The soup and doughnuts offered to the poor were financed by prostitution, drugs, murder, and who knows how many other kinds of rackets..
Why is it.. people can look at the man, in any OTHER arena of life except for religion, and despite the personna, say, "geeze, what an evil, dispicible SOB.."
and in regard to the "good works".. the motive for doing so, appears as clear as water..
maybe Capone wasn't as smart as he looked.. he should have founded a cult instead..
The soup and doughnuts offered to the poor were financed by prostitution, drugs, murder, and who knows how many other kinds of rackets..
And I'll bet the poor were thankful for the soup and doughnuts, and were thankful that Capone gave these things to them, all the while recognizing what an SOB he was in most areas of his life.
I recognize the areas in vpw's life where he was an SOB, and detest him and his sin in those areas. But I'm also thankful that he had good things about his life and did serve soup and doughnuts to those who needed them and were in his ear shot.
Doojable, great point and well made. I'd have to agree 100%.
I sat through PFAL. If that was all there was, no twig, no ROA, no, Corps, etc., I would have kept on my merry way looking for more. The class was a C-L-A-S-S that's it.
It was the people that kept me there and kept teaching that made every gel. The class wasn't a miracle on tape.
“P. S. I realize this post will anger and hurt some posters and many lurkers. Please know that I would not have posted it if I did not feel compelled to do so.—Suda”
What do you mean by that statement?
Even the devil can transform himself into an angel of light, and just because someone speaks truth at times doesn’t mean it is inspired of the true God or that it is true light. Even devils know the Bible. And even vp taught the value of a counterfeit is the nearness to the genuine. Without some truth deception isn’t possible. True statements or teaching can certainly lead a person to believe the teacher has God’s endorsement at that moment in time. That is not necessarily an accurate conclusion.
How would it be possible to deceive even the very elect without some truth and perhaps even a lot of it?
Overall, did twi teach a true respect for God? Or was it based on taking the Lord’s name in vain (assigning God’s name and endorsement for what He did not endorse, such teaching the Word like it hadn’t been known that he stole from others, snow storms that didn’t exist et al) ego, and idolatry? Did it lead us toward Jesus or away? (Absent Christ). Did it help us love others or did we manifest more hardheartedness than we did to start with? Did it lead us to freedom or bondage? Did we end up without even a basic understanding of what it means to not rely on our own human effort? (See Gal 3 and bewitching).
Did we get better or worse at basics? Or did we have to leave and start all over to understand even these things? Was one of the first things you returned to love God and love your neighbor? If so, why do you think that happened? Could it be you were led away from it? If so, what does that tell you?
The acid test of a false prophet is whether or not the end result is idolatry. All the analysis in the world doesn’t alter that one simple fact. It is NOT whether or not they taught some truth. Even in this situation, of course we can benefit from what was truth.
If you want to understand vp and twi, you have only one question to answer. Did you practice idolatry to any degree while in twi as a direct or indirect result of what you were told and taught?
Understood Suda....I guess that my question would be, what in vpw`s life would indicate that he WASN`T a false prophet...a wolf in sheeps clothing?
A wolf is not part of the flock...a wolf infiltrates the flock diguised in order to get close enough to rend and devour thise who would otherwise flee to the shepherd for safety.
I don`t see Jesus cutting the pharacees who hurt God`s people any slack....I don`t see him telling people to apreciate the good and escew the evil...
I see him hold these people in the utmost contempt.
I don`t see vpw as of the same flock....he gathered us about him...immitating the call of the shepherd...he drew us away from the shepherds protection....he offered us green pasture (the word) and while we were distracted... grazing on the riches ...he picked us off one by one for his personal consumption....we were so dadgummed busy focused on what we were eating....blythly trusting that we were under the protection of the shepherd....we relaxed our guard...did not see the need for vigilance..that when it became OUR turn to feel gnashing teeth...not only of the wolf...but those of his whelps that he snuck in while we were unaware...we start bleeting for the shepherds protection...we are bleeding with the flesh torn from us...pitiously...not understanding why we are being consumed...bewildered and wounded...attempting to understand how the wolves came into our midst.
It was brutal and cruel...
I cannot accept that God was at work here. I cannot accept that the just shepherd would call us into danger....
\What I CAN understand that I might have been lured away from his protection ...decieved into following the shepherd away from the safety and protection that was ours.....and then being ravaged because I didn`t have sense enogh to detect the imposter ....enough to run to the real shepherd.
I cannot trust a God that would lead some of us to blessings and sonme of us into rape and death ...I just cannot :(
I think Capone and these Mogster types knew a little psychology. It is quite easy to get someone to agree, providing they are starving, and you have a few crumbs.
I think that we agree insofar as Wierwille did evil but that any good derived from his teachings must be evaluated separately from that evil. I also agree that good things happened to people while they were involved in TWI and that people affiliated with TWI did much good.
Where you and I disagree is that you apparently believe that "da class" was overall a good thing and that it overall contained "accurate" bible teachings.
Let me clarify that a little, I'm not saying that every single thing in it was at odds with what's in the bible, or that there was nothing in it that was helpful. Not at all. But that PFAL, as a foundation for studying and understanding the bible was not what it was claimed to be.
Wierwille does a good job early in the class of convincing us that he is a guy who "reads what is written" and lets the bible "interpret itself". But as the class goes on more and more of what he says is backed up by "old documents" that nobody has ever seen, definitions of Greek and Hebrew words that are found in no other concordance or lexicon, and conclusions that are pulled out of the air. Sure, we were taught by Wierwille methods of "researching" the bible, and "working the Word", but how much of what we were taught enabled us not to determine what God's will was, but to confirm what Wierwille taught?
Even post-TWI, so many statements by ex-wayfers are based not on an objective reading of the bible, but are colored by what we learned in TWI.
Understood Suda....I guess that my question would be, what in vpw`s life would indicate that he WASN`T a false prophet...a wolf in sheeps clothing?
A wolf is not part of the flock...a wolf infiltrates the flock diguised in order to get close enough to rend and devour thise who would otherwise flee to the shepherd for safety
That is something I definitely plan to study along with "inheritance" in Galatians 5. You have provided the "jumping off" place for my need "research" project. My notes are full of things you have said that I want to investigate further. You have been a treasure in my pursuits and I appreciate your questions. Consideration of them raises many excellent questions I want to pursue. Please, keep the coming girlfriend.
