A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL

[rascal]

??? I asked you that question in all earnestness. Why WOULD a christian think that it was alright to act that way?? Is it pfal doctrine that makes this otherwise creepy behavior somehow acceptible??

and why would it matter one bit when I signed out of chat??? How totally freaking wierd ... I had been there for close to an hour and finished speaking with all there and bid them goodnight....... I don`t understand your point at all ...

Sometimes I keep two windows open and post and chat at the same time gasp!!! .......gulp I MUST be posessed :blink:

Larry, my guess is that your sole purpose here is to disrupt an otherwise productive discussion, I wish that you would examine yourself, examine your motives, determine what it is in you that makes you believe that it is ok to mistreat people

Edited August 5, 2007 by rascal

[Larry N Moore]

??? I asked you that question in all earnestness. Why WOULD a christian think that it was alright to act that way?? Is it pfal doctrine that makes this otherwise creepy behavior somehow acceptible??

Well, the way I "see" it is -- there was nothing "earnest" in your question at all. Especially when you say the following crap:". . . . worse trying to deliberately derail the progress being made with inane talk about golf....WHY of WHY would you begrudge someone the kindness of a sympathetic ear?? WHY would you try to shut the people up whom are doing the ministering?? Why would you deliberatly obstruct the goodness of what is being accomplished by God on this thread???

You guys just don`t see how cruel you are...it is bewildering....I can only surmise what it is in you that causes such callousness...such blindness to the harm that you cause."

The only "progress" I saw was people attacking people for having different points of views. THAT AIN'T PROGRESS!!!!!!!

Furthermore -- I at no time during my tenure here accused ANYONE of lying about their experiences while in TWI. If you can find one such accusation made by me then I owe an apology to THAT PERSON. I owe you nothing and nothing is what you're going to get.

And finally -- Don't preach to me about what a Christian is or does to show they are a Christian. You've been weighed in the balances and have come up on the light side. In other words -- I don't give a rat's a$$ what you think a Christian is suppose to do. Stick that crap where the sun don't shine.

[dmiller]

Speaking of being rude:

Don't you think it's rude to join a live chat and walk away from your fellow chatters just to make another pointless point?

Larry must not know how chat works, Rascal.

He might be the admin of SEVERAL boards,

but he (obviously) hasn't a clue about chat. ;)

[Larry N Moore]

Larry must not know how chat works, Rascal.

He might be the admin of SEVERAL boards,

but he (obviously) hasn't a clue about chat. ;)

Yep. That must be it. I'm clueless (even though you're the one who obviously lacks reading comprehension skills).

[doojable]

I see we need another course on breathing.

What I "see" and "hear" here is two different discussions going on.

Rascal knows from the inside (her gut and personal experience) what healing has been in progress.

Larry has another focus and sees a different result.

I'm not in the mood to quote scripture here (Yes, I know I'm evil ) but I distinctly remember a verse in Ephesians that tells us that we war not against flesh and blood.

Pick and choose the real battles - then fight the real enemy.

As a parent I know how irritating it is for my kids to bicker. It really becomes irrelevant to me who's right and who's wrong. I can only imagine that God feels this way as well.

[Larry N Moore]

I see we need another course on breathing.

What I "see" and "hear" here is two different discussions going on.

Rascal knows from the inside (her gut and personal experience) what healing has been in progress.

Larry has another focus and sees a different result.

I'm not in the mood to quote scripture here (Yes, I know I'm evil ) but I distinctly remember a verse in Ephesians that tells us that we war not against flesh and blood.

Pick and choose the real battles - then fight the real enemy.

As a parent I know how irritating it is for my kids to bicker. It really becomes irrelevant to me who's right and who's wrong. I can only imagine that God feels this way as well.

Well, gee whiz Dooj. I did warn rascal not to "pass the basket" 'cause I might spit in it. He chose to ignore my warning. :)

[dmiller]

Well, gee whiz Dooj. I did warn rascal not to "pass the basket" 'cause I might spit in it. He chose to ignore my warning. :)

Pssssst --- Hey Larry -- Rascal is a SHE, not a HE.

