Well there were many issues, rampant adultery, and misuse of money were but a part of it.
Pop was about a power grab. Chris Geer couldn`t have taken any exception to the problems because he was a full fledged participant in the most vile abuse of victims.
I don`t believe there was anything spiritual about the confrontation...they simply didn`t give a damn about *the word in peoples lives*
Can anyone tell me what the BOT did and what they were guilty of doing and not changing in "86?
I think the key to understanding this is to look at what Martindale was doing (and not doing). As soon as he became president, he abandoned the overall agenda that VPW had spent his time on and focused primarily on his "athletes of the spirit" production. He spent a lot of time on learning how to "dance" and teaching the "spiritul significance of colors"...While he was doing all this, Wierwille bitterly commented that the presidency of twi was vacant. Soon after Wierwille's death, Martindale began dismantling the programs that VPW had built and changing the teachings as well...soon after this he purged the top leaders out of twi in favor of those who were unquestioningly loyal to HIM.
Geer was of the "old school" who believed in what VPW had been doing and Martindale's departure from VPW's agenda was interpretated by Geer as "turning his back on God". Twi, like most cults were built around the personality of a charismatic leader. When Wierwille died, the division, the strife and the discontent was predictable.
...And Rascal is right...It was about a "power grab".
Geer accused the BOT of not doing what he insisted was what VPW wanted, and ultimately killing him.
All 3 of them confesed as guilty in response to Geer's POP paper:
The hand written sections read as follows:
I've read this several times. I believe it to be the truth. It must be adhered to for the survival of this ministry. I stand with The Teacher and the truth of his last words. I love you.
signed: L. Craig Martindale
I read it and all is true. I've felt it and didn't know what to do. So I will change to do my best for the man I helped kill.
signed: Howard R. Allen
I've read this and am thankful for the revelation. I apologize for not having followed my "man of God." I shall be a doer of the Word more and more as I renew my commitment to God's Word. Thank you Chris for having eyes to see and ears to hear.
I've skimmed through POP and was left wondering what specificly CG was saying the BOT was doing wrong, too. I was amazed when I saw the scanned document above. I still don't get what they were admitting to. Did Howard actually believe he helped kill VPW? (I thought smoking did this.) Then later LCM said it was Geer who killed VPW. WTF?
I think Rascal, Groucho and GreasyTech [thanks for posting that signed letter] just about summed up what the BOT didn't do. I'll tell you what else they didn't do - exert their usual overbearing control over TWI followers during this time - which allowed for a lot of people TO THINK - and hence an escalating mass exodus! Free!!! Free at last!!!!!!!!
Can anyone tell me what the BOT did and what they were guilty of doing and not changing in "86?
I think many people were confused and perhaps still are as to why Chris G came to them first to "set things right" and stated in the POP that they had walked away from the Word and God and the problems came from the top down to them and beyond? What exactly were the transgressions and what did they look like? It had to have been more than the adultery thing and the missuse of the money.
Considering Wierwille's (and Geer's) character or lack there of the main transgression was taking power and control away from Doc Vic and later from Geer.
And ultimately, why weren't we told so that the BOT would be accountable to the people, and how could anything be fixed if we didn't know what was wrong and where to fix it?
"The Word" was just a facade that VPW, Geer, Martindale and the BOT hid behind. Power and control were always the main priority. Damn the word. Damn good doctrine. The corporation was set up so that the "leaders" would never be accountable to the followers. The BOT was never interested in fixing anything except their positions.
I think a whole slew of people wouldn't have continued to be deceived for so long, and many, many transgressions would have not been commited against them if there were some clarity about what the actual problems were, rather than continueing to cover up and sweep them under the rug.
True, but deception was a huge part of maintaining power and control. Clarity was never on the BOT's agenda. Dammage control was the order of the day.
The outcome in not knowing was the ministry and the vitality of the Word in people's lives was lost anyway.
The "ministry" was lost and doomed from the beginning. If we had "known" the real TWI and the real VPW from the begining, most of us would never have gotten involved in the first place.
The Word, and the vitality that come with it can never be lost in the life of a believer unless that person relies upon a person or a group to make it live for them.
