Recently, I got a CD from a person that still really likes Wierwille on Ephesians. Specifically, it spoke about "heresy" (not being like minded) and causing division in the church. Prior to that, I had been emailing this person and when I mentioned my book, The Genesis Pursuit, I got a non-response on it on return email, as if I hadn't written this at all, but was told I would be sent a CD. I got the CD and the subject was about heresy and division in the Christian church.
I am wondering, from those who read the book, if they believe it was "heresy" and if I am "causing division", or is this a possible attempt to stop me from promoting the book.
Your thoughts, please. I am also wondering if there was any talk of "banning" the book or any leader speaking against it.
This is the first I've heard of the book, but it sounds interesting. I googled it and found your web site. Doesn't sound too "heretical" to me, but I haven't read it.
I was curious also about Patrick Her*n's books you mention at the bottom of the page. Is he related to Mick Her*n? We knew Mick from the 9th Corps.
Wanted to say, congratulations on getting your book published!
This is the first I've heard of the book, but it sounds interesting. I googled it and found your web site. Doesn't sound too "heretical" to me, but I haven't read it.
I was curious also about Patrick Her*n's books you mention at the bottom of the page. Is he related to Mick Her*n? We knew Mick from the 9th Corps.
Wanted to say, congratulations on getting your book published!
Thanks, WAW. Yes, as far as Patrick Heron, he was also known as "Mick" Heron from the 9th Corps. He goes by Patrick Heron or "Paddy" Heron as well. Yes, he wrote that book on my website and it is a bestseller. You can order it from Amazon.
Waysider, I probably should shrug it off, but after years in TWI, it still dumbfounds me that people are STILL out there thinking anything that contradicts "Doctor" is either heresy or dividing the church.
I was once at a Burning the Chaff weekend at TWI many years ago after the split, and I was still one of the faithful ones at that time. One of the things that began my re-thinking of TWI was seeing one giggling group of believers take one of John Lynn's books formerly published by American Christian Press (TWI) and throw it into the fire. It was a copy of Will the Real You Please Stand Up and my joy of the occasion just got sucked out after I saw that happen. It shocked me so bad that I didn't look to see LCMs reaction to it. I don't think he said or did anything about it or maybe did not notice it. There was some laughter.
I never attended another Burn the Chaff. Ultimately, it was the beginning of the end of my involvement in TWI, though I didn't leave just then. I wasn't quite sure TWI encouraged or promoted that incident. The thinking on former believers, was sure wack at the time.
The person that sent me the CD is not involved in TWI anymore but still likes Wierwille. With this person there cannot be any deviation at all from PFAL.
I'll keep promoting my book, but if anyone has heard anything about "heresy" or banning it, let me know. Thanks.
I dunno.. the idea that somebody would refer to something ole doc vic taught (praise be his memory as long as it stays buried) as some kind of proof of "heresy"..
Is kinda "nutso".
Where are people's brains.. up an old mogster's rear end?
sorry..
it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.. at least to me.
It's like kinda like.. let me go get the Ouija board, conjure up the spirit of "st." vic, and see if it's OK.. sheesh.
let me go have another glass of cabernet.. maybe it will make more sense..
Recently, I got a CD from a person that still really likes Wierwille on Ephesians. Specifically, it spoke about "heresy" (not being like minded) and causing division in the church. Prior to that, I had been emailing this person and when I mentioned my book, The Genesis Pursuit, I got a non-response on it on return email, as if I hadn't written this at all, but was told I would be sent a CD. I got the CD and the subject was about heresy and division in the Christian church.
I am wondering, from those who read the book, if they believe it was "heresy" and if I am "causing division", or is this a possible attempt to stop me from promoting the book.
Your thoughts, please. I am also wondering if there was any talk of "banning" the book or any leader speaking against it.
I don't know you but you got mad skills for writer PLUS you are MEEK which is priceless in God's eye ya.
Also concerning "Born of Wrong Seed Subject" your highlights on subject is outstanding this will shakeup alot of high profile individuals. . U may get alot of opposition.
after leaving TWI in the 80's, I got branded a heretic by TWI'ers a few times , then a few years later by a few different church groups i was trying to join who found out that I had been with TWI.
No matter what you do, Im pretty sure someone somewhere will brand you a heretic, It seems to be a fairly popular 'christian' pastime....
It's sorta odd that a Wierwille follower would accuse anyone of 'causing division in the church, since Wierwille so vehemently hated most of christianity, and is himself a posterboy for heresy, but asking a Way follower to make sense never was an easy task.
