So VPW was a theif. What is it that keeps current leadership motivated?
Thief?? In the end, his heart's corruption went far deeper than that. Thief is almost a compliment.
Current leadership learned from the master (vp), who spent half of his life slowly becomming infected.
Of course, LCM, the master student, carried the torch as far as he could. He picked up the torch from vp that eventually would burn TWI to the ground.
TWI was the outward manefestation of the internal reality and presence of vp's heart. In other words, as vp went, so went TWI.
And, yes, I believe. I believe in my Father and His Son, my brother Jesus Christ, and that their love for me will never fail. Beyond that, I read the bible and glean as much good as my feeble mind can handle. I've lost all trust in scholars and "right-dividers". My bible says "even a fool need not err therein". That's me, and I'm taking Him at his word!!
Well, Ex, in the broad sense of the terms, yes. Those are the bait. But vp's influence was more foundational.
His "methods" appealed to the basest human motives. He was able to bring into the inner sanctum, those whom he tested and found to have gaping cracks in their character and lusted after the same things in life that he lusted after.
If he found a character flaw, he worked it...like a drug pusher...a little at a time...until, before one realized it, one was "sharing fully" in his spiritual debauchery and rape of God's people.
I was tested, too. Didn't realize it at the time, but had I accepted the "bait" when it was offered, I was told there was more "fun" available than I could imagine.
vp's methods had become planned, intentional, evil and self-serving. I saw it first hand, but he couldn't get rid of me cause I wasn't corps, and no one else could do my job.
We had an unspoken arrangement, of sorts. He got soooo bad by the mid 80s, just his presence made me physically ill to be around him, and I left. I still get sick to my stomach when I smell drambue!!
dear listener, did he really say "fun" ? that's upsetting
If he found a character flaw, he worked it...like a drug pusher...a little at a time...until, before one realized it, one was "sharing fully" in his spiritual debauchery and rape of God's people.
he found my character flaw..... being sexually abused as a child.....
I was tested, too. Didn't realize it at the time, but had I accepted the "bait" when it was offered, I was told there was more "fun" available than I could imagine.
sorry but my head is still reeling from this one
somewhere in me i thought maybe he really believed he was supposed to heal me
Well, Ex, in the broad sense of the terms, yes. Those are the bait. But vp's influence was more foundational.
His "methods" appealed to the basest human motives. He was able to bring into the inner sanctum, those whom he tested and found to have gaping cracks in their character and lusted after the same things in life that he lusted after.
If he found a character flaw, he worked it...like a drug pusher...a little at a time...until, before one realized it, one was "sharing fully" in his spiritual debauchery and rape of God's people.
I was tested, too. Didn't realize it at the time, but had I accepted the "bait" when it was offered, I was told there was more "fun" available than I could imagine.
vp's methods had become planned, intentional, evil and self-serving. I saw it first hand, but he couldn't get rid of me cause I wasn't corps, and no one else could do my job.
We had an unspoken arrangement, of sorts. He got soooo bad by the mid 80s, just his presence made me physically ill to be around him, and I left. I still get sick to my stomach when I smell drambue!!
Thief?? In the end, his heart's corruption went far deeper than that. Thief is almost a compliment.
Current leadership learned from the master (vp), who spent half of his life slowly becomming infected.
Of course, LCM, the master student, carried the torch as far as he could. He picked up the torch from vp that eventually would burn TWI to the ground.
TWI was the outward manefestation of the internal reality and presence of vp's heart. In other words, as vp went, so went TWI.
And, yes, I believe. I believe in my Father and His Son, my brother Jesus Christ, and that their love for me will never fail. Beyond that, I read the bible and glean as much good as my feeble mind can handle. I've lost all trust in scholars and "right-dividers". My bible says "even a fool need not err therein". That's me, and I'm taking Him at his word!!
This was one of the hardest posts for me to ever read; because I did drink all the Koolaid and never really knew how many beautiful hearts were being broken and trashed...and used and abused with fore-thought and malice. I don't think I will ever truly understand why they could want the things they did at the price they've caused so many to pay on their behalf; and they have become so passed feeling real love! I think with what so many of you have said (especially you Excathedra and Listener) I can finally understand how and why the current leadership of TWI can continue on...although I am very glad they cannot continue on in the style that they had become accustom to financially...at least I hope they cannot!!!!
Without TWI, I would most likely not have learned as much about God as I have, nor would my son or adopted from online daughter have eternal life; nor would I have ever met and known such exquisite hearts as I have known Here and back then!
