"holy thing"

[Larry N Moore]

BTW, did my overly serious attitude kill off the thread.

Now, now don't you concern yourself. It'll be alright. If I can remember what the topic was.

I really did enjoy the comments about nuts and eggs.

Somehow it doesn't seem right to use nuts and eggs in the same sentence. They just don't go together. but who cares.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[another spot]

It seems to me we’ve covered Jesus’ origins, talked about his upbringing and the logical thing might be to talk about him. I personally would like to take a second look at some of the “difficult” verses, such as the one about Godhead mentioned earlier. I was wondering if we could examine them from neither a non-Trinitarian nor Trinitarian view, but simply with an open mind and fresh thinking. Anyone into it?

I agree eggs and nuts don’t belong in the same sentence. Speaking of disgusting food, my son’s fiancée is a picky eater but really likes canned corned beef hash. They are coming to visit, and I volunteered to make some from scratch for her. He said she wouldn’t eat it unless it looked like cat food…

[Jeaniam]

I'm in.

[Larry N Moore]

I personally would like to take a second look at some of the “difficult” verses, such as the one about Godhead mentioned earlier.

Can you refresh my memory? What verses did you have in mind? And if you don't mind, would you share what you think they mean and how you arrived at that meaning.

[another spot]

Larry, I think Mark mentioned it. I don’t remember for sure. I haven’t studied them, so I can’t answer your questions. I was just thinking of looking at some of the ones that are hotly debated, divinity/not divinity with no theology in mind, but just look at them. I have never done this. I just took twi’s word for it. I’m not really interested in taking anyone’s word for it. Just take up the trail and see where it goes. All along this thread has been re-examining Jesus, so might as well continue. (I would also like to look at first and last Adam and the I AM phrase). I suppose my real question is do I really know who he was/is? I know what twi said. Since we already know some things weren't quite right, there may be more.

I have been doing a systematic review of what Jesus said about himself preparation of this.

Jhn 8:23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jhn 8:24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

Jhn 8:25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even [the same] that I said unto you from the beginning.

Jhn 8:26I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

Jhn 8:27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

Jesus began by saying he was the light of the world. An argument ensued, but the point was in order for them to not die in their sins, they had to believe he was the Messiah and not of this world but of the Father.

Compare to:

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

NIV gives:

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

“Lord” is kurios. According to Thayer’s, “to Jesus as the Messiah, since by his death he acquired a special ownership in mankind, and after his resurrection was exalted to a partnership in the divine administration.”

I checked other translations that also give “Jesus is Lord.” I think there is a major difference between confess “Lord Jesus” in the sense of title, compared to the sense of ownership of “Jesus is Lord”.

Edited June 12, 2007 by another spot

[Larry N Moore]

another spot -- those are some excellent verses to consider. I'll give them some thought and respond as best as I can later. Getting ready to go earn some money to pay for the privilege of even having an online discussion.

[another spot]

P.S.

Act 10:36The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

NIV: You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

To be honest with you, I never once considered Romans 10:9 in light of this, until this morning. It isn’t enough to believe God raised him from the dead. It is acknowledging and believing God made him Lord over all. Nifty. Doesn't that make more sense and isn't it more meaningful than "confess the Lord Jesus?" Especially if you consider it in light of the verses in John. In the same manner they would die in their sins if they didn't believe who Jesus was, we make that confession in light of who he is. Not someone with a title, but his position and authority. Nifty, nifty.

[Sunesis]

After I had been out of TWI for awhile, this one hit me like a ton of bricks:

He was in the world, and though the world was made through him the world did not recognize him. He came to his own, but his own did not receive him. John 1:10-11.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only who came from the Father full of grace and truth. John 1:14

After spending that day reading the Gospel of John, I got the impression, he had been somewhere else before he came to this earth.

My other favorite: Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing... Phil. 2:6

And the one that summed it up for me: For in Christ all the fullness of the Diety lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ... Col. 2:9

All quotes from the NIV Study Bible (I just like the NIV, darnit).

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sunesis

[Larry N Moore]

Another spot, I've been reading and re-reading the verses you cited and the one that keeps standing out for me is verse 23

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

When Jesus said they (the Pharisees) were "from beneath" surely that had to be a figure of speech rather than a literal fact. If this is true -- that saying they were "from beneath" wasn't literally true, then why wouldn't it follow that, when he said "I am from above" would likewise be a figure of speech rather than a literal fact?

