There was always that "if you are listening." The logic that God would speak to you first implied you were listening (were in fellowship, had given you're 15%, etc.) Now, if someone came up to you and said that God told them to tell you, and you KNEW that God had not spoken to you and you spoke up - well they had the perfect comeback, "YOU DIDN'T HEAR HIM!"
Well, listening and hearing have different connotations. You can hear something and yet not listen to it in the sense of following up on what you hear. In essence the term means to me (based on the record of Paul) that you hear what God says to you but, choose to disobey anyways. We can do that, ya know? It's that free will thingy. That doesn't mean God is going to give up on you. So, my response to someone who said I wasn't "HEAR(ING) HIM!" would have probably been -- "What's that you say? I'm a little hard of hearing."
Eyes - I definitely remember being taught that there's a devil spirit named Jesus. I now say Jesus like a house-a-fire, but I have a stow-ry for ya.
A few years ago I moved to MO to live where some ex-way folks said they had a great little community of believers endeavoring to live the Word. (Sorry - but it communicates so well.) I made friends with some folks and a lady and I were going shopping in the city. This requires a 30-minute drive. As we approached the interstate, this lady broached the subject of my "inability to say Jesus without saying Christ immediately after Jesus".
I could see she was on one of those missions to cure me of that spiritual problen.
She told me that she wasn't ex-way, but had been taught enough by some who were to know that it grieves God Himself that I can't say Jesus without adding Christ. She said stuff like that for several minutes, clearly leading up to a highlight of asking me if I thought I was able to say "Jesus" and not add "Christ" afterward. I told her yes, I could.
She asked me if I would say it that way. I responded, sure, I would.
She asked me if I could try to do it right then and there, with just she and I in the van. LOL I said yeah, I could.
She then asked me if I would.
So I mustered up a face to look like I was challenged and goofed around saying, "Jesus Ch-Ch-Chr." I did that about 3 times, then sort of sputtered and spat out Jesus, all by itself. LOL
I told her later that I was playing with her, but it was a hoot for me. She looked to me like I must've looked to hundreds of people - like a religious nut!!!
Oh Dooj darlin' did you have to quote him? Now his voice is resounding in my skull...ohhhh I'm getting a headache!
Temple lady-did they really teach you that there was a Debil Sprit named Jesus? I remember being taught not to pray to him cause that was idolatry. And I remember being taught that we had to say Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus because just saying Jesus kept him in his "man" state and he had ascended beyond that.
Sorry Hon. ;)
I remember some BS teaching that there is debbil spurt named Jesus. I forgot the logic - but perhaps it had something to do with a verse in James.
Well, listening and hearing have different connotations. You can hear something and yet not listen to it in the sense of following up on what you hear. In essence the term means to me (based on the record of Paul) that you hear what God says to you but, choose to disobey anyways. We can do that, ya know? It's that free will thingy. That doesn't mean God is going to give up on you. So, my response to someone who said I wasn't "HEAR(ING) HIM!" would have probably been -- "What's that you say? I'm a little hard of hearing."
So Larry, please tell me why you left TWI? How long were you in and what was the final straw for you?
So Larry, please tell me why you left TWI? How long were you in and what was the final straw for you?
Although I don't think this is the appropriate thread for me to do so I'll share with you my portions of my letter of departure.
Dear xxx, June 15th, 1995
I'm writing this letter to you because, quite honestly, I don't think I can tell you face to face of my decision regarding what we discussed. Saying that, makes it obvious what that decision is. Nevertheless, I felt it necessary (although I can't tell you why) to at least inform you of that decision.
Of all the decisions I've had to make over the years none have compared to making this one because it carries an element of finality with it. Making it, therefore, is especially difficult because I realize that I'm in essence burning my bridges with a Ministry that I owe my life to. This is not something that I truly desire to do but I see no other recourse if I cannot align myself with the changes that are taking place in the Ministry.