I deeply Love and respect You All no matter what you believe at this point and I am thankful for all the things i have learned from you all.... and I Hope that we have eternity together.... and please know I am not ready to know, if that is a myth.....
Love You All(((((((((((All))))))))))))))))), RainbowsGirl
I believed! And I was truly fortunate in that I never spent any time at HQ. For me, the real goodies in PFAL were few, but very compelling; how the church was supposed to be structured and operate; the way the one body is supposed to operate;how to read and understand the Bible - in a general sense, not as twi tweaked it later on.
Except for those things that Raf has so carefully written about in his treatise on the errors in it, I think I believe everything that was taught.
The information in JCOP and JCOPS draws me close to God even today.
BUT everything else IMHO and ymmv is just rotten road-kill.
Guess I have trouble believing any of it any more. I mean if God is as all knowing and powerfull as he is purported to be.....why would he lead ALL of us to a group of men who he knew would rape some of us, knew would cause some of us to die, knew would destroy some of our lives in order that some others of us could come to a knowledge of him?
That is a pretty ugly accusation to lay at the feet of someone who purportedly loves us and desires for us to know him better.
It would certainly seem to negate the parable concerning the value of the single lost sheep.
Rascal, and everybody else who holds these thoughts:
it wasn't God who "lured" you into PFAL and thus the ministry. Everybody puts the blame OR the credit On God.
God is. God exists. He lives! He has His set of rules. He loves with an unfathomable love.
TWI was not, and is not, and never was God. The organization sent out it's reapers and collectors to collect people to pay money for a class. We did pay the money. We sat through the class. We followed along.....we did this because we became indoctrinated with lies. We didn't have the whole truth. I don't think you can blame all the rotten stuff that went on on God. You can blame it on people who were acting "on his behalf" or so they thought. It was a nasty religion that we were part of.
God is so much bigger than any organization. Learn to separate the 2.
I can't explain why I stuck around so long. I guess I was mesmerized as well for a long time. But we are out now. NOW is the time for us to do something else with out lives. We are still God's kids, and he cares for us very very much.
We were indoctrinated to believe them and every other church or even bible thumper was evil, off the Word, filled with debbles. So - that's how we learned to think. We have to UNlearn that part. Now it is most probably true that no person, organization, denomination etc has the Truth and teaches it. I doubt that any such has it all at this moment. But that doesn't mean we can't use the truth we know.
I don't know why people perish in fires, or why cute dogs get run over by cars or specifically why anything like that happens. I don't believe that God knows in a predetermined preordained manner what each of us will do at any given time. He knows us according to our fruit, our hearts, our actions.
Please - - don't toss God out with a rotten bottom-dwelling poison peddling pack of showmen. Please. God is so much more than that...and I think you know it.
I can't honestly say I believed at all at first. It took time for my processors to sift through the information. I was intrigued...and as time went on, I began to accept the information because it was starting to make sense....I started to see some things fit, but this took at least 2 years...
I didn't accept everything. The more I worked the word on my own, and saw it for myself, I was more willing to believe it. But Eve, and the serpent thing, that was something I've never been sure of.
The thing that bothered me the most was people didn't know how to put the word into practical application, and teachings especially in the 90's and up were often condemnation and if you don't line it up.....As time progressed, any inspiration that used to be in teachings, especially from HQ, were gone.
It was all about agenda, and that was a turn-off to me....It just felt like another religion...
Well, Ex, in the broad sense of the terms, yes. Those are the bait. But vp's influence was more foundational.
His "methods" appealed to the basest human motives. He was able to bring into the inner sanctum, those whom he tested and found to have gaping cracks in their character and lusted after the same things in life that he lusted after.
If he found a character flaw, he worked it...like a drug pusher...a little at a time...until, before one realized it, one was "sharing fully" in his spiritual debauchery and rape of God's people.
I was tested, too. Didn't realize it at the time, but had I accepted the "bait" when it was offered, I was told there was more "fun" available than I could imagine.
vp's methods had become planned, intentional, evil and self-serving. I saw it first hand, but he couldn't get rid of me cause I wasn't corps, and no one else could do my job. We had an unspoken arrangement, of sorts. He got soooo bad by the mid 80s, just his presence made me physically ill to be around him, and I left. I still get sick to my stomach when I smell drambue!!
i'm sad and sorry
don't be too hard on yourself. you were touched by the master's hand.....
As Krys said, their attempt to "make" the Body of Christ work and operate and function together was, I thought Biblical. I had never seen another group even try, so that kept me involved for a long time.
Looking back, if they had simply "let" the Body function, things would have been much better, imo.