Shows how much attention you pay to the folks here.

I guess you're too wrapped up in your agenda, to recognize gender.

:)

[doojable]

Larry,

First off Rascal is a "she."

Second - Why go there?

I mean - what is the point? Why engage in a p(ssing match over all this? (Honest question here - I'm talking just as I would if I were there in real life..)

[rascal]

Thanks Dooj....I just cannot understand why someone would deliberately deny a person God`s blessing with attacks....or to deliberately obstruct healing that is taking place for another....to conciously try to hurt another.....I just don`t get that kind of orneriness :(

I guess since I cannot fathom you or your nor understand your motives larry, I`ll just put you on ignore.

Thank you Dave...I don`t understand it. I only know that the determination to inflict pain is bewildering :(

Edited August 5, 2007 by rascal

[Larry N Moore]

Larry,

First off Rascal is a "she."

Second - Why go there?

I mean - what is the point? Why engage in a p(ssing match over all this? (Honest question here - I'm talking just as I would if I were there in real life..)

Dooj, it's very simple. If rascal had taken the time to pay attention to what followed after Dot made her point and a few other comments were made and then a voice of reason came along -- You -- and called for a time out and the subsequent comments were light-hearted or fluff (if you prefer) then perhaps she might not have GONE THERE with her post that amounted to nothing more than "stirring the pot" again. I can only surmise that either she didn't bother reading the posts from the point of Dot's last post or he deliberately choose to GO THERE and try to start a ....ING CONTEST. Could I have ignore it. Sure. But obviously SHE has some need to attract attention to HERSELF. I was just giving HER what she seemed to crave. Attention.

In any case this has all become moot if in fact she follows through on her intent to put me on ignore. Problem solved. :)

Edited August 5, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[doojable]

To be fair, I'm don't think that Larry's intention was to "inflict pain."

I think that he was trying to keep a sh(t storm that he saw on the horizon from bearing down with the force of Hurricane Katrina.

Time to breathe.... In...out.....In....out...

[dmiller]

Yep. That must be it. I'm clueless (even though you're the one who obviously lacks reading comprehension skills).

Thanks for the *compliment*. :)

I'll work harder at it.

You might try to do the same.

You quoted Dooj where she mentioned that Rascal was a woman, not a man.

I guess you could use some *brushing up* on reading skills as well, eh??

[doojable]

Dooj, it's very simple. If rascal had taken the time to pay attention to what followed after Dot made her point and a few other comments were made and then a voice of reason came along -- You -- and called for a time out and the subsequent comments were light-hearted or fluff (if you prefer) then perhaps she might not have GONE THERE with her post that amounted to nothing more than "stirring the pot" again. I can only surmise that either she didn't bother reading the posts from the point of Dot's last post or he deliberately choose to GO THERE and try to start a ....ING CONTEST. Could I have ignore it. Sure. But obviously SHE has some need to attract attention to HERSELF. I was just giving HER what she seemed to crave. Attention.

In any case this has all become moot if in fact she follows through on her intent to put me on ignore. Problem solved. :)

There's a real part of me that wants to say, "Hey! Grow up dude! You can't play the superior intellect, forum savvy, bon vivant on one hand and then turn around and act like a finger pointing kindergardener on the other hand.

You know as well as I do that posts criss cross and sometimes folks just aren't done getting it all out.

YOU KNOW! - The child role doesn't fit you well...

Ok I need to go do some things so that I don't come across as being the big bad parent here...

I just came in for a cup of coffee...

Edited August 5, 2007 by doojable

[Larry N Moore]

There's a real part of me that wants to say, "Hey! Grow up dude! You can't play the superior intellect, forum savvy, bon vivant on one hand and then turn around and act like a finger pointing kindergardener on the other hand.

You know as well as I do that posts criss cross and sometimes folks just aren't done getting it all out.

YOU KNOW! - The child role doesn't fit you well...

Ok I need to go do some things so that I don't come across as being the big bad parent here...

I just came in for a cup of coffee...

