Obviously, you are taking my words PERSONALLY...I never mentioned your names in my post (that you quoted)...I responded in a generic way with principles that apply to ALL marriages...the subject was dealing with the idea of the man being the "head" of the household versus equal authority...First you state your opinion and use yourself as an example...and then you get upset when someone disagrees with you...I have no interest in sticking my nose in your marriage and I would suggest that in the future, if you do not want opposing views, then refrain from stating your own.
I don't know how to get multiple quotes in the same post and I was trying to disagree with several people (not only you). Possibly I should have quoted temple lady since she was the poster who named names. Mea culpa.
BTW, I am not sure your 'generic' principles really do apply to ALL marriages.
There's a huge difference between bowing down to Susan B. Anthony and seeking to "catch a break" for men in the workplace.
I am aware that there are some women who are full of hate, bitterness and are "militant" in their views...but they are a minority and for you to point out the "chauvenism of women" to justify your position is faulty at best...you are rationalizing your position.
The fact remains, men do not need to "catch a break" in the workplace.
Possibly, some of them do. Some women can be just as abusive as any man, and respect in the workplace should cut both ways.
On the subject of abuse (not in the workplace, but in the schoolyard), we were confronted recently with a situation involving a woman teacher and several teenage male students in which the female teacher was accused of sexually abusing several students (these accustions included sodomy). She recently pled guilty and now faces a sentence of up to 150 years in prison. I bring this up to reinforce a point that 'respect' in any situation should protect both gender's rights not just one.
Possibly, some of them do. Some women can be just as abusive as any man, and respect in the workplace should cut both ways.
On the subject of abuse (not in the workplace, but in the schoolyard), we were confronted recently with a situation involving a woman teacher and several teenage male students in which the female teacher was accused of sexually abusing several students (these accustions included sodomy). She recently pled guilty and now faces a sentence of up to 150 years in prison. I bring this up to reinforce a point that 'respect' in any situation should protect both gender's rights not just one.
Some women. Some men. I'm emphasizing this here to make a point. There are SOME in any group that are bad actors (referring to their actions and not their stage presence ;)) I think everyone will agree that it is faulty logic to make the jump from SOME to ALL.
Jean - your point about respect is correct. I think that the workplace rules in effect now are an attempt to even the playing field.
When I name names it is because the posters I name have already posted the situation on a public forum.
You are upset it appears because myself and other posters have commented on what we have "heard" from YOUR POSTS!!!
No one here EVER asked to be privy to the inside workings of your marriage!! YOU POSTED THEM!!!
Sorry if the discussion offends you, I really mean that-- I don't go around thinking of ways to deliberately hurt people--it's not my nature.
My hope is that maybe, just maybe, instead of you and johniam feeling that you are being forced in a corner where you have to defend yourselves, that you "hear" the concern and love behind some of these posts.
My sense is that you and johniam have had an "us against the world" mentality for a very long time, probably at some point it was a very real and necessary survival skill. I don't know why--not asking to know-- but it is apparent to those of us who really "listen" when we read.
GSC, and Waydale before it, has a healing power for many. Here at GSC we fight, we squabble we kiss and make up, but above all there is a real and genuine concern about each other. A concern that transcends our personal differences.
Just check out the prayer threads when someone is ill. I have received words of encouragement form people that I disagree with on practically everything--but they have been there rooting for me every step of the way during my recovery.
Maybe, it's time for you and your hubby to start coming out from behind your wall, stop feeling you have to justify what you believe, stop feeling you have to keep believing and keep doing things the way you always have.
There is room for change in all of us.
Heavenly Father loves ALL his children, you and johniam are my spiritual brothers and sisters. What ever I feel about some of the things you have posted- I embrace you as another member of the GSC family and as such wish you only the best.
When I name names it is because the posters I name have already posted the situation on a public forum.
You are upset it appears because myself and other posters have commented on what we have "heard" from YOUR POSTS!!!
No one here EVER asked to be privy to the inside workings of your marriage!! YOU POSTED THEM!!!
Sorry if the discussion offends you, I really mean that-- I don't go around thinking of ways to deliberately hurt people--it's not my nature.
My hope is that maybe, just maybe, instead of you and johniam feeling that you are being forced in a corner where you have to defend yourselves, that you "hear" the concern and love behind some of these posts.