[WordWolf]

Another spot, I've been reading and re-reading the verses you cited and the one that keeps standing out for me is verse 23

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

When Jesus said they (the Pharisees) were "from beneath" surely that had to be a figure of speech rather than a literal fact. If this is true -- that saying they were "from beneath" wasn't literally true, then why wouldn't it follow that, when he said "I am from above" would likewise be a figure of speech rather than a literal fact?

I don't think that's such a sure thing.

Look at the contrasts right there in the verse

"you are from beneath" versus "I am from above"

"you are of this world" versus "I am not of this world"

Consider this set of non-figures.

"You are from there" versus "I am from here"

"You are not of this town" versus "I am of this town".

Going back to the original example,

if Jesus is contrasting "this world" (i.e. EARTH) with not of this world (i.e. HEAVEN),

then those from beneath are of this world (i.e. EARTH),

while those from above are not of this world (i.e. HEAVEN.)

They were of Earth and minded earthly things, he was of heaven and minded heavenly things.

Heaven is "above" earth by everyone's measure, whether you mean the atmosphere,

or space, or God's Throneroom.

=========

An entirely separate can of worms is the flexibility of the prepositions in Greek.

We might say "from this", "for this world", "in this world", "of this world."

A born-again Christian may be considered "from" this world, for he was born here,

or "from" God if he was sent to a place by an order from God.

He would be "for this world" in a sense of helping it, but "not for this world" in his preferences

and his destination.

He would be "in this world" for that is where he walks, but not "of this world" for he is

God's and thus "of heaven."

In Greek, however, with the same preposition translated ALL of those things at different times,

it is difficult to draw a conclusion affected by a preposition.

THERE I see PLENTY of room for disagreement.

[ChattyKathy]

This might be way out there but could it be where their intentions were being generated from. The Pharisees from a earthly dark place and Jesus from a heavenly light place? Thus above and beneath.

(this thread continues to be of interest to me even though I haven't posted much, I've enjoyed y'all's thought processes)

[WordWolf]

This might be way out there but could it be where their intentions were being generated from. The Pharisees from a earthly dark place and Jesus from a heavenly light place? Thus above and beneath.

Easily possible. I don't even see it as "either/or" with what I posted.

Both could be meant- after all, he said it twice...

[another spot]

I pretty much avoid Greek since I am no expert and go to it only when helpful. However, ye are of (ek) this world, I am not of (ek) this world. Ek refers to origin which you can get that sense from the verse and context.

So, we can understand you originate from this world (you have earthly parents). I did not originate from this world (my father is from heaven). If you read the entire chapter 8, then you see the argument was about their origins (we be of Abraham’s seed etc).

From beneath I understood to mean below heaven because the next clause defines the first. Beneath equals world, above equals heaven.

We talked earlier about Jesus when he was young. He had been missing for 3 days. When Mary and Joseph found him, he was in the temple. They were really upset. He was really surprised and said something along the lines of “don’t you know I am about my Father’s business?” By age 12, he clearly understood he was the Messiah, his father was God, and identified himself primarily in the sense of the Son of God. What was really important to him was God was his father. This was the great significance of his life and what made him who he was.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

Jesus is declaring an earthly origin by way of Mary and his current status. It isn’t that he didn’t know about Mary (back in John 8), it’s just that the main thing, what made him the messiah, was the fact that God was the father. No God the father, no messiah, no Son of God. So, “I am from above” is literally true because God was the source and the cause. God originated Jesus. Jesus is from above because God is from above.

Also, Jesus was stressing in John 8 not Mary, but a heavenly origin. He was trying to get the Pharasees (sp?) to get it that he was the messiah, he was sent by God, and God was his father. If they couldn’t get that, they would die in their sins. They never did get it. They were stuck on earthly origin and earthly parents. We be of Abraham’s seed. Who the heck are you?

Well, that’s how I understood it. I am not the best writer in the whole world. Larry, I hope that made some sense.

Edited for something I meant to say just the opposite....