Write whatever you want, there are about 5.999 Billion other living people that may find something valuable in it, no matter what someone who owns a CD may say
Yes, that's my web page and yes, the book can be purchased by clicking on the image of the book on any page in the website addressing the book. It will bring you straight to Amazon. It is the cheapest you can get. Barnes and Noble.com list it cheaper but not cheaper than Amazon. If ordering it from a Barnes & Noble bookstore, you would pay full retail price. Amazon is the best.
mstar1:
I completely agree on the other churches you spoke about. Some of them do the same as TWI.
Oh geeze, Eagle. Just to clear up some confusion..........
Mick and Paddy are NOT, I repeat NOT, the same person. Mick was indeed in the 9th corps. His brother, Paddy, was in one of the family corps, I do believe.
I know this for sure, as I spent some time with Mick last May, and asked after his brother.
Wow! I thought they were one and the same! Well, when people email Paddy, he will have to direct them to his brother Mick. Guess I'll be hearing from Paddy on that one!
Thanks, dmiller, and I do hope you enjoy the rest of the book. I think you are right. Perhaps TWI thinks we are ALL "heretics" at GS. Problem is, a few offshoots do, too!
Recently, I got a CD from a person that still really likes Wierwille on Ephesians.
[see trouble yet? I do...]
Specifically, it spoke about "heresy" (not being like minded) and causing division in the church.
["heresy"- "when what you teach contradicts what I teach"]
Prior to that, I had been emailing this person and when I mentioned my book, The Genesis Pursuit, I got a non-response on it on return email, as if I hadn't written this at all, but was told I would be sent a CD. I got the CD and the subject was about heresy and division in the Christian church.
[Naturally, they left out how vpw was really big on being divided from the rest of the
Christian Church, because it's ok if HE did it, but wrong if anyone ELSE does it.
Can you say "hypocrite"? I knew you could.]
I am wondering, from those who read the book, if they believe it was "heresy" and if I am "causing division", or is this a possible attempt to stop me from promoting the book.
I haven't read it, but I'm confident it's neither "heresy" nor "causing division" to REASONABLE
Christians. The UNreasonable ones don't even need an excuse to disapprove- they'll invent one
if you don't provide any.
Of COURSE it's an attempt to stop you from promoting your book.]
Your thoughts, please. I am also wondering if there was any talk of "banning" the book or any leader speaking against it.
[None that I've heard, but naturally, I'm interested in your book now.
Then again, I picked up a copy of the "Satanic Verses" as soon as someone said I shouldn't.]
I must confess, I have not read your book yet.
Still, for someone to send you a CD rather that come right out and give your an opinion makes the person appear to have an agenda.
I'm not saying they do. Maybe that's just the way they are.
It kind of looks to me, though, that contradicting"The Doctor" may be the sore point in this scenario.
If you are confident in what you wrote, I would give it the big "shrug".
just my 2 cents.
That's how I see it, too.
No matter what you do, Im pretty sure someone somewhere will brand you a heretic, It seems to be a fairly popular 'christian' pastime....
It's sorta odd that a Wierwille follower would accuse anyone of 'causing division in the church, since Wierwille so vehemently hated most of christianity, and is himself a posterboy for heresy, but asking a Way follower to make sense never was an easy task.
Write whatever you want, there are about 5.999 Billion other living people that may find something valuable in it, no matter what someone who owns a CD may say
I've been branded a "heretic", too. Mostly by more conventional Christians, but I presume
that some ex-twi'ers have put me on a dartboard by now, if only for the "wonderland" threads.
Heresy --- to whom???
Heresy (imo) is defined by the person/ group leveling the accusation,
and therefore the accusation is (imo) compromised -- since it is from ONE viewpoint.
If you are (and you are) presenting valid points that shoot down docvic/ twi *doctrine*,
certainly they will rally and call you every name in the book. You're a threat to them.
Shucks -- we're ALL heretics here on GreaseSpot Cafe -- as pertains to twi.
The main difference between you and the posters here is ----
This is the first I've heard of your book. Can you give me a general idea of what it covers? I've been called a heretic enough times for it not to bother me much, so if I were you I would probably shrug it off (as others have said).
This is the first I've heard of your book. Can you give me a general idea of what it covers? I've been called a heretic enough times for it not to bother me much, so if I were you I would probably shrug it off (as others have said).