My sense is that you and johniam have had an "us against the world" mentality for a very long time, probably at some point it was a very real and necessary survival skill. I don't know why--not asking to know-- but it is apparent to those of us who really "listen" when we read.
GSC, and Waydale before it, has a healing power for many. Here at GSC we fight, we squabble we kiss and make up, but above all there is a real and genuine concern about each other. A concern that transcends our personal differences.
Just check out the prayer threads when someone is ill. I have received words of encouragement form people that I disagree with on practically everything--but they have been there rooting for me every step of the way during my recovery.
Maybe, it's time for you and your hubby to start coming out from behind your wall, stop feeling you have to justify what you believe, stop feeling you have to keep believing and keep doing things the way you always have.
There is room for change in all of us.
Heavenly Father loves ALL his children, you and johniam are my spiritual brothers and sisters. What ever I feel about some of the things you have posted- I embrace you as another member of the GSC family and as such wish you only the best.
What angers me about your (and other's) posts is that no how many times I have said that John has never struck me or any other woman, and is a wonderful husband and father, you persist in believing the exact opposite, and treating me as a child or someone who deserves to be pitied for the misfortune of being married to John. John, at least, treats me as an adult woman with her own mind, who is capable of thinking rationally. Some of you on GSC don't accord me that courtesy.
If there is room for change in all of us, maybe it should begin with you.
One thing about respect.. if you don't expect it, you can't be disappointed..
I thought the whole point of this thread was respect.
Right now, I'm wondering what the difference between TWI and GSC is.
1. TWI's interference was a requirement at a certain level of your continued participation - at GSC there is no such requirement
2. TWI people could show up at your house - most of us don't know where your house is
3. In TWI disagreement was grounds for getting booted out - at GSC disagreement is grounds for getting disagreed with
We had problems with TWI because they wanted to stick their noses in our marriage, and decide that there was something wrong with it because I knew what size tires went on the car and John was capable of changing a poopy diaper and watching his own children.
I for one applaud you both for taking non-traditional roles upon yourselves and for refusing to allow the interferers to interfere.
Some of you in GSC take it upon yourself to decide there must be something wrong with our marriage (and I need people to feel sorry for me) because I use the term 'tiebreaker'.
I'll only speak for myself, and I'm jumping in because you quoted Groucho who was agreeing with me...
Do I think something is "wrong" with your marriage? I don't even think about it. I don't know you guys, don't know if your real names are John & Jean, don't know anything but what I read here. I don't consider myself qualified to judge your marriage. So I don't. You may have the perfect marriage, you may have the marriage from h*ll, but probably it's in-between somewhere like most of us.
But since you brought up the term tie-breaker, and used your own marriage as an example, you opened yourself up for comments from the peanut gallery.
Yes I do think that designating one spouse as the tie-breaker is no different than saying that that person makes all the decisions. Yes I do think that puts the woman in an inferior position, that's my opinion. However, that doesn't mean that I think your marriage is bad, or in need of "fixing". It's not my marriage!
As one poster pointed out, since John and I don't think our marriage is broken, why are y'all trying to fix it. In the situation I described (which was the most serious that has confronted us), there really wasn't a compromise position possible (other than the one John decided on); either his mother came to live with us, or she didn't.
I had a similar experience last year. I mentioned my wife in a post as an example of some kind. Another poster referenced my post. I was incensed! How dare that poster drag my wife into it. The other poster refused to delete his post or apologize. After a while I realized that I had made my personal life fair game by mentioning it in a post. It was a good lesson to learn.
You routinely use your marriage as examples to make your point. Of course anyone who disagrees with your point will refer to those examples.
What angers me about your (and other's) posts is that no how many times I have said that John has never struck me or any other woman, and is a wonderful husband and father, you persist in believing the exact opposite, and treating me as a child or someone who deserves to be pitied for the misfortune of being married to John. John, at least, treats me as an adult woman with her own mind, who is capable of thinking rationally. Some of you on GSC don't accord me that courtesy.
If there is room for change in all of us, maybe it should begin with you.
Agreed
I apologize and accept your explanation of how your marriage to johniam actually works.
That johniam doesn't actually physically abuse you is a wonderful thing, but he still believes, if I am to accept what he himself has posted, that physical abuse of a wife can be justified. That is where my problem with him lies.