Edited June 13, 2007 by another spot

[T-Bone]

I pretty much avoid Greek since I am no expert and go to it only when helpful...

Two references that I’ve found helpful – even for beginners -

There’s a handy Biblical Greek laminated quick reference sheets for $6.99 here:

http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Greek-Zonde...s/dp/0310262941

And one for Biblical Hebrew costing $6.99:

http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Hebrew-Zond...907&sr=1-17

[another spot]

Thanks, T-bone!

John 8:27 NIV They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.

That is a summary statement for the particular section of John 8 we’ve been talking about. I think that nails it down. Jesus addresses different people at different times in this chapter.

[Larry N Moore]

Larry, I hope that made some sense.

Another spot -- if it didn't I wouldn't give it much thought. Which means you made some very good points to consider.

[another spot]

Thanks, Larry. You’ve got a good head on your shoulders. Likewise the rest of the contributors on this thread.

Yep, Kathy, I think that element is there too. I think that is why Jesus said he is the light of the world. Well one reason.

[sirguessalot]

my 2 cents

i think chatty pointed right at it

...it is about the attitudes and intentions that cause behaviour

very very loosely...

to "come from below" is to move upward...to want to get to a better state...as in improvement

describes those who are still looking for eternal life, salvation, perfection, liberation, peace, nirvana, etc...

to "come from above" is to move downward...to want to get to a worse state....as in surrender

describes those who prefer neither heaven nor hell, and would rather serve where the needs are...in hell

for thousands of years...human history was naturally about the upward climb..where earth was seen a dirty painful mortal place

the early prophets and saints were typically dudes who spent a lot of time in silence in order to escape mortality..those first upward movers

so it was a leap in awareness to intentionally descend like jesus did

and to recognize that the next huge change that needed to happen was this descending current of intention from our highest places

but i think we tend to read so much myth into the story that we miss the practical understanding that comes with "ascension" and "descension"

...we miss the point by trying to pinpont an accuracy and force concrete meanings to words and notions that were never there in the first place

much of ancient jewish thought commonly used stories of otherworldy places and otherworldy characters to teach profound and living lessons

and imo, this makes the stories of the Bible more and more valuable...not less

in our concern for our safety (in our own "coming from below")

we often simply get lost in the words and lose our capacity to discern how these currents manifest in the world

where thousands of years later, mere ascension alone is still so dominant in our thought

...and in the name of jesus?

:blink:

i dunno

and i suppose it wouldnt help any more if i was to add that "above" is also referring to that which is inward

and "below" is that which is outward

Edited June 13, 2007 by sirguessalot

[cman]

i reckon the tough thing is to change perceptions

to change from 'thus saith the Lord' to 'what is he or it saying now'

what is being felt experienced known only to know again

what is being communicated not in definitions but concepts

-concepts-a limited word itself

a much broader perspective then anticipated when in it

there will be no so called contradictions

but failure to see other concepts

locking into one when so many others abound and flow together

[ChattyKathy]

Thanks for your responses y'all and Todd you said what I was thinking with much deeper and understanding which was very cool to read.

(I love reading you folks here, you help my head get smarter)

[cman]

i'm not quite fluent in touching the heart

i tend to speak too plainly and directly

which puts peoples guards up

it's not my intent

but to get one to consider another pov fully

it's an art i have not mastered

and i know that pov will change for me as well

i should do like mark omalley

and put some kind of disclaimer as a tag..lol

changes are happening in many and will happen in all

step by step, glimpses and seeings and harmony and

the ones that want to fight too, avoiding that, is to be like the wind

[ChattyKathy]

The way words are served has always fascinated me but you can get the same point across with a few also. That's one of the things that makes us humans so cool.

[johniam]

Another interesting point is that the phrase 'born again' can be translated 'born from above'. So are we also 'from above' once we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead? Just a thought.

Well, ladies and gentlemen; we're going on vacation. See you in a week. Have interesting discussions, and I'll catch up when we get back.

Oops, I forgot AGAIN. This is Jean, not John, but I guess it doesn't matter since we're both going.

[ChattyKathy]

Have a safe and fun trip Jean.

[ChattyKathy]

I have no idea where to post this but wanted to somewhere so what the heck.

Hubby was Mr. Ambassador in this picture: