JPT also PM'd me. I don't like how she said what she said. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt as to their intentions. After reading her posts I have decided to ignore her totally. If no one responds to her posts, she will go away. I hope everyone else will do the same so we can correspond on the topic. There are plenty of other threads on Grease Spot she can rant on.
At this point, I think she has deliberately posted here to disrupt the dialogue.
Chrispy
She will go away...
We can only hope and pray
I also AGREE with Word Wolf but do not know how to do TWO quotes from two different people, Paw does use a LIGHT hand and if you were restricted you deserved it.
Anyone know how to let Elizabeth Lynn know that many of us care about her?
In the early days of the formation of CES, at least early for me, (1989-1990) I had also written JAL a letter framing my concerns about men who were involved with a cult jumping into another man made organization without a moment's hesitation or evaluation of what transpired in TWI and how not to perpetuate the same problems within their new group. It wasn't a nasty letter, as I had a genuine fondness for JAL. He wrote back, he had shared my letter with the others but then wrote me that he had to explain my heart to them all as they were upset.
Well here we are some 16-17 years later. We are all middled age adults or close to that. They base life altering decisions (marriage divorce) on someone else's dreams. I am happily married for 19 years and doing well. I don't base my life's decisions on anything but solid concrete evidence. The day I base decisions on dreams, the shape of clouds or which way the birds fly, I hope my husband gets my power of attorney so I don't make bad decisions that would ruin our retirement funds/mutual funds and all other investments we have.
When I read through this whole section, it was like reading about natives somewhere far from here accusing an old woman of witchcraft and the whole village killing her for that because Chief SoSo's wife stubbed her toe and the eggs they cracked open revealed that some old crone put a curse on her. It does happen.
What is sad is that it happens here. There is more than one way to 'knock' someone off. Reporting dreams to scare people off of them is the same dang thing but only done within the norms of legality.
It seems that besides power, these leaders of TWI and now leaders elsewhere enjoy living on the edge of society, and enjoy being part of the lunatic fringe. That was ONE thing I hated about being in TWI, being on the fringe of society, being an outsider in the middle of the crowd, being the separate one. I guess that is fine when you are a teenager or very young adult seeking to rebel against 'the establishment' and don clothes and makeup and hair as an act of rebellion against the established norms of society. Why in the name of cheeses would a group of aging adults still seek to gain that thrill?
Happy New Year to Agnosticism. Ever noticed it's only Christians that see the devil and get possessed?
I think the question comes down to one of Foundation
Is your foundation Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ
or is your foundation the VEHICLE that tells you about Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ
TWI,CES, The LDS Church, The Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, PFAL, etc etc etc are Vehicles.
In and of themselves they have no worth beyond how well they impart to their adherents the foundation of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.
SO that said I think we need to go back to the beginning
Back to TWI
Back to the first cracks in that Vehicle
were John S, John Lyn etal seeking to preserve the Foundation or to preserve the Vehicle?
Because if the answer is the latter, this experiment carried within its very inception the seeds of failure.
From what I have read over the years I think their goal was to preserve the vehicle, specifically PFAL.
In and of itself that is not a bad thing
the problem comes when the vehicle is no longer seen as the vehicle but in the minds of those on board becomes the foundation
This problem is not exclusive to any denomination or religious body. I can tell you that today I will sit in sacrament meeting with LDS who have this same problem. It is normal, it is HUMAN.
Thus we find ourselves vicarious observers to this tawdry bit of human disaster. A disaster that is the fruit of the best of intentions, the fruit of people who truly thought they were "getting it right" the fruit of people who along the way confused the vehicle with the foudation and so forgot the foundation in an effort to keep the vehicle running
OK I know who you are. That vision God showed me several years before (at the time unknown to me the Carlsons and Stones were being pushed out) was shared at that conference with one person and not in public. Hi Dan! Remember the conversation we had at the end of one of the evenings and you asked me why I had not been around and if I still had a problem with Mark? Remember Dan? And we were supposed to keep talking via phone after the conf but we both had problems finding the time to meet up? I live in Houston Dan.
And the vision was a personal one to me about what God wanted me to do and what was available to me to do in the situation. Now I did not receive this from another prophet but from God. So if you would like to war with God go ahead. And after well over ten years of involvement since 1987 with JAL etc.
Now has the vision come to pass? I rest my case. Who in this ministry has not been trashed at one time or another by this foolishness.
About the Carlsons - they seem to have a very different opinion of whether they left voluntarily or whether they were run off. They also seem to have a strong opinion about a board member who was supposed to support them at their last board meeting - and who did not. Dan, was that you? The opinion I hear from several sources about you even recently is two faced. Playing both sides. Do not trust him.
And Dan, where has all of the board correspondence come from that is going public in various phases - Dan who has been the pipeline for that? Dan? What could possibly be the agenda that you are pushing here? Using others as your front men and then dissing them? "Oh I am so pure! Why are these people posting confidential material?"
Letter writing to CES was a waste of time as nothing ever came back from the throne in writing. Phone call consisted of "I never said that!" Where have you heard that before Dan?
Dan read the vision again - I obeyed God. God was pretty graphic wasn't He? There is no reasoning with toddlers - they are totally tied into their limbic brains. "Mine! Mine! Give that back to me. Mine!"
Better an angry wise man than a non-emotional fool. Go momentisize someone else.
Richard
Hello all. I've been familiarizing myself with this forum for days and had a few musings. Just wondering if anyone has noticed this posting from Richard? Seems like Richard's onto something that maybe 2 people so far have deemed serious. Does anyone care that it seems only one side is being heard?
Good comments and I have taken all of them to heart. Thanks.
RichNCrispy,
Rich, You too have made some good points. Conflict is good if we can learn from it. I hope to. We all need grace, and to dispense it too.
To all, merry Christmas. Remember Jesus is the reason for the season.
Joe, (or who ever I think I am--heck who knows anymore)
Who are you really matters now, Joe. Also, let's be honest and real here. This forum has become all about gossip, hearsay, and looks like to me, name-calling. Then may I stoop to that level and say such immature frat-boy tactics won't pull the wool over my eyes.
I would like to add to all my brothers and sisters in Christ, hope everyone had a lovely Christmas and that the new year will bring some peace and tons of grace.
Welcome, fullcircle, to GreaseSpot, and thank you for your thoughtful post. Your sentence that JAL said the others were upset reminded me of this from The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse "When those who notice the problem become the problem, beware!" and " the 'can't talk' rule blames the person who talks and the ensuing punishments pressure questioners into silence."
This rule (and others) are unsually unspoken. But the longer it goes undetected the more brazen it becomes, until the BOD can in God's name tell the minister and his wife they are not allowed to tell anyone about the 'prophecies' they just gave them...and then institute punishment on them both when the wife disobeys the spiritual directive.
Hopefully our wide open forum here will be inviting to many whose spirit has been quenched by the 'can't talk' rule.
Also, let's be honest and real here. This forum has become all about gossip, hearsay, and looks like to me, name-calling. Then may I stoop to that level and say such immature frat-boy tactics won't pull the wool over my eyes.
Welcome Gomer, sit down and have a cuppa Java. While you are enjoying your coffee, you might want to peruse the thread called "The Facts". There you will find documents (as opposed to gossip or opinion) from which you can form your own decision. Included among them are prophesies made about Elizabeth L, a letter from Mark G, a letter from John L and a committee meeting document.
Welcome, fullcircle, to GreaseSpot, and thank you for your thoughtful post. Your sentence that JAL said the others were upset reminded me of this from The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse "When those who notice the problem become the problem, beware!" and " the 'can't talk' rule blames the person who talks and the ensuing punishments pressure questioners into silence."
This rule (and others) are unsually unspoken. But the longer it goes undetected the more brazen it becomes, until the BOD can in God's name tell the minister and his wife they are not allowed to tell anyone about the 'prophecies' they just gave them...and then institute punishment on them both when the wife disobeys the spiritual directive.
Hopefully our wide open forum here will be inviting to many whose spirit has been quenched by the 'can't talk' rule.
Again, welcome.
Thank you for your welcome :)
Isn 't that the truth? I remember it well in TWI. I remember RD coming to California and JAL and how hush hush it was to go to those meetings and the fear of being found out. I was spoken to by local leadership who quoted the TWI verse, cause it certainly wasn't biblical "Cover men's sins with silence." Ha. You couldn't talk and you couldn't listen to those who did talk. I was given the tapes speaking about the problems, and how it seemed because of the control of what people said and what people listened to, there was almost an underground of getting information.
To me this is just another repeat of the same old thing., with CES I mean. It seems no matter where I went afterwards, church or not, splinter groups, the same rule was in effect. We were explained away as 'being in the process of healing' among other labels. Of course the splinter groups never pointed out that they were leaders from the groups that we 'were in the process of healing from" when we spoke out against issues. I found it to be used in church as well, from one degree to the next.
*looks around at the controls here and wonders how I post this message with your post quoted in it, what happens if I push the wrong button????* *serious worried Look*
Ya made it Fullcircle! The buttons are working fine it appears! I too wondered. Soon things will be, well, fullcircle and once we're all familiar with the new stuff we'll be back to normal. Even more normal than before.
I'm sorry, you are correct Abigail. I am very new to this kind of forum and in no way was trying to disrespect it. That's all. And wondering if anyone else noticed Richard's posting and if they would think that'[/i]s a bit weird? I didn't mean to offend anyone, and thanks for the responses. I feel very welcome here!
