The prophecy issue has always been there. It reached the current strife level because several board members had negative prophecy against them by TR and KG. and these board members put that "prophecy" in the false prophecy catagory.
I guess it wasn't serious till it hit them where they live, by the sounds of it. It's okay when it's someone else but when it's them, no-go...is that it?
but i would suggest to elizabeth and whoever else that this might be a good time to steer clear of others' remedies. and do the thing that "believers" of all stripes seem so loathe to do--look within YOURSELF for the strength, the validation, you need. looking elsewhere is what got you in this mess to begin with.
It's true - the need for others to validate what we do, who we are, is strong. Some people want someone else to tell them they're "okay" before they'll accept it. I don't know that that's what E is doing, but in general if books and ideas like these bring us to a place where we're taking ownership of our own lives and futures, that's a good thing. If they're just another crutch looking for a broken leg they're not much good. I've never read them, probably won't, but I think your advice is sound - I can't "know thyself" without some serious me-time, as it's called. If all I accept about myself is what someone else tells me, I'm in a serious world of hurt - and what if they should turn against me?
In Jesus Christ, there's a "revealer of the heart". I often think of the old hymn, "I Come to the Garden Alone". That relationship is personal and starts one-on-one, not with a crowd of chaperones along for the ride.
To relinquish control to another takes the responsibility off our shoulders, but almost without exception those who do our validating for us never fully accept what we'd like to give them. They can't. When push comes to shove the decisions we make are our own. The older we get the fewer "do overs" we have, and they're few and far between anyway.
I agree wholeheartedly that there's a place for personal ownership of our faith that doesn't rely on someone else telling us what's true and right before we accept it. Our faith can be found within us, if we're willing to look at ourselves and start to actually determine what do "I" really believe, think, feel, want to do, not do.
in addition to the Prophetic Council (picture the Jedi Knight roundtable?) there had also been an imposition of extra-biblical standards and requirements from some camps. i say that this too was elevated above the standard of the word, because it was made equivalent to the word. things like momentus (call it whatever you want - it was still momentus), 12 steps, counseling, group therapy, often in alignment to what MG was having to study in school.
these things were being incorporated into many areas and the buzz was that they would be 'required' for ordination and leadership positions. also people that completed them walked away with false authority 'over' others when they became 'group leaders' for the next program - like they could judge which programs YOU needed to be in because they now had some more earthly knowledge (gnosis). you could see this filling some empty hole left in a heart by insecurity or a feeling of having sqandered so many years in TWI and not having a career or completed an educational program. danger will robinson.
the continued justification for these programs that i had heard were the 'strong results.' i object. anthony robbins can charge $50,000 for an evening and get a group of realestate developers from florida to walk on hot coals, speak up boldy in negotiations, and leave their spouse for the 'right relationship.' they all think they got some serious results too but it doesn't have anything to do with the Bible. the grand results that the world will settle for cannot be compared to what God offers through Christ.
the sides of this programatic approach seemed to be primarily divided along the same lines as the board split. several of those who appear to be the prevailing 'post-vote' board members have already spoken against the elevation of programs over a bible based standard. considering that some people regularly going to 12 step meetings can report that speakers often speak against christianity as 'not ever helping them' i can only hope this 'counsel' gets reappraised.
real deliverence comes through Jesus.
AMEN & AMEN...THIS WAS WORTH REPEATING!! Very perceptive...if you haven't already, you may want to read the book Elizabeth suggested "Christian Psycology War on God's Word" .... It's become mainstream and accepted as truth when in fact it is half truth (which is no truth), it's a great expose, it helps reveal the deceptive lies and their subtlety. Definitely a good read!
Edited by Mr. Ed
Another wonderful source showing the fallacies of 'pop psychology' is www.pamweb.org.
Martin and Deidre Bobgan have been watchmen on the wall in this arena for more than 30 years. You can buy their books if you want hard copy, but most of them are free to download at their site.
One of my favorites is "The End of Christian Psychology". In it they say that they easily came up with the title.....naively thinking Christian Psychology would end after people read their book. It ended for me...but obviously not for the majority of American Christianity. So pass it forward, GSers!
Well, too bad, I really thought this would be the organization who would complete the WoW task. Fer sure. (sarcasm)
Just a thought here, (I know, frightening), but it seems to me, one of the trademarks of high demand organizations is the one of the impossible task.Consider this. Jesus Christ was unable to get "the word over the world". What makes people think they can do better than him, and he (according to the story) was doing miracles on a fairly regular basis?