I thought the whole point of this thread was respect.
We are talking about the respect due between husbands and wives in this thread --that is the topic.
Whether or not we respect other posters is an entirely different issue--an issue that must take into consideration that most of us have never met or spoken to each other --our sole interaction is here at GSC.
When you are reduced to basing your opinions of a persons character to a few sentances on a limited number of topics with no other data to go on-- respect cannot be expected. It would be nice -- but most of us grant respect based on a much wider set of variables.
What angers me about your (and other's) posts is that no how many times I have said that John has never struck me or any other woman, and is a wonderful husband and father, you persist in believing the exact opposite, and treating me as a child or someone who deserves to be pitied for the misfortune of being married to John. John, at least, treats me as an adult woman with her own mind, who is capable of thinking rationally. Some of you on GSC don't accord me that courtesy.
Jean:
John has posted that he believes that in some situations it is acceptable to strike a woman as a response to words. In the several times that this has come up he has stuck to that position. He has made it clear that he was not misunderstood. He has not back pedalled or tried to weasel out of his stance. Many of us here have a hard time reconciling those words with the image of him that you paint. I personally have not pitied you, traeted you like a child or anything like that, I see the situation as one of several possibilities:
1. John is a great husband and father in all categories and what he has posted is just talk - he would never do it himself
2. John is a great husband and father in all categories and what he has posted is an attempt to stir up a hornets nest.
3. John is a potential abuser who talks big but is held back from acting on the potential due to morality or fear of arrest
4. John is an active abuser and you are an enabler and a victim.
5. John is a potential abuser but is afraid of you!
6. John has abused others and you don't know about.
The fact that there are 4 choices that make him a bad guy and 2 that make him a good guy doesn't indicate my opinion of the likelihood of abuse. Notice that none of the choices are:
John is a great husband and father in all categories and doesn't believe that violence is a possible proper response to words.
John has posted that he believes that in some situations it is acceptable to strike a woman as a response to words. In the several times that this has come up he has stuck to that position. He has made it clear that he was not misunderstood. He has not back pedalled or tried to weasel out of his stance. Many of us here have a hard time reconciling those words with the image of him that you paint. I personally have not pitied you, traeted you like a child or anything like that, I see the situation as one of several possibilities:
1. John is a great husband and father in all categories and what he has posted is just talk - he would never do it himself
2. John is a great husband and father in all categories and what he has posted is an attempt to stir up a hornets nest.
3. John is a potential abuser who talks big but is held back from acting on the potential due to morality or fear of arrest
4. John is an active abuser and you are an enabler and a victim.
5. John is a potential abuser but is afraid of you!
6. John has abused others and you don't know about.
The fact that there are 4 choices that make him a bad guy and 2 that make him a good guy doesn't indicate my opinion of the likelihood of abuse. Notice that none of the choices are:
John is a great husband and father in all categories and doesn't believe that violence is a possible proper response to words.
1. This is the closest to the truth, although I think that there are certain extreme situations when he wouldn't hesitate to strike a woman; and I am not going to go into detail on this thread.
2. Partially true. John has an odd sense of humor.
Please don't take this personally, but I really couldn't give a rat's rear end about the marital relationship that exists between you two.
This thread is about how women in TWI were subjected to degrading policies and behavior.
It is broad in scope and not focused on any one particular individual or couple.
Anecdotal recountings may help the discussion but should not become the focal point.
At least that's my opinion.
I tend to agree that it should not become focussed on any one particular couple, but I do not agree with the idea that we have tried to focus it on ourselves. I posted an anecdote, someone said they didn't understand, I posted a further anecdote to illustrate what I said, and then various other posters saw fit to bring up ancient history in the form of old posts by John which have already been talked to death.
We are talking about the respect due between husbands and wives in this thread --that is the topic.
I thought the topic was degrading women, both married or single; which possibly could be expanded to degrading people of either gender, as I tried to point out in one post. Both men and women are very capable of abuse, sexual or otherwise.
I thought the topic was degrading women, both married or single; which possibly could be expanded to degrading people of either gender, as I tried to point out in one post. Both men and women are very capable of abuse, sexual or otherwise.