Ham,
Your points are solid and well taken. I know little about the history of Capone and his soup lines. From your comments it sounds that they were not altruistic in nature, but rather the bait to snare more people in his web. I defer to your judgment as I'm ignorant on the subject.
Great post and lots of things for me to consider. And I will as I continue to research this topic.
Was one of the first things you returned to love God and love your neighbor?
I can honestly say I never turned away from these while in twi, so I could not return to them as I had never left them. They were always of primary importance to me, and have been for as long as I can remember.
If you want to understand vp and twi, you have only one question to answer. Did you practice idolatry to any degree while in twi as a direct or indirect result of what you were told and taught?
That will take some real honest self examination, which I will follow through on. At this point, my gut feeling is “no”. I did see vpw as my “Father in the Word” but never saw him as infallible and recognized some of his “berserk” ways. I was confused by them, and chalked them up to “usual human frailties”. But I didn’t give him a pass on them either. So, as I say, some real honest soul searching is needed by me to answer this question. Excellent question. Thanks for bringing it up.
Suda my dear (and I use that expression in all sincerity and from my heart),
My questions were really rhetorical…What was the ultimate result, as opposed to the immediate? The big picture, so to speak.
Dealing with twi is really confusing, difficult, and takes time. Sometimes a lot of time. I also think different ones of us got sucked into it in various parts of it in varying degrees. One reason I think it is hard to come to a consensus one the subject.
I guess the real question is not so much did I or you practice idolatry, but did twi promote it? I think they did.
I agree love God love my neighbor were high priorities with me too all along. But with a lot of introspection I see twi doctrine and belief systems really set me back on those lines to a degree. I didn’t see that over night either.
I think you and I agree on a lot of what you have posted.
Where you and I disagree is that you apparently believe that "da class" was overall a good thing and that it overall contained "accurate" bible teachings.
Let me clarify that a little, I'm not saying that every single thing in it was at odds with what's in the bible, or that there was nothing in it that was helpful. Not at all. But that PFAL, as a foundation for studying and understanding the bible was not what it was claimed to be.
Wierwille does a good job early in the class of convincing us that he is a guy who "reads what is written" and lets the bible "interpret itself". But as the class goes on more and more of what he says is backed up by "old documents" that nobody has ever seen, definitions of Greek and Hebrew words that are found in no other concordance or lexicon, and conclusions that are pulled out of the air. Sure, we were taught by Wierwille methods of "researching" the bible, and "working the Word", but how much of what we were taught enabled us not to determine what God's will was, but to confirm what Wierwille taught?
My visual picture of the class is like a spider web you see after a hard rain. The web itself would be invisible if it were not for the multitude of tiny droplets of water shining off of it's surface. And those shining droplets represent the gems of truth in the scriptures read in the class. Those scriptures stood alone and brought great joy, healing, and freedom to me. Whether it was because I was "as dumb as a door nail" or because God was working with me to dismiss the underlying web of deceit, I do not know. I found it confusing, was unable to understand it, so I didn't spend much time trying to understand it, but rather dismissed most of it. I was very fortunate that most of the leadership I was around did not espouse the "VPW said it, that settles it" or "PFAL=the Word" (I was always taught there were errors in it and that as research brought new light onto the subject, HQ would change their teachings accordingly - don't think that actually happened - so I didn't put much in "abeyance", I just dismissed it) or "The Ministry=The Word=God". They encouraged individual study and questions and did not "fly off the handle" if my conclusions went against "the party line". My stubbornness in not accepting things unless they bore out my research and/or rang true with my "inner being" or "conscience" probably played a large part in what I kept and what I just dismissed. Bottom line, I guess, is I never felt pressured into accepting things that went against my gut feelings. The few times people pulled that "melt you face until you change your mind" crap on me, I called them on it, and told them they were the ones who needed to change, not me. I would not buckle under such pressure, and so dismissed their efforts, and took anything they said in the future, either to me personally or in a "public, group setting" with a lot of salt, not just a few grains. I did not deem them to be trustworthy.
And I guess since I bucked against what looked "off" to me, I was not drawn into all the deceit. So I see the class as the water droplets and not the web. I understand my experience was different from many. In reality, I think the class for unique for each of us in many ways. But I think I got more water from class than spider web. And since I dimissed any spider web I felt sticking to me, when I look back at the class, that part is largely irrelevant to my experience, so I don't give it much heed. But that's just my opinion of my experience and how it shapes my view of PFAL.
I don't know why you-all are pretending to be scared of wolves because I'm definately not convinced that you are. In fact, there is one right here on GSC - Mr. WordWolf. I don't know why I keep coming back - well, other than the fact it really amazes me to see people feigning to be sheep who love to wear wolves clothing.
What did PFAL do for me? It taught me a lot of scripture I had never read before because I found it hard to read and understand the KJV and most other versions of the Bible I had been exposed to. It taught me how to understand "KJV Bible-ese" much in the same way my English teacher taught me to understand "Shakespear-ese". From those scriptures I found learned more about who God was, how precious I was to Him as an individual, and what the "desires of His heart" were for me as his beloved child. I finally understood in my heart the love God had for His children. I had been exposed to so much "hell fire and damnation" teaching that went at cross purposes with what I believed God to be. PFAL was the first place that stressed his love, and his desire for tender fellowship with each of His children. This really gave me the foundation upon which I developed a personal and intimate Father-daughter relationship with him.
The research skills were tremendous. I never knew about uncials (sp), cursives, the lack of punctuation and title headings. That answered a lot of my questions as to how and why there were "errors" in the Bible. I had never heard of a Concordance, an Interlinear and all the research books we were introduced to. I finally had to ability to go to the Bible myself, study it and learn it for myself. That was thrilling!
I was glad to have this volume of information presented to me in "crash course" format. It was the scripture alone, on it's own shining as a diamond, and the research skills that I brought away from PFAL. I have no allegiance to the class per se, but the wealth of information provided in the class. And I'm confident other excellent "crash courses" exist in lecture form, DVD form, or a book or series of books. I have not searched for them since taking PFAL because it satisfied what I was looking for at that time. But I think having the knowledge of a "crash course" is a good tool in my belt in helping others to enjoy the same opportunity I had. When I run across something I find to be better than PFAL, I will have no qualms making it my "favorite" in place of PFAL.