Hello all. I've been familiarizing myself with this forum for days and had a few musings. Just wondering if anyone has noticed this posting from Richard? Seems like Richard's onto something that maybe 2 people so far have deemed serious. Does anyone care that it seems only one side is being heard?
Hiya Gomer! Happy New Year! And, welcome! I am Jonny Lingo, Polynesian Island Boy, Tenth Corps grad, and a lover of Love. And, my wife is an Eight Cow Woman!
Anyway, interesting discussion here, and I do suggest you check out "The Facts" thread. The stuff there is quite interesting to be sure. Rather appalling I might add. As a long time Grease Spot Cafe "hang around", I have been very interested to see how much this thread has piqued the interest of fellow GSers. It's like this subject has sparked the flames of all of the EXTWI's here, and that really intrigues me. I am still working on why it is that this is the case.
Anyway, welcome to the GSCafe, and, make sure to keep up your "breastplate of righteousness", for it does get somewhat rough around here at times.
I think the reason It has sparked so much interest in ExTWI who are not affiliated with CES is because it is part and parcel of one of the long time debates of GSC to Whit
Was PFAL and TWI flawed from the outset--just a shrewd manipulation by VPW--or was PAFL and TWI originally of God and somehow VPW got lost along the way (no pun intended)
As long as the perception was that CES had somehow managed to return PFAL and TWI doctrine to an "Older Purer" form as it were there was a body of evidence that supported the former contention.
Now, at least from my perspective, the exposure of many of the same flaws in CES as were evinced in TWI brings more credence to the former position.
Add to that that we all were involved with TWI in some manner or another and if the former were true we were all first class dupes. CES by maintaining that PFAL wasn't the problem gave us a glimmer that while dupes maybe, just maybe, we weren't total dupes.
That belief system has also undergone some serious structural damage with these revelations
I think the reason It has sparked so much interest in ExTWI who are not affiliated with CES is because it is part and parcel of one of the long time debates of GSC to Whit
Was PFAL and TWI flawed from the outset--just a shrewd manipulation by VPW--or was PAFL and TWI originally of God and somehow VPW got lost along the way (no pun intended)
As long as the perception was that CES had somehow managed to return PFAL and TWI doctrine to an "Older Purer" form as it were there was a body of evidence that supported the former contention.
Now, at least from my perspective, the exposure of many of the same flaws in CES as were evinced in TWI brings more credence to the former position.
Add to that that we all were involved with TWI in some manner or another and if the former were true we were all first class dupes. CES by maintaining that PFAL wasn't the problem gave us a glimmer that while dupes maybe, just maybe, we weren't total dupes.
That belief system has also undergone some serious structural damage with these revelations
And there it is. Personally, I think that the latter is the case and that VPW got lost along the way. I think that the flaws came in due to human, or, sin nature, not unlike any and all sin nature found in Biblical records where men and women fell into the insidious trap of the Devil.
However, I do not believe that CES returned to the "pure doctrine" of PFAL. I think it way way off intot he wide blue yonder with some pretty strange doctrine as witnessed by this forum.
Hiya Gomer! Happy New Year! And, welcome! I am Jonny Lingo, Polynesian Island Boy, Tenth Corps grad, and a lover of Love. And, my wife is an Eight Cow Woman!
Anyway, interesting discussion here, and I do suggest you check out "The Facts" thread. The stuff there is quite interesting to be sure. Rather appalling I might add. As a long time Grease Spot Cafe "hang around", I have been very interested to see how much this thread has piqued the interest of fellow GSers. It's like this subject has sparked the flames of all of the EXTWI's here, and that really intrigues me. I am still working on why it is that this is the case.
Anyway, welcome to the GSCafe, and, make sure to keep up your "breastplate of righteousness", for it does get somewhat rough around here at times.
God bless,
Jonny Lingo
Jonny.......some of us have pointed out WHY we are interested in this thread, but apparently you keep missing the point that some of us are making.
IMO (and others who've posted the same thing)......CES is promoting an inner-circle doctrine involving personal prophecies, dream interpretation, momentus badgering, etc. wherein bullying and manipulation are staple tools of their organization. Apparently, some of us who take a concerned interest in this thread have friends and/or family being courted with these deceitful doctrines......and thus, we are speaking forth our concerns, our viewpoints.
Even some of the CES followers have come forward and said, "They had no idea CES was pushing these personal prophecy doctrines, or had a Prophetic Advisory Council." Why is there an inner-circle of information for those who are more spiritually mature??? To me, this sounds all too eerily familiar with the structure/hierarchy/agenda of CES' parent organization....twi.