Wordwolf and Jeanism:
Thanks for responding. Well, I have to assume neither of you care if you're called a "heretic" or not. The book has 12 chapters, disputes many of Wierwille's doctrines in PFAL and other teachings, including his conclusions on "The Fall of Man", "Born Again of the Wrong Seed or also called Seed of the Serpent", "The Unforgivable Sin", why Christians cannot be "possessed", the Four Crucified with Christ, the Six Denials of Peter, and other issues. In other words, a great deal of what he taught. The book also studies the the Woman Caught in Adultery, the Lake of Fire and the Da Vinci Code.
To sum it up, while my old website was up, I got emails telling me how "off the Word" I was from TWI members and ex-TWI members from some off-shoots. After the book, the emails pretty much stopped, and old friends that we used to hang with formerly of TWI ceased all contact with my wife and I.
Lately, I got that CD with the heresy teaching. It didn't directly call me a heretic, just a teaching about how different doctrines among the Ephesians caused division and was called heresy. I got the point. I have to assume I was "causing division" by teaching "heresy".
My wife and I have found new friends in a local church. We just moved on. I have to tell people up front that the book opposed Wierwille's stand on those issues. I think even some at GS may be offended, though here I am not "marked and avoided" or branded teaching "heresy".
The website again for a review of the book and how to get to the site on Amazon is:
This is the first I've heard of your book. Can you give me a general idea of what it covers? I've been called a heretic enough times for it not to bother me much, so if I were you I would probably shrug it off (as others have said).
Jean- click on the link above. His website gives a synopsis and some exerpts.
Eagle, what I have read of it is very good. I have yet been able to sit down and just read it but what I have read do not seem heretical to me. But then again I don't have "Way brain" anymore either. Found a cure for that problem.
Thanks so much! You must have a copy of the book. The book being long, detailed and exhaustive, you need a bookmark.
The purpose of that was that while I was with TWI, we were always told to "Chapter and Verse" everything, thus 10 pages of scripture index used in a book 557 pages long. Also needed was history, archeology and chronology of texts used in the chapters, 10 more pages of subject index. References, notes, and illustrations took another 10 pages.
Problem was, even after all that, I was accused of "not using the Word". I kid you not. I have to assume they meant the Word as brought forth by VPW.
I read your bio in your member profile and your attached webpage and I was fascinated by your life story.
The ones who think this heresy most likely take offense to chapters 2, 3, 4, 8, and 9. There are 12 chapters. The main thrust is to prove that the devil was not as powerful as TWI promoted. I debated the seed of the Serpent, a critical Way Doctrine, the Unforgivable Sin, another critical Way doctrine associated with the Seed of the Serpent theory, and debated if those with the Holy Spirit of God could really be possessed if God was within them, which drove a lot of them nuts. I also defended the traditional two crucified with Christ instead of four, and defended the traditional three denials of Peter rather than six.
Looking at your bio, the only chapter you may not agree with is the one where I discuss the history of the Lake of Fire. Then again, who knows?
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wrdsandwrks
This is the first I've heard of the book, but it sounds interesting. I googled it and found your web site. Doesn't sound too "heretical" to me, but I haven't read it.
I was curious also about Patrick Her*n's books you mention at the bottom of the page. Is he related to Mick Her*n? We knew Mick from the 9th Corps.
Wanted to say, congratulations on getting your book published!
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waysider
I must confess, I have not read your book yet.
Still, for someone to send you a CD rather that come right out and give your an opinion makes the person appear to have an agenda.
I'm not saying they do. Maybe that's just the way they are.
It kind of looks to me, though, that contradicting"The Doctor" may be the sore point in this scenario.
If you are confident in what you wrote, I would give it the big "shrug".
just my 2 cents.
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Eagle
Thanks, WAW. Yes, as far as Patrick Heron, he was also known as "Mick" Heron from the 9th Corps. He goes by Patrick Heron or "Paddy" Heron as well. Yes, he wrote that book on my website and it is a bestseller. You can order it from Amazon.
Waysider, I probably should shrug it off, but after years in TWI, it still dumbfounds me that people are STILL out there thinking anything that contradicts "Doctor" is either heresy or dividing the church.
I was once at a Burning the Chaff weekend at TWI many years ago after the split, and I was still one of the faithful ones at that time. One of the things that began my re-thinking of TWI was seeing one giggling group of believers take one of John Lynn's books formerly published by American Christian Press (TWI) and throw it into the fire. It was a copy of Will the Real You Please Stand Up and my joy of the occasion just got sucked out after I saw that happen. It shocked me so bad that I didn't look to see LCMs reaction to it. I don't think he said or did anything about it or maybe did not notice it. There was some laughter.
I never attended another Burn the Chaff. Ultimately, it was the beginning of the end of my involvement in TWI, though I didn't leave just then. I wasn't quite sure TWI encouraged or promoted that incident. The thinking on former believers, was sure wack at the time.