Just another thing confusing my tiny agnostic brain.
A teaching ministry is for producing a bunch of people who actually do very little for God and
a whole lot for maintaining an organization. Keep reading, keep buying tapes…
maybe after the next class you will get to some new level, but probably not.
Now volunteer at a nursing home. Donate to a homeless shelter, visit the sick and imprisoned.
Help the opressed. Maybe then we are closer to what Christ has in mind.Building a teaching and research ministry you are bound to eventually have to do something besides
see giant snakes or find the correlation between the Pedangta version of the aramaic and.....
Dream those dreams, just keep on dreaming and having visions and prophecies.
But it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to see people in need nowadays.
Prophecy to CES:
My dear little children, wake up...reality is calling.
Agreeing with if it quacks like a duck....
Sure you probably didn't need my take on this, but after reading the required material and
all the subsequent posts thought I would let some steam off. Thanks.
GS :wub:
GS, hey glad you're here and we do need your take on this. You brought up something that I have tried hard to correct during my ex-twi years, the true down in the trenches Christianity that you mentioned in bolded red above. Those are some of the things I believe the Lord wants us to do. It's amazing when I put in that kind of service, I always feel closer to HIM because HE, imo, is in it with me.
Or, maybe I said that wrong: maybe I feel closer to HIM because I'm in it with HIM. There. I feel better now, lol. Exit waybrian (that darn thing keeps popping up when I'm not looking).
....often the sons and daughters of higher ups in the organization somehow seem to get these amazing personal prophecies of great things God is ordaining them for. Oh, and also the wealthier contributors do well.
I found this site a few days ago, I think via Google? I just want to say hello. I did PFAL in '76 and when things went south in Norway with Chris Geer, I found John Lynn and CES. Reading your posts, and I have never been on a site like this before, I feel many of you are very attached to what has happened to these organizations. Forgive me if I'm out of touch, but living in West Africa does not let me keep up with things like this. It seems like many people are very sad, synical, judgemental, etc. It's too bad but maybe people just need to be rotated from authoritative positions before the system breaks down? This God business is tricky over here too. They just put in a "new" mosque complete with two super-charged microphones!
Maybe someone spiritually connected out there can clue me into how you remove an Islamic microphone before they remove my head?
If you think life is complicated in YOUR neighborhood...check out Africa!
It's nice to meet you, brother, and welcome to the GreaseSpot Cafe.
Are your mm's (mosque-mikes) broadcasting inside or outside it...or both?
Hope you hang out with us awhile and give us your perspective on things.....
And...(I just read your profile)...happy birthday 3 weeks ago!
Grace
It's night time here in Senegal, and my "slaves" are impossible to see...at night! Ghetto Blasters outside, it's not funny but I turn up the Bose when the time comes. It starts at 5 thirty in the morning! Next week I am in South Africa for a month so I will get a break! I left the States when Carter was President so I am not too politically correct, so my brain may not be acceptable to many. I just have the feeling that people on this TWI/CES site lost their youth following people like Craig and Chris and maybe screwing a few too many "believers"...but those were the "70's" and we were so much better looking! Thanks for the birthday wishes! My wife and I (Andree) are born on the same day! She rides horses so you know what I got her for her birthday, n'est pas?
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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socks
Hey whatsgoingon, thanks for the input. You said:
I guess it wasn't serious till it hit them where they live, by the sounds of it. It's okay when it's someone else but when it's them, no-go...is that it?
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socks
Sprawled out - Potent Quotable for a 1,000:
It's true - the need for others to validate what we do, who we are, is strong. Some people want someone else to tell them they're "okay" before they'll accept it. I don't know that that's what E is doing, but in general if books and ideas like these bring us to a place where we're taking ownership of our own lives and futures, that's a good thing. If they're just another crutch looking for a broken leg they're not much good. I've never read them, probably won't, but I think your advice is sound - I can't "know thyself" without some serious me-time, as it's called. If all I accept about myself is what someone else tells me, I'm in a serious world of hurt - and what if they should turn against me?
In Jesus Christ, there's a "revealer of the heart". I often think of the old hymn, "I Come to the Garden Alone". That relationship is personal and starts one-on-one, not with a crowd of chaperones along for the ride.