Personally, I don't care if you "don't get it." Nor do I follow the advice of "just move on and forget it." For me, I think open dialogue is a great thing.....something twi attempted to squelch for far too long.
Sure, we could stop posting and go have another beer, or something. But .......obviously, some of us have a concerned interest in this thread and are sharing our thoughts, our experiences, our viewpoint.
Jonny, I thnk skyrider hit the nail on the donkey. There's got to be many different reasons for the reaction. Hey, it's on the board. Anyone showing up and reading material like what was originally posted is bound to have some kind of reaction.
Me - (in case any CES folks are reading) I'm concerned 'from a distance' as a non-participant. If I felt a personal responsibility I'd contact the people involved. But I have no context for doing that, no meaningful relationship that would warrant it or make it soluble for any of them. Writing a bunch of letters to people I haven't talked to in over 15 years about events and matters I'm not involved in is a waste of time and would stand to allow my words to be interpreted in an environment that is IMO shakey, to put it mildly. So I'm not going to waste my time or theirs.
Given what I know, I feel like the principles are immature and ill-equipped to be running a 'service' ministry and/or a 'church', whichever they want to consider themselves at the moment. They do have a right to do what they're doing and at some level it's probably not harmful to people that buy a tape or a book or go to a meeting and then go home and do whatever it is they really do wherever they do it. But letting them get their hooks in you and ending up in a dependent relationship with them where they can influence you, friends and family is going to be risky, IMO.
I don't mean to come off egotistical or like a slug, but arguing theology with someone like John L or the boys would be silly, like discussing advanced harmony theory with a kid blowing in his kazoo the wrong way. I'm more concerned about the quality of life these people suffer with that results in such balderdash. I don't have any Big Solutions, I think ultimately it will just have to play itself out. Maybe a few people can avoid a few bruises reading here, dunno.
So me, I am in a way, sending a warning - not a big scarey one with spiders and ghouls running around, just a simple visual tug on the sleeve to get out of harm's way.
GS is where I read about it but I've heard the drums beating about this stuff from distant shores over the last few years. Since this forum exists, it's about at the right level for where I'm coming from to post my ever-loving and so-insightful thoughts. Y'know?
I also think your points are good ones too and will likely prove valuable to some CES people that may ramble through these aisles. You never know who's out there, reading what. :)
Freeone wrote.....Was PFAL and TWI flawed from the outset--just a shrewd manipulation by VPW—or was PFAL and TWI originally of God and somehow VPW got lost along the way (no pun intended)
Jonny Lingo wrote.... I think that the latter is the case and that VPW got lost along the way
I wholeheartedly agree with Jonny, though it’s not the point of this thread. But the Lord showed me long ago that I was hungering and thirsting after righteousness back in The Day, and that PFAL was His beginning to fill me. It wasn’t to have been my last meal, nor was I supposed to only eat it for the rest of my life...but what I did with it wasn’t His fault. So I remain very thankful I heard about PFAL. And, TWI...WAS...different back then.
Since I know the CESers I can also say .....CES was different back when. The roots were there for this disaster, yes, and as I wrote earlier.,... the longer [an unbiblical thought or practice] goes undetected. the more brazen it becomes..... but JAL and JS didn’t start off sabotaging saints and marriages and family relationships.
As has been said here more than once, when neither took time off to ‘get’ what happened in twi, they also didn’t ‘get’ that although they left twi, twi hadn’t left them. Although they worked very very hard to be different from twi and in some ways succeeded.....it was only a matter of time before they would become like it and then worse than it.
Because it’s a heart issue.
If I think I’ve got ‘the corner’ on the Truth, then I think God NEEDS my organization and I think YOU need my organization and I think you need ME to keep my organization going and I think many other un-true things and I make my decisions based on those un-true things and...I get more and more off of the Word that I know I’m working very hard to stay on.
As templelady so well put, I replace ‘the Savior’ (foundation) with ‘the vehicle to the Savior’. And the rest, as they say, is history......repeating itself
Gomer, the holidays are over tomorrow and we shall see if Joeoday returns to this Forum. CES itself doesn’t owe GSC anything. They do, however, owe their followers the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...and since Joeoday is the closest thing we’ve had to a spokesman for CES and he has said Dan G and JS are willing to hear.....it will be interesting to see if he is still willing to hear from us here.
Jonny.......some of us have pointed out WHY we are interested in this thread, but apparently you keep missing the point that some of us are making.
I understand Sky, why some of you here are interested. And I too have a very good friend who has been involved in CES, and I have now copied and pasted the "black widow coming out of the nose prophesies" to him for his perusal. Sorry for sounding offensive. I apologize. I guess I am lousy at communicating. It seems that for some here, other than yourself and others like you of course, that there is a "fascination" in this CES story. Kind of like the fascination that fanned the thread by the guy who said that "He had met a man named Craig who seemed to be working a job way below his ability level...."And it is that which just seems "interesting" to me. And, the influx of new GSers is interesting also.