If it was a simple matter of myself being hurt by my lack of whole-hearted commitment to this Ministry it would be easy to "fake it till I make it" (as someone once told me) but if it was to lead to someone else being hurt in "the body" my mind and heart is not prepared to have to answer to God for that now or later.
Making decisions are not always necessarily easy because we all want to make the right ones. I can't imagine why anyone would intentionally set out to make a wrong one and yet I know even that is possible.
You question why others did not stand up to leaders when they saw things they deemed to be wrong.
Yet, in your letter of departure, it is clearly obvious that you, yourself, had difficulty with these types of "face to face" confrontations.
I hope you don't take what I'm saying as a personal affront because I don't mean it that way.
I'm just trying to point out that what seems, in hindsight, should have been obvious, is not always so simple in the here and now world we live in.
Life is a whole lots more like a can of worms than a neatly organized tackle box!
waysider, no offense taken. However, I think you're overlooking something. That letter was written in response to a face to face confrontation over changes taking place in the Ministry. There was nothing left to discuss face to face. A face to face meeting telling them of my decision, in my mind, would have been pointless. It would only afford the person the opportunity to inform me that I was wrong and I'm not sure I would have been able to refrain from slapping them in the face.
Thanks for re-printing a piece of your departure letter. That took quite a bit of courage.
One thing that stood out as I read that letter was the part where you said that if it was just you who would be affected by staying in TWI, then you'd stay, but since others would also be affected by you staying, you had to leave.
Wow.
This is a perfect example of the self-sacrifice mindset that I referred to in the "Agape" thread a few weeks ago.
Point is ... we gotta take care of ourselves first, so we can take care of others. TWI convinced us that we were the low man on the totem pole. The Way Tree was a method of visualizing this, so that the vast majority of us considered ourselves to be unimportant and disposable "leaves" on the tree, while the twig leaders and branch leaders and limb leaders and so on were so very very important.
Well, I'm glad you got out, for whatever reason.
P.S. To consider that Jesus was present, rather than absent, would be to affirm life after death, or maybe even that Jesus was God, so VPW came up with the "absent Christ" bullsh!t to validate his other doctrines, as well as to promote the supremecy of the "Word" over anything else. And as was stated earlier, the "Word" equaled VPW's personal ... word.
1. Why did you leave? All I asked for was a simple statement . The letter you quoted said little. I know it makes total sense to you because you know what transpired to precipitate the letter in the first place.
2. How long were you in TWI?
3. What was the final straw for you? (Admittedly, questions 1 and 3 can be answered with one statement.)
I realize you don't have to answer. I don't believe these questions are inappropriate for this thread.
1. Why did you leave? All I asked for was a simple statement . The letter you quoted said little. I know it makes total sense to you because you know what transpired to precipitate the letter in the first place.
2. How long were you in TWI?
3. What was the final straw for you? (Admittedly, questions 1 and 3 can be answered with one statement.)
I realize you don't have to answer. I don't believe these questions are inappropriate for this thread.
doojable, I realize you're asking for details but, the details would be long and complicated to share with you in this venue. Allow me to extract one statement I made in my letter and then you might be able to surmise from it that many of things already discussed on this board were things that led to my departure.
I see no other recourse if I cannot align myself with the changes that are taking place in the Ministry.
I believe I mentioned that I was first introduced to TWI when I was 15. Took the PFAL class when I was 16 and left the ministry in 1995. So, doing the math I think that would be a approximately (I suck in math) 23 years.
There was no "final straw" per se other than being asked to make a decision. So I did.
You stayed after POP was introduced for about another eight years.
I'm hard pressed to believe that there weren't a lot of things you had to overlook.
Can you refresh my memory of what POP stood for?
Yeah, I had to overlook a lot of things. But I was accustomed to doing so even in my earlier years. Love has a way of covering a multitude of sins -- so it's been said. If I was to jump on believers for every thing they did wrong I would have had little time for much else. I remember a time (very early) when I was in the back yard of a couple who was in my "twig" and finding a patch of marijuana growing there. I said nothing to them. About a year later they thanked me for not saying anything even though they knew I saw it. I remember thinking that they might outgrow the use of it and if they didn't so what. They were a great couple.