"Witnessing to put a class together" always sat at odds with me and I never participated in the "crush". What I consistently did was share my thoughts and opinions in everyday life with anyone with whom the subject came up naturally, and not in by a forced means. If we got to know each other better, and they desired to attend fellowship with me, that was fine. If after being exposed to twig, they expressed a desire to take the class, I was glad to help them register. But I never witnessed PFAL or twig, but rather what God meant to me in my life, to people, and the role PFAL had played in my relationship with God often came up. Obviously, I was not a big "bread winner" in terms of new students for the class, but that was fine with me.
The majority of the notes I took while working through this thread I have not posted here. But here's a response to Tom Strange I made in my notes that seems appropriate to share at this time.
To Tom Strange’s post in #246
A comment on Suda's post: Here's what I don't get... if you really like PFAL and want to hold onto it and give it the credit for helping you why don't you go back to the BG Leonard class? That's where he got it... it seems to me to be so easy to totally avoid TWI and any association with it to seek the Word that you hold dear... just get it from the places veepee did... you don't need veepee as the middleman.......
Excellent idea. Is there a B. G. Leonard class I can attend or purchase? This is an question, not a sarcastic remark. I would be very interested in it, if so. Are any of his writings still in publication? That should be easy enough for me to check out on the internet. I have put it on my “To Do List” and will check into it in the near future. If you have any information that would help me in this regard, I would appreciate you pm’ing it to me, or posting it here on this thread for the benefit of anyone else who is interested. I’m always looking for new avenues of things to study and share with my fellowship. We draw our teaching from many different sources. Anything we find that is of interest to us is "game" for sharing. Thanks again for the suggestion!
Now that I have read Dot Matrix’s post #483, I would like to ask, "Which B.G. Leonard book you got, Dot? What other of his books do you recommend. And what other books from other authors do you recommend?"
Am really learning from all the feedback. Many thanks to each of you!
Suda, thanks for making the effort to understand where I am coming from. Contrary to popular belief...lol I am NOT out on some personal vendettaagainst vp/twi...in questioning you....these are the questions that I myself am asking....
How COULD God lead one of us to be blessed and one of us to the same group to die? Why wasn`t the one who died protected?
How could God get credit for leading one of us to vpw to learn something and another to him to be drugged and raped??
What I am asking is WHAT in vpw`s life would give any indication that he wasn`t a false prophet....a wolf in sheeps clothing...a man of the flesh with no inheritance in the kingdom of God??
Just because we liked what scripture that he didn`t manage to butcher into some self serving doctrine...
What I am saying is....a false p[rophet has to look an awfull lot like a real one in order to succede in fooling anybody and leading them away from God.
I believe that coming to grips with what he was...with what he taught us is important in understanding what needs to be re examined.
Suda...I love that you and I can talk about this as reasonable people. That you and I have a friendship built on mutual respect and admiration.
I am glad that we can discuss these issues. I am glad that you are patient with me and share what you find so that I can grow and be a better person.
Love you girl...please keep me informed on what you find in your studies. I am very interested.
No, Johniam (or Jean, whichever one of you wrote this). First, I am not a robot - I prayed to God and asked for His guidance and direction. I do believe he led me to a group of people who could and did help me tremendously. I also believe I blew it by not getting out when His still small voice told me to.
Yes, I believe some of the people played a role in my getting healed, but the ultimate credit goes to God. Yes, I am thankful for those people (VPW was dead and gone before I ever came to TWI, he does not get credit as one of those people. VPW used God's Word to hurt people and God took that weapon and turned it to good to help people, so again VPW does not get credit).
I don't believe in your devil Johniam. One of my big contentions with the teachings of TWI is how much power they give to the devil. At least by the time I left, it seemed that according to TWI the devil had far more power than God does. Shame on them!! They used the devil to instill fear instead of teaching God to instill peace!!!
The first post was John, this one is me. John rarely posts under my name, I forget to check who's signed in fairly frequently. I agree that there were warning signs late in our involvement with TWI that seemed to suggest that leaving might have been a wise idea.
We were having a discussion recently on the subject of whether it's wise to dwell too much on the devil. It seemed that TWI began to do that in the later days. It seems to me that if we focus on doing God's will we will defeat the purposes of the devil in the natural course of things; whereas it seems to me that if we focus on defeating the devil, it is something of an unhealthy mindset, as then we are using the devil for our primary center of reference instead of God.
Rascal and Suda, I hope you don't mind if I interject a couple of things which are (at least in my mind) related. Rascal, you asked:
How COULD God lead one of us to be blessed and one of us to the same group to die? Why wasn`t the one who died protected?
The same can be asked about the churches where the altar boys were molested by their priests. Or about the young women, older women, any age women...seeking counsil from their preacher only to be coherced into "blessing" the man of God sexually (this has happened locally in so many different Protestant churches that I've lost count). These folks were just looking for a "closer walk with Thee"...but look what happened to them, yet there are probably people in those congregations who have been blessed by some aspect of their ministries.
I'm not saying that I don't think vpw wasn't a false prophet or a wolf in sheep's clothing, and I'm not saying he was...I don't know. I tend to lean toward thinking maybe he was born again but left his trap door wide open by being a slave to ego and lust. Then again...how could he do what he did? I go 'round and 'round and 'round with this and I figure I won't know until judgement. I just know that if he really was born again and will be in heaven with us, I want a room waaaaaaaay far away from his...in another zip code, if heaven has zip codes. :lol:
Anyway, I do believe that the mainstream churches of the early 70's failed the youth miserably. There just wasn't a whole lot being offered in the way of "hot Bible" teachings...well, not unless you counted the hellfireandbrimstone variety of preaching. No real Bible study to speak of...no research for the average Joe. I just remember too many rigid rules and judgements about the way kids dressed and the length of their hair.
There's more I'd like to say, but I'm starting to bore myself, so thanks for listening.
Best way I know how to answer these questions at this time is:
How COULD God lead one of us to be blessed and one of us to the same group to die? Why wasn`t the one who died protected?
How could God get credit for leading one of us to vpw to learn something and another to him to be drugged and raped??
What I am asking is WHAT in vpw`s life would give any indication that he wasn`t a false prophet....a wolf in sheeps clothing...a man of the flesh with no inheritance in the kingdom of God??
First of all, my belief is that a false prophet is of the devil. Do we agree on this point?
If what I believe is true, why would the devil lead us to an organization where we would find (for the first time or not) the information to get us born again? What possible reason would he have? Some may say so he could then steal it from us, and kill our relationship with God. But to me he would want to prevent the new birth first and foremost. And if unable to do that then steal and kill it.
And I do not believe God brought people to vpw. I think he brought people to the information that he presented which represented God and in was presented in a format that would reach us. And, as importantly, God brough us to the fellowship of believers among whom to grow and mature spiriutally. I've been involved with a lot of Christian groups in my life, but never have I found anything close to the people multitudes I found in twi, not only their caliber, but the zeal and excitement they had for learning to put God first, and helping each other do the same. The people are unparalled anywhere else in my experience.
Many of us heard the Bible other places, and were born again, but I don't know how many had the caliber of fellowship, except in those dynamic ministries that vpw so skillfully attracted and then abolished their leaders, kidnapping many of the followers in the process.
In PFAL we were introduced to the information of how to discern between truth and error. However, when we say it in twi, we were talked out of accepting the reality, and often brow beaten into submission. But in that process, how many of us had thoughts of "This is wrong." "This is not right according the to scriptures nor morals nor ethics." "Listen to your heart, your guts, don't be deceived". That was God in there trying to protect us. Some heeded to one degree or another, others did not. If we failed to heed the admonitions of God, we got hurt, and badly. But that was not due to God, that was due to the devil.
Why were we called to "a ministry" where good and evil were so intertwined? We weren't. We were not called to vpw or twi or PFAL. We were called to God and His people, who, at that particular point and time, seemed to be centered around twi due in a large part to kidnapped ministries of other men. And twi had a vehicle for quick, efficient, widespread reach of those hungering for the truth that the other ministries lacked. So they jumped on the bandwagon, at least temporarily, and added their voices to the call to PFAL. Those men, along with many of the ministers affiliated with twi were salt of the earth men who did truely strive to honestly serve God and His people. Many who saw the evil left, and were so berated that we did not consider following them when we should have. And of those left, the ministers fell largely into two camps (1) ignorant to the underbelly or (2) active in it. Those ignorant could not protect us due to their ignorance. God had to protect us. And if we failed to "register" His warnings, we did not heed them, and we got hurt.
How did we get tricked by the adversary? I don't know for sure. But as so much emphasis was placed on discerning the good from the bad, and it was drilled into our heads that twi was the best thing available on earth, we were tricked into thinking "can't be any bad here, must be all good". If they were hiding something, why would they tell us how to detect it? Because that was the devils big trick and it worked wonderfully. We accepted the good and the misrepresented scripture as truth, not the deep, darkest evils. And as we adopted the misrepresenation of scripture and misapplication of it, it led us from God to the devils spider web and we got caught. But God did warn us, we just failed to comprehend the warnings. Those were more subtle than the sexual and emotional abuse. And that's how we were hurt.
That's the best I can explain it right now.
And on a different note, I've read a lot recently about the "absent Christ". It is obviously one of those things I heard and dismissed. But I do plead ignorance to not having a real relationship with Jeus Christ. I know he is my Savior, I know what He accomplished for me, I know He is my mediator with God, but I don't know how to practically apply that knowledge. I may well be misapplying some attributes of Jesus Christ to God. Any good books on this subject, or body of teaching, anyone can direct me to? I'd love to learn more about it so that Jesus Christ can be as living and real in my life as God is. Many thanks.
Suda
edited to add Tonto and I must have been posting simultaneously.
P. S. I realize this post will anger and hurt some posters and many lurkers. Please know that I would not have posted it if I did not feel compelled to do so.—Suda”
What do you mean by that statement?
I realize that there are posters here, and well as lurkers that are near and dear to my heart, that regard VPW as their "Father in the Word" and that my thoughts and observations could hurt them to read and may hurt more coming from me. I considered their reactions thoughtfully. But I felt more compelled to ask my questions and share my observations and thoughts in order to receive feedback than to protect their feelings.
Am I saying God asked me to do that? No, just that I felt compelled. I do feel He has inspired me during my work through this thread, but I will not attribute all my thoughts and observations to Him. Many are just mine. And it's often difficult for me to discern the difference between them.
Why were we called to "a ministry" where good and evil were so intertwined? We weren't. We were not called to vpw or twi or PFAL. We were called to God and His people, who, at that particular point and time, seemed to be centered around twi due in a large part to kidnapped ministries of other men. And twi had a vehicle for quick, efficient, widespread reach of those hungering for the truth that the other ministries lacked. So they jumped on the bandwagon, at least temporarily, and added their voices to the call to PFAL. Those men, along with many of the ministers affiliated with twi were salt of the earth men who did truely strive to honestly serve God and His people. Many who saw the evil left, and were so berated that we did not consider following them when we should have. And of those left, the ministers fell largely into two camps (1) ignorant to the underbelly or (2) active in it. Those ignorant could not protect us due to their ignorance. God had to protect us. And if we failed to "register" His warnings, we did not heed them, and we got hurt.
Suda....that's pretty much the way I view it, too.
Someday, I'll have to dig out Mrs. Wierwille's book from my attic......but IIRC here is a brief timeline:
1) In 1941/42..........Wierwille and his denominational leaders are wanting to part their association.
2) In 1942...............VPW starts his "baby steps" as an independent pastor.
3) From 1941-53......VPW is unable to move forward and becomes depressed, ready to quit.
4) March 1953.........VPW heads to Calgary Alberta to attend Rev. BG Leonard's class
5) Jun/Jul 1953........VPW and Mrs. and Don (and two carloads of congregants) attend BG's class.
6) Oct 1953.............VPW runs his own class....no syllabus, no charts, no handouts
7) From 1941-53......This accounts for the 12 YEARS where vp claims he studied nothing but the Word.
8) From 1953-67......14 years -- vpw studies Bullinger, Stiles, Kenyon -- adding to "his work"
9) PFAL class filmed and ready for distribution.......Timing is EVERYTHING.
10) Jesus Movement and Music is sweeping the country......becoming more mainstream.
11) Doxp, Hefnxr and others.....vpw persuades and engrafts their ministries and work into twi.
12) Genuine, youthful ministries bring zeal and FIRE......vpw has struck "spiritual gold."
13) Summer Camps, ROA, WOW program......magnets drawing people to Ohio.
14) Songs of Jesus, love, peace......even the early twi songbooks were more worship and praise to God.
15) Corps program.....the first corps program failed (tagged "the zero corps")
16) More programs, more bureacracy.......more money flowing, more unaccountability
17) Motorcoaches, planes, campuses........increased image & mystique & power
18) MOG-Idolatry is hitting its zenith and wierwille basks in his long-awaited narcisstic status.