The "moving on" thing? Well, point well taken. For some who are only recently emerging, this is not so easy to do. But in the end, I truly hope that all who have been burdened by their involvement with any destructive group, will be able to finally move on, which I contend is in their best interests.
Like Socks said, I personally would have no reason to write or call JAL, because I have not been involved with CES as many others have. And so, I'll just do more reading here mostly. I hope that it works out for everybody here, and there too! Peace out...
CES now uses a term called the servant-leader that appears in their literature. This is part of their paradigm of believing in a strong leader/weak follower model - in my opinion. The problem I have with this is that a word study of the new testament for the word lead and its derivatives leaves one with the distinct impression that Jesus believed leaders were blind and did no more than to lead the blind. Lots of bumping into hard objects, each other and getting bruised.
Servant leader to me is kinda like a half fish half fowl imaginary animal. I do not see it existing in nature.
Either the servant serves or the leader leads. The servant is not concerned about politics and position. That seems to be what the Way Corps and leadership in twi and CES is really about. Protecting one's own self interests.
I've heard other groups use this term Servant/ Leader. I think the intent was that even though we may at times be leaders ,we should also still be servants to people . I do believe we can be both I think even leaders should be serving the Lord at least that what Romans 12:11 seems to indicate. I don't think it has to do with a strength and weakness thing as in one being superior over the other.
I agree. I remember when this name came about and its intent was to be what Jesus said...'he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.' Since folks had been hurt by leaders before, CES wanted to create a distinction.
And they did....in writing and maybe in speech.
In practice, however, as GSC has so clearly exposed, they became just what they were trying not to become.
And recognizing THAT will help any leader or follower of CES who humbles himself before his Lord and asks why. He who remains humble will also listen and, in time, the fruit of his life will change. There is room at the Cross for everyone.
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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Sushi
Perhaps, more properly, CESI (Christian Educational Services Investigation).
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Dot Matrix
She will go away...
We can only hope and pray
I also AGREE with Word Wolf but do not know how to do TWO quotes from two different people, Paw does use a LIGHT hand and if you were restricted you deserved it.
Anyone know how to let Elizabeth Lynn know that many of us care about her?
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FullCircle
In the early days of the formation of CES, at least early for me, (1989-1990) I had also written JAL a letter framing my concerns about men who were involved with a cult jumping into another man made organization without a moment's hesitation or evaluation of what transpired in TWI and how not to perpetuate the same problems within their new group. It wasn't a nasty letter, as I had a genuine fondness for JAL. He wrote back, he had shared my letter with the others but then wrote me that he had to explain my heart to them all as they were upset.
Well here we are some 16-17 years later. We are all middled age adults or close to that. They base life altering decisions (marriage divorce) on someone else's dreams. I am happily married for 19 years and doing well. I don't base my life's decisions on anything but solid concrete evidence. The day I base decisions on dreams, the shape of clouds or which way the birds fly, I hope my husband gets my power of attorney so I don't make bad decisions that would ruin our retirement funds/mutual funds and all other investments we have.
When I read through this whole section, it was like reading about natives somewhere far from here accusing an old woman of witchcraft and the whole village killing her for that because Chief SoSo's wife stubbed her toe and the eggs they cracked open revealed that some old crone put a curse on her. It does happen.
What is sad is that it happens here. There is more than one way to 'knock' someone off. Reporting dreams to scare people off of them is the same dang thing but only done within the norms of legality.
It seems that besides power, these leaders of TWI and now leaders elsewhere enjoy living on the edge of society, and enjoy being part of the lunatic fringe. That was ONE thing I hated about being in TWI, being on the fringe of society, being an outsider in the middle of the crowd, being the separate one. I guess that is fine when you are a teenager or very young adult seeking to rebel against 'the establishment' and don clothes and makeup and hair as an act of rebellion against the established norms of society. Why in the name of cheeses would a group of aging adults still seek to gain that thrill?
Happy New Year to Agnosticism. Ever noticed it's only Christians that see the devil and get possessed?
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templelady
Calmer now
And I have been pondering this entire fiasco
I think the question comes down to one of Foundation
Is your foundation Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ
or is your foundation the VEHICLE that tells you about Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ
TWI,CES, The LDS Church, The Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, PFAL, etc etc etc are Vehicles.
In and of themselves they have no worth beyond how well they impart to their adherents the foundation of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.
SO that said I think we need to go back to the beginning
Back to TWI
Back to the first cracks in that Vehicle
were John S, John Lyn etal seeking to preserve the Foundation or to preserve the Vehicle?
Because if the answer is the latter, this experiment carried within its very inception the seeds of failure.
From what I have read over the years I think their goal was to preserve the vehicle, specifically PFAL.
In and of itself that is not a bad thing
the problem comes when the vehicle is no longer seen as the vehicle but in the minds of those on board becomes the foundation
This problem is not exclusive to any denomination or religious body. I can tell you that today I will sit in sacrament meeting with LDS who have this same problem. It is normal, it is HUMAN.
Thus we find ourselves vicarious observers to this tawdry bit of human disaster. A disaster that is the fruit of the best of intentions, the fruit of people who truly thought they were "getting it right" the fruit of people who along the way confused the vehicle with the foudation and so forgot the foundation in an effort to keep the vehicle running
Just my Thoughts
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gomer
Hello all. I've been familiarizing myself with this forum for days and had a few musings. Just wondering if anyone has noticed this posting from Richard? Seems like Richard's onto something that maybe 2 people so far have deemed serious. Does anyone care that it seems only one side is being heard?
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gomer
Who are you really matters now, Joe. Also, let's be honest and real here. This forum has become all about gossip, hearsay, and looks like to me, name-calling. Then may I stoop to that level and say such immature frat-boy tactics won't pull the wool over my eyes.
I would like to add to all my brothers and sisters in Christ, hope everyone had a lovely Christmas and that the new year will bring some peace and tons of grace.
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therebutforgrace
Welcome, fullcircle, to GreaseSpot, and thank you for your thoughtful post. Your sentence that JAL said the others were upset reminded me of this from The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse "When those who notice the problem become the problem, beware!" and " the 'can't talk' rule blames the person who talks and the ensuing punishments pressure questioners into silence."
This rule (and others) are unsually unspoken. But the longer it goes undetected the more brazen it becomes, until the BOD can in God's name tell the minister and his wife they are not allowed to tell anyone about the 'prophecies' they just gave them...and then institute punishment on them both when the wife disobeys the spiritual directive.
Hopefully our wide open forum here will be inviting to many whose spirit has been quenched by the 'can't talk' rule.
Again, welcome.
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Abigail
Welcome Gomer, sit down and have a cuppa Java. While you are enjoying your coffee, you might want to peruse the thread called "The Facts". There you will find documents (as opposed to gossip or opinion) from which you can form your own decision. Included among them are prophesies made about Elizabeth L, a letter from Mark G, a letter from John L and a committee meeting document.
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socks
Welcome and Happy New Year Gomer! You're just in time for the mid-Winter tan version of GS! Catch some rays!
Yes. Can you offer any other sides? Encourage any other sides to present those other sides? Other sides would be welcome!
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FullCircle
Thank you for your welcome :)
Isn 't that the truth? I remember it well in TWI. I remember RD coming to California and JAL and how hush hush it was to go to those meetings and the fear of being found out. I was spoken to by local leadership who quoted the TWI verse, cause it certainly wasn't biblical "Cover men's sins with silence." Ha. You couldn't talk and you couldn't listen to those who did talk. I was given the tapes speaking about the problems, and how it seemed because of the control of what people said and what people listened to, there was almost an underground of getting information.
To me this is just another repeat of the same old thing., with CES I mean. It seems no matter where I went afterwards, church or not, splinter groups, the same rule was in effect. We were explained away as 'being in the process of healing' among other labels. Of course the splinter groups never pointed out that they were leaders from the groups that we 'were in the process of healing from" when we spoke out against issues. I found it to be used in church as well, from one degree to the next.
*looks around at the controls here and wonders how I post this message with your post quoted in it, what happens if I push the wrong button????* *serious worried Look*
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socks
Ya made it Fullcircle! The buttons are working fine it appears! I too wondered. Soon things will be, well, fullcircle and once we're all familiar with the new stuff we'll be back to normal. Even more normal than before.
Welcome!
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gomer
Hello again!
I'm sorry, you are correct Abigail. I am very new to this kind of forum and in no way was trying to disrespect it. That's all. And wondering if anyone else noticed Richard's posting and if they would think that'[/i]s a bit weird? I didn't mean to offend anyone, and thanks for the responses. I feel very welcome here!
Cheers!
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dmiller
Gomer --welcome to GSC.
Please continue to feel at home here.
And thanks for your perspectives.
They are welcome here too.
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Abigail
No offense taken, Gomer. It takes a bit to get your feet wet here - I was just trying to point you in the direction of a context.
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J0nny Ling0
Hiya Gomer! Happy New Year! And, welcome! I am Jonny Lingo, Polynesian Island Boy, Tenth Corps grad, and a lover of Love. And, my wife is an Eight Cow Woman!