If the vitality of the word was lost to us because of not knowing what was going on in the back rooms of TWI, then we put put trust in the wrong place. Trust God, not people or organizations.
It was a power grab, pure and simple. CG's ego is overwhelming. Fruits of his work, however, are the collapse of what was actually entrusted to him - Gartmore. It didn't last long, after the split. Less than 15 years and absolutely nothing was left.
Quite possibly if his power grab had succeeded, TWI would have collapsed earlier, too. Or maybe not.
Always had my doubts about that document with the signed "confessions". I could at one time see Howard meekly signing it (I'd always thought him very meek to the word until I read some of the posts here on GSC; now I'm not so sure :( ). Could also see Don signing it. Have a difficulty with LCM but he did at one time say he tried to go along with some of CG's points.
For all we know, the "apologies" and signatures on the document are all forgeries.
What did the BOT do? They abused, hurt and debased on any whim.
VPW - smart, charismatic, liar, drunk, woman abuser, self styled Paul on a stick
DW - smart, dull follower
HA - arrogant stupid cornfield f(ck - listened to him say to a branch meeting on the southside of Chitown, "some of my best friends are black" Nice H0w@rd really nice
LCM - not smart at all, quick witted, a dolt if you had a REAL conversation with him, woman abuser, self syled Moses on a stick
Geer - arrogant from day one - I met him in 1974 - he was arrogant then and never changed his tune. POP was all about Geer not about some mythical patriarch, woman abuser, self styled Jesus on a stick
Platig - Soft spoken arrgant jerk who should have been the dancer in AOS - told some friends of mine not to get married - I married 'em and that was 22 years ago - they have two fine kids and are still hopelessly in love - so much for revelation from Platig
Dunno any of the new BOT but well listening to the posts on GSC it only went down hill from there
Groucho you were remarkably mellow in you post...NRPS still gets played here
If it is it's a damn good forgery. Having seen all of their hand writing plenty of times, it seems authentic to me.
Shortfuse is right, it is also confirmed on audio tape. Craig never denied it at Corps week in fact he admitted it and asked for forgiveness in the center of the stage. It was also confirmed in letters from the trustees at a later point. I don't think it has anything to do with a power grab it was a confrontation actually a second one as the first did not work. They agreed because it was true and they knew it. Upon realizing what they were losing they decided that they liked the view of their future as it was not as it looked like if they continued to admit their ways. The only grab for power was the trustees scrambling to save theirs.
A classic case of the bus driver trying to hijack the bus.
LOL Good one!
If the vitality of the word was lost to us because of not knowing what was going on in the back rooms of TWI, then we put put trust in the wrong place. Trust God, not people or organizations.
Sadly, I agree completely.
Overall, I think we understand what the BOT did or didn't do after the POP was read publically, but I'm not so sure we know what went on beforehand and what led up to the state of affairs being so bad at twi, or what they were reproved of by G**r.
I've skimmed through POP and was left wondering what specificly CG was saying the BOT was doing wrong, too. I was amazed when I saw the scanned document above. I still don't get what they were admitting to. Did Howard actually believe he helped kill VPW? (I thought smoking did this.) Then later LCM said it was Geer who killed VPW. WTF?
You can look FOREVER- nothing specific was ever mentioned.
There was some vague admissions of "not doing the Word" stuff.
Howard's "confession" had to do with the idea that vpw could have used his super-believing and become de-cancered "if only" he would have had support from twi's top people.
That's what PoP says. It really tugs on the heartstrings...
In the real world, vpw was an alcoholic and drank ALL THE TIME.
This weakened his body's filtration systems-like his liver.
vpw was also a chain-smoker, and took in tobacco ALL THE TIME.
This exposed his body to a known carcinogen- which was publicly known back
in the 1940s and onward.
This meant vpw was exposed-over decades-to things that would give him cancer
and reduce his body's ability to fight off cancer.
According to vpw's "LAW of Believing", any exposure to cancer would be easy to destroy
with a simple application of "positive believing." If you reread PoP, you'll see cg referred to
this, and thought that vpw could "change his mind" and delete his own cancer.