19) Darkness rules at hq.......abuses, abortions, rapes, cover-ups, silencers, sordid circles of compliance.
20) Wierwille dies of cancer....and wanted his epitaph to read, "I wish I were the man I know to be."
I shall forever be thankful for Waydale and GS posters who've helped me to assemble this puzzling dichotomy of a man who so many rendered "The Man of God." And, although I've seen blessings and healings and deliverance during my twi tenure, because of the engrafting of other true ministers and their work.......I also know WHY twi spiraled down into the throes of hell.
True freedom never smelled SO GOOD.
:)
PS.....Of course, only the first few are documented in Mrs. W's book.
Eyesopen and I are working on the false prophet thing. She's done more work on it than I have. She has a fantastic post on Romans 1 on the Spiritual Abuse thread, explaining it relates to people who hold or suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Turns out the chapter has to do with people who knew the truth at one time and turned away from it, and what happens in their lives when they do this.
I do appreciate your posts, although I am a real late comer to the thread. I for one have a very difficult time seeing anything positive from twi. It really takes effort to do so. I did like your description of water on a spider web. I was thinking along similar lines last nite. I also thought about now that I am away from twi, I actually use some of the resources I learned to separate the chaff from the wheat of twi. I am inclined to think part of the healing is arriving at a truthful, realistic, and balanced view of it. With an open mind.....in order see where God was at work and where He was not. That seems to be the real confusion. Identifying the roles. I did this, God did this, the devil did this.
The thing is, vp did abuse women. He really was into power and control which is emotional abuse. It takes a certain type of person to do so. Meaning their conscience doesn't bother them to use others for their own satisfaction. It isn't something a person turns on or off like a light switch. Conscience isn't a matter of sinning one minute and being right on the next. It is a major character flaw for which is spiritual reasons. Now, whether that is a matter of being a false prophet or someone who has turned away from God after knowing the truth is another question. Also, can a false prophet have ever known the truth. These are questions Eyes and I are working on. I can see a case for either leading to idolatry based on Eye's Romans 1 post.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Ham
The soup and doughnuts offered to the poor were financed by prostitution, drugs, murder, and who knows how many other kinds of rackets..
Why is it.. people can look at the man, in any OTHER arena of life except for religion, and despite the personna, say, "geeze, what an evil, dispicible SOB.."
and in regard to the "good works".. the motive for doing so, appears as clear as water..
maybe Capone wasn't as smart as he looked.. he should have founded a cult instead..
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Suda
I recognize the areas in vpw's life where he was an SOB, and detest him and his sin in those areas. But I'm also thankful that he had good things about his life and did serve soup and doughnuts to those who needed them and were in his ear shot.
Doojable, great point and well made. I'd have to agree 100%.
Suda
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Ham
he could have claimed tax-exempt status.
Suda, don't get me wrong, I'm not throwing bricks at you .. I'm only talking in generalities.
:)
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another spot
“P. S. I realize this post will anger and hurt some posters and many lurkers. Please know that I would not have posted it if I did not feel compelled to do so.—Suda”
What do you mean by that statement?
Even the devil can transform himself into an angel of light, and just because someone speaks truth at times doesn’t mean it is inspired of the true God or that it is true light. Even devils know the Bible. And even vp taught the value of a counterfeit is the nearness to the genuine. Without some truth deception isn’t possible. True statements or teaching can certainly lead a person to believe the teacher has God’s endorsement at that moment in time. That is not necessarily an accurate conclusion.
How would it be possible to deceive even the very elect without some truth and perhaps even a lot of it?
Overall, did twi teach a true respect for God? Or was it based on taking the Lord’s name in vain (assigning God’s name and endorsement for what He did not endorse, such teaching the Word like it hadn’t been known that he stole from others, snow storms that didn’t exist et al) ego, and idolatry? Did it lead us toward Jesus or away? (Absent Christ). Did it help us love others or did we manifest more hardheartedness than we did to start with? Did it lead us to freedom or bondage? Did we end up without even a basic understanding of what it means to not rely on our own human effort? (See Gal 3 and bewitching).
Did we get better or worse at basics? Or did we have to leave and start all over to understand even these things? Was one of the first things you returned to love God and love your neighbor? If so, why do you think that happened? Could it be you were led away from it? If so, what does that tell you?
The acid test of a false prophet is whether or not the end result is idolatry. All the analysis in the world doesn’t alter that one simple fact. It is NOT whether or not they taught some truth. Even in this situation, of course we can benefit from what was truth.
If you want to understand vp and twi, you have only one question to answer. Did you practice idolatry to any degree while in twi as a direct or indirect result of what you were told and taught?
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rascal
Understood Suda....I guess that my question would be, what in vpw`s life would indicate that he WASN`T a false prophet...a wolf in sheeps clothing?
A wolf is not part of the flock...a wolf infiltrates the flock diguised in order to get close enough to rend and devour thise who would otherwise flee to the shepherd for safety.
I don`t see Jesus cutting the pharacees who hurt God`s people any slack....I don`t see him telling people to apreciate the good and escew the evil...
I see him hold these people in the utmost contempt.
I don`t see vpw as of the same flock....he gathered us about him...immitating the call of the shepherd...he drew us away from the shepherds protection....he offered us green pasture (the word) and while we were distracted... grazing on the riches ...he picked us off one by one for his personal consumption....we were so dadgummed busy focused on what we were eating....blythly trusting that we were under the protection of the shepherd....we relaxed our guard...did not see the need for vigilance..that when it became OUR turn to feel gnashing teeth...not only of the wolf...but those of his whelps that he snuck in while we were unaware...we start bleeting for the shepherds protection...we are bleeding with the flesh torn from us...pitiously...not understanding why we are being consumed...bewildered and wounded...attempting to understand how the wolves came into our midst.
It was brutal and cruel...
I cannot accept that God was at work here. I cannot accept that the just shepherd would call us into danger....
\What I CAN understand that I might have been lured away from his protection ...decieved into following the shepherd away from the safety and protection that was ours.....and then being ravaged because I didn`t have sense enogh to detect the imposter ....enough to run to the real shepherd.
I cannot trust a God that would lead some of us to blessings and sonme of us into rape and death ...I just cannot :(
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Ham
Yep.. and after a while, the soup and doughnuts were not exactly "free" either..