The person that sent me the CD is not involved in TWI anymore but still likes Wierwille. With this person there cannot be any deviation at all from PFAL.
I'll keep promoting my book, but if anyone has heard anything about "heresy" or banning it, let me know. Thanks.
Eagle (Steve)
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polar bear
Eagle-I would like a copy of your book, how do I get it.
Also I would like to get in touch with Paddy, I knew him well. Can you pm me his email.
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Eagle
polar bear:
Sure, thanks...I'll PM you the link to Amazon where my book is being sold. It's cheaper there. I'll also PM Paddy's email address.
I'm glad no one here thinks I'm a heretic. Well, at least not yet.
Eagle
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year2027
God first
Beloved Steve or Eagle
God loves you my dear friend
I am glad you got your book out
I will have to look into getting it and reading it because I known alot of heart and late hours went into getting it ready
and Christ made waves with the Pharisee's of his time
so its great you made waves with your Pharisee's the Way Ministry
And you are not a heretic unless the meaning is child of God
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Ham
I dunno.. the idea that somebody would refer to something ole doc vic taught (praise be his memory as long as it stays buried) as some kind of proof of "heresy"..
Is kinda "nutso".
Where are people's brains.. up an old mogster's rear end?
sorry..
it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.. at least to me.
It's like kinda like.. let me go get the Ouija board, conjure up the spirit of "st." vic, and see if it's OK.. sheesh.
let me go have another glass of cabernet.. maybe it will make more sense..
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Ham
After a briskly consumed glass of cabernet, it still doesn't make sense..
hmm.
I think it is the mark of a small soul..
worshipping the "fleeting shadows of a few great(?) names.."
That's all I've got here..
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Captain Spiritural
http://www.genesispursuit.com/ <---- is this your web page and the book i can purchase?
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Captain Spiritural
I don't know you but you got mad skills for writer PLUS you are MEEK which is priceless in God's eye ya.
Also concerning "Born of Wrong Seed Subject" your highlights on subject is outstanding this will shakeup alot of high profile individuals. . U may get alot of opposition.
Keep Writing
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mstar1
Welcome to the 6th Circle.
Is it your first time here?
It was like home to me for a long time...
after leaving TWI in the 80's, I got branded a heretic by TWI'ers a few times , then a few years later by a few different church groups i was trying to join who found out that I had been with TWI.
No matter what you do, Im pretty sure someone somewhere will brand you a heretic, It seems to be a fairly popular 'christian' pastime....
It's sorta odd that a Wierwille follower would accuse anyone of 'causing division in the church, since Wierwille so vehemently hated most of christianity, and is himself a posterboy for heresy, but asking a Way follower to make sense never was an easy task.
Write whatever you want, there are about 5.999 Billion other living people that may find something valuable in it, no matter what someone who owns a CD may say
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Eagle
Yes, that's my web page and yes, the book can be purchased by clicking on the image of the book on any page in the website addressing the book. It will bring you straight to Amazon. It is the cheapest you can get. Barnes and Noble.com list it cheaper but not cheaper than Amazon. If ordering it from a Barnes & Noble bookstore, you would pay full retail price. Amazon is the best.
mstar1:
I completely agree on the other churches you spoke about. Some of them do the same as TWI.
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ex10
Oh geeze, Eagle. Just to clear up some confusion..........
Mick and Paddy are NOT, I repeat NOT, the same person. Mick was indeed in the 9th corps. His brother, Paddy, was in one of the family corps, I do believe.
I know this for sure, as I spent some time with Mick last May, and asked after his brother.
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dmiller
Eagle --
Thanks for taking the time to do the research and writing that you did. I've skimmed through parts of it,
but I basically jumped straight ahead to the 6 denials of Peter chapter .
From what I've seen there, you present a balanced, educated view supporting your premise.
Am looking forward to reading the rest of the book. :)
Heresy --- to whom???
Heresy (imo) is defined by the person/ group leveling the accusation,
and therefore the accusation is (imo) compromised -- since it is from ONE viewpoint.
If you are (and you are) presenting valid points that shoot down docvic/ twi *doctrine*,
certainly they will rally and call you every name in the book. You're a threat to them.
Shucks -- we're ALL heretics here on GreaseSpot Cafe -- as pertains to twi.
The main difference between you and the posters here is ----
you're published, and have an Amazon.com link!!
(Will there be a sequel??)
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Eagle
Ex-10:
Wow! I thought they were one and the same! Well, when people email Paddy, he will have to direct them to his brother Mick. Guess I'll be hearing from Paddy on that one!