To relinquish control to another takes the responsibility off our shoulders, but almost without exception those who do our validating for us never fully accept what we'd like to give them. They can't. When push comes to shove the decisions we make are our own. The older we get the fewer "do overs" we have, and they're few and far between anyway.
I agree wholeheartedly that there's a place for personal ownership of our faith that doesn't rely on someone else telling us what's true and right before we accept it. Our faith can be found within us, if we're willing to look at ourselves and start to actually determine what do "I" really believe, think, feel, want to do, not do.
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excathedra
and that my dear socksie says it all
and that is why i love HIM
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socks
hey! ditto Excelsa!!!! Just saw that, popped right up and flashed me.
:biglaugh:
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Mr. Ed
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therebutforgrace
Welcome to GreaseSpot, Mr. Ed.
And thanks for your comments.
Another wonderful source showing the fallacies of 'pop psychology' is www.pamweb.org.
Martin and Deidre Bobgan have been watchmen on the wall in this arena for more than 30 years. You can buy their books if you want hard copy, but most of them are free to download at their site.
One of my favorites is "The End of Christian Psychology". In it they say that they easily came up with the title.....naively thinking Christian Psychology would end after people read their book. It ended for me...but obviously not for the majority of American Christianity. So pass it forward, GSers!
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Mr. Ed
THANKS!
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Mark Sanguinetti
Oh cool. Now my favorite horse is posting. Thanks Mr. Ed. And how is Wilbur?
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therebutforgrace
Shall we build a chorus?
How many of us can sing along?
A horse is a horse, of course, of course and no one can talk to a horse, of course.
That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mr. Ed.
Go right to the source and ask the horse, he'll give you the answer that you endorse
He's always on a steady course! Talk to Mr. Ed.
People yackety, yack the streets and waste your time of day.
But Mr. Ed will never speak unless he has something to say!
A horse is a horse........
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Mark Sanguinetti
Everyone please join Gracie and I as we sing along.
A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And no one can talk to a horse of course
That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mister Ed.
Go right to the source and ask the horse
He’ll give you the answer that you’ll endorse.
He’s always on a steady course.
Talk to Mister Ed.
People yakkity yak a streak and waste your time of day
But Mr. Ed will never speak unless he has something to say
A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And this one’ll talk ‘til his voice is hoarse.
You never heard of a talking horse?
Well listen to this: "I'm Mister Ed."
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Gentle Servant
It seems to me that personal prophecies often have an agenda behind them that is more carnal
than spiritual. It amazes me, though not really, that often the sons and daughters of higher ups
in the organization somehow seem to get these amazing personal prophecies of great things
God is ordaining them for. Oh, and also the wealthier contributors do well.
Meahwhile, there is that person who heals up the broken hearted and
hurting of society, undoes the heavy burdens by their kind words and insight and continues to
set captives free from the words of cruel people, and they also help the poor and rejected ones
of society. There is rarely, in my experience, a word of prophecy given to them, unless of course
they need some toilets cleaned at headquarters, then they are told they have the gift of being
a help, or a servant.
It is fairly easy to spot the elitism there.
Well, too bad, I really thought this would be the organization who would complete the WoW
task. Fer sure. (sarcasm)
The prophetess lashing out at the event planner was very reminiscent of someone who tore you
a new ahole if you didn't make the coffee right. Oh, can't you just feel the love.
Personal prophecies sound like a new spin on mark and avoid oh, and control.
We learned about those tactics pretty well. The prophecies to John's wife
were straight from hell. Isn't it funny how these prophets all came up with different versions.
Isn't there a wise man among them? As bad as I am, I have never had God speak to me like that.
Breaking up a marriage why? Jealousy maybe? Politics?
I personally find the comparisons between twi and ces/whatever to be pretty convincing and numerous.
Enjoyed the cup of cool water on this one.
Funny how those missionaries and doctors who help the sick and hurting around the world most often
never had to have a word of prophecy from someone to do it. They heard it directly ^ and they
responded.
A teaching ministry is for producing a bunch of people who actually do very little for God and
a whole lot for maintaining an organization. Keep reading, keep buying tapes…
maybe after the next class you will get to some new level, but probably not.
Now volunteer at a nursing home. Donate to a homeless shelter, visit the sick and imprisoned.
Help the opressed. Maybe then we are closer to what Christ has in mind.
Building a teaching and research ministry you are bound to eventually have to do something besides
see giant snakes or find the correlation between the Pedangta version of the aramaic and.....