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Ham
I think Capone and these Mogster types knew a little psychology. It is quite easy to get someone to agree, providing they are starving, and you have a few crumbs.
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Ham
If it makes any difference, I'm painting myself with the same brush here..
:)
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Oakspear
Suda:
I think that we agree insofar as Wierwille did evil but that any good derived from his teachings must be evaluated separately from that evil. I also agree that good things happened to people while they were involved in TWI and that people affiliated with TWI did much good.
Where you and I disagree is that you apparently believe that "da class" was overall a good thing and that it overall contained "accurate" bible teachings.
Let me clarify that a little, I'm not saying that every single thing in it was at odds with what's in the bible, or that there was nothing in it that was helpful. Not at all. But that PFAL, as a foundation for studying and understanding the bible was not what it was claimed to be.
Wierwille does a good job early in the class of convincing us that he is a guy who "reads what is written" and lets the bible "interpret itself". But as the class goes on more and more of what he says is backed up by "old documents" that nobody has ever seen, definitions of Greek and Hebrew words that are found in no other concordance or lexicon, and conclusions that are pulled out of the air. Sure, we were taught by Wierwille methods of "researching" the bible, and "working the Word", but how much of what we were taught enabled us not to determine what God's will was, but to confirm what Wierwille taught?
Even post-TWI, so many statements by ex-wayfers are based not on an objective reading of the bible, but are colored by what we learned in TWI.
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Suda
Rascal,
That is something I definitely plan to study along with "inheritance" in Galatians 5. You have provided the "jumping off" place for my need "research" project. My notes are full of things you have said that I want to investigate further. You have been a treasure in my pursuits and I appreciate your questions. Consideration of them raises many excellent questions I want to pursue. Please, keep the coming girlfriend.
Ham,
Your points are solid and well taken. I know little about the history of Capone and his soup lines. From your comments it sounds that they were not altruistic in nature, but rather the bait to snare more people in his web. I defer to your judgment as I'm ignorant on the subject.
Suda
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Suda
Another spot,
Great post and lots of things for me to consider. And I will as I continue to research this topic.
I can honestly say I never turned away from these while in twi, so I could not return to them as I had never left them. They were always of primary importance to me, and have been for as long as I can remember.That will take some real honest self examination, which I will follow through on. At this point, my gut feeling is “no”. I did see vpw as my “Father in the Word” but never saw him as infallible and recognized some of his “berserk” ways. I was confused by them, and chalked them up to “usual human frailties”. But I didn’t give him a pass on them either. So, as I say, some real honest soul searching is needed by me to answer this question. Excellent question. Thanks for bringing it up.
Suda
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another spot
Suda my dear (and I use that expression in all sincerity and from my heart),
My questions were really rhetorical…What was the ultimate result, as opposed to the immediate? The big picture, so to speak.
Dealing with twi is really confusing, difficult, and takes time. Sometimes a lot of time. I also think different ones of us got sucked into it in various parts of it in varying degrees. One reason I think it is hard to come to a consensus one the subject.
I guess the real question is not so much did I or you practice idolatry, but did twi promote it? I think they did.
I agree love God love my neighbor were high priorities with me too all along. But with a lot of introspection I see twi doctrine and belief systems really set me back on those lines to a degree. I didn’t see that over night either.
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Suda
Oakspear,
I think you and I agree on a lot of what you have posted.
My visual picture of the class is like a spider web you see after a hard rain. The web itself would be invisible if it were not for the multitude of tiny droplets of water shining off of it's surface. And those shining droplets represent the gems of truth in the scriptures read in the class. Those scriptures stood alone and brought great joy, healing, and freedom to me. Whether it was because I was "as dumb as a door nail" or because God was working with me to dismiss the underlying web of deceit, I do not know. I found it confusing, was unable to understand it, so I didn't spend much time trying to understand it, but rather dismissed most of it. I was very fortunate that most of the leadership I was around did not espouse the "VPW said it, that settles it" or "PFAL=the Word" (I was always taught there were errors in it and that as research brought new light onto the subject, HQ would change their teachings accordingly - don't think that actually happened - so I didn't put much in "abeyance", I just dismissed it) or "The Ministry=The Word=God". They encouraged individual study and questions and did not "fly off the handle" if my conclusions went against "the party line". My stubbornness in not accepting things unless they bore out my research and/or rang true with my "inner being" or "conscience" probably played a large part in what I kept and what I just dismissed. Bottom line, I guess, is I never felt pressured into accepting things that went against my gut feelings. The few times people pulled that "melt you face until you change your mind" crap on me, I called them on it, and told them they were the ones who needed to change, not me. I would not buckle under such pressure, and so dismissed their efforts, and took anything they said in the future, either to me personally or in a "public, group setting" with a lot of salt, not just a few grains. I did not deem them to be trustworthy.
And I guess since I bucked against what looked "off" to me, I was not drawn into all the deceit. So I see the class as the water droplets and not the web. I understand my experience was different from many. In reality, I think the class for unique for each of us in many ways. But I think I got more water from class than spider web. And since I dimissed any spider web I felt sticking to me, when I look back at the class, that part is largely irrelevant to my experience, so I don't give it much heed. But that's just my opinion of my experience and how it shapes my view of PFAL.
Suda
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What The Hey
I don't know why you-all are pretending to be scared of wolves because I'm definately not convinced that you are. In fact, there is one right here on GSC - Mr. WordWolf. I don't know why I keep coming back - well, other than the fact it really amazes me to see people feigning to be sheep who love to wear wolves clothing.
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Suda
What did PFAL do for me? It taught me a lot of scripture I had never read before because I found it hard to read and understand the KJV and most other versions of the Bible I had been exposed to. It taught me how to understand "KJV Bible-ese" much in the same way my English teacher taught me to understand "Shakespear-ese". From those scriptures I found learned more about who God was, how precious I was to Him as an individual, and what the "desires of His heart" were for me as his beloved child. I finally understood in my heart the love God had for His children. I had been exposed to so much "hell fire and damnation" teaching that went at cross purposes with what I believed God to be. PFAL was the first place that stressed his love, and his desire for tender fellowship with each of His children. This really gave me the foundation upon which I developed a personal and intimate Father-daughter relationship with him.
The research skills were tremendous. I never knew about uncials (sp), cursives, the lack of punctuation and title headings. That answered a lot of my questions as to how and why there were "errors" in the Bible. I had never heard of a Concordance, an Interlinear and all the research books we were introduced to. I finally had to ability to go to the Bible myself, study it and learn it for myself. That was thrilling!