Anyway, interesting discussion here, and I do suggest you check out "The Facts" thread. The stuff there is quite interesting to be sure. Rather appalling I might add. As a long time Grease Spot Cafe "hang around", I have been very interested to see how much this thread has piqued the interest of fellow GSers. It's like this subject has sparked the flames of all of the EXTWI's here, and that really intrigues me. I am still working on why it is that this is the case.
Anyway, welcome to the GSCafe, and, make sure to keep up your "breastplate of righteousness", for it does get somewhat rough around here at times.
God bless,
Jonny Lingo
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templelady
I think the reason It has sparked so much interest in ExTWI who are not affiliated with CES is because it is part and parcel of one of the long time debates of GSC to Whit
Was PFAL and TWI flawed from the outset--just a shrewd manipulation by VPW--or was PAFL and TWI originally of God and somehow VPW got lost along the way (no pun intended)
As long as the perception was that CES had somehow managed to return PFAL and TWI doctrine to an "Older Purer" form as it were there was a body of evidence that supported the former contention.
Now, at least from my perspective, the exposure of many of the same flaws in CES as were evinced in TWI brings more credence to the former position.
Add to that that we all were involved with TWI in some manner or another and if the former were true we were all first class dupes. CES by maintaining that PFAL wasn't the problem gave us a glimmer that while dupes maybe, just maybe, we weren't total dupes.
That belief system has also undergone some serious structural damage with these revelations
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J0nny Ling0
And there it is. Personally, I think that the latter is the case and that VPW got lost along the way. I think that the flaws came in due to human, or, sin nature, not unlike any and all sin nature found in Biblical records where men and women fell into the insidious trap of the Devil.
However, I do not believe that CES returned to the "pure doctrine" of PFAL. I think it way way off intot he wide blue yonder with some pretty strange doctrine as witnessed by this forum.
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skyrider
Jonny.......some of us have pointed out WHY we are interested in this thread, but apparently you keep missing the point that some of us are making.
IMO (and others who've posted the same thing)......CES is promoting an inner-circle doctrine involving personal prophecies, dream interpretation, momentus badgering, etc. wherein bullying and manipulation are staple tools of their organization. Apparently, some of us who take a concerned interest in this thread have friends and/or family being courted with these deceitful doctrines......and thus, we are speaking forth our concerns, our viewpoints.
Even some of the CES followers have come forward and said, "They had no idea CES was pushing these personal prophecy doctrines, or had a Prophetic Advisory Council." Why is there an inner-circle of information for those who are more spiritually mature??? To me, this sounds all too eerily familiar with the structure/hierarchy/agenda of CES' parent organization....twi.
Personally, I don't care if you "don't get it." Nor do I follow the advice of "just move on and forget it." For me, I think open dialogue is a great thing.....something twi attempted to squelch for far too long.
Sure, we could stop posting and go have another beer, or something. But .......obviously, some of us have a concerned interest in this thread and are sharing our thoughts, our experiences, our viewpoint.
Happy New Year.
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socks
Jonny, I thnk skyrider hit the nail on the donkey. There's got to be many different reasons for the reaction. Hey, it's on the board. Anyone showing up and reading material like what was originally posted is bound to have some kind of reaction.
Me - (in case any CES folks are reading) I'm concerned 'from a distance' as a non-participant. If I felt a personal responsibility I'd contact the people involved. But I have no context for doing that, no meaningful relationship that would warrant it or make it soluble for any of them. Writing a bunch of letters to people I haven't talked to in over 15 years about events and matters I'm not involved in is a waste of time and would stand to allow my words to be interpreted in an environment that is IMO shakey, to put it mildly. So I'm not going to waste my time or theirs.
Given what I know, I feel like the principles are immature and ill-equipped to be running a 'service' ministry and/or a 'church', whichever they want to consider themselves at the moment. They do have a right to do what they're doing and at some level it's probably not harmful to people that buy a tape or a book or go to a meeting and then go home and do whatever it is they really do wherever they do it. But letting them get their hooks in you and ending up in a dependent relationship with them where they can influence you, friends and family is going to be risky, IMO.
I don't mean to come off egotistical or like a slug, but arguing theology with someone like John L or the boys would be silly, like discussing advanced harmony theory with a kid blowing in his kazoo the wrong way. I'm more concerned about the quality of life these people suffer with that results in such balderdash. I don't have any Big Solutions, I think ultimately it will just have to play itself out. Maybe a few people can avoid a few bruises reading here, dunno.
So me, I am in a way, sending a warning - not a big scarey one with spiders and ghouls running around, just a simple visual tug on the sleeve to get out of harm's way.
GS is where I read about it but I've heard the drums beating about this stuff from distant shores over the last few years. Since this forum exists, it's about at the right level for where I'm coming from to post my ever-loving and so-insightful thoughts. Y'know?
