Quit taking requests from the quitters because true understanding of spiritual matters only comes to one who continues in the Word of God and in the faith and in the things of God - not to quitters who quit. The only thing that is annointed are God's people, and He doesn't annoint quitters. Gods' people aren't quitters if they truly are God's! Quitters aren't annointed - their disqualified. That's true in every category and phase of lfe. You quit and you're disqualified!
But all these "quitters" on the Word of God and in the faith and in the things of God want us to think they're qualified to lead people? Give us a break
And since TWIItes who remain true to the "the Word" are in fact remaing true to the Intrepratation of the Word by VPW and LCM --you lknow PI--that makes them Quitters as far as following GOD
Thanks kindly. It's been a few years since I last read this.
I miss the accompanying pic-of vpw on a tourbike- but this is just fine.
================
Fellow Traveling with Jesus
Posted Monday, Sep. 6, 1971
The Jesus Revolution (TIME, June 23) includes preachers of hellfire and promoters of love, fundamentalist Christians, mainstream Protestants, and even some Roman Catholics. Most, however, at least share a common belief in the basic tenets of Christianity: the triune nature of God, the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Gospels as the cornerstone of faith. But some so-called Jesus freaks really subscribe to exotic creeds all their own that to orthodox Christians are close to what used to be called heresy. And not only to traditional churchmen: even many inside the movement look suspiciously on these fellow travelers with Jesus as distorters of the true Gospel. Two such eccentric groups are The Way and The Process:
The Way
Externally, The Way looks like any other branch of the Jesus movement: its adherents are mostly bright-eyed, smiling teenagers, ecstatically exchanging "Bless yous," telling of drug cures, perpetually thumbing their Bibles. There is also the ubiquitous music drumming across Gospel messages, sometimes to the beat of hard rock. In mid-August, more than a thousand young followers descended on The Way Biblical Research Center in New Knoxville, Ohio (pop. 850), for a weekend of spiritual study almost continuously backgrounded by rock. Musical groups of Way believers with names like The Dove, Cookin' Mama, and one from Long Island called Pressed Down, Shaken Together & Running Over, belted out the sounds.
But it is The Way's message, not its music, that is offbeat. That message is preached by the movement's founder, Victor Paul Wierwille, 54, a trim, tanned, fast-talking six-footer who likes to wear Western-cut suits with a scarf around his neck and tool around the countryside on a big Harley-Davidson. A former minister of the United Church of Christ who has studied both at the University of Chicago Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, Wierwille is now a crackerbarrel theological promoter who grandiosely claims to have done the only "pure and correct" interpretation of the Bible since the First Century. He has been working on his theology for about 25 years, ever since he shucked his academic background by burning more than 1,000 religious books "to clean myself out" before starting his own research.
Wierwille argues that the Bible as a whole is not relevant to all people of all times. Every word of Scripture is equally inspired by God, he says, but different books were addressed to different audiences. The Old Testament and the Four Gospels are for the Jews and Gentiles; the rest of the New Testament is for the "Church of God" of "born-again believers." But Wierwille and his Wayfarers concentrate mainly on the nine Epistles of St. Paul to the early churches, especially the letter to the Ephesians, which, he insists, distills nearly everything important in the Word of God.
Wierwille dismisses the doctrine of the Trinity as a throwback to paganism, because it proposes, he says, "three Gods." To him, Jesus is "the Son of God," but not God the Son. "You show me one place in the Bible where it says he is God," Wierwille thunders. "I don't want your rapping, your doubletalk, your tripletalk; all I want is Scripture." And the Holy Spirit, says Wierwille, is just a synonym for God. Wierwille's theology is propounded in pamphlets, a magazine, and books, but mainly in a filmed and taped "foundation course," into which he has unloaded 36 hours of rambling, folksy lectures on the Bible. The title of the course—which costs $65 per head: "Power for Abundant Living." Carrying Norman Vincent Peale's pious optimism a good bit further, Wierwille promises that right "believing" will keep away sickness, ensure prosperity, and even protect soldier converts from Viet Cong bullets. Poverty is seen as a result of imperfect faith: the Good Life is a proper reward for believers.
Most of Wierwille's converts come from just that Good Life: comfortable middle-or upper-class families in predominantly white suburbs. Sometimes parents have followed their youngsters into the fold. Although Wierwille founded his research center in 1953, the movement around it has started to grow only in the past few years. He keeps no records and gives only the vaguest estimate of the number of his followers—"5,000, maybe 10,000," in "most" states and "nine, twelve, 15 countries." There is a vigorous chapter in Wichita, Kans., and strong groups in Rye, N.Y., and in Mill Valley, Calif.—which are called The Way East and The Way West. All conduct meetings where they listen to Wierwille's recorded words and offer extemporaneous prayers. Attendance is also good at the sermons that Wierwille delivers in person at New Knoxville. His brother Harry, 64, the treasurer of the center, claims that Sunday services take in as much as $10,000 a night. The money, say the Wierwilles, is being used for a $3,000,000 building program to expand The Way still further.
And you do bring up a very good point WTH...How many churches held classes, revivals, seminars etcc...and left the 'new' Christians to then go home and 'flounder' with their good news ?? Just that alone left many more disappointed, hurt, confused, bitter Christians than Vp ever did I'm sure !
There was rarely any follow up etc...the 'need' for follow up is more of a recent realisation amongst the Christian circles.
Gee, all the revivals I've ever heard about always had local people to connect to RIGHT THERE
onsite AND doing followups.
Guess NZ revivals aren't as well-organized.
Or was that a guess on your part?
And no WW, I don't think I have ever defended what he did to other people, but I do defend the Word that he produced.
Does he get excused for committing evil acts BECAUSE he taught some good stuff,
and, in your opinion, did some good stuff?
Some say 'yes', some say 'no'. What saith Allan?
As far as impacting mainstream Christianity, I would say getting into Time Magazine might almost qualify, wouldn't you ??
An article in any magazine (except possibly a cover-story in "Christianity Today") is NO guarantee
that mainstream Christianity has even HEARD of you, even as a footnote.
The Jesus Revolution (TIME, June 23) includes preachers of hellfire and promoters of love, fundamentalist Christians, mainstream Protestants, and even some Roman Catholics. Most, however, at least share a common belief in the basic tenets of Christianity: the triune nature of God, the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Gospels as the cornerstone of faith. But some so-called Jesus freaks really subscribe to exotic creeds all their own that to orthodox Christians are close to what used to be called heresy. And not only to traditional churchmen: even many inside the movement look suspiciously on these fellow travelers with Jesus as distorters of the true Gospel. Two such eccentric groups are The Way and The Process:
-------------
The Way
Externally, The Way looks like any other branch of the Jesus movement: its adherents are mostly bright-eyed, smiling teenagers, ecstatically exchanging "Bless yous," telling of drug cures, perpetually thumbing their Bibles. There is also the ubiquitous music drumming across Gospel messages, sometimes to the beat of hard rock. In mid-August, more than a thousand young followers descended on The Way Biblical Research Center in New Knoxville, Ohio (pop. 850), for a weekend of spiritual study almost continuously backgrounded by rock. Musical groups of Way believers with names like The Dove, Cookin' Mama, and one from Long Island called Pressed Down, Shaken Together & Running Over, belted out the sounds.
But it is The Way's message, not its music, that is offbeat. That message is preached by the movement's founder, Victor Paul Wierwille, 54, a trim, tanned, fast-talking six-footer who likes to wear Western-cut suits with a scarf around his neck and tool around the countryside on a big Harley-Davidson. A former minister of the United Church of Christ who has studied both at the University of Chicago Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, Wierwille is now a
crackerbarrel theological promoter who grandiosely claims to have done the only "pure and correct" interpretation of the Bible since the First Century.
He has been working on his theology for about 25 years, ever since he shucked his academic background by burning more than 1,000 religious books "to clean myself out" before starting his own research.
Wierwille argues that the Bible as a whole is not relevant to all people of all times. Every word of Scripture is equally inspired by God, he says, but different books were addressed to different audiences. The Old Testament and the Four Gospels are for the Jews and Gentiles; the rest of the New Testament is for the "Church of God" of "born-again believers." But Wierwille and his Wayfarers concentrate mainly on the nine Epistles of St. Paul to the early churches, especially the letter to the Ephesians, which, he insists, distills nearly everything important in the Word of God.
Wierwille dismisses the doctrine of the Trinity as a throwback to paganism, because it proposes, he says, "three Gods." To him, Jesus is "the Son of God," but not God the Son. "You show me one place in the Bible where it says he is God," Wierwille thunders.
"I don't want your rapping, your doubletalk, your tripletalk; all I want is Scripture."
And the Holy Spirit, says Wierwille, is just a synonym for God. Wierwille's theology is propounded in pamphlets, a magazine, and books, but mainly in a filmed and taped "foundation course," into which he has
unloaded 36 hours of rambling, folksy lectures on the Bible. The title of the course—which costs $65 per head: "Power for Abundant Living." Carrying Norman Vincent Peale's pious optimism a good bit further, Wierwille promises that right "believing" will keep away sickness, ensure prosperity, and even protect soldier converts from Viet Cong bullets. Poverty is seen as a result of imperfect faith: the Good Life is a proper reward for believers.
Most of Wierwille's converts come from just that Good Life: comfortable middle-or upper-class families in predominantly white suburbs. Sometimes parents have followed their youngsters into the fold. Although Wierwille founded his research center in 1953, the movement around it has started to grow only in the past few years.
He keeps no records and gives only the vaguest estimate of the number of his followers—"5,000, maybe 10,000," in "most" states and "nine, twelve, 15 countries."
There is a vigorous chapter in Wichita, Kans., and strong groups in Rye, N.Y., and in Mill Valley, Calif.—which are called The Way East and The Way West. All conduct meetings where they listen to Wierwille's recorded words and offer extemporaneous prayers. Attendance is also good at the sermons that Wierwille delivers in person at New Knoxville. His brother Harry, 64, the treasurer of the center, claims that Sunday services take in as much as $10,000 a night. The money, say the Wierwilles, is being used for a $3,000,000 building program to expand The Way still further.
=============
Does this sound like a man "impacting" mainstream Christianity?
It might-if the word "impacting" means "a tooth that never reaches its proper position",
and he's a tooth. Then he never reached his proper postion in mainstream Christianity.
What he SOUNDS like here is a crank that has somewhere under 10,000 followers.
Jim Jones had similar numbers.
Actually, Jim Jones has had more of an impact. People have HEARD of Jim Jones.
No I don't excuse his acts WW, I thought I made that pretty clear, neither do I use them as an excuse to allow myself to become a 'tiddlywinks' Christian.
Must have been 'mere coincidence' that what VP took from everywhere else WAS/IS scintillatingly close to the purportedly 'original God breathed Word' ??!!
IMO (of course) !!
...or what Wierwille said was the "original"...
Allan...drink some more coffee before you post again!
I tend to think VPW had a negative impact on Christianity – because his teachings took the focus off Jesus Christ…um…"Christ" is a NECESSARY part of Christianity…After reading that Time Magazine article – two things came to mind: 1. Remembering how VPW exalted the Church Epistles way above the Old Testament and especially the Gospels. 2. The words of Jesus Christ in Luke 6:46 "And why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"
…And really - - to do the things our Lord said – I think it would be helpful to read the Gospels – wow, there's lots of stuff He said in there!
No I don't excuse his acts WW, I thought I made that pretty clear, neither do I use them as an excuse to allow myself to become a 'tiddlywinks' Christian.
Actually, what I asked was if HE gets a free pass DESPITE evil acts because
he's done so much good, in your opinion.
I believe you've meant to say an unquestionable "no" this time, so I'll take
it as such.
You've introduced a new Allan-specific expression.
What is a "tiddlywinks Christian" supposed to mean?
I'd guess it's some kind of insult, based primarily on a blanket accusation
of some Christians who hold a position the speaker disagrees with,
but rather than guess, I'd prefer you explain it in plain English.
"vpw's original class was NOT original. It was BG Leonard's class with vpw's name on it.
vpw took BG Leonard's class (June 28-July 15, 1953.)
October 1953, vpw told BG Leonard he wanted to teach Leonard's class locally
on a one-time basis. LEONARD's class, as he told Leonard.
Leonard agreed.
vpw ran the class, and sent Leonard a photograph of Leonard's class, which sits
in Leonard's photo album to this very day.
What vpw told the STUDENTS was that this was vpw's class on
"RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT TODAY". (Later changed to pfal.)
NO mention of Leonard or Leonard's class.
Even if it's not obvious to you that there would be no time to completely change
Leonard's class, the testimony of those who had sat thru Leonard's class and
THEN vpw's class might mean something.
vpw counted those who had taken Leonard's class in the June 28-July 15 class
as ALREADY GRADS of the "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" class.
Therefore, vpw, by several measures, called them
the same class with 2 different names.
Therefore, vpw did not "put it together."
He put his own name on Leonard's class."
==========
WhatTheHey:
"1. I don't believe you (except perhaps a STUDENT of that first 1953 class) can say with authority exactly what VPW taught on Receiving the Holy Spirit in that class. Even then, I would have plenty of reason to doubt what one of those students said. Why? Because if any of those students of that first class are still around today they would be older than I - likely in their 60's or perhaps their 70's by now. By the time a person gets that age it's doubtful one recalls with any clarity what happened in their teen's or 20's. If you contacted any of those students who first took the first PFAL class in 1953, then you're ahead of me there. But I wouldn't trust a 60 or 70 year olds recollection of what was taught in a bible class when they were a teenager (or perhaps slightly older) they took in 1953. VPW readily admits that B.G. Leonard taught him about healing and other aspects of the Holy Spirit field. He also admits it was George M. Lamsa that introduced him to Aramaic, the language of the original texts and that it was J.E. Stiles a pastor that led him into SIT. There is no "mystery" there on any of those things.
2. The PFAL class didn't become the focus of TWI's outreach until 1956. It was in Van Wert where VPW published the first edition of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. He also wrote numerous booklets, pamphlets and monographs which during those years laid the groundwork for over 400 magazine and newspaper aticles and eleven major Biblical research works. It wouldn't surprise me if many things changed from what was originally taught in that first class up until the PFAL class being TWI's focus of outreach in 1956."
=============
WordWolf replies now:
One constant I can always count on is finding errors in logic or factual errors in WTH's posts.
One can almost look forward to it.
WTH's personal idea of what twi history is like seems unable to accomodate what actually
happened and was reported reliably.
First of all, the exact dates of the classes that vpw took under BG Leonard
can be found in Leonard's records AND twi's records.
They were reported back in 1971, and printed in "the Way:Living in Love",
which is much earlier than WTH imagines the reports were done.
The EXACT dates were reported in Mrs W's book later. The dates were EXACT
because the writer used twi's records to get the EXACT dates.
("Born Again to Serve.")
That vpw's class was first run a few months after Leonard's class is documented
in both books.
That vpw told Leonard it was Leonard's class and only one-time, is in Leonard's
records. One of our posters heard Leonard explain it, and saw the photo.
(Leonard's mistake was ever trusting vpw.)
That the class vpw taught was told this was vpw's class-and not Leonard's class,
I would think is self-evident-- vpw went out of his way to keep from mentioning
Leonard and Stiles when it was natural (and legally-required) to have done so.
Leonard's name NEVER appeared in those classes. That's why nobody rather
obviously ever sought out Leonard in those early days. Further, Leonard
later found out that vpw was running Leonard's class and never crediting Leonard,
which defrauded the students AND Leonard. That's why Leonard added elaborate
copyright notices to his books- he encountered ONE felonious Christian who stole
his work and taught it in an inferior fashion, and used it as both his marketed
product AND his indoctrination tool. In short, everybody's documentation all
agrees- vpw never mentioned Leonard's name to that class. Mrs W went out of
her way to not lie in her account, yet not say anything bad about vpw.
She's the ONLY one in twi history who ever gave Leonard anything approaching
proper credit- and she never mentioned word one about Leonard getting even a
passing reference in "vpw's class."
Finally,
vpw HIMSELF considered all the people who took Leonard's class to AUTOMATICALLY
be grads of the vpw class. Therefore, vpw HIMSELF acknowledged, albeit indirectly-
that the material was identical. That it had little choice BUT to be identical is
obvious from the timeframe. vpw barely had time to crash-course on Leonard's
class and keep rereading Leonard's books, before his own class ran.
(Three months to START preparing material for a class is a joke. It takes weeks
to prepare the material for even a single session. He had NO TIME to originate
ANYTHING.) Therefore, those closest to him never had to take his class "for the
first time", since they went to Leonard's class.
(That's 3 carloads of people, BTW.)
Those people you're accusing of making that up are those who were closest to him,
and you're claiming Mrs W lied AND that twi's records were consulted and lies
deliberately placed in her book.
Or, maybe all of that was true, and Mrs W didn't lie, and their records didn't lie,
and her book didn't lie. Of course, that means what WTH WANTS to believe
isn't true. For WTH, that's sufficient reason to refuse to consider that possibility.
(Old news.)
=============
What else appeared in WTH's version of history?
Oh, yes...
"VPW readily admits that B.G. Leonard taught him about healing and other aspects of the Holy Spirit field. He also admits it was George M. Lamsa that introduced him to Aramaic, the language of the original texts and that it was J.E. Stiles a pastor that led him into SIT. There is no "mystery" there on any of those things."
============
What did vpw himself say about BG Leonard?
" But he worked from personal experiences. I worked what he taught from the accuracy of the Scriptures."
As to "readily admits", you have to dig deep into TW:LiL to even FIND Leonard's name.
You NEVER hear it mentioned in the taped classes, NEVER in the books.
As to Aramaic being "the language of the original texts",
you really need to get some education.
There's a possible case for some of the Gospels being first in Aramaic.
As for the Epistles, there's NO evidence for them originating in a language other than Greek.
As to Stiles, vpw went out of his way to delete his name and even references to him.
His name is buried in "TW:LiL". vpw intentionally took the entire contents of Stiles' book
and reprinted it under his own name. In the first 2 editions, he mentions that an anonymous Christian
taught him (Stiles) this material, but never mentions Stiles by name.
From the 3rd edition on, even this much is removed.
That is what some people would call a "mystery"-
a shadowed figure teaches him, and all records of him vanish.
As to Leonard having taught the original foundational class, his name appears nowhere IN the class,
not even in a single footnote in the Orange Book.
===============
What else did WTH imagine?
"The PFAL class didn't become the focus of TWI's outreach until 1956. It was in Van Wert where VPW published the first edition of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. He also wrote numerous booklets, pamphlets and monographs which during those years laid the groundwork for over 400 magazine and newspaper aticles and eleven major Biblical research works. It wouldn't surprise me if many things changed from what was originally taught in that first class up until the PFAL class being TWI's focus of outreach in 1956."
Actually, pfal was the focus from 1953 on. As vpw gets more practice with it, he makes it more important.
He had a class-Leonard's, and a textbook- Stiles', and now he marketed his 'product'.
As for what else he "wrote", lots of it's been shown to have been lifted from other Christians like
Kenyon, and some of THAT was incorporated into the collaterals. Most of what he worked on then
was incorporated into the collaterals, which meant they were sold to the grads. pfal became a
marketed product, and so did its "accessories". This thing of him studying diligently and independently
producing a stack of monographs makes for a pretty fiction, but fails to match the history.
The only reason he didn't teach pfal back-to-back in 1954, 1955, was that he had no DEMAND to do so.
Why would he run a class with ONE STUDENT? He wanted to teach to a FULL ROOM.
It wasn't until he hijacked the hippies that he started having full rooms after the first class.
I know, WTH doesn't want to see it that way, even if the pfal histories THEMSELVES agree with this.
It's not my job, neither is it within my power, to get him to see things as they ARE or WERE
rather than how he wishes to see them.
Perhaps he will voluntarily look at the evidence and make some changes.
I can lay it out, and the "arguments", and the rest is up to him. (And God.)
Gee, all the revivals I've ever heard about always had local people to connect to RIGHT THERE
onsite AND doing followups.
Guess NZ revivals aren't as well-organized.
WW, as far as all my experience has been (and growing up a Southern Baptist in the Bible Belt, there's lots of experience to talk about) there are local people at the revivals to help anyone there. In fact, I volunteered at bunches of them myself. We also travelled out of town to perform and help at some of the larger meetings. At those, there are usually people from many churches (and religions) representing many areas because of so many people coming to those things from our cities. It was very well organized, publicized and a great time.
But, as I remember it, vee pee is the one who first made the claim that revivals didn't have anyone for people to connect with. He was slamming Billy Graham during one of the PFAL classes, I think. At the time I knew that was b.s. but figured he just didn't know any better or that things had changed since his day since the tapes were so old. Besides that, it was on video and the man was long dead by the time I took the class. Sounds like yet another parrot quoting a sleazy snake oil salesmen without having any facts to back up the claim. <_<
An article in any magazine (except possibly a cover-story in "Christianity Today") is NO guarantee
that mainstream Christianity has even HEARD of you, even as a footnote.
And the article may make you sound even worse.
Case in point....
=============
Does this sound like a man "impacting" mainstream Christianity?
It might-if the word "impacting" means "a tooth that never reaches its proper position",
and he's a tooth. Then he never reached his proper postion in mainstream Christianity.
What he SOUNDS like here is a crank that has somewhere under 10,000 followers.
Jim Jones had similar numbers.
Actually, Jim Jones has had more of an impact. People have HEARD of Jim Jones.
ROFLMAOPIMP!!!
LOL!!
MAKE IT STOP!!!MY SIDES HURT FROM LAUGHING!!!
HA HA HA HA!!!
TWI IMPACTING MAIN STREAM CHRISTIANITY???
TWI MAKING SO MUCH AS A RIPPLE IN SOCIETY????
OMG!! YO, I'M DYIN' OVAH HEAH!
Surely you jest!
This quote from the opening paragraph makes it perfectly clear that they are NOT endorsing TWI. In fact, it seems more like a warning to me.
But some so-called Jesus freaks really subscribe to exotic creeds all their own that to orthodox Christians are close to what used to be called heresy. And not only to traditional churchmen: even many inside the movement look suspiciously on these fellow travelers with Jesus as distorters of the true Gospel. Two such eccentric groups are The Way and The Process:
Anyone ever heard of The Process? Are they still around? I've never heard of them till now, but since they were in a Time Magazine, surely they must have made a huge impact on Christianity, right? :unsure: How many of you have heard of them? What kind of impact do you know of them making?
*snort* Sorry, I just can't quit laughing at that audacious claim!! LOL! TWI making an impact on Christianity.... ROFLMAO!! I'll have to come back when I can type without having to stop and finish giggling and shaking with all this laughing....
Hey Belle...for someone who was 'heavily involved' helping a bunch of people from southern baptist revival meetings, something made you 'jump ship' ??!! Something 'impacted' young miss Belle.
Your post in itself lends credence to the fact VP WAS having some sort of 'impact' on mainstream Christianity !!
One constant I can always count on is finding errors in logic or factual errors in WTH's posts.
One can almost look forward to it.
WTH's personal idea of what twi history is like seems unable to accomodate what actually
happened and was reported reliably.
First of all, the exact dates of the classes that vpw took under BG Leonard
can be found in Leonard's records AND twi's records.
They were reported back in 1971, and printed in "the Way:Living in Love",
which is much earlier than WTH imagines the reports were done.
The EXACT dates were reported in Mrs W's book later. The dates were EXACT
because the writer used twi's records to get the EXACT dates.
("Born Again to Serve.")
That vpw's class was first run a few months after Leonard's class is documented
in both books.