Dooj, with all due respect I could take you chastisement a little more seriously if you weren't directing it all at me. If a person wants to skip over subsequent posts in their eagerness to get their 2 cents in I call that -- well -- ignorant. Go drink your cup of coffee.

[doojable]

Okay, fair enough. I'm not really aiming it all at you - you just seem to be the person most likely to respond.

I called for a breather on both sides. And I did say this:

To be fair, I'm don't think that Larry's intention was to "inflict pain."

I think that he was trying to keep a sh(t storm that he saw on the horizon from bearing down with the force of Hurricane Katrina.

Time to breathe.... In...out.....In....out...

Edited August 5, 2007 by doojable

[Larry N Moore]

Okay, fair enough. I'm not really aiming it all at you - you just seem to be the person most likely to respond.

Well, ok. If I didn't like you and think you could handle my responses I probably wouldn't.

I called for a breather on both sides.

I know. You did it twice.

Do you like your coffee black? I like mine with French Vanilla creamer. :)

Edited August 5, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[doojable]

Black - but I'm gonna make that a double espresso! ;)

[Larry N Moore]

Black - but I'm gonna make that a double espresso! ;)

:) Well to each their own. (If there was one I would insert a "clinking glasses" emote here -- absent that -- Cheers!). And goodnite.

[GarthP2000]

Any bets on how fast this entire thread will wind up down into the Soap Opera section?

[dmiller]

Any bets on how fast this entire thread will wind up down into the Soap Opera section?

Hmmmmmm. I'm not a betting man -- but if I were ----

:biglaugh:

[WordWolf]

Anyone around here care to demonstrate their superior grasp of the rudiments of Christ by seizing

the moral high ground and refraining from cheapshots against their fellow Christians,

for whom Christ died?

[johniam]

It seems like the difference between this thread and others that have gone this route is that EVERY one of the principles have fully dropped their gloves. Before, some were blunt and others tried to be tactful, but everybody is turned up to 10 on this one. Might be a good thing. There's a sense of freedom in being totally honest because you can't always say exactly what you think to people in a lot of situations, but here we can.

If somebody really went off the deep end and tried to find out where somebody lived and wanted to hurt or kill them, that would be different, but I've never heard any news item about that happening on any internet forum.

[WordWolf]

Can everybody breathe for a minute?

Look- there's a lot of pain here. A lot of hand holding and a lot of wanting to do the right thing.

Let's stop focusing on each other for a minute and see the real danger. If we bite and devour each other where do we stand?

I believe with all my heart that each person in this fight right now wants to see real genuine GODLY healing happen here. Let's get to it...

[Suda]

What's Happening in this Thread?

Page 1

Hot Buttons and Passions

Finally I have some time to devote attention to this thread. Here are some of my observations, be they right or wrong.

All was going “smoothly” until post #9 when Oldiesman stated

I still believe most of what was taught in PFAL , yet do acknowledge the actual errors.

But those three teachings you mentioned were some real goodies of PFAL. Am thankful for VP teaching them.

I added the bold to his statements to identify two hot buttons that were pushed and seem to always get a lot of response in the forums because many posters here have a passionate points of view on these (and some other) subjects, and, because of their passion, feel a need to express their point of view. That, imo, is a main purpose of GSC, to allow people to dialogue and express their opinions and passions, and for all of us to learn from the input.

Groucho responds in post #10 to the hot button with

Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong...

However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not God...like Catcup, I learned these things before I ever heard of twi.

As far as being "thankful" to Mr. Wierwille...I'm afraid that the severe damage that he inflicted on so many people in his life overshadows any thoughts of "thankfulness" on my part...

In post #5, Catcup had also stated that she had knowledge of the things Doreen had first learned in PFAL through the Southern Baptist Church and a charismatic movement. Was the fact that she learned these truths outside of PFAL a hot button for Oldiesman? I’m not sure, but it has crossed my mind in observing his passion for speaking about his thankfulness for the PFAL class because of the many things he learned from it.

Then in post #12 exwaycorps points to the distinction some here make:

THE TEACHER IS NOT MY POINT, IT'S THE SUBJECT MATTER I CHERISH.

He clarifies his thoughts, and makes an observation familiar to many posters here

How the minstry I loved so much turned into such an evil, regimented, heartless cesspool is WAY(no pun) beyond me.

Thank God I was taught to "Take the best and leave the rest". Sad that some of the "leaving" includes your memories of people you once thought to be among the most awesome on this earth.

I know you guys can relate. We live, we learn,we certainly never give up.

His post brings into focus another hot topic - how do we untangle the incongruence between who we thought vpw to be (to some, the kind grandfather whose sole desire in life was to teach us the Bible and how to apply it to our lives and only had our best interests at heart) and how our trust of him led some to accept his words without question (to varying degrees) AND what we think of vpw now, and how this hindsight influences our trust in his teaching now, today, as we view them in light of who he was in private verus in his "public persona". This, to me, is the biggest dilemma and quandary faced by those who were associated with “the early days, or twi1, or the era of vpw” whether they discovered the incongruence during their time with twi or after severing ties with the organization. The incongruence was so shocking and bewildering that it plunged many of us into a deep quagmire of uncertainty and doubt. Some took the plunge quickly, others tread slowly into it, some may still be fighting entrance into it. For those who entered, we had to fight our way through and out of that quagmire, and it required much deep consideration and soul searching to resurface. Upon emergence, our thoughts about PFAL and vpw fell all along a continuum, from “Believe all I was taught” to “Believe nothing I was taught” and everything in between; and “vpw was a good person who had human frailties like all of us” and “he was an evil person lacking of any good”, and everything in between. And because of the emotional turmoil we experienced and overcame to varying degrees, many are passionate to expound their viewpoints on the subjects. Often, the intensity of the passion is equal to the intensity of the emotional turmoil experienced. I doubt that there will ever be a “like mindedness” of the posters at GSC on these two questions nor should there be. Instead we must each come to our individual conclusions. But we should be able to allow each person the freedom to choose their own opinion, and respect their right to their opinion, even if it is completely different from our own.

Whenever this incongruence and quagmire surface, the passions run deep, hot buttons are pushed furiously, and another food fight at the café starts. In the case of this thread, and many others, it continues in full blown intensity for a time.

Another hot topic, first posted by johniam in #13 is forgiveness. What it is (how is it defined Biblically or otherwise from our personal point of view); under what circumstances it is to be given (does the offender have to ask? Must the victim give it without being asked to relieve themselves of the bitterness? Etc.); is it always appropriate?; what does the Bible say about it (filtered through our own mind); etc., etc.

In post #17, skyrider points out one of the many reasons there will never be “likemindedness” on the incongruence and quagmire by when he states, partially in jest,

Well........After corps "training" my stereotype of twi was that if you step out of line just a little, you will be labeled a cop-out and might go to hell.

We all had different levels of exposure to vpw. For some it limited only to the PFAL class or other “public persona” times such as on stage at Limb, Regional, or Trunk functions such as the ROA. The more exposure we had to him, and those who represented him (those in leadership positions, corps), the more we learned about him as a “whole person”. His “human imperfections” affected us in different ways, depending upon whether they were received as direct or indirect, viewed as being within the bounds of acceptable behavior or overstepping our boundaries of comfort and extending beyond our concept of “the norm”. The incongruence became evident to some, remained hidden to others. Some could overlook or dismiss it, some could not. Some saw the variance to be wide, others narrow. Personal perceptions differed widely.

*****End of review of page 1 (of 42 at present) of this thread*****

Humorous but truthful observations, such as the one above by skyrider mentioned above, are received as literal by some, such as johniam in post #25. Some people are staking their ground, limiting their focus to their passions, and becoming intolerant of and blinded to anything outside that limited realm of vision.