I guess that the flip side of degradation is respect. It's no surprise to me that both issues got called into the topic.
I'm more inclined to believe that verbal and emotional abuse were far more rampant than sexual abuse. That does not mean that I don't believe that sexual abuse went on, merely that it was ushered in by the verbal and emotional set-up.
Yes, I too thought this topic was about degrading women.
It's not about jean and john at all (whoever they may be..and I'm not being facitious here...I really don't know who they are) and I saw nothing in these posts that would make the focus about them. I did see a lot of personal info shared by them (which is certainly their own decision to communicate), which invited personal comment.
But I still think that this thread is very very needed (so long as each poster understands that any personal info that is made public info....becomes the domain of the public)
Otherwise this thread will be distracted and derailed even more.
If I mention my marriage to Steve! in a thread, I can logically expect response if there are questions. From what I know of GS folk, most of us know that each marriage/relationship is unique. If it works...it works.
However....if it is posted for any eye to read....regardless of whether they agree with your way of life or not...it is not a sin for them to question. If I put my marriage out there, in my own words....and it is a public forum like this one....I would EXPECT questions and lively and intelligent exchanges. I would not be offended by this....since it does not change my marriage ... I would simply deal with it as it came.....or stop sharing details of my married life.
I, for one, did not post with jean and john in mind (especially since I do not know who they are or why they take the stance that they do). I posted from my own perspective and opinion.
I do not resent disagreement....in fact....I love it!!!
I very highly cherish the times I have conversed with educated folk on issues that were very controversial....yet we managed to stay ahead of the "blame game" and had some great fun debating, calling each other on small points of illogic, and generally being rather disruptive to those around us. (three of us would often cause a newcomer to exit the room cuz they thought we were gonna come to blows....what was GREAT was that we all were quite close friends....even though we disagreed on some major issues). In fact....we often would SWITCH sides of a debate...in mid stream (which confused newcomers no end) .... an exercise we valued for keeping us above petty bickering.
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Jeaniam
I don't know how to get multiple quotes in the same post and I was trying to disagree with several people (not only you). Possibly I should have quoted temple lady since she was the poster who named names. Mea culpa.
BTW, I am not sure your 'generic' principles really do apply to ALL marriages.
Edited by JeaniamLink to comment
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Jeaniam
Possibly, some of them do. Some women can be just as abusive as any man, and respect in the workplace should cut both ways.
On the subject of abuse (not in the workplace, but in the schoolyard), we were confronted recently with a situation involving a woman teacher and several teenage male students in which the female teacher was accused of sexually abusing several students (these accustions included sodomy). She recently pled guilty and now faces a sentence of up to 150 years in prison. I bring this up to reinforce a point that 'respect' in any situation should protect both gender's rights not just one.
Edited by JeaniamLink to comment
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doojable
Some women. Some men. I'm emphasizing this here to make a point. There are SOME in any group that are bad actors (referring to their actions and not their stage presence ;)) I think everyone will agree that it is faulty logic to make the jump from SOME to ALL.
Jean - your point about respect is correct. I think that the workplace rules in effect now are an attempt to even the playing field.
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Ham
One thing about respect.. if you don't expect it, you can't be disappointed..
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templelady
Jeaniam
When I name names it is because the posters I name have already posted the situation on a public forum.
You are upset it appears because myself and other posters have commented on what we have "heard" from YOUR POSTS!!!
No one here EVER asked to be privy to the inside workings of your marriage!! YOU POSTED THEM!!!
Sorry if the discussion offends you, I really mean that-- I don't go around thinking of ways to deliberately hurt people--it's not my nature.
My hope is that maybe, just maybe, instead of you and johniam feeling that you are being forced in a corner where you have to defend yourselves, that you "hear" the concern and love behind some of these posts.
My sense is that you and johniam have had an "us against the world" mentality for a very long time, probably at some point it was a very real and necessary survival skill. I don't know why--not asking to know-- but it is apparent to those of us who really "listen" when we read.
GSC, and Waydale before it, has a healing power for many. Here at GSC we fight, we squabble we kiss and make up, but above all there is a real and genuine concern about each other. A concern that transcends our personal differences.
Just check out the prayer threads when someone is ill. I have received words of encouragement form people that I disagree with on practically everything--but they have been there rooting for me every step of the way during my recovery.