Okay, I went to the attic and pulled out Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve. The following is the twi documentation of what WordWolf stated:
(p. 90) "Ever since the Divine Healing Convention in Tulsa in December 1951, and since Rev. B.G. Leonard prayed with us for Mary's healing over the phone in December 1952, Dr. Wierwille's hunger for more knowledge about God's healing power was piqued. In late winter, February 1953, Dr. Wierwille felt the need to spend time with B.G. Leonard." [in talking with B.G. Leonard on the phone, Dr. Wierwille found out that B.G. was teaching a class.....so vpw immediately got a ticket to Calgary, Alberta and talked his way into B.G.'s class that was in progress.]
Note:.......in Mrs. W's book, there is a picture of this February 1953 class. The seven new students, vpw included, are pictured with Rev. Leonard seated in the middle of the front row.
(p. 91) "In June of 1953, four months after Dr. Wierwille's initial trip, our family traveled with two other carloads of our friends to Calgary to take B.G. Leonard's class which he called The Gifts of the Spirit. At his Christian Training Centre, a large upstairs room over the pawnshop, our son Don and I (Mrs. W.) were students of this class from June 28 to July 15. Dr. Wierwille was with us, but of course he was not a new student, though he wanted to sit through the class again (AGAIN.....emphasis added) because what B.G. Leonard was teaching was so thrilling and powerful about the 'gifts' of holy spirit and about spiritual healing."
Note:......in Mrs. W's book, there is a picture of this June/July 1953 class. Mrs. W. and Don, along with nine others from Van Wert were new students, and pictured in this class photo that consisted of 25 new students. Vpw was NOT in this photo....since he was NOT a new student of this class.
(p. 99) "In October 1953, Dr. Wierwille taught the first Power for Abundant Living class, which was held in the basement of St. Peter's Church. The first two classes were called 'Receiving the Holy Spirit Today.' The name was then changed to the broader title that fit better with the entire scope of what the class covers. Also, 'Power for Abundant Living' would have a greater and broader appeal to people, especially to those not from religious backgrounds."
(p. 99) "There were no charts, no books, no syllabus, just the Bible and a chalkboard (for this class)."
(p. 100) "The people who had been part of B.G. Leonard's class on 'The Gifts of the Spirit' were considered graduates and not included in the rosters of Dr. Wierwille's classes."
There's the TWI DOCUMENTATION..............it was Leonard's material.
Yeah..........years later, after he found Bullinger's research and added it to Leonard's foundation.
Hmmm.......I see a pattern here. Sure lays bare the claim that veepee taught ORIGINAL WORK that hadn't been known since the first century. Even the twi published works help us to track his learning from OTHER MEN'S MINISTRIES.....and expose veepee in one big fat lie.
It is okay to ignore those not of your faith in times of need since they are outside of the "household"
If you lose your job and your family becomes impoverished that is because you are not obeying God
If a drunk driver hits and kills your child-is it is because of your negative believing and only because of your negative believing
I ask because if you believe the above then you are a follower of VPW
If you only partially believe it even rejected the items above then you are just like the majority of the rest of us at GSC, no longer a follower because for whatever reason you find VPW's teachings to be fallacious
I think I've stated before Mo...your 'stance' on these things is really of little interest to me.You are a mormon who follows the 'Joseph Smith version' of the snow on the gas pumps.
And 'no' to all of your questions above ! BUT...I am a follower of a GREAT deal of what VP taught.
Allen, Stop dragging out the fact I am LDS everytime I ask you a question the answer to which you don't like or you don't have. This is about VPW please let us stay there-
My point is that despite all your pronouncements and posturing, the reality is that you don't believe VPW was telling the truth either
People who do are still in TWI and believe the above
The reality is that you know that he plain fabricated the beliefs that are outlined above.
The reality is that VPW was not told by God ,or inspired by God, where things of a spiritual nature were concerned --instead he borrowed, extrapolated and just plain fabricated.
Or to put it another way--if God was doing the inspiring and VPW was following said inspiration-do you really think he would have needed Leonard or anyone else?
or even more to the point would God have inspired him incorrectly???
No I don't excuse his acts WW, I thought I made that pretty clear, neither do I use them as an excuse to allow myself to become a 'tiddlywinks' Christian.
Just have to say--this comment right here should cause ex ways who are thinking about getting involved in an exway ministry a pause for thought.
Do you really want to be part of a group that dispises other Christians? Isn't that just a hop away from those same leaders dispising you, if you don't toe their line?
Is "tiddlywinks" the new way of saying "egg sucking"? Must be that Narcisstic Personality Disorder that keeps people from seeing that they have become that which they supposedly despise.
Mo, I can't remember the term, but it's one of the dodges that WW talks about. When someone can't answer or argue a point made, they attack the messenger instead of responding intelligently to the actual question at hand.
I tend to think VPW had a negative impact on Christianity – because his teachings took the focus off Jesus Christ…um…"Christ" is a NECESSARY part of Christianity…After reading that Time Magazine article – two things came to mind: 1. Remembering how VPW exalted the Church Epistles way above the Old Testament and especially the Gospels. 2. The words of Jesus Christ in Luke 6:46 "And why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"
…And really - - to do the things our Lord said – I think it would be helpful to read the Gospels – wow, there's lots of stuff He said in there!
Good points T-Bone. Also -- if I can add this --- docvic never impacted *mainstream* Christianity,
though he certainly impacted individuals seeking spirituality.
I never did see droves of Assembly of God, Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, or Presbyterians
(alphabetical order -- NOT mentioned in *order of preference*), ;)
leaving their *mother churches*, and signing the green card.
Granted some did, but (imo) the most that *signed on the line*, were those who were looking.
And most of those looking, were younger folks that had no church affiliation.
Kinda like myself --- fer instance. No *official* affiliation -- but looking for *something*.
So I disagree that he had any sort of influence on mainstream Christianity.
And --- What the Hey --- You made a comment about Leonard's class.
Said something to the effect that it never would have gotten the attention that pfal did.
(Or was it Allan that said it?? Here's the quote ---)
As someone said before, literally tens of thousands got to hear this 'angle' on the word and that very likely would not have happened under Leonards ministry.
B.G. ran his class in Calgary, Alberta right???
(That's in Canada -- eh???)
Where was docvic, when he heard of it????
Right -- in Ohio.
(That's the mid-west U.S.A. --- eh???)
Where did docvic leave from, and where did he go to, to take this class??
Right -- he left from Ohio, (USA) and traveled all the way to Calgary, Alberta (Canada).
(Did I mention that Calgary is in Canada -----eh????)
Now -- me in my ignorance, can't say for sure how far Calgary, Alberta is from NK, Ohio --
but I can definitavely say "It's a fur piece of a ways away"!
Coupla thousand miles??
(Allan -- I'm not up on the metric system -- you have to convert to Kilometers on yer own here.) ;)
And what was the year??? 1953?? Travel wasn't *super-sized* like it is today.
Nor were communications on any internet highway (like today).
Point being --
SOMEHOW DOCVIC HAD HEARD OF B.G. LEONARD'S CLASS ---
ALL THE WAY DOWN IN OHIO,
(and here's the quote about Leonard's class again --- )
As someone said before, literally tens of thousands got to hear this 'angle' on the word and that very likely would not have happened under Leonard's ministry.
Quoting that one guy from M*A*S*H (I forget his *screen* name) ---
HORSE HOCKEY!!!
Somehow Leonard's class was well enough known, that docvic heard of it thousands of miles away.
In that day and time, that would have been a feat. Guess there WAS a *Prevailing Word* back then.
No *clicking on links* back then. Word of mouth prevailed.
It must've made it's way honestly into the fabric that *searchers* were looking at. and trying on.
Docvic stole B.G. Leonard's class, Bullinger's work, and J.E. Stile's works just like he stole
the legitimate ministries of Jim Doop, and Heefner.
So --- you can say what you wish, and maybe even feel good about it.
T'is your right. God bless, and have at it.
Docvic is the modern day ecclesiastical Robin Hood.
Now answer one of my questions...do you think Joseph Smith was any more spiritual than VP ??!! Take off your mormon tinted glasses for a minute !