"POP"= "Passing of a Patriarch", Chris Geer's lengthy description of his days spent with VPW as death knocked on his door.
You can read it in its entirety here at the GSC.
It's usually a good thing to read the many articles and documents available here before getting too overly consumed by the forums. Of course, the longer you have been "gone", the more catching up there is to do.
Personally, I spent my first month or so here just reading some of these articles and info. before even posting for my first time.
If there is a particular topic you would like to explore in a non- forum format, just ask someone for directions.
Yeah, I had to overlook a lot of things. But I was accustomed to doing so even in my earlier years. Love has a way of covering a multitude of sins -- so it's been said. If I was to jump on believers for every thing they did wrong I would have had little time for much else. I remember a time (very early) when I was in the back yard of a couple who was in my "twig" and finding a patch of marijuana growing there. I said nothing to them. About a year later they thanked me for not saying anything even though they knew I saw it. I remember thinking that they might outgrow the use of it and if they didn't so what. They were a great couple.
Larry, I didn't busy myself with the everyday things like finding marijuana in a backyard. I was in Manhattan and we just had a great time loving each other.
BUT - I was gone before Home Coordinators (formerly "Twig Coordinators", formerly "twig leaders") were required to look at W2 forms and paycheck stubs to determine if folks were being honest with their tithe. (Funny how that got legalized. It went from "free will giving" to mandantory fleecing.)
Basically, I never had a problem with folks living life and figuring out the ins and outs of keeping God and Jesus Christ at the center of it all. I always had a problem with leaders sticking their nose where it didn't belong, while not practicing what they preached.
"POP"= "Passing of a Patriarch", Chris Geer's lengthy description of his days spent with VPW as death knocked on his door.
You can read it in its entirety here at the GSC.
It's usually a good thing to read the many articles and documents available here before getting too overly consumed by the forums. Of course, the longer you have been "gone", the more catching up there is to do.
Personally, I spent my first month or so here just reading some of these articles and info. before even posting for my first time.
If there is a particular topic you would like to explore in a non- forum format, just ask someone for directions.
Hope that answers your question.
Oh that! Actually I've read that document (POP) long ago and it's one of many that I have stored on my computer for reference. I was in meetings with RD and JL when the issue first came up.
I agree with you that it's a good practice to do some reading before posting. It's not a bad idea but, I personally wouldn't spend a month doing so. My bad.
I always had a problem with leaders sticking their nose where it didn't belong, while not practicing what they preached.
Well, we share that pov. There was something about telling people that they should follow this rule or that rule that didn't sit well with me. What was that saying?: "I'd rather see a sermon than to hear one."
Unfortunately, yes. But he is VERY VERY quiet. Only a very few of his followers will speak up for him..
The secret to his success you know..
Interesting that the arrogance of twi isn't very functional outside of it's own walls..
I thought I read somewhere that he was closing down his ministry. Can't remember why other than I vaguely recall there being some internal conflict or a legal issue. Something about stealing the PFAL class material.
Yeah, the Debil Spurt named "Jesus" thing was a common topic here in AK.
As to God speaking to you first, from what I experienced first hand, God almost never spoke to me, per leadership, because I was not "meek to recieve". I, therefore, was on the receiving end of a barrage of information , advice, and demands on a daily basis.
Actually God, was speaking to me, what He was saying was "get out ! Get OUT Now!". So if leadership was really hearing from God, about what He wanted me to know, they would have been told to come to me with the following message-"You are to leave The Way International with your children immediately." Since that never happened, it is obvious that one of two things was happeining in their lives, they weren't listening either, or God never spoke to them about me.
- I was gone before Home Coordinators (formerly "Twig Coordinators", formerly "twig leaders") were required to look at W2 forms and paycheck stubs to determine if folks were being honest with their tithe. (Funny how that got legalized.