Maybe, it's time for you and your hubby to start coming out from behind your wall, stop feeling you have to justify what you believe, stop feeling you have to keep believing and keep doing things the way you always have.
There is room for change in all of us.
Heavenly Father loves ALL his children, you and johniam are my spiritual brothers and sisters. What ever I feel about some of the things you have posted- I embrace you as another member of the GSC family and as such wish you only the best.
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WordWolf
Regardless of differences of opinions, regardless of heated discussions, regardless of when I consider
a post to demonstrate all the understanding of a bowl of clam chowder,
none of you are my ENEMIES, and none of you are EVIL.
Sometimes it helps to remember that posts are rarely meant as a PERSONAL AFFRONT,
and may have nothing to do with yourself unless your name is on it.
The last time I had an emotional reaction to a post, it was in no way addressed to me, the poster
had no intention of applying it to me, and when I sent them a pm, they said so outright.
(I don't consider PERSONAL issues worth PUBLIC posting.)
Thus, we settled that little misunderstanding privately and plainly, as adults often do.
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Jeaniam
What angers me about your (and other's) posts is that no how many times I have said that John has never struck me or any other woman, and is a wonderful husband and father, you persist in believing the exact opposite, and treating me as a child or someone who deserves to be pitied for the misfortune of being married to John. John, at least, treats me as an adult woman with her own mind, who is capable of thinking rationally. Some of you on GSC don't accord me that courtesy.
If there is room for change in all of us, maybe it should begin with you.
I thought the whole point of this thread was respect.
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Ham
I was speaking for myself.
:)
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Jeaniam
You don't expect respect?
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Ham
I enjoy it when I get it..
:)
I try to live my life the best God would have me to.. but that doesn't guarantee anything.
Respect is kind of like love.. can't buy it, demand it..
I know.. God's love is unconditional and all..
but people? If it comes, it comes..
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Jeaniam
Good point.
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Oakspear
1. TWI's interference was a requirement at a certain level of your continued participation - at GSC there is no such requirement
2. TWI people could show up at your house - most of us don't know where your house is
3. In TWI disagreement was grounds for getting booted out - at GSC disagreement is grounds for getting disagreed with
I for one applaud you both for taking non-traditional roles upon yourselves and for refusing to allow the interferers to interfere.I'll only speak for myself, and I'm jumping in because you quoted Groucho who was agreeing with me...Do I think something is "wrong" with your marriage? I don't even think about it. I don't know you guys, don't know if your real names are John & Jean, don't know anything but what I read here. I don't consider myself qualified to judge your marriage. So I don't. You may have the perfect marriage, you may have the marriage from h*ll, but probably it's in-between somewhere like most of us.
But since you brought up the term tie-breaker, and used your own marriage as an example, you opened yourself up for comments from the peanut gallery.
Yes I do think that designating one spouse as the tie-breaker is no different than saying that that person makes all the decisions. Yes I do think that puts the woman in an inferior position, that's my opinion. However, that doesn't mean that I think your marriage is bad, or in need of "fixing". It's not my marriage!
I had a similar experience last year. I mentioned my wife in a post as an example of some kind. Another poster referenced my post. I was incensed! How dare that poster drag my wife into it. The other poster refused to delete his post or apologize. After a while I realized that I had made my personal life fair game by mentioning it in a post. It was a good lesson to learn.You routinely use your marriage as examples to make your point. Of course anyone who disagrees with your point will refer to those examples.
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templelady
Agreed
I apologize and accept your explanation of how your marriage to johniam actually works.
That johniam doesn't actually physically abuse you is a wonderful thing, but he still believes, if I am to accept what he himself has posted, that physical abuse of a wife can be justified. That is where my problem with him lies.
We are talking about the respect due between husbands and wives in this thread --that is the topic.
Whether or not we respect other posters is an entirely different issue--an issue that must take into consideration that most of us have never met or spoken to each other --our sole interaction is here at GSC.
When you are reduced to basing your opinions of a persons character to a few sentances on a limited number of topics with no other data to go on-- respect cannot be expected. It would be nice -- but most of us grant respect based on a much wider set of variables.