What VP taught was/is way more believable than (your man of God) IMO
Belle...you must have skipped my question...why did you jump ship from your 'heavily involved' southern baptist church ?? What made twi more appealing ??
David... the numbers of twi'ers at the height of VPs' ministry would have included MANY from previous denominations, just having gs posters as a synopsis of these former twi'ers gives some insight.
Catholics, mormons, baptists, you name it, all knocked on the door of twi instituition at some point.
At the height of it, twi (maybe) had more than Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer etc..put together.
Thats some impact.
As for VP 'stealing' the works of other men ?? As someone said before, how can one 'steal' the Bible ??
No more than one can accuse Joseph Smith of stealing the works of the freemasons, spiritualist churches etc..ay Mo.!
Post your answers down in doctrinal if you like Mo, I thought it was a simple question, no need to 'dodge it'.
In answer to YOUR question Mo...no, why would God repeat this wonderful revelation over and over again to differn't people. Maybe God knew in His 'foreknowledge' that VP would be the one to 'stick his neck on the line' and run with it. Does Leonard, Bullinger still have their classes going ?
I know this revelation is still 'moving' through various 'splinter groups' and is only going to get bigger
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And since TWIItes who remain true to the "the Word" are in fact remaing true to the Intrepratation of the Word by VPW and LCM --you lknow PI--that makes them Quitters as far as following GOD
Thanks for clarifying that point
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WordWolf
Thanks kindly. It's been a few years since I last read this.
I miss the accompanying pic-of vpw on a tourbike- but this is just fine.
================
Fellow Traveling with Jesus
Posted Monday, Sep. 6, 1971
The Jesus Revolution (TIME, June 23) includes preachers of hellfire and promoters of love, fundamentalist Christians, mainstream Protestants, and even some Roman Catholics. Most, however, at least share a common belief in the basic tenets of Christianity: the triune nature of God, the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Gospels as the cornerstone of faith. But some so-called Jesus freaks really subscribe to exotic creeds all their own that to orthodox Christians are close to what used to be called heresy. And not only to traditional churchmen: even many inside the movement look suspiciously on these fellow travelers with Jesus as distorters of the true Gospel. Two such eccentric groups are The Way and The Process:
The Way
Externally, The Way looks like any other branch of the Jesus movement: its adherents are mostly bright-eyed, smiling teenagers, ecstatically exchanging "Bless yous," telling of drug cures, perpetually thumbing their Bibles. There is also the ubiquitous music drumming across Gospel messages, sometimes to the beat of hard rock. In mid-August, more than a thousand young followers descended on The Way Biblical Research Center in New Knoxville, Ohio (pop. 850), for a weekend of spiritual study almost continuously backgrounded by rock. Musical groups of Way believers with names like The Dove, Cookin' Mama, and one from Long Island called Pressed Down, Shaken Together & Running Over, belted out the sounds.
But it is The Way's message, not its music, that is offbeat. That message is preached by the movement's founder, Victor Paul Wierwille, 54, a trim, tanned, fast-talking six-footer who likes to wear Western-cut suits with a scarf around his neck and tool around the countryside on a big Harley-Davidson. A former minister of the United Church of Christ who has studied both at the University of Chicago Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, Wierwille is now a crackerbarrel theological promoter who grandiosely claims to have done the only "pure and correct" interpretation of the Bible since the First Century. He has been working on his theology for about 25 years, ever since he shucked his academic background by burning more than 1,000 religious books "to clean myself out" before starting his own research.
Wierwille argues that the Bible as a whole is not relevant to all people of all times. Every word of Scripture is equally inspired by God, he says, but different books were addressed to different audiences. The Old Testament and the Four Gospels are for the Jews and Gentiles; the rest of the New Testament is for the "Church of God" of "born-again believers." But Wierwille and his Wayfarers concentrate mainly on the nine Epistles of St. Paul to the early churches, especially the letter to the Ephesians, which, he insists, distills nearly everything important in the Word of God.
Wierwille dismisses the doctrine of the Trinity as a throwback to paganism, because it proposes, he says, "three Gods." To him, Jesus is "the Son of God," but not God the Son. "You show me one place in the Bible where it says he is God," Wierwille thunders. "I don't want your rapping, your doubletalk, your tripletalk; all I want is Scripture." And the Holy Spirit, says Wierwille, is just a synonym for God. Wierwille's theology is propounded in pamphlets, a magazine, and books, but mainly in a filmed and taped "foundation course," into which he has unloaded 36 hours of rambling, folksy lectures on the Bible. The title of the course—which costs $65 per head: "Power for Abundant Living." Carrying Norman Vincent Peale's pious optimism a good bit further, Wierwille promises that right "believing" will keep away sickness, ensure prosperity, and even protect soldier converts from Viet Cong bullets. Poverty is seen as a result of imperfect faith: the Good Life is a proper reward for believers.
Most of Wierwille's converts come from just that Good Life: comfortable middle-or upper-class families in predominantly white suburbs. Sometimes parents have followed their youngsters into the fold. Although Wierwille founded his research center in 1953, the movement around it has started to grow only in the past few years. He keeps no records and gives only the vaguest estimate of the number of his followers—"5,000, maybe 10,000," in "most" states and "nine, twelve, 15 countries." There is a vigorous chapter in Wichita, Kans., and strong groups in Rye, N.Y., and in Mill Valley, Calif.—which are called The Way East and The Way West. All conduct meetings where they listen to Wierwille's recorded words and offer extemporaneous prayers. Attendance is also good at the sermons that Wierwille delivers in person at New Knoxville. His brother Harry, 64, the treasurer of the center, claims that Sunday services take in as much as $10,000 a night. The money, say the Wierwilles, is being used for a $3,000,000 building program to expand The Way still further.
=============
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WordWolf
Gee, all the revivals I've ever heard about always had local people to connect to RIGHT THERE
onsite AND doing followups.
Guess NZ revivals aren't as well-organized.
Or was that a guess on your part?
Does he get excused for committing evil acts BECAUSE he taught some good stuff,and, in your opinion, did some good stuff?
Some say 'yes', some say 'no'. What saith Allan?
An article in any magazine (except possibly a cover-story in "Christianity Today") is NO guarantee
that mainstream Christianity has even HEARD of you, even as a footnote.
And the article may make you sound even worse.
Case in point....
======================
======================
======================
Time magazine article here Sep 6th 1971
================
Fellow Traveling with Jesus
Posted Monday, Sep. 6, 1971
The Jesus Revolution (TIME, June 23) includes preachers of hellfire and promoters of love, fundamentalist Christians, mainstream Protestants, and even some Roman Catholics. Most, however, at least share a common belief in the basic tenets of Christianity: the triune nature of God, the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Gospels as the cornerstone of faith. But some so-called Jesus freaks really subscribe to exotic creeds all their own that to orthodox Christians are close to what used to be called heresy. And not only to traditional churchmen: even many inside the movement look suspiciously on these fellow travelers with Jesus as distorters of the true Gospel. Two such eccentric groups are The Way and The Process:
-------------
The Way
Externally, The Way looks like any other branch of the Jesus movement: its adherents are mostly bright-eyed, smiling teenagers, ecstatically exchanging "Bless yous," telling of drug cures, perpetually thumbing their Bibles. There is also the ubiquitous music drumming across Gospel messages, sometimes to the beat of hard rock. In mid-August, more than a thousand young followers descended on The Way Biblical Research Center in New Knoxville, Ohio (pop. 850), for a weekend of spiritual study almost continuously backgrounded by rock. Musical groups of Way believers with names like The Dove, Cookin' Mama, and one from Long Island called Pressed Down, Shaken Together & Running Over, belted out the sounds.
But it is The Way's message, not its music, that is offbeat. That message is preached by the movement's founder, Victor Paul Wierwille, 54, a trim, tanned, fast-talking six-footer who likes to wear Western-cut suits with a scarf around his neck and tool around the countryside on a big Harley-Davidson. A former minister of the United Church of Christ who has studied both at the University of Chicago Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, Wierwille is now a
crackerbarrel theological promoter who grandiosely claims to have done the only "pure and correct" interpretation of the Bible since the First Century.