They did WHAT????!!!!!!???
You know, on the surface, this is a really horrible thing they did to people. I was gone long before that too. BUT. The reality is that no matter how bad this was, it was no different than the things they did when I was in that we should have left for.
When you think of the arrogance of TWI its SOO clear when one changes his perspective about it.
IN studying logic, you learn that the premise is "everything." Different "schools of logic" look at the same things and follow logical progressions and determine "truths" and ways of living that are "right" based on the progression as it relates to the premise.
Change the premise and the "truths" change as well as a lot of the actions that people take who are followers of that school of logic.
I used to think of TWI as something good that went bad, under the "power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely" theory. I don't think that way anymore. When I changed my premise I began seeing TWI totally differently. Arrogance was always an integral part of TWI. They just got worse & worse as time went by.
Oh it apparently got so bad here in North Texas that one woman told me that she was told she wasn't a Godly woman because she didn't have a "French manicure."
Now just think about this HCW - I was a MOM and an artist - how could I ever hope to be a "Godly woman" in their eyes???? I mean how are you gonna keep a nice set of tips on and play in sandboxes, make homemade bread, paint, finger paint, etc. .....
Maybe some mom's can do this - but I couldn't . I'm so glad I got out early!
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ChasUFarley
Wait a min... correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't that "Lord God Almighty" refer to God, the Father? Isn't the context about the Son of God?
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Larry N Moore
Well, listening and hearing have different connotations. You can hear something and yet not listen to it in the sense of following up on what you hear. In essence the term means to me (based on the record of Paul) that you hear what God says to you but, choose to disobey anyways. We can do that, ya know? It's that free will thingy. That doesn't mean God is going to give up on you. So, my response to someone who said I wasn't "HEAR(ING) HIM!" would have probably been -- "What's that you say? I'm a little hard of hearing."
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waysider
I remember the stuff about a devil spirit named Jesus, also.
I don't recall where it was taught.
It might have been in the Advanced Class as it seems to fit the profile for subject matter.
The "Lord God Almighty" thing.
Tain't nuttin' complicated about it.
VP just flat out screwed up that part of the session.
That's why we were TOLD to gloss over it and (as the current expression goes), put a spin on it.
I wish you could see this in the original!(class instructors manual, that is.
)
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bowtwi
Eyes - I definitely remember being taught that there's a devil spirit named Jesus. I now say Jesus like a house-a-fire, but I have a stow-ry for ya.
A few years ago I moved to MO to live where some ex-way folks said they had a great little community of believers endeavoring to live the Word. (Sorry - but it communicates so well.) I made friends with some folks and a lady and I were going shopping in the city. This requires a 30-minute drive. As we approached the interstate, this lady broached the subject of my "inability to say Jesus without saying Christ immediately after Jesus".
I could see she was on one of those missions to cure me of that spiritual problen.
She told me that she wasn't ex-way, but had been taught enough by some who were to know that it grieves God Himself that I can't say Jesus without adding Christ. She said stuff like that for several minutes, clearly leading up to a highlight of asking me if I thought I was able to say "Jesus" and not add "Christ" afterward. I told her yes, I could.
She asked me if I would say it that way. I responded, sure, I would.
She asked me if I could try to do it right then and there, with just she and I in the van. LOL I said yeah, I could.
She then asked me if I would.
So I mustered up a face to look like I was challenged and goofed around saying, "Jesus Ch-Ch-Chr." I did that about 3 times, then sort of sputtered and spat out Jesus, all by itself. LOL
I told her later that I was playing with her, but it was a hoot for me. She looked to me like I must've looked to hundreds of people - like a religious nut!!!
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doojable
Sorry Hon. ;)
I remember some BS teaching that there is debbil spurt named Jesus. I forgot the logic - but perhaps it had something to do with a verse in James.
So Larry, please tell me why you left TWI? How long were you in and what was the final straw for you?
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Larry N Moore
Although I don't think this is the appropriate thread for me to do so I'll share with you my portions of my letter of departure.