Krys, it isn`t God that I doubt. I mistrust twi. I mistrust any understanding of God or spirituality aquired there....I don`t believe that a loving God would have lured us there to learn.......not if it meant that some of us were to die so that others could benefit.
I can however see a case being made for it being a cleverly laid snare. *For in vain is the snare set in sight of the bird* from proverbs comes to mind.
Disguise the trap with enough scriptures, prayers activities and we enter willingly assuming that it is a spiritually wholesome, God centered group....
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Listener
Thief?? In the end, his heart's corruption went far deeper than that. Thief is almost a compliment.
Current leadership learned from the master (vp), who spent half of his life slowly becomming infected.
Of course, LCM, the master student, carried the torch as far as he could. He picked up the torch from vp that eventually would burn TWI to the ground.
TWI was the outward manefestation of the internal reality and presence of vp's heart. In other words, as vp went, so went TWI.
And, yes, I believe. I believe in my Father and His Son, my brother Jesus Christ, and that their love for me will never fail. Beyond that, I read the bible and glean as much good as my feeble mind can handle. I've lost all trust in scholars and "right-dividers". My bible says "even a fool need not err therein". That's me, and I'm taking Him at his word!!
Thus speaketh the newbie!!
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rascal
Well said newbie!
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excathedra
welcome listener !!!!!
--
what keeps new leaders motivated ? power money cush lifestyle the same old same old..... don't you think ?
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Listener
Well, Ex, in the broad sense of the terms, yes. Those are the bait. But vp's influence was more foundational.
His "methods" appealed to the basest human motives. He was able to bring into the inner sanctum, those whom he tested and found to have gaping cracks in their character and lusted after the same things in life that he lusted after.
If he found a character flaw, he worked it...like a drug pusher...a little at a time...until, before one realized it, one was "sharing fully" in his spiritual debauchery and rape of God's people.
I was tested, too. Didn't realize it at the time, but had I accepted the "bait" when it was offered, I was told there was more "fun" available than I could imagine.
vp's methods had become planned, intentional, evil and self-serving. I saw it first hand, but he couldn't get rid of me cause I wasn't corps, and no one else could do my job.
We had an unspoken arrangement, of sorts. He got soooo bad by the mid 80s, just his presence made me physically ill to be around him, and I left. I still get sick to my stomach when I smell drambue!!
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excathedra
dear listener, did he really say "fun" ? that's upsetting
he found my character flaw..... being sexually abused as a child.....
he worked on me for YEARS
sad sick
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excathedra
by YEARS i mean 5 or 6
and honestly i shared fully against my will or better judgment (from my mom)
but my brain was screwy more than before
i watched it happen "out of body"
it was horrible
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rascal
(((Ex)))
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Listener
Yup. "Fun" And yes, it is sickening.
My heart breaks for you, Ex. I thank God you are out and FREE.
So is our Father!!...(glad to see you out of that crap) :)
(editted for clarity)
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excathedra
thanks listener
sorry but my head is still reeling from this one
somewhere in me i thought maybe he really believed he was supposed to heal me
(ps. barf)
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Listener
Ex, that reference was in light of the "cig", and that more "fun" was available.
As twisted as vp became, I can't claim to know what went on in his mind. I don't, and won't.
Maybe he really did convince himself that he could heal you by doing what he did to you and others. Who of us really knows?
But, I can know them by their fruits. That's where the rubber meets the road.
I won't preach to you, Ex. I'll not even offer a suggestion as to a path to follow, except to say.....
turn your eyes to our Father, and His Son, and let THEIR "touch" heal your heart.
Only then will you be in "good hands".
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excathedra
what cig ?
and yes don't preach to me
tanks
oh yeah i see the cig
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excathedra
did he steal a cig ?
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RainbowsGirl
This was one of the hardest posts for me to ever read; because I did drink all the Koolaid and never really knew how many beautiful hearts were being broken and trashed...and used and abused with fore-thought and malice. I don't think I will ever truly understand why they could want the things they did at the price they've caused so many to pay on their behalf; and they have become so passed feeling real love! I think with what so many of you have said (especially you Excathedra and Listener) I can finally understand how and why the current leadership of TWI can continue on...although I am very glad they cannot continue on in the style that they had become accustom to financially...at least I hope they cannot!!!!
Without TWI, I would most likely not have learned as much about God as I have, nor would my son or adopted from online daughter have eternal life; nor would I have ever met and known such exquisite hearts as I have known Here and back then!
I deeply Love and respect You All no matter what you believe at this point and I am thankful for all the things i have learned from you all.... and I Hope that we have eternity together.... and please know I am not ready to know, if that is a myth.....