I was glad to have this volume of information presented to me in "crash course" format. It was the scripture alone, on it's own shining as a diamond, and the research skills that I brought away from PFAL. I have no allegiance to the class per se, but the wealth of information provided in the class. And I'm confident other excellent "crash courses" exist in lecture form, DVD form, or a book or series of books. I have not searched for them since taking PFAL because it satisfied what I was looking for at that time. But I think having the knowledge of a "crash course" is a good tool in my belt in helping others to enjoy the same opportunity I had. When I run across something I find to be better than PFAL, I will have no qualms making it my "favorite" in place of PFAL.
"Witnessing to put a class together" always sat at odds with me and I never participated in the "crush". What I consistently did was share my thoughts and opinions in everyday life with anyone with whom the subject came up naturally, and not in by a forced means. If we got to know each other better, and they desired to attend fellowship with me, that was fine. If after being exposed to twig, they expressed a desire to take the class, I was glad to help them register. But I never witnessed PFAL or twig, but rather what God meant to me in my life, to people, and the role PFAL had played in my relationship with God often came up. Obviously, I was not a big "bread winner" in terms of new students for the class, but that was fine with me.
The majority of the notes I took while working through this thread I have not posted here. But here's a response to Tom Strange I made in my notes that seems appropriate to share at this time.
Am really learning from all the feedback. Many thanks to each of you!
Suda
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rascal
Suda, thanks for making the effort to understand where I am coming from. Contrary to popular belief...lol I am NOT out on some personal vendettaagainst vp/twi...in questioning you....these are the questions that I myself am asking....
How COULD God lead one of us to be blessed and one of us to the same group to die? Why wasn`t the one who died protected?
How could God get credit for leading one of us to vpw to learn something and another to him to be drugged and raped??
What I am asking is WHAT in vpw`s life would give any indication that he wasn`t a false prophet....a wolf in sheeps clothing...a man of the flesh with no inheritance in the kingdom of God??
Just because we liked what scripture that he didn`t manage to butcher into some self serving doctrine...
What I am saying is....a false p[rophet has to look an awfull lot like a real one in order to succede in fooling anybody and leading them away from God.
I believe that coming to grips with what he was...with what he taught us is important in understanding what needs to be re examined.
Suda...I love that you and I can talk about this as reasonable people. That you and I have a friendship built on mutual respect and admiration.
I am glad that we can discuss these issues. I am glad that you are patient with me and share what you find so that I can grow and be a better person.
Love you girl...please keep me informed on what you find in your studies. I am very interested.
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Jeaniam
The first post was John, this one is me. John rarely posts under my name, I forget to check who's signed in fairly frequently. I agree that there were warning signs late in our involvement with TWI that seemed to suggest that leaving might have been a wise idea.
We were having a discussion recently on the subject of whether it's wise to dwell too much on the devil. It seemed that TWI began to do that in the later days. It seems to me that if we focus on doing God's will we will defeat the purposes of the devil in the natural course of things; whereas it seems to me that if we focus on defeating the devil, it is something of an unhealthy mindset, as then we are using the devil for our primary center of reference instead of God.
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tonto
Rascal and Suda, I hope you don't mind if I interject a couple of things which are (at least in my mind) related. Rascal, you asked:
The same can be asked about the churches where the altar boys were molested by their priests. Or about the young women, older women, any age women...seeking counsil from their preacher only to be coherced into "blessing" the man of God sexually (this has happened locally in so many different Protestant churches that I've lost count). These folks were just looking for a "closer walk with Thee"...but look what happened to them, yet there are probably people in those congregations who have been blessed by some aspect of their ministries.
I'm not saying that I don't think vpw wasn't a false prophet or a wolf in sheep's clothing, and I'm not saying he was...I don't know. I tend to lean toward thinking maybe he was born again but left his trap door wide open by being a slave to ego and lust. Then again...how could he do what he did? I go 'round and 'round and 'round with this and I figure I won't know until judgement. I just know that if he really was born again and will be in heaven with us, I want a room waaaaaaaay far away from his...in another zip code, if heaven has zip codes. :lol:
Anyway, I do believe that the mainstream churches of the early 70's failed the youth miserably. There just wasn't a whole lot being offered in the way of "hot Bible" teachings...well, not unless you counted the hellfireandbrimstone variety of preaching. No real Bible study to speak of...no research for the average Joe. I just remember too many rigid rules and judgements about the way kids dressed and the length of their hair.
There's more I'd like to say, but I'm starting to bore myself, so thanks for listening.
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Suda
Rascal,
Best way I know how to answer these questions at this time is:
First of all, my belief is that a false prophet is of the devil. Do we agree on this point?
If what I believe is true, why would the devil lead us to an organization where we would find (for the first time or not) the information to get us born again? What possible reason would he have? Some may say so he could then steal it from us, and kill our relationship with God. But to me he would want to prevent the new birth first and foremost. And if unable to do that then steal and kill it.
And I do not believe God brought people to vpw. I think he brought people to the information that he presented which represented God and in was presented in a format that would reach us. And, as importantly, God brough us to the fellowship of believers among whom to grow and mature spiriutally. I've been involved with a lot of Christian groups in my life, but never have I found anything close to the people multitudes I found in twi, not only their caliber, but the zeal and excitement they had for learning to put God first, and helping each other do the same. The people are unparalled anywhere else in my experience.
Many of us heard the Bible other places, and were born again, but I don't know how many had the caliber of fellowship, except in those dynamic ministries that vpw so skillfully attracted and then abolished their leaders, kidnapping many of the followers in the process.
In PFAL we were introduced to the information of how to discern between truth and error. However, when we say it in twi, we were talked out of accepting the reality, and often brow beaten into submission. But in that process, how many of us had thoughts of "This is wrong." "This is not right according the to scriptures nor morals nor ethics." "Listen to your heart, your guts, don't be deceived". That was God in there trying to protect us. Some heeded to one degree or another, others did not. If we failed to heed the admonitions of God, we got hurt, and badly. But that was not due to God, that was due to the devil.