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waysider
Ya see, here's the thing, Mr. Moore,
You question why others did not stand up to leaders when they saw things they deemed to be wrong.
Yet, in your letter of departure, it is clearly obvious that you, yourself, had difficulty with these types of "face to face" confrontations.
I hope you don't take what I'm saying as a personal affront because I don't mean it that way.
I'm just trying to point out that what seems, in hindsight, should have been obvious, is not always so simple in the here and now world we live in.
Life is a whole lots more like a can of worms than a neatly organized tackle box!
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Larry N Moore
waysider, no offense taken. However, I think you're overlooking something. That letter was written in response to a face to face confrontation over changes taking place in the Ministry. There was nothing left to discuss face to face. A face to face meeting telling them of my decision, in my mind, would have been pointless. It would only afford the person the opportunity to inform me that I was wrong and I'm not sure I would have been able to refrain from slapping them in the face.
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Shifra
Larry,
Thanks for re-printing a piece of your departure letter. That took quite a bit of courage.
One thing that stood out as I read that letter was the part where you said that if it was just you who would be affected by staying in TWI, then you'd stay, but since others would also be affected by you staying, you had to leave.
Wow.
This is a perfect example of the self-sacrifice mindset that I referred to in the "Agape" thread a few weeks ago.
Point is ... we gotta take care of ourselves first, so we can take care of others. TWI convinced us that we were the low man on the totem pole. The Way Tree was a method of visualizing this, so that the vast majority of us considered ourselves to be unimportant and disposable "leaves" on the tree, while the twig leaders and branch leaders and limb leaders and so on were so very very important.
Well, I'm glad you got out, for whatever reason.
P.S. To consider that Jesus was present, rather than absent, would be to affirm life after death, or maybe even that Jesus was God, so VPW came up with the "absent Christ" bullsh!t to validate his other doctrines, as well as to promote the supremecy of the "Word" over anything else. And as was stated earlier, the "Word" equaled VPW's personal ... word.
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doojable
Larry - I asked you three things
1. Why did you leave? All I asked for was a simple statement . The letter you quoted said little. I know it makes total sense to you because you know what transpired to precipitate the letter in the first place.
2. How long were you in TWI?
3. What was the final straw for you? (Admittedly, questions 1 and 3 can be answered with one statement.)
I realize you don't have to answer. I don't believe these questions are inappropriate for this thread.
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Larry N Moore
doojable, I realize you're asking for details but, the details would be long and complicated to share with you in this venue. Allow me to extract one statement I made in my letter and then you might be able to surmise from it that many of things already discussed on this board were things that led to my departure.
I believe I mentioned that I was first introduced to TWI when I was 15. Took the PFAL class when I was 16 and left the ministry in 1995. So, doing the math I think that would be a approximately (I suck in math) 23 years.
There was no "final straw" per se other than being asked to make a decision. So I did.
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doojable
Ok - so you got in about 1972.
You stayed after POP was introduced for about another eight years.
I'm hard pressed to believe that there weren't a lot of things you had to overlook.
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waysider
LNM
Have you considered posting in "My Story"?
Long and complicated stories are welcomed there.
(Plus, sometimes newcomers get a free coffee and Danish!)
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Larry N Moore
Can you refresh my memory of what POP stood for?
Yeah, I had to overlook a lot of things. But I was accustomed to doing so even in my earlier years. Love has a way of covering a multitude of sins -- so it's been said. If I was to jump on believers for every thing they did wrong I would have had little time for much else. I remember a time (very early) when I was in the back yard of a couple who was in my "twig" and finding a patch of marijuana growing there. I said nothing to them. About a year later they thanked me for not saying anything even though they knew I saw it. I remember thinking that they might outgrow the use of it and if they didn't so what. They were a great couple.
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waysider
"POP"= "Passing of a Patriarch", Chris Geer's lengthy description of his days spent with VPW as death knocked on his door.