He has been working on his theology for about 25 years, ever since he shucked his academic background by burning more than 1,000 religious books "to clean myself out" before starting his own research.
Wierwille argues that the Bible as a whole is not relevant to all people of all times. Every word of Scripture is equally inspired by God, he says, but different books were addressed to different audiences. The Old Testament and the Four Gospels are for the Jews and Gentiles; the rest of the New Testament is for the "Church of God" of "born-again believers." But Wierwille and his Wayfarers concentrate mainly on the nine Epistles of St. Paul to the early churches, especially the letter to the Ephesians, which, he insists, distills nearly everything important in the Word of God.
Wierwille dismisses the doctrine of the Trinity as a throwback to paganism, because it proposes, he says, "three Gods." To him, Jesus is "the Son of God," but not God the Son. "You show me one place in the Bible where it says he is God," Wierwille thunders.
"I don't want your rapping, your doubletalk, your tripletalk; all I want is Scripture."
And the Holy Spirit, says Wierwille, is just a synonym for God. Wierwille's theology is propounded in pamphlets, a magazine, and books, but mainly in a filmed and taped "foundation course," into which he has
unloaded 36 hours of rambling, folksy lectures on the Bible. The title of the course—which costs $65 per head: "Power for Abundant Living." Carrying Norman Vincent Peale's pious optimism a good bit further, Wierwille promises that right "believing" will keep away sickness, ensure prosperity, and even protect soldier converts from Viet Cong bullets. Poverty is seen as a result of imperfect faith: the Good Life is a proper reward for believers.
Most of Wierwille's converts come from just that Good Life: comfortable middle-or upper-class families in predominantly white suburbs. Sometimes parents have followed their youngsters into the fold. Although Wierwille founded his research center in 1953, the movement around it has started to grow only in the past few years.
He keeps no records and gives only the vaguest estimate of the number of his followers—"5,000, maybe 10,000," in "most" states and "nine, twelve, 15 countries."
There is a vigorous chapter in Wichita, Kans., and strong groups in Rye, N.Y., and in Mill Valley, Calif.—which are called The Way East and The Way West. All conduct meetings where they listen to Wierwille's recorded words and offer extemporaneous prayers. Attendance is also good at the sermons that Wierwille delivers in person at New Knoxville. His brother Harry, 64, the treasurer of the center, claims that Sunday services take in as much as $10,000 a night. The money, say the Wierwilles, is being used for a $3,000,000 building program to expand The Way still further.
=============
Does this sound like a man "impacting" mainstream Christianity?
It might-if the word "impacting" means "a tooth that never reaches its proper position",
and he's a tooth. Then he never reached his proper postion in mainstream Christianity.
What he SOUNDS like here is a crank that has somewhere under 10,000 followers.
Jim Jones had similar numbers.
Actually, Jim Jones has had more of an impact. People have HEARD of Jim Jones.
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allan w.
No I don't excuse his acts WW, I thought I made that pretty clear, neither do I use them as an excuse to allow myself to become a 'tiddlywinks' Christian.
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Oakspear
Allan...drink some more coffee before you post again!
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T-Bone
I tend to think VPW had a negative impact on Christianity – because his teachings took the focus off Jesus Christ…um…"Christ" is a NECESSARY part of Christianity…After reading that Time Magazine article – two things came to mind: 1. Remembering how VPW exalted the Church Epistles way above the Old Testament and especially the Gospels. 2. The words of Jesus Christ in Luke 6:46 "And why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"
…And really - - to do the things our Lord said – I think it would be helpful to read the Gospels – wow, there's lots of stuff He said in there!
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bliss
…"Christ" is a NECESSARY part of Christianity"
A M E N !!!!
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WordWolf
Actually, what I asked was if HE gets a free pass DESPITE evil acts because
he's done so much good, in your opinion.
I believe you've meant to say an unquestionable "no" this time, so I'll take
it as such.
You've introduced a new Allan-specific expression.
What is a "tiddlywinks Christian" supposed to mean?
I'd guess it's some kind of insult, based primarily on a blanket accusation
of some Christians who hold a position the speaker disagrees with,
but rather than guess, I'd prefer you explain it in plain English.
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WordWolf
WordWolf:
"vpw's original class was NOT original. It was BG Leonard's class with vpw's name on it.
vpw took BG Leonard's class (June 28-July 15, 1953.)
October 1953, vpw told BG Leonard he wanted to teach Leonard's class locally
on a one-time basis. LEONARD's class, as he told Leonard.
Leonard agreed.
vpw ran the class, and sent Leonard a photograph of Leonard's class, which sits
in Leonard's photo album to this very day.
What vpw told the STUDENTS was that this was vpw's class on
"RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT TODAY". (Later changed to pfal.)
NO mention of Leonard or Leonard's class.
Even if it's not obvious to you that there would be no time to completely change
Leonard's class, the testimony of those who had sat thru Leonard's class and
THEN vpw's class might mean something.
vpw counted those who had taken Leonard's class in the June 28-July 15 class
as ALREADY GRADS of the "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" class.
Therefore, vpw, by several measures, called them
the same class with 2 different names.
Therefore, vpw did not "put it together."
He put his own name on Leonard's class."
==========
WhatTheHey:
"1. I don't believe you (except perhaps a STUDENT of that first 1953 class) can say with authority exactly what VPW taught on Receiving the Holy Spirit in that class. Even then, I would have plenty of reason to doubt what one of those students said. Why? Because if any of those students of that first class are still around today they would be older than I - likely in their 60's or perhaps their 70's by now. By the time a person gets that age it's doubtful one recalls with any clarity what happened in their teen's or 20's. If you contacted any of those students who first took the first PFAL class in 1953, then you're ahead of me there. But I wouldn't trust a 60 or 70 year olds recollection of what was taught in a bible class when they were a teenager (or perhaps slightly older) they took in 1953. VPW readily admits that B.G. Leonard taught him about healing and other aspects of the Holy Spirit field. He also admits it was George M. Lamsa that introduced him to Aramaic, the language of the original texts and that it was J.E. Stiles a pastor that led him into SIT. There is no "mystery" there on any of those things.
2. The PFAL class didn't become the focus of TWI's outreach until 1956. It was in Van Wert where VPW published the first edition of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. He also wrote numerous booklets, pamphlets and monographs which during those years laid the groundwork for over 400 magazine and newspaper aticles and eleven major Biblical research works. It wouldn't surprise me if many things changed from what was originally taught in that first class up until the PFAL class being TWI's focus of outreach in 1956."
=============
WordWolf replies now:
One constant I can always count on is finding errors in logic or factual errors in WTH's posts.
One can almost look forward to it.
WTH's personal idea of what twi history is like seems unable to accomodate what actually
happened and was reported reliably.
First of all, the exact dates of the classes that vpw took under BG Leonard
can be found in Leonard's records AND twi's records.
They were reported back in 1971, and printed in "the Way:Living in Love",
which is much earlier than WTH imagines the reports were done.
The EXACT dates were reported in Mrs W's book later. The dates were EXACT
because the writer used twi's records to get the EXACT dates.
("Born Again to Serve.")
That vpw's class was first run a few months after Leonard's class is documented
in both books.
That vpw told Leonard it was Leonard's class and only one-time, is in Leonard's
records. One of our posters heard Leonard explain it, and saw the photo.
(Leonard's mistake was ever trusting vpw.)
That the class vpw taught was told this was vpw's class-and not Leonard's class,
I would think is self-evident-- vpw went out of his way to keep from mentioning
Leonard and Stiles when it was natural (and legally-required) to have done so.
Leonard's name NEVER appeared in those classes. That's why nobody rather
obviously ever sought out Leonard in those early days. Further, Leonard
later found out that vpw was running Leonard's class and never crediting Leonard,
which defrauded the students AND Leonard. That's why Leonard added elaborate
copyright notices to his books- he encountered ONE felonious Christian who stole
his work and taught it in an inferior fashion, and used it as both his marketed
product AND his indoctrination tool. In short, everybody's documentation all
agrees- vpw never mentioned Leonard's name to that class. Mrs W went out of
her way to not lie in her account, yet not say anything bad about vpw.