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Oakspear
John has posted that he believes that in some situations it is acceptable to strike a woman as a response to words. In the several times that this has come up he has stuck to that position. He has made it clear that he was not misunderstood. He has not back pedalled or tried to weasel out of his stance. Many of us here have a hard time reconciling those words with the image of him that you paint. I personally have not pitied you, traeted you like a child or anything like that, I see the situation as one of several possibilities:
1. John is a great husband and father in all categories and what he has posted is just talk - he would never do it himself
2. John is a great husband and father in all categories and what he has posted is an attempt to stir up a hornets nest.
3. John is a potential abuser who talks big but is held back from acting on the potential due to morality or fear of arrest
4. John is an active abuser and you are an enabler and a victim.
5. John is a potential abuser but is afraid of you!
6. John has abused others and you don't know about.
The fact that there are 4 choices that make him a bad guy and 2 that make him a good guy doesn't indicate my opinion of the likelihood of abuse. Notice that none of the choices are:
John is a great husband and father in all categories and doesn't believe that violence is a possible proper response to words.
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waysider
John and Jean
Please don't take this personally, but I really couldn't give a rat's rear end about the marital relationship that exists between you two.
This thread is about how women in TWI were subjected to degrading policies and behavior.
It is broad in scope and not focused on any one particular individual or couple.
Anecdotal recountings may help the discussion but should not become the focal point.
At least that's my opinion.
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J0nny Ling0
No, I'm not! And we need to stop women's sufferage! They've been suffering for too long!
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GrouchoMarxJr
You got a plan?
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Jeaniam
1. This is the closest to the truth, although I think that there are certain extreme situations when he wouldn't hesitate to strike a woman; and I am not going to go into detail on this thread.
2. Partially true. John has an odd sense of humor.
3. Wrong.
4. Wrong.
5. Wrong.
6. Highly unlikely.
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Jeaniam
I tend to agree that it should not become focussed on any one particular couple, but I do not agree with the idea that we have tried to focus it on ourselves. I posted an anecdote, someone said they didn't understand, I posted a further anecdote to illustrate what I said, and then various other posters saw fit to bring up ancient history in the form of old posts by John which have already been talked to death.
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Jeaniam
I thought the topic was degrading women, both married or single; which possibly could be expanded to degrading people of either gender, as I tried to point out in one post. Both men and women are very capable of abuse, sexual or otherwise.
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doojable
I guess that the flip side of degradation is respect. It's no surprise to me that both issues got called into the topic.
I'm more inclined to believe that verbal and emotional abuse were far more rampant than sexual abuse. That does not mean that I don't believe that sexual abuse went on, merely that it was ushered in by the verbal and emotional set-up.
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Cindy!
Yes, I too thought this topic was about degrading women.
It's not about jean and john at all (whoever they may be..and I'm not being facitious here...I really don't know who they are) and I saw nothing in these posts that would make the focus about them. I did see a lot of personal info shared by them (which is certainly their own decision to communicate), which invited personal comment.
But I still think that this thread is very very needed (so long as each poster understands that any personal info that is made public info....becomes the domain of the public)
Otherwise this thread will be distracted and derailed even more.
If I mention my marriage to Steve! in a thread, I can logically expect response if there are questions. From what I know of GS folk, most of us know that each marriage/relationship is unique. If it works...it works.
However....if it is posted for any eye to read....regardless of whether they agree with your way of life or not...it is not a sin for them to question. If I put my marriage out there, in my own words....and it is a public forum like this one....I would EXPECT questions and lively and intelligent exchanges. I would not be offended by this....since it does not change my marriage ... I would simply deal with it as it came.....or stop sharing details of my married life.
I, for one, did not post with jean and john in mind (especially since I do not know who they are or why they take the stance that they do). I posted from my own perspective and opinion.
I do not resent disagreement....in fact....I love it!!!
I very highly cherish the times I have conversed with educated folk on issues that were very controversial....yet we managed to stay ahead of the "blame game" and had some great fun debating, calling each other on small points of illogic, and generally being rather disruptive to those around us. (three of us would often cause a newcomer to exit the room cuz they thought we were gonna come to blows....what was GREAT was that we all were quite close friends....even though we disagreed on some major issues). In fact....we often would SWITCH sides of a debate...in mid stream (which confused newcomers no end) .... an exercise we valued for keeping us above petty bickering.
It was truly FUN!!!!
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