I also think your points are good ones too and will likely prove valuable to some CES people that may ramble through these aisles. You never know who's out there, reading what. :)
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therebutforgrace
Freeone wrote.....Was PFAL and TWI flawed from the outset--just a shrewd manipulation by VPW—or was PFAL and TWI originally of God and somehow VPW got lost along the way (no pun intended)
Jonny Lingo wrote.... I think that the latter is the case and that VPW got lost along the way
I wholeheartedly agree with Jonny, though it’s not the point of this thread. But the Lord showed me long ago that I was hungering and thirsting after righteousness back in The Day, and that PFAL was His beginning to fill me. It wasn’t to have been my last meal, nor was I supposed to only eat it for the rest of my life...but what I did with it wasn’t His fault. So I remain very thankful I heard about PFAL. And, TWI...WAS...different back then.
Since I know the CESers I can also say .....CES was different back when. The roots were there for this disaster, yes, and as I wrote earlier.,... the longer [an unbiblical thought or practice] goes undetected. the more brazen it becomes..... but JAL and JS didn’t start off sabotaging saints and marriages and family relationships.
As has been said here more than once, when neither took time off to ‘get’ what happened in twi, they also didn’t ‘get’ that although they left twi, twi hadn’t left them. Although they worked very very hard to be different from twi and in some ways succeeded.....it was only a matter of time before they would become like it and then worse than it.
Because it’s a heart issue.
If I think I’ve got ‘the corner’ on the Truth, then I think God NEEDS my organization and I think YOU need my organization and I think you need ME to keep my organization going and I think many other un-true things and I make my decisions based on those un-true things and...I get more and more off of the Word that I know I’m working very hard to stay on.
As templelady so well put, I replace ‘the Savior’ (foundation) with ‘the vehicle to the Savior’. And the rest, as they say, is history......repeating itself
Gomer, the holidays are over tomorrow and we shall see if Joeoday returns to this Forum. CES itself doesn’t owe GSC anything. They do, however, owe their followers the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...and since Joeoday is the closest thing we’ve had to a spokesman for CES and he has said Dan G and JS are willing to hear.....it will be interesting to see if he is still willing to hear from us here.
A blessed 2007 to you all!
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J0nny Ling0
Skyrider said:
Jonny.......some of us have pointed out WHY we are interested in this thread, but apparently you keep missing the point that some of us are making.
I understand Sky, why some of you here are interested. And I too have a very good friend who has been involved in CES, and I have now copied and pasted the "black widow coming out of the nose prophesies" to him for his perusal. Sorry for sounding offensive. I apologize. I guess I am lousy at communicating. It seems that for some here, other than yourself and others like you of course, that there is a "fascination" in this CES story. Kind of like the fascination that fanned the thread by the guy who said that "He had met a man named Craig who seemed to be working a job way below his ability level...."And it is that which just seems "interesting" to me. And, the influx of new GSers is interesting also.
The "moving on" thing? Well, point well taken. For some who are only recently emerging, this is not so easy to do. But in the end, I truly hope that all who have been burdened by their involvement with any destructive group, will be able to finally move on, which I contend is in their best interests.
Like Socks said, I personally would have no reason to write or call JAL, because I have not been involved with CES as many others have. And so, I'll just do more reading here mostly. I hope that it works out for everybody here, and there too! Peace out...
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richnchrispy
CES now uses a term called the servant-leader that appears in their literature. This is part of their paradigm of believing in a strong leader/weak follower model - in my opinion. The problem I have with this is that a word study of the new testament for the word lead and its derivatives leaves one with the distinct impression that Jesus believed leaders were blind and did no more than to lead the blind. Lots of bumping into hard objects, each other and getting bruised.
Servant leader to me is kinda like a half fish half fowl imaginary animal. I do not see it existing in nature.
Either the servant serves or the leader leads. The servant is not concerned about politics and position. That seems to be what the Way Corps and leadership in twi and CES is really about. Protecting one's own self interests.
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WhiteDove
I've heard other groups use this term Servant/ Leader. I think the intent was that even though we may at times be leaders ,we should also still be servants to people . I do believe we can be both I think even leaders should be serving the Lord at least that what Romans 12:11 seems to indicate. I don't think it has to do with a strength and weakness thing as in one being superior over the other.
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therebutforgrace
I agree. I remember when this name came about and its intent was to be what Jesus said...'he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.' Since folks had been hurt by leaders before, CES wanted to create a distinction.
And they did....in writing and maybe in speech.
In practice, however, as GSC has so clearly exposed, they became just what they were trying not to become.
And recognizing THAT will help any leader or follower of CES who humbles himself before his Lord and asks why. He who remains humble will also listen and, in time, the fruit of his life will change. There is room at the Cross for everyone.
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