Dream those dreams, just keep on dreaming and having visions and prophecies.
But it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to see people in need nowadays.
Prophecy to CES:
My dear little children, wake up...reality is calling.
Agreeing with if it quacks like a duck etc....
Sure you probably didn't need my take on this, but after reading the required material and
all the subsequent posts thought I would let some steam off. Thanks.
GS :wub:
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Sushi
Just a thought here, (I know, frightening), but it seems to me, one of the trademarks of high demand organizations is the one of the impossible task.Consider this. Jesus Christ was unable to get "the word over the world". What makes people think they can do better than him, and he (according to the story) was doing miracles on a fairly regular basis?
Just another thing confusing my tiny agnostic brain.
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sprawled out
no way! ;)
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therebutforgrace
Hi GS,
What a great name...and a great goal for me to shoot for.
I'm glad you weighed in here.
Sadly, I agree with most of your post.
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waterbuffalo
GS, hey glad you're here and we do need your take on this. You brought up something that I have tried hard to correct during my ex-twi years, the true down in the trenches Christianity that you mentioned in bolded red above. Those are some of the things I believe the Lord wants us to do. It's amazing when I put in that kind of service, I always feel closer to HIM because HE, imo, is in it with me.
Or, maybe I said that wrong: maybe I feel closer to HIM because I'm in it with HIM. There. I feel better now, lol. Exit waybrian (that darn thing keeps popping up when I'm not looking).
Oh, and love the prophecy above, too.
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Mark Sanguinetti
You made some good points Gentle Servant. Points that CES people should consider.
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def59
The gospel has been preached on every continent, no thanks to twi ces or cff.
Thanks to Jesus.
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therebutforgrace
Amen, def59!
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excathedra
big snort
sowwy
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Bumpy
I found this site a few days ago, I think via Google? I just want to say hello. I did PFAL in '76 and when things went south in Norway with Chris Geer, I found John Lynn and CES. Reading your posts, and I have never been on a site like this before, I feel many of you are very attached to what has happened to these organizations. Forgive me if I'm out of touch, but living in West Africa does not let me keep up with things like this. It seems like many people are very sad, synical, judgemental, etc. It's too bad but maybe people just need to be rotated from authoritative positions before the system breaks down? This God business is tricky over here too. They just put in a "new" mosque complete with two super-charged microphones!
Maybe someone spiritually connected out there can clue me into how you remove an Islamic microphone before they remove my head?
If you think life is complicated in YOUR neighborhood...check out Africa!
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therebutforgrace
Wow, Bumpy, God bless you!
It's nice to meet you, brother, and welcome to the GreaseSpot Cafe.
Are your mm's (mosque-mikes) broadcasting inside or outside it...or both?
Hope you hang out with us awhile and give us your perspective on things.....
And...(I just read your profile)...happy birthday 3 weeks ago!
Grace
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Gentle Servant
Thanks WaterBuffalo, Sushi, therebutforgrace, Mark et al.
I don't post very often, but you gave a nice coming out party.
Those prophecies sure sounded a lot like the devil spirit paranoia that was used
to excommunicate people in the attack years. If you didn't agree with the agenda
you must be possessed. Of course.
I used to get The Sower and read the articles, but they stopped after awhile.
It was all too familiar for me. And of course, I didn't send money. Been there too.
The photos I saw of some classrooms at CES looked very uncomfortable.
I wonder if you could go to the bathroom? :)
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Bumpy
It's night time here in Senegal, and my "slaves" are impossible to see...at night! Ghetto Blasters outside, it's not funny but I turn up the Bose when the time comes. It starts at 5 thirty in the morning! Next week I am in South Africa for a month so I will get a break! I left the States when Carter was President so I am not too politically correct, so my brain may not be acceptable to many. I just have the feeling that people on this TWI/CES site lost their youth following people like Craig and Chris and maybe screwing a few too many "believers"...but those were the "70's" and we were so much better looking! Thanks for the birthday wishes! My wife and I (Andree) are born on the same day! She rides horses so you know what I got her for her birthday, n'est pas?
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therebutforgrace
Hmmm, wonder what photos you saw, GS...
I don't know everything about CES, but can't think of any 'classrooms'.....
Happy birthday to Andree also...
How cool to share the same birthday!
I love horses...if I'm ever in Senegal I'll look you up.....
As it is, I'll have to look up Senegal....!
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