed to change your own physical processes which can be done and has been done, but rarely if ever offered today.
some mental illness have been long standing and well documented such as sizsophrenic it flows a well established pattern and is be extremely conclusive.
other such as mood disorders are a like a pie in the sky.. do treatments work? welll it is a long difficult road and I believe hit and miss for many.
which in and of itself proves it has no measure.
our culture is realy fixed on medications for behaviour and moods right now it is safer for the medical comunity.. and the patient feels something is being done.
but the reality is most times the dr. doesnt even check to see if it is an organic problem for mood disorder.. and no conclusive link has ever been made hence the various types of pills available.
the medicine treats the symptoms not the illness, the illness it self is mental so that involved work from the patient and the professional and that takes money and time and effort not in the agenda when so many pharmacys want in for the bidding!!! now there is a link that can be measured for sure! and people just chose not to it is eaiser and safer to do drugs that is our culture today.
if your dr. tells you you need to take a pill for your sadness and calls it a chemical imbalance ask him for a measure ,show me the money!!!
again to say we are all a little imbalanced we have very sensitive bodies that react to how we think and live no doubt.
A conclusive link to mood disorders has never been established.
now before those involved in their treatment get the fur all puffy on the tail.. I am not making a judgement call on what a person should do or not or even what is right or wrong it is just the way it is today.
funny funny thing what we do know for sure about chemical imbalances is many of the drugs available do INDEED change how our mind and body will function and sadly often for a very long time even after you stop taking it, it is a fact medicine will and do cause a chemical imbalance sometimes permantly. itis up to the idividual but I feel sad becuase people are not being educated about the risks and the other options available to feel better.
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pond
i do agree with you abby about the better quality of life for those who suffer, esp behavioural changes that allow the disabled to now do more and live much much better.
I applaud that and would never want to go back to the ideas and means that had to be used before these drugs where available.
I just think today drs. are willing to give out some very serious drugs to save their own risk in practicing medicine. i think they market drugs on the radio and tv and media and it is gettying dangerous to trust all we hear without education.
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prayingfordaylight
YES,
OF COURSE
it would come from a medical professional.
Dawn-juan
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Abigail
I do not know if there are blood tests to measure chemical imbalances yet, though I would bet someone somewhere is working on it. However, I do know that they can measure differences in brain function with some disorders.
"I applaud that and would never want to go back to the ideas and means that had to be used before these drugs where available.
I just think today drs. are willing to give out some very serious drugs to save their own risk in practicing medicine. i think they market drugs on the radio and tv and media and it is gettying dangerous to trust all we hear without education."
I think those two statements give a more balanced view of what you are trying to say, than some of your prior statements do. I agree there are doctors willing to toss out drugs without investigating things further. I have experienced that with my son as well and I have turned down certain medications in lieu of more homeopathic remedies. I have also turned down certain medications because I felt the risks or side effects were worse than then benefits. It does behoove us to educate ourselves on these issues.
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rascal
Great post Abby. I understand chemical imbalance, have lived with it for years. Stress, pregnancies, pms was enough to send things so far out of whack that the anxiety attacks suffered seemed like they would crush me.
Too bad that Iwas taught to be afraid of medicines and Dr.s it would have saved a decade or so of needless suffering.
Too bad that it is viewed as a sign of weakness to get help when needed.
I recently found out that each of my brother and sisters suffers from the same symptoms occasionally
.. I now recognise the symptoms in my mom as well.
I even see it in one of my daughters. What is great is that now that I understand that it is not a devil spirit issue, nor a suck it up and renew your mind issue or a pray a little harder issue....I am able to help my daughter when her stress and anxiety become overwhelming.
It really HELPS to know that it is chemical and when the brain stops misfiring the fear/run/scared message .... we will be just fine...in other words we know that it will pass shortly if we don`t feed into it.
It is wonderfull to know that there is a medicine that will help restore balance IF it ever becomes overwhelming again.
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templelady
As to what kind of treatment is correct for each person.
It has been pointed out that is best left to the professionals.
To say that one should eschew medication and treat the underlying causes in the case of mental illness, is IMO short sighted at best. You wouldn't tell a liver cancer patient that they shouldn't do chemotherapy until it was ascertained was caused their cancer. The brain is just another part of the body and should be treated with medication as needed when beset by illness.
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prayingfordaylight
Just an added thought...
If you are diabetic, you take medicine to BALANCE the imbalance of the tolerance of insulin within your body to regulate the chemical and lets say hormonal inbalance that you have.
If you have a heart condition where your heart doesnt pump properly, you can actually take medication that allows your heart to not work so hard, or maybe work harder, whatever the case is for YOU so that you can actually function throughout the day...these can be electrical imbalances or muscle imbalances or even narrowing imbalances, either way....an imbalance.
If you have kidneys that do not function properly, you can actually take a drug that goes deep into the loops of the kidneys that help the imbalance of the electrolytes that you are experiencing, that actually help the kidneys to function properly, flush adequately, and be able to MEASURE what goes in and what comes out, and that it is adequate and proportional.
I would hate to tell a type one, juvinille onset diabetic.....hey, sorry, your using medicine as a crutch. Buck up, get over yourself and maybe you will be well.
Just a few more simple thoughts,
Dawn-Juan
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pond
and it does not ask your dr. for a measure of the chemical that is suppose to be imbalanced .
now ask for the standard.
hello it doesnt happen becuase no such thing can be measured, our chemicals which are very few really change constantly depending on how , why or what we are doing in every single capacity of life.
drugs change our chemistry this has been measured.. because it is a drug that effects our chemistry... so after you begin a therapy of drugs you will see a change.. hello !!
does not mean that the link (from the chemical imbalance to the mood)is conclusive to what a person is feeling or experiencing in mood? because now the pill will hopefully change the mood as well. see?
if you believe in the idea of it is all organic and chemical then why not just invent one pill for that chemical???? no see it isnt addressed in such a manner.. they change your mood with the meds.. you feel better.. nothing do with a chemical imbalance originaly but now that you take the pill they can show you it has changed your chemicals.. but not untill .. scary huh?
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pond
the difference is measure.
hello !!!
we can not measure mood or feelings or what a patient claims to think or worry about.
we can measure many of the systems in our body very very well such as the ones you metioned.
we give the body a substance that is supply a measured needed ingredient that works with that ORGANIC process that has been proven successful with all and that means each and every course of the issue!
different person same course of action.. in the above physical issues.
mental health is far more complicated and dealt with in a much different manner.
we can exchange many of our parts transplants are a common thing today. ever hear of a feelings or mood transplant? even if we exchange brain cells it does not change how an individual will process their moods. amazing huh?
big difference.
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