Thanks, dmiller, and I do hope you enjoy the rest of the book. I think you are right. Perhaps TWI thinks we are ALL "heretics" at GS. Problem is, a few offshoots do, too!
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markomalley
I find it very ironic that anybody in or associated with TWI would have the sheer chutzpah to use the term 'heretic.'
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dmiller
Hmmmmm. Good point (er).
Maybe they meant ------
"Here-a-Tic, There-a-Tic, Everywhere-you-look-a-Tic.
Ole Doc Wierwille had a farm,
And not a poodle to be found!"
:)
WOOPS!! Wrong thread!
(My apologies -- dog-gone it!)
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WordWolf
[WordWolf in italics for variety.]
That's how I see it, too.
I've been branded a "heretic", too. Mostly by more conventional Christians, but I presume
that some ex-twi'ers have put me on a dartboard by now, if only for the "wonderland" threads.
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Jeaniam
This is the first I've heard of your book. Can you give me a general idea of what it covers? I've been called a heretic enough times for it not to bother me much, so if I were you I would probably shrug it off (as others have said).
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Eagle
Wordwolf and Jeanism:
Thanks for responding. Well, I have to assume neither of you care if you're called a "heretic" or not. The book has 12 chapters, disputes many of Wierwille's doctrines in PFAL and other teachings, including his conclusions on "The Fall of Man", "Born Again of the Wrong Seed or also called Seed of the Serpent", "The Unforgivable Sin", why Christians cannot be "possessed", the Four Crucified with Christ, the Six Denials of Peter, and other issues. In other words, a great deal of what he taught. The book also studies the the Woman Caught in Adultery, the Lake of Fire and the Da Vinci Code.
To sum it up, while my old website was up, I got emails telling me how "off the Word" I was from TWI members and ex-TWI members from some off-shoots. After the book, the emails pretty much stopped, and old friends that we used to hang with formerly of TWI ceased all contact with my wife and I.
Lately, I got that CD with the heresy teaching. It didn't directly call me a heretic, just a teaching about how different doctrines among the Ephesians caused division and was called heresy. I got the point. I have to assume I was "causing division" by teaching "heresy".
My wife and I have found new friends in a local church. We just moved on. I have to tell people up front that the book opposed Wierwille's stand on those issues. I think even some at GS may be offended, though here I am not "marked and avoided" or branded teaching "heresy".
The website again for a review of the book and how to get to the site on Amazon is:
The Genesis Pursuit: The Lost History of Jesus Christ
The book just say Wierwille (and Bullinger in some cases) was incorrect, but tries to find the correct interpretation of what they were promoting.
Hope this helps.
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JoePascha
Dear Steve:
Greetings in Christ.
Tell me about your book again? What is the main point that someone would accuse you of heresy?
Love in Christ,
Dn. Joe Pasquella
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Eyesopen
Jean- click on the link above. His website gives a synopsis and some exerpts.
Eagle, what I have read of it is very good. I have yet been able to sit down and just read it but what I have read do not seem heretical to me. But then again I don't have "Way brain" anymore either. Found a cure for that problem.
Love ya bro.
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Eagle
EyesOpen:
Thanks so much! You must have a copy of the book. The book being long, detailed and exhaustive, you need a bookmark.
The purpose of that was that while I was with TWI, we were always told to "Chapter and Verse" everything, thus 10 pages of scripture index used in a book 557 pages long. Also needed was history, archeology and chronology of texts used in the chapters, 10 more pages of subject index. References, notes, and illustrations took another 10 pages.
Problem was, even after all that, I was accused of "not using the Word". I kid you not. I have to assume they meant the Word as brought forth by VPW.
I hope you enjoy the rest of the book! God Bless!
Eagle
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Eagle
Joe:
I read your bio in your member profile and your attached webpage and I was fascinated by your life story.
The ones who think this heresy most likely take offense to chapters 2, 3, 4, 8, and 9. There are 12 chapters. The main thrust is to prove that the devil was not as powerful as TWI promoted. I debated the seed of the Serpent, a critical Way Doctrine, the Unforgivable Sin, another critical Way doctrine associated with the Seed of the Serpent theory, and debated if those with the Holy Spirit of God could really be possessed if God was within them, which drove a lot of them nuts. I also defended the traditional two crucified with Christ instead of four, and defended the traditional three denials of Peter rather than six.
Looking at your bio, the only chapter you may not agree with is the one where I discuss the history of the Lake of Fire. Then again, who knows?
God's best to you, Joe, and to your family!
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