Meanwhile, vpw told the corps that the source of his cancer was the bright lights used in
filming 2 weeks of foundational class in the early 1970s. Do I need to tell you that bright lights
do not cause cancer? Attributing it to this "noble" source meant it wasn't the result of him
spending thousands of dollars of ABS and tithes to support his VICES.
He was specific that his cancerous eye was directly the result of his "moving the Word".
We have eyewitnesses here that heard him speak on committments to God and say
"I gave MY EYE- what are YOU willing to give?"
Mind you,
a lot of twi-ers didn't even know about the CANCER.
A lot of us heard "he just stopped believing", and that's ALL we heard.
So, what actually killed vpw?
It's like some game of Clue.
Was it the cigar with the tobacco in the study?
Was it the successor with the leotards in the auditorium?
Was it the bus driver with the bad news in the Scottish village?
Was it the old pal with the opportunism in the OSC?
Was it the scion with the incompatible priorities in the Kansas campus?
Was it the decanter with the Drambuie in the office?
You can look FOREVER- nothing specific was ever mentioned.
Exactly! Hence, the confusion that many had in not knowing what to do. You really can't solve a problem if you don't know where or how it's occurring or where or what to apply the change to, or even if it applies to you.
In Corinthians we see the myriad of transgressions of the Church stated openly, publically and specifically, they were told to stop practicing specific actions, as well as given the information of what their conduct, actions, and heart should be. I am saddened that is not what happened, and that the attitudes of covert concealment so that the "ministry be not blamed" was still the edict of the day.
Exactly! Hence, the confusion that many had in not knowing what to do. You really can't solve a problem if you don't know where or how it's occurring or where or what to apply the change to, or even if it applies to you.
In Corinthians we see the myriad of transgressions of the Church stated openly, publically and specifically, they were told to stop practicing specific actions, as well as given the information of what their conduct, actions, and heart should be. I am saddened that is not what happened, and that the attitudes of covert concealment so that the "ministry be not blamed" was still the edict of the day.
But now I see, during the crisis after POP I was in such turmoil. I was more than sad - it was like hearing your best friend has inoperable cancer. At first feeling like the wind was yanked out of my sails - but as time passed I have found my faith energized by reading the Bible with the freedom to think for myself. You are passionate about how Corinthians shows how things should be handled in the church. You'll NEVER see that happen at TWI - they just play church!
Another big deal was coming to the realization that my downfall was in absorbing TWI teachings while in it - rather than engaging my brain and analyzing them - yes that's where real "vitality" comes from - when your mind figures something out! It's electrifying when we use our noggin' - because God designed it to be used - that's smart faith! Furthermore - imho we didn't lose anything by this disruption in TWI's kingdom - I'm glad it happened - it freed a lot of people...I really like the way Goey put things so I thought I'd bring them up again:
"The Word" was just a facade that VPW, Geer, Martindale and the BOT hid behind. Power and control were always the main priority. Damn the word. Damn good doctrine. The corporation was set up so that the "leaders" would never be accountable to the followers. The BOT was never interested in fixing anything except their positions.
The "ministry" was lost and doomed from the beginning. If we had "known" the real TWI and the real VPW from the begining, most of us would never have gotten involved in the first place.
The Word, and the vitality that come with it can never be lost in the life of a believer unless that person relies upon a person or a group to make it live for them.
If the vitality of the word was lost to us because of not knowing what was going on in the back rooms of TWI, then we put put trust in the wrong place. Trust God, not people or organizations.
T-Bone, I agree, I didn't think as far out of the box as I should have. I felt I had so much invested in twi that it broke my heart, it felt like I was experiencing a divorce when it came down to departing.
I agree with what Goey wrote as well, but I still feel that there is more to twi's reason for demise than what's been stated here on this thread.
WORDWOLF, your post of the Clue game made me laugh so hard on you systematic statements, I laughed so for the answer we all are seeking I laughed with tears and had to close the sight off just to get my composure. Good on you mate.
T-Bone, I agree, I didn't think as far out of the box as I should have. I felt I had so much invested in twi that it broke my heart, it felt like I was experiencing a divorce when it came down to departing.
I agree with what Goey wrote as well, but I still feel that there is more to twi's reason for demise than what's been stated here on this thread.
And I have to agree with you there also. You use a good analogy of experiencing divorce. It does get very complicated trying to unwind the intellectual/emotional entanglement in our heads...There is more to TWI's downfall than what's been said here - lots more - depending on your viewpoint. And on that note here's mine: I think God Almighty had the biggest hand in orchestrating the meltdown! He doesn't like idolatry, hypocrisy on a grand scale, abusing people in His name, substituting sexual predators for the Head of the Church who is Jesus Christ, religious leaders building intellectual/emotional/immoral barriers that block the way to understanding the Bible and even approaching God, sabotaging the moral compass He put in us [our conscience] and a million other gross sins - but basically giving Christianity a bad name...
You might find a study of the apostle Paul helpful. He was really committed to his religion - knew the Old Testament very well - and found no room for Jesus Christ in his belief system. Read the accounts of his conversion in Acts and read through his epistles - imagine the intellectual/emotional crisis he went through. Meeting Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus was like running into a brick wall for his theological system - you know he had to re-think so many things - and take off those Pharisee-colored glasses. And perhaps like his life after conversion - our lives are after leaving TWI. It is a life long journey of recovery - of sorting out all that we experienced and determining to make our lives better because of and/or in spite of it!
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rascal
Hello but now I see....welcome to greasespot.
Well there were many issues, rampant adultery, and misuse of money were but a part of it.
Pop was about a power grab. Chris Geer couldn`t have taken any exception to the problems because he was a full fledged participant in the most vile abuse of victims.
I don`t believe there was anything spiritual about the confrontation...they simply didn`t give a damn about *the word in peoples lives*
It was a ....ing contest pure and simple.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think the key to understanding this is to look at what Martindale was doing (and not doing). As soon as he became president, he abandoned the overall agenda that VPW had spent his time on and focused primarily on his "athletes of the spirit" production. He spent a lot of time on learning how to "dance" and teaching the "spiritul significance of colors"...While he was doing all this, Wierwille bitterly commented that the presidency of twi was vacant. Soon after Wierwille's death, Martindale began dismantling the programs that VPW had built and changing the teachings as well...soon after this he purged the top leaders out of twi in favor of those who were unquestioningly loyal to HIM.
Geer was of the "old school" who believed in what VPW had been doing and Martindale's departure from VPW's agenda was interpretated by Geer as "turning his back on God". Twi, like most cults were built around the personality of a charismatic leader. When Wierwille died, the division, the strife and the discontent was predictable.
...And Rascal is right...It was about a "power grab".
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GT
Geer accused the BOT of not doing what he insisted was what VPW wanted, and ultimately killing him.
All 3 of them confesed as guilty in response to Geer's POP paper:
The hand written sections read as follows:
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shortfuse
I've skimmed through POP and was left wondering what specificly CG was saying the BOT was doing wrong, too. I was amazed when I saw the scanned document above. I still don't get what they were admitting to. Did Howard actually believe he helped kill VPW? (I thought smoking did this.) Then later LCM said it was Geer who killed VPW. WTF?
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T-Bone
I think Rascal, Groucho and GreasyTech [thanks for posting that signed letter] just about summed up what the BOT didn't do. I'll tell you what else they didn't do - exert their usual overbearing control over TWI followers during this time - which allowed for a lot of people TO THINK - and hence an escalating mass exodus! Free!!! Free at last!!!!!!!!
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Nottawayfer
POP is available to read on the internet. You can read it if you can stand it. It is EXTREMELY boring and full of unimportant details.
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GT
It's on the main site, repost of what was originally on Waydale:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/misc/pop1.htm
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shortfuse
That's exactly how I felt about it and why I ended up just skimming through it.
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Goey
Considering Wierwille's (and Geer's) character or lack there of the main transgression was taking power and control away from Doc Vic and later from Geer.
"The Word" was just a facade that VPW, Geer, Martindale and the BOT hid behind. Power and control were always the main priority. Damn the word. Damn good doctrine. The corporation was set up so that the "leaders" would never be accountable to the followers. The BOT was never interested in fixing anything except their positions.True, but deception was a huge part of maintaining power and control. Clarity was never on the BOT's agenda. Dammage control was the order of the day.
The "ministry" was lost and doomed from the beginning. If we had "known" the real TWI and the real VPW from the begining, most of us would never have gotten involved in the first place.
The Word, and the vitality that come with it can never be lost in the life of a believer unless that person relies upon a person or a group to make it live for them.
If the vitality of the word was lost to us because of not knowing what was going on in the back rooms of TWI, then we put put trust in the wrong place. Trust God, not people or organizations.
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Twinky
It was a power grab, pure and simple. CG's ego is overwhelming. Fruits of his work, however, are the collapse of what was actually entrusted to him - Gartmore. It didn't last long, after the split. Less than 15 years and absolutely nothing was left.
Quite possibly if his power grab had succeeded, TWI would have collapsed earlier, too. Or maybe not.
Always had my doubts about that document with the signed "confessions". I could at one time see Howard meekly signing it (I'd always thought him very meek to the word until I read some of the posts here on GSC; now I'm not so sure :( ). Could also see Don signing it. Have a difficulty with LCM but he did at one time say he tried to go along with some of CG's points.
For all we know, the "apologies" and signatures on the document are all forgeries.
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excathedra
group narcistic delusions
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RumRunner
What did the BOT do? They abused, hurt and debased on any whim.
VPW - smart, charismatic, liar, drunk, woman abuser, self styled Paul on a stick
DW - smart, dull follower
HA - arrogant stupid cornfield f(ck - listened to him say to a branch meeting on the southside of Chitown, "some of my best friends are black" Nice H0w@rd really nice
LCM - not smart at all, quick witted, a dolt if you had a REAL conversation with him, woman abuser, self syled Moses on a stick
Geer - arrogant from day one - I met him in 1974 - he was arrogant then and never changed his tune. POP was all about Geer not about some mythical patriarch, woman abuser, self styled Jesus on a stick
Platig - Soft spoken arrgant jerk who should have been the dancer in AOS - told some friends of mine not to get married - I married 'em and that was 22 years ago - they have two fine kids and are still hopelessly in love - so much for revelation from Platig
Dunno any of the new BOT but well listening to the posts on GSC it only went down hill from there
Groucho you were remarkably mellow in you post...NRPS still gets played here
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shortfuse
If it is it's a damn good forgery. Having seen all of their hand writing plenty of times, it seems authentic to me.
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Nottawayfer
I agree SF.
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WhiteDove
Shortfuse is right, it is also confirmed on audio tape. Craig never denied it at Corps week in fact he admitted it and asked for forgiveness in the center of the stage. It was also confirmed in letters from the trustees at a later point. I don't think it has anything to do with a power grab it was a confrontation actually a second one as the first did not work. They agreed because it was true and they knew it. Upon realizing what they were losing they decided that they liked the view of their future as it was not as it looked like if they continued to admit their ways. The only grab for power was the trustees scrambling to save theirs.
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rascal
Thats just exactly what twi and chris Geer WANTED joe believer to believe.
Niether side would have had support nor would anybody have stayed were it common knowledge the true depths of evil indulged in by the bot and CG.
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T-Bone
A classic case of the bus driver trying to hijack the bus.
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now I see
Sadly, I agree completely.
Overall, I think we understand what the BOT did or didn't do after the POP was read publically, but I'm not so sure we know what went on beforehand and what led up to the state of affairs being so bad at twi, or what they were reproved of by G**r.
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WordWolf
You can look FOREVER- nothing specific was ever mentioned.
There was some vague admissions of "not doing the Word" stuff.
Howard's "confession" had to do with the idea that vpw could have used his super-believing and become de-cancered "if only" he would have had support from twi's top people.
That's what PoP says. It really tugs on the heartstrings...
In the real world, vpw was an alcoholic and drank ALL THE TIME.
This weakened his body's filtration systems-like his liver.
vpw was also a chain-smoker, and took in tobacco ALL THE TIME.
This exposed his body to a known carcinogen- which was publicly known back
in the 1940s and onward.
This meant vpw was exposed-over decades-to things that would give him cancer
and reduce his body's ability to fight off cancer.
According to vpw's "LAW of Believing", any exposure to cancer would be easy to destroy
with a simple application of "positive believing." If you reread PoP, you'll see cg referred to
this, and thought that vpw could "change his mind" and delete his own cancer.