You can read it in its entirety here at the GSC.
It's usually a good thing to read the many articles and documents available here before getting too overly consumed by the forums. Of course, the longer you have been "gone", the more catching up there is to do.
Personally, I spent my first month or so here just reading some of these articles and info. before even posting for my first time.
If there is a particular topic you would like to explore in a non- forum format, just ask someone for directions.
Hope that answers your question.
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doojable
Larry, I didn't busy myself with the everyday things like finding marijuana in a backyard. I was in Manhattan and we just had a great time loving each other.
BUT - I was gone before Home Coordinators (formerly "Twig Coordinators", formerly "twig leaders") were required to look at W2 forms and paycheck stubs to determine if folks were being honest with their tithe. (Funny how that got legalized. It went from "free will giving" to mandantory fleecing.)
Basically, I never had a problem with folks living life and figuring out the ins and outs of keeping God and Jesus Christ at the center of it all. I always had a problem with leaders sticking their nose where it didn't belong, while not practicing what they preached.
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Larry N Moore
Oh that! Actually I've read that document (POP) long ago and it's one of many that I have stored on my computer for reference. I was in meetings with RD and JL when the issue first came up.
I agree with you that it's a good practice to do some reading before posting. It's not a bad idea but, I personally wouldn't spend a month doing so. My bad.
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Larry N Moore
Well, we share that pov. There was something about telling people that they should follow this rule or that rule that didn't sit well with me. What was that saying?: "I'd rather see a sermon than to hear one."
Btw -- Is Geer still in business?
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Ham
Unfortunately, yes. But he is VERY VERY quiet. Only a very few of his followers will speak up for him..
The secret to his success you know..
Interesting that the arrogance of twi isn't very functional outside of it's own walls..
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Larry N Moore
I thought I read somewhere that he was closing down his ministry. Can't remember why other than I vaguely recall there being some internal conflict or a legal issue. Something about stealing the PFAL class material.
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templelady
Yeah, the Debil Spurt named "Jesus" thing was a common topic here in AK.
As to God speaking to you first, from what I experienced first hand, God almost never spoke to me, per leadership, because I was not "meek to recieve". I, therefore, was on the receiving end of a barrage of information , advice, and demands on a daily basis.
Actually God, was speaking to me, what He was saying was "get out ! Get OUT Now!". So if leadership was really hearing from God, about what He wanted me to know, they would have been told to come to me with the following message-"You are to leave The Way International with your children immediately." Since that never happened, it is obvious that one of two things was happeining in their lives, they weren't listening either, or God never spoke to them about me.
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Larry N Moore
Well, be that as it may, I would wonder why God wasn't speaking to you prior to getting in telling you:
"STAY OUT! STAY OUT!"
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HCW
They did WHAT????!!!!!!???
You know, on the surface, this is a really horrible thing they did to people. I was gone long before that too. BUT. The reality is that no matter how bad this was, it was no different than the things they did when I was in that we should have left for.
When you think of the arrogance of TWI its SOO clear when one changes his perspective about it.
IN studying logic, you learn that the premise is "everything." Different "schools of logic" look at the same things and follow logical progressions and determine "truths" and ways of living that are "right" based on the progression as it relates to the premise.
Change the premise and the "truths" change as well as a lot of the actions that people take who are followers of that school of logic.
I used to think of TWI as something good that went bad, under the "power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely" theory. I don't think that way anymore. When I changed my premise I began seeing TWI totally differently. Arrogance was always an integral part of TWI. They just got worse & worse as time went by.
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doojable
Oh it apparently got so bad here in North Texas that one woman told me that she was told she wasn't a Godly woman because she didn't have a "French manicure."
Now just think about this HCW - I was a MOM and an artist - how could I ever hope to be a "Godly woman" in their eyes???? I mean how are you gonna keep a nice set of tips on and play in sandboxes, make homemade bread, paint, finger paint, etc. .....
Maybe some mom's can do this - but I couldn't . I'm so glad I got out early!
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