Love You All(((((((((((All))))))))))))))))), RainbowsGirl
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waysider
RG
For what it's worth, I still believe that at least that part of it was not a myth.
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excathedra
i don't think i meant that
well, the barf part i did....
how gross he was
ugh
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krys
I believed! And I was truly fortunate in that I never spent any time at HQ. For me, the real goodies in PFAL were few, but very compelling; how the church was supposed to be structured and operate; the way the one body is supposed to operate;how to read and understand the Bible - in a general sense, not as twi tweaked it later on.
Except for those things that Raf has so carefully written about in his treatise on the errors in it, I think I believe everything that was taught.
The information in JCOP and JCOPS draws me close to God even today.
BUT everything else IMHO and ymmv is just rotten road-kill.
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rascal
Guess I have trouble believing any of it any more. I mean if God is as all knowing and powerfull as he is purported to be.....why would he lead ALL of us to a group of men who he knew would rape some of us, knew would cause some of us to die, knew would destroy some of our lives in order that some others of us could come to a knowledge of him?
That is a pretty ugly accusation to lay at the feet of someone who purportedly loves us and desires for us to know him better.
It would certainly seem to negate the parable concerning the value of the single lost sheep.
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krys
Rascal, and everybody else who holds these thoughts:
it wasn't God who "lured" you into PFAL and thus the ministry. Everybody puts the blame OR the credit On God.
God is. God exists. He lives! He has His set of rules. He loves with an unfathomable love.
TWI was not, and is not, and never was God. The organization sent out it's reapers and collectors to collect people to pay money for a class. We did pay the money. We sat through the class. We followed along.....we did this because we became indoctrinated with lies. We didn't have the whole truth. I don't think you can blame all the rotten stuff that went on on God. You can blame it on people who were acting "on his behalf" or so they thought. It was a nasty religion that we were part of.
God is so much bigger than any organization. Learn to separate the 2.
I can't explain why I stuck around so long. I guess I was mesmerized as well for a long time. But we are out now. NOW is the time for us to do something else with out lives. We are still God's kids, and he cares for us very very much.
We were indoctrinated to believe them and every other church or even bible thumper was evil, off the Word, filled with debbles. So - that's how we learned to think. We have to UNlearn that part. Now it is most probably true that no person, organization, denomination etc has the Truth and teaches it. I doubt that any such has it all at this moment. But that doesn't mean we can't use the truth we know.
I don't know why people perish in fires, or why cute dogs get run over by cars or specifically why anything like that happens. I don't believe that God knows in a predetermined preordained manner what each of us will do at any given time. He knows us according to our fruit, our hearts, our actions.
Please - - don't toss God out with a rotten bottom-dwelling poison peddling pack of showmen. Please. God is so much more than that...and I think you know it.
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Lori
I can't honestly say I believed at all at first. It took time for my processors to sift through the information. I was intrigued...and as time went on, I began to accept the information because it was starting to make sense....I started to see some things fit, but this took at least 2 years...
I didn't accept everything. The more I worked the word on my own, and saw it for myself, I was more willing to believe it. But Eve, and the serpent thing, that was something I've never been sure of.
The thing that bothered me the most was people didn't know how to put the word into practical application, and teachings especially in the 90's and up were often condemnation and if you don't line it up.....As time progressed, any inspiration that used to be in teachings, especially from HQ, were gone.
It was all about agenda, and that was a turn-off to me....It just felt like another religion...
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excathedra
dear listener
i hope you come back
i was making no sense
i'm sorry
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excathedra
and i thank you for this
i'm sad and sorry
don't be too hard on yourself. you were touched by the master's hand.....
many hugs
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Listener
Don't be sorry, Ex. It was my own fault.
I'll be back later.
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waterbuffalo
Interesting dialogue. Thanks everyone.
I DIDN'T believe all of it, ever.
As Krys said, their attempt to "make" the Body of Christ work and operate and function together was, I thought Biblical. I had never seen another group even try, so that kept me involved for a long time.
Looking back, if they had simply "let" the Body function, things would have been much better, imo.
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rascal
Krys, it isn`t God that I doubt. I mistrust twi. I mistrust any understanding of God or spirituality aquired there....I don`t believe that a loving God would have lured us there to learn.......not if it meant that some of us were to die so that others could benefit.
I can however see a case being made for it being a cleverly laid snare. *For in vain is the snare set in sight of the bird* from proverbs comes to mind.
Disguise the trap with enough scriptures, prayers activities and we enter willingly assuming that it is a spiritually wholesome, God centered group....
It is the only thing that makes sense to me.
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