She's the ONLY one in twi history who ever gave Leonard anything approaching
proper credit- and she never mentioned word one about Leonard getting even a
passing reference in "vpw's class."
Finally,
vpw HIMSELF considered all the people who took Leonard's class to AUTOMATICALLY
be grads of the vpw class. Therefore, vpw HIMSELF acknowledged, albeit indirectly-
that the material was identical. That it had little choice BUT to be identical is
obvious from the timeframe. vpw barely had time to crash-course on Leonard's
class and keep rereading Leonard's books, before his own class ran.
(Three months to START preparing material for a class is a joke. It takes weeks
to prepare the material for even a single session. He had NO TIME to originate
ANYTHING.) Therefore, those closest to him never had to take his class "for the
first time", since they went to Leonard's class.
(That's 3 carloads of people, BTW.)
Those people you're accusing of making that up are those who were closest to him,
and you're claiming Mrs W lied AND that twi's records were consulted and lies
deliberately placed in her book.
Or, maybe all of that was true, and Mrs W didn't lie, and their records didn't lie,
and her book didn't lie. Of course, that means what WTH WANTS to believe
isn't true. For WTH, that's sufficient reason to refuse to consider that possibility.
(Old news.)
=============
What else appeared in WTH's version of history?
Oh, yes...
"VPW readily admits that B.G. Leonard taught him about healing and other aspects of the Holy Spirit field. He also admits it was George M. Lamsa that introduced him to Aramaic, the language of the original texts and that it was J.E. Stiles a pastor that led him into SIT. There is no "mystery" there on any of those things."
============
What did vpw himself say about BG Leonard?
" But he worked from personal experiences. I worked what he taught from the accuracy of the Scriptures."
As to "readily admits", you have to dig deep into TW:LiL to even FIND Leonard's name.
You NEVER hear it mentioned in the taped classes, NEVER in the books.
As to Aramaic being "the language of the original texts",
you really need to get some education.
There's a possible case for some of the Gospels being first in Aramaic.
As for the Epistles, there's NO evidence for them originating in a language other than Greek.
As to Stiles, vpw went out of his way to delete his name and even references to him.
His name is buried in "TW:LiL". vpw intentionally took the entire contents of Stiles' book
and reprinted it under his own name. In the first 2 editions, he mentions that an anonymous Christian
taught him (Stiles) this material, but never mentions Stiles by name.
From the 3rd edition on, even this much is removed.
That is what some people would call a "mystery"-
a shadowed figure teaches him, and all records of him vanish.
As to Leonard having taught the original foundational class, his name appears nowhere IN the class,
not even in a single footnote in the Orange Book.
===============
What else did WTH imagine?
"The PFAL class didn't become the focus of TWI's outreach until 1956. It was in Van Wert where VPW published the first edition of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. He also wrote numerous booklets, pamphlets and monographs which during those years laid the groundwork for over 400 magazine and newspaper aticles and eleven major Biblical research works. It wouldn't surprise me if many things changed from what was originally taught in that first class up until the PFAL class being TWI's focus of outreach in 1956."
Actually, pfal was the focus from 1953 on. As vpw gets more practice with it, he makes it more important.
He had a class-Leonard's, and a textbook- Stiles', and now he marketed his 'product'.
As for what else he "wrote", lots of it's been shown to have been lifted from other Christians like
Kenyon, and some of THAT was incorporated into the collaterals. Most of what he worked on then
was incorporated into the collaterals, which meant they were sold to the grads. pfal became a
marketed product, and so did its "accessories". This thing of him studying diligently and independently
producing a stack of monographs makes for a pretty fiction, but fails to match the history.
The only reason he didn't teach pfal back-to-back in 1954, 1955, was that he had no DEMAND to do so.
Why would he run a class with ONE STUDENT? He wanted to teach to a FULL ROOM.
It wasn't until he hijacked the hippies that he started having full rooms after the first class.
I know, WTH doesn't want to see it that way, even if the pfal histories THEMSELVES agree with this.
It's not my job, neither is it within my power, to get him to see things as they ARE or WERE
rather than how he wishes to see them.
Perhaps he will voluntarily look at the evidence and make some changes.
I can lay it out, and the "arguments", and the rest is up to him. (And God.)
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Belle
WW, as far as all my experience has been (and growing up a Southern Baptist in the Bible Belt, there's lots of experience to talk about) there are local people at the revivals to help anyone there. In fact, I volunteered at bunches of them myself.
We also travelled out of town to perform and help at some of the larger meetings. At those, there are usually people from many churches (and religions) representing many areas because of so many people coming to those things from our cities. It was very well organized, publicized and a great time.
But, as I remember it, vee pee is the one who first made the claim that revivals didn't have anyone for people to connect with. He was slamming Billy Graham during one of the PFAL classes, I think. At the time I knew that was b.s. but figured he just didn't know any better or that things had changed since his day since the tapes were so old. Besides that, it was on video and the man was long dead by the time I took the class. Sounds like yet another parrot quoting a sleazy snake oil salesmen without having any facts to back up the claim. <_<
And the article may make you sound even worse.
Case in point....
=============
Does this sound like a man "impacting" mainstream Christianity?
It might-if the word "impacting" means "a tooth that never reaches its proper position",
and he's a tooth. Then he never reached his proper postion in mainstream Christianity.
What he SOUNDS like here is a crank that has somewhere under 10,000 followers.
Jim Jones had similar numbers.
Actually, Jim Jones has had more of an impact. People have HEARD of Jim Jones.
ROFLMAOPIMP!!!
LOL!!
MAKE IT STOP!!! MY SIDES HURT FROM LAUGHING!!!
HA HA HA HA!!!
TWI IMPACTING MAIN STREAM CHRISTIANITY???
TWI MAKING SO MUCH AS A RIPPLE IN SOCIETY????
OMG!! YO, I'M DYIN' OVAH HEAH!
Surely you jest!
This quote from the opening paragraph makes it perfectly clear that they are NOT endorsing TWI. In fact, it seems more like a warning to me.
Anyone ever heard of The Process? Are they still around? I've never heard of them till now, but since they were in a Time Magazine, surely they must have made a huge impact on Christianity, right? :unsure: How many of you have heard of them? What kind of impact do you know of them making?
*snort* Sorry, I just can't quit laughing at that audacious claim!! LOL! TWI making an impact on Christianity.... ROFLMAO!! I'll have to come back when I can type without having to stop and finish giggling and shaking with all this laughing....
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allan w.
Hey Belle...for someone who was 'heavily involved' helping a bunch of people from southern baptist revival meetings, something made you 'jump ship' ??!! Something 'impacted' young miss Belle.
Your post in itself lends credence to the fact VP WAS having some sort of 'impact' on mainstream Christianity !!
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skyrider
Okay, I went to the attic and pulled out Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve. The following is the twi documentation of what WordWolf stated:
(p. 90) "Ever since the Divine Healing Convention in Tulsa in December 1951, and since Rev. B.G. Leonard prayed with us for Mary's healing over the phone in December 1952, Dr. Wierwille's hunger for more knowledge about God's healing power was piqued. In late winter, February 1953, Dr. Wierwille felt the need to spend time with B.G. Leonard." [in talking with B.G. Leonard on the phone, Dr. Wierwille found out that B.G. was teaching a class.....so vpw immediately got a ticket to Calgary, Alberta and talked his way into B.G.'s class that was in progress.]
Note:.......in Mrs. W's book, there is a picture of this February 1953 class. The seven new students, vpw included, are pictured with Rev. Leonard seated in the middle of the front row.
(p. 91) "In June of 1953, four months after Dr. Wierwille's initial trip, our family traveled with two other carloads of our friends to Calgary to take B.G. Leonard's class which he called The Gifts of the Spirit. At his Christian Training Centre, a large upstairs room over the pawnshop, our son Don and I (Mrs. W.) were students of this class from June 28 to July 15. Dr. Wierwille was with us, but of course he was not a new student, though he wanted to sit through the class again (AGAIN.....emphasis added) because what B.G. Leonard was teaching was so thrilling and powerful about the 'gifts' of holy spirit and about spiritual healing."