Why were we called to "a ministry" where good and evil were so intertwined? We weren't. We were not called to vpw or twi or PFAL. We were called to God and His people, who, at that particular point and time, seemed to be centered around twi due in a large part to kidnapped ministries of other men. And twi had a vehicle for quick, efficient, widespread reach of those hungering for the truth that the other ministries lacked. So they jumped on the bandwagon, at least temporarily, and added their voices to the call to PFAL. Those men, along with many of the ministers affiliated with twi were salt of the earth men who did truely strive to honestly serve God and His people. Many who saw the evil left, and were so berated that we did not consider following them when we should have. And of those left, the ministers fell largely into two camps (1) ignorant to the underbelly or (2) active in it. Those ignorant could not protect us due to their ignorance. God had to protect us. And if we failed to "register" His warnings, we did not heed them, and we got hurt.
How did we get tricked by the adversary? I don't know for sure. But as so much emphasis was placed on discerning the good from the bad, and it was drilled into our heads that twi was the best thing available on earth, we were tricked into thinking "can't be any bad here, must be all good". If they were hiding something, why would they tell us how to detect it? Because that was the devils big trick and it worked wonderfully. We accepted the good and the misrepresented scripture as truth, not the deep, darkest evils. And as we adopted the misrepresenation of scripture and misapplication of it, it led us from God to the devils spider web and we got caught. But God did warn us, we just failed to comprehend the warnings. Those were more subtle than the sexual and emotional abuse. And that's how we were hurt.
That's the best I can explain it right now.
And on a different note, I've read a lot recently about the "absent Christ". It is obviously one of those things I heard and dismissed. But I do plead ignorance to not having a real relationship with Jeus Christ. I know he is my Savior, I know what He accomplished for me, I know He is my mediator with God, but I don't know how to practically apply that knowledge. I may well be misapplying some attributes of Jesus Christ to God. Any good books on this subject, or body of teaching, anyone can direct me to? I'd love to learn more about it so that Jesus Christ can be as living and real in my life as God is. Many thanks.
Suda
edited to add Tonto and I must have been posting simultaneously.
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Suda
Another Spot,
In answer to your question:
I realize that there are posters here, and well as lurkers that are near and dear to my heart, that regard VPW as their "Father in the Word" and that my thoughts and observations could hurt them to read and may hurt more coming from me. I considered their reactions thoughtfully. But I felt more compelled to ask my questions and share my observations and thoughts in order to receive feedback than to protect their feelings.
Am I saying God asked me to do that? No, just that I felt compelled. I do feel He has inspired me during my work through this thread, but I will not attribute all my thoughts and observations to Him. Many are just mine. And it's often difficult for me to discern the difference between them.
Suda
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skyrider
Suda....that's pretty much the way I view it, too.
Someday, I'll have to dig out Mrs. Wierwille's book from my attic......but IIRC here is a brief timeline:
1) In 1941/42..........Wierwille and his denominational leaders are wanting to part their association.
2) In 1942...............VPW starts his "baby steps" as an independent pastor.
3) From 1941-53......VPW is unable to move forward and becomes depressed, ready to quit.
4) March 1953.........VPW heads to Calgary Alberta to attend Rev. BG Leonard's class
5) Jun/Jul 1953........VPW and Mrs. and Don (and two carloads of congregants) attend BG's class.
6) Oct 1953.............VPW runs his own class....no syllabus, no charts, no handouts
7) From 1941-53......This accounts for the 12 YEARS where vp claims he studied nothing but the Word.
8) From 1953-67......14 years -- vpw studies Bullinger, Stiles, Kenyon -- adding to "his work"
9) PFAL class filmed and ready for distribution.......Timing is EVERYTHING.
10) Jesus Movement and Music is sweeping the country......becoming more mainstream.
11) Doxp, Hefnxr and others.....vpw persuades and engrafts their ministries and work into twi.
12) Genuine, youthful ministries bring zeal and FIRE......vpw has struck "spiritual gold."
13) Summer Camps, ROA, WOW program......magnets drawing people to Ohio.
14) Songs of Jesus, love, peace......even the early twi songbooks were more worship and praise to God.
15) Corps program.....the first corps program failed (tagged "the zero corps")
16) More programs, more bureacracy.......more money flowing, more unaccountability
17) Motorcoaches, planes, campuses........increased image & mystique & power
18) MOG-Idolatry is hitting its zenith and wierwille basks in his long-awaited narcisstic status.
19) Darkness rules at hq.......abuses, abortions, rapes, cover-ups, silencers, sordid circles of compliance.
20) Wierwille dies of cancer....and wanted his epitaph to read, "I wish I were the man I know to be."
I shall forever be thankful for Waydale and GS posters who've helped me to assemble this puzzling dichotomy of a man who so many rendered "The Man of God." And, although I've seen blessings and healings and deliverance during my twi tenure, because of the engrafting of other true ministers and their work.......I also know WHY twi spiraled down into the throes of hell.
True freedom never smelled SO GOOD.
:)
PS.....Of course, only the first few are documented in Mrs. W's book.
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another spot
Ok. Thanks, Suda. The sentence confused me.
Eyesopen and I are working on the false prophet thing. She's done more work on it than I have. She has a fantastic post on Romans 1 on the Spiritual Abuse thread, explaining it relates to people who hold or suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Turns out the chapter has to do with people who knew the truth at one time and turned away from it, and what happens in their lives when they do this.
I do appreciate your posts, although I am a real late comer to the thread. I for one have a very difficult time seeing anything positive from twi. It really takes effort to do so. I did like your description of water on a spider web. I was thinking along similar lines last nite. I also thought about now that I am away from twi, I actually use some of the resources I learned to separate the chaff from the wheat of twi. I am inclined to think part of the healing is arriving at a truthful, realistic, and balanced view of it. With an open mind.....in order see where God was at work and where He was not. That seems to be the real confusion. Identifying the roles. I did this, God did this, the devil did this.
The thing is, vp did abuse women. He really was into power and control which is emotional abuse. It takes a certain type of person to do so. Meaning their conscience doesn't bother them to use others for their own satisfaction. It isn't something a person turns on or off like a light switch. Conscience isn't a matter of sinning one minute and being right on the next. It is a major character flaw for which is spiritual reasons. Now, whether that is a matter of being a false prophet or someone who has turned away from God after knowing the truth is another question. Also, can a false prophet have ever known the truth. These are questions Eyes and I are working on. I can see a case for either leading to idolatry based on Eye's Romans 1 post.
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WhiteDove
Suda here is the link to The B. G. & E. T. Leonard Ministries
here
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Suda
Thanks, White Dove. Looks like lots of good reading available. Will check local bookstores, too.
Suda
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