In post #29, TheHighWay brings out another important difference between posters here - at what point in our lives we came in contact with twi. It can have a huge effect on how we received the information presented in PFAL and other avenues of teaching of twi. Those who were younger and not equipped with many life experiences tended to be more impressionable and accepted more things at face value without questioning. Those who came from backgrounds of manipulation and abuse, and suffered low self esteem from such, tended to be more pliable, also. Those who were older and more grounded as a individual when introduced to twi, had an easier time sifting through the information presented and choosing to accept some and discard other “facts” presented to them. On average, they seemed to find it less difficult to “stay true to themselves” and act according to the moral compass established during their lifetime to date. They were more aware of the attempts at manipulation and coercion and were better equipped to avoid succumbing to them.

Bramble, in post #31, points to the downfall of twi, when loyalty and commitment were transferred from God to an organization. Those with greater exposure to and/or involvement with the “organized structure” of twi were more aware of this proposition; many out on the “field” were ignorant of it. Some saw no proposition nor distinction, but thought loyalty and commitment to God and twi were one in the same as they believed twi to be the only “real source” of truth.

End of page 2 (of 44 pages to date)

All the time I have now. Hope I can return soon.

Suda

[Dot Matrix]

To Excath:

Listen, do not look around you on this thread. Look up and behold the lamb of God who I believe has chosen this thread and this time to heal you. Who cares if it isn’t on the right day (the Sabbath) = the correct thread.

While they strive to write down positive things about a long ago class, and bring up good things that God did for them when they believed the Bible, they are missing a healing that is taking place in your life.

There is a book on healing by Smith Wigglesworth. There was this Vicar whom God had told Smith to go and heal. When he got there the WHOLE town was telling him it could not be done. So, Smith went in and prayed for this emasciated skin and bones man, who had been sick for years, prayed for without deliverance, and had given up. Meaning the environment was not really great to heal someone. But God broke through all of that communal crap and delivered the Vicar.

Today, this is your time. On this Forum, in this thread to allow God to heal you. There are people listening. More importantly Jesus hears you and has seen your struggle.

You were raped.

Not by a stranger behind a bush, but by a trusted person of the cloth who offered to drive you to see your fiancé. You thought you would be safe. After all, HE knew you had a fiancé and were going to see him. You thought that meant he would not try again to seduce you, especially as HE and your fiancé knew each other very well.

You take a drink and your mind responds differently than it EVER had. You cannot fight back, you go into a foggy world of black and white film that sputters and the timing is off and someone holds you down, it is the man you trusted. But why? You are unable to fight; your mind floats away protectively as your body is forced to have it happen.

You see your fiancé and you feel guilty. You feel dirty.

You are NOT responsible for what happened to you. You do NOT need to feel dirty or guilty. Right now in the name of Jesus Christ I pray the feelings of guilt and bondage away from you. In the name of Jesus Christ I tell those deceptive feelings they have to go. In the name of Jesus Christ I pray that your cracked and battered core be whole and that the need for any crutch for survival be replaced by Jesus our Lord. Look up Exxie. Feel the warmth on your face and in your heart. Feel the tingle of love. Do not question if God loved you it would not have happened.

He LOVES you. You did nothing to stop his love, VP did it, and even he can not stop the love of God. It is not anything God EVER wanted to happen. HE let his son die on a cross at the hands of horrible people to deliver you this very moment.

Let him be your savior again, let him take you away from the anguish this life has caused you, let him take you to the mountain top – a healed and a new woman.

I pray this and claim this for your life right NOW.

Thank you Jesus as your angels flock to her side, thank you Jesus as you pick up her shattered soul and build her into a new creature in Christ. Thank you as you will NEVER leave her or forsake her.

Exxie, forget the crap around you, on this thread, anywhere. Look up and let Jesus fix your brokenness with his wholeness….

Take it in.

Thank you Jesus. Thank you Jesus. Thank you.

Get off this thread and claim deliverance. Do not care how the community responds – I don’t. Be healed sweet daughter, sweet flower of the Lord’s.

Do not be embarrassed, do not respond right now, go soak up his love, let the anger out. Yell if you have to yell. Yell at the heavens for they will still love you. Yell at the memory and claim that you have over come it. Kick the wall, feel the release, let his peace wash over you. Be healed.

Edited August 5, 2007 by Dot Matrix