Meanwhile, vpw told the corps that the source of his cancer was the bright lights used in
filming 2 weeks of foundational class in the early 1970s. Do I need to tell you that bright lights
do not cause cancer? Attributing it to this "noble" source meant it wasn't the result of him
spending thousands of dollars of ABS and tithes to support his VICES.
He was specific that his cancerous eye was directly the result of his "moving the Word".
We have eyewitnesses here that heard him speak on committments to God and say
"I gave MY EYE- what are YOU willing to give?"
Mind you,
a lot of twi-ers didn't even know about the CANCER.
A lot of us heard "he just stopped believing", and that's ALL we heard.
So, what actually killed vpw?
It's like some game of Clue.
Was it the cigar with the tobacco in the study?
Was it the successor with the leotards in the auditorium?
Was it the bus driver with the bad news in the Scottish village?
Was it the old pal with the opportunism in the OSC?
Was it the scion with the incompatible priorities in the Kansas campus?
Was it the decanter with the Drambuie in the office?
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now I see
Exactly! Hence, the confusion that many had in not knowing what to do. You really can't solve a problem if you don't know where or how it's occurring or where or what to apply the change to, or even if it applies to you.
In Corinthians we see the myriad of transgressions of the Church stated openly, publically and specifically, they were told to stop practicing specific actions, as well as given the information of what their conduct, actions, and heart should be. I am saddened that is not what happened, and that the attitudes of covert concealment so that the "ministry be not blamed" was still the edict of the day.
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T-Bone
But now I see, during the crisis after POP I was in such turmoil. I was more than sad - it was like hearing your best friend has inoperable cancer. At first feeling like the wind was yanked out of my sails - but as time passed I have found my faith energized by reading the Bible with the freedom to think for myself. You are passionate about how Corinthians shows how things should be handled in the church. You'll NEVER see that happen at TWI - they just play church!
Another big deal was coming to the realization that my downfall was in absorbing TWI teachings while in it - rather than engaging my brain and analyzing them - yes that's where real "vitality" comes from - when your mind figures something out! It's electrifying when we use our noggin' - because God designed it to be used - that's smart faith! Furthermore - imho we didn't lose anything by this disruption in TWI's kingdom - I'm glad it happened - it freed a lot of people...I really like the way Goey put things so I thought I'd bring them up again:
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now I see
T-Bone, I agree, I didn't think as far out of the box as I should have. I felt I had so much invested in twi that it broke my heart, it felt like I was experiencing a divorce when it came down to departing.
I agree with what Goey wrote as well, but I still feel that there is more to twi's reason for demise than what's been stated here on this thread.
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fellowshipper
WORDWOLF, your post of the Clue game made me laugh so hard on you systematic statements, I laughed so for the answer we all are seeking I laughed with tears and had to close the sight off just to get my composure. Good on you mate.
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T-Bone
And I have to agree with you there also. You use a good analogy of experiencing divorce. It does get very complicated trying to unwind the intellectual/emotional entanglement in our heads...There is more to TWI's downfall than what's been said here - lots more - depending on your viewpoint. And on that note here's mine: I think God Almighty had the biggest hand in orchestrating the meltdown! He doesn't like idolatry, hypocrisy on a grand scale, abusing people in His name, substituting sexual predators for the Head of the Church who is Jesus Christ, religious leaders building intellectual/emotional/immoral barriers that block the way to understanding the Bible and even approaching God, sabotaging the moral compass He put in us [our conscience] and a million other gross sins - but basically giving Christianity a bad name...
You might find a study of the apostle Paul helpful. He was really committed to his religion - knew the Old Testament very well - and found no room for Jesus Christ in his belief system. Read the accounts of his conversion in Acts and read through his epistles - imagine the intellectual/emotional crisis he went through. Meeting Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus was like running into a brick wall for his theological system - you know he had to re-think so many things - and take off those Pharisee-colored glasses. And perhaps like his life after conversion - our lives are after leaving TWI. It is a life long journey of recovery - of sorting out all that we experienced and determining to make our lives better because of and/or in spite of it!
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