Note:......in Mrs. W's book, there is a picture of this June/July 1953 class. Mrs. W. and Don, along with nine others from Van Wert were new students, and pictured in this class photo that consisted of 25 new students. Vpw was NOT in this photo....since he was NOT a new student of this class.
(p. 99) "In October 1953, Dr. Wierwille taught the first Power for Abundant Living class, which was held in the basement of St. Peter's Church. The first two classes were called 'Receiving the Holy Spirit Today.' The name was then changed to the broader title that fit better with the entire scope of what the class covers. Also, 'Power for Abundant Living' would have a greater and broader appeal to people, especially to those not from religious backgrounds."
(p. 99) "There were no charts, no books, no syllabus, just the Bible and a chalkboard (for this class)."
(p. 100) "The people who had been part of B.G. Leonard's class on 'The Gifts of the Spirit' were considered graduates and not included in the rosters of Dr. Wierwille's classes."
There's the TWI DOCUMENTATION..............it was Leonard's material.
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allan w.
Exactly...and thank God VP expanded it further !!
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skyrider
Yeah..........years later, after he found Bullinger's research and added it to Leonard's foundation.
Hmmm.......I see a pattern here. Sure lays bare the claim that veepee taught ORIGINAL WORK that hadn't been known since the first century. Even the twi published works help us to track his learning from OTHER MEN'S MINISTRIES.....and expose veepee in one big fat lie.
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templelady
So tell me Allan--
Do you subscribe to the following beliefs:
It is okay to ignore those not of your faith in times of need since they are outside of the "household"
If you lose your job and your family becomes impoverished that is because you are not obeying God
If a drunk driver hits and kills your child-is it is because of your negative believing and only because of your negative believing
I ask because if you believe the above then you are a follower of VPW
If you only partially believe it even rejected the items above then you are just like the majority of the rest of us at GSC, no longer a follower because for whatever reason you find VPW's teachings to be fallacious
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allan w.
I think I've stated before Mo...your 'stance' on these things is really of little interest to me.You are a mormon who follows the 'Joseph Smith version' of the snow on the gas pumps.
And 'no' to all of your questions above ! BUT...I am a follower of a GREAT deal of what VP taught.
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templelady
Allen, Stop dragging out the fact I am LDS everytime I ask you a question the answer to which you don't like or you don't have. This is about VPW please let us stay there-
My point is that despite all your pronouncements and posturing, the reality is that you don't believe VPW was telling the truth either
People who do are still in TWI and believe the above
The reality is that you know that he plain fabricated the beliefs that are outlined above.
The reality is that VPW was not told by God ,or inspired by God, where things of a spiritual nature were concerned --instead he borrowed, extrapolated and just plain fabricated.
Or to put it another way--if God was doing the inspiring and VPW was following said inspiration-do you really think he would have needed Leonard or anyone else?
or even more to the point would God have inspired him incorrectly???
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Bramble
Do you really want to be part of a group that dispises other Christians? Isn't that just a hop away from those same leaders dispising you, if you don't toe their line?
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Belle
LOL!
Is "tiddlywinks" the new way of saying "egg sucking"? Must be that Narcisstic Personality Disorder that keeps people from seeing that they have become that which they supposedly despise.
Mo, I can't remember the term, but it's one of the dodges that WW talks about. When someone can't answer or argue a point made, they attack the messenger instead of responding intelligently to the actual question at hand.
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dmiller
Good points T-Bone. Also -- if I can add this --- docvic never impacted *mainstream* Christianity,
though he certainly impacted individuals seeking spirituality.
I never did see droves of Assembly of God, Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, or Presbyterians
(alphabetical order -- NOT mentioned in *order of preference*), ;)
leaving their *mother churches*, and signing the green card.
Granted some did, but (imo) the most that *signed on the line*, were those who were looking.
And most of those looking, were younger folks that had no church affiliation.
Kinda like myself --- fer instance. No *official* affiliation -- but looking for *something*.
So I disagree that he had any sort of influence on mainstream Christianity.
And --- What the Hey --- You made a comment about Leonard's class.
Said something to the effect that it never would have gotten the attention that pfal did.
(Or was it Allan that said it?? Here's the quote ---)
B.G. ran his class in Calgary, Alberta right???
(That's in Canada -- eh???)
Where was docvic, when he heard of it????
Right -- in Ohio.
(That's the mid-west U.S.A. --- eh???)
Where did docvic leave from, and where did he go to, to take this class??
Right -- he left from Ohio, (USA) and traveled all the way to Calgary, Alberta (Canada).
(Did I mention that Calgary is in Canada -----eh????)
Now -- me in my ignorance, can't say for sure how far Calgary, Alberta is from NK, Ohio --
but I can definitavely say "It's a fur piece of a ways away"!
Coupla thousand miles??
(Allan -- I'm not up on the metric system -- you have to convert to Kilometers on yer own here.) ;)
And what was the year??? 1953?? Travel wasn't *super-sized* like it is today.
Nor were communications on any internet highway (like today).
Point being --
SOMEHOW DOCVIC HAD HEARD OF B.G. LEONARD'S CLASS ---
ALL THE WAY DOWN IN OHIO,
(and here's the quote about Leonard's class again --- )
Quoting that one guy from M*A*S*H (I forget his *screen* name) ---
HORSE HOCKEY!!!
Somehow Leonard's class was well enough known, that docvic heard of it thousands of miles away.
In that day and time, that would have been a feat. Guess there WAS a *Prevailing Word* back then.
No *clicking on links* back then. Word of mouth prevailed.
It must've made it's way honestly into the fabric that *searchers* were looking at. and trying on.
Docvic stole B.G. Leonard's class, Bullinger's work, and J.E. Stile's works just like he stole
the legitimate ministries of Jim Doop, and Heefner.
So --- you can say what you wish, and maybe even feel good about it.
T'is your right. God bless, and have at it.
Docvic is the modern day ecclesiastical Robin Hood.
And that it STILL defined as a thief.
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allan w.
You got yer answers from me Mo, stop whining...
Now answer one of my questions...do you think Joseph Smith was any more spiritual than VP ??!! Take off your mormon tinted glasses for a minute !
What VP taught was/is way more believable than (your man of God) IMO
Belle...you must have skipped my question...why did you jump ship from your 'heavily involved' southern baptist church ?? What made twi more appealing ??
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templelady
Allan,
Anytime you want to meet me down in Doctrinal and fire your questions about LDS --just let me know
Meanwhile this thread is about VPW and what I think or don't think about Joseph Smith is completely irrelevant to that subject
So how about we get back on topic with these two questions
If God was doing the inspiring and VPW was following said inspiration-would VPW have needed Leonard or anyone else?
Would God have inspired VPW incorrectly???
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allan w.
David... the numbers of twi'ers at the height of VPs' ministry would have included MANY from previous denominations, just having gs posters as a synopsis of these former twi'ers gives some insight.
Catholics, mormons, baptists, you name it, all knocked on the door of twi instituition at some point.
At the height of it, twi (maybe) had more than Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer etc..put together.
Thats some impact.
As for VP 'stealing' the works of other men ?? As someone said before, how can one 'steal' the Bible ??
No more than one can accuse Joseph Smith of stealing the works of the freemasons, spiritualist churches etc..ay Mo.!
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allan w.
Post your answers down in doctrinal if you like Mo, I thought it was a simple question, no need to 'dodge it'.
In answer to YOUR question Mo...no, why would God repeat this wonderful revelation over and over again to differn't people. Maybe God knew in His 'foreknowledge' that VP would be the one to 'stick his neck on the line' and run with it. Does Leonard, Bullinger still have their classes going ?
I know this revelation is still 'moving' through various 'splinter groups' and is only going to get bigger
I'm excited I tell ya !!
"New Times New Light"
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