Laryy, you've fallen prey to a common pitfall: that of misrepresenting the Calvinist view in your argument. I suppose that would make it a straw man.
It's an important point in this discussion, and I'll go ahead and assume the Bible as our common text if that's okay with you. Pursuant to which, you'll find that the use of free will in the Bible has very serious limitations, mainly in freewill offerings. Nevertheless, I think it's possible to view God as sovereign (in a cosmic & biblical sense) and leave man's limited free will intact. I say limited because that's all the Bible seems to grant him.
The idea that one is saved because they have 'made a choice for Christ' and by their own free will believed in him is erroneous. Biblical salvation is not so neatly formulaic. We were indeed chosen and foreordained, or so the Bible says. When the Holy Spirit revealed to us Jesus and our need for him, we believed. We were previously incapable of believeing because the natural man is capable of receiving the things of the Spirit of God...they are foolishness to him.
I see limited foreknowledge as a natural outgrowth of the man-centered, freedom-of-will religion represented by Wierwille. Hey, we are in charge, right? Not God...
Many opinions expressed so far are predicated on the assumption that we are concerned with only one deity.
Yet it's estimated by F.C. Baur that about half the population of Christians throughout the Roman empire during the first three centuries held to the belief in two gods – the Creator deity of the Old Testament, and the new “Supreme” deity revealed through Christ in the New Testament.
To touch only a couple examples from Marcion’s Antithesis (as reconstructed from Tertullian’s Adversus Marcionem):
Jesus Christ and none else revealed a new God, who, in the Old world and in the Old time and under the Old God was unknown and unheard of ; Whom is accounted by no one through long centuries back, and ancient in men's very ignorance of Him - even in ancient names He was unknown and concealed. He had remained unknown by any works from the beginning. Even the Creator was unaware of the Supreme God being above himself, Who, although He did not manifest Himself from the beginning and by means of the creation, has yet revealed Himself in Christ Jesus….
The Creator called out to Adam, "Where art thou?" as if ignorant of where Adam was; and when Adam alleged that the shame of his nakedness was the reason for hiding himself, the Creator inquired whether he had eaten of the tree, as if he were in doubt (Genesis 3:9-11)... Whereas Jesus – unlike the “Creator” – actually perceived what was in the hearts of men (Luke 5:22).
Laryy, you've fallen prey to a common pitfall: that of misrepresenting the Calvinist view in your argument.
I don't really think so Evan. Of course I may have been relying on questionable sources for acquiring knowledge on what the Calvinist doctrine happens to be.
In Calvinism, this election is called "unconditional" because his (God's) choice to save someone does not hinge on anything inherent in the person or on any act that the person performs or belief that the person exercises. Indeed, according to the doctrine of total inability (the first of the five points of Calvinism), the influence of sin has so inhibited the individual's volition that no one is willing or able to come to or follow God apart from God first regenerating the person's heart to give them the ability to love him.Hence, God’s choice in election is and can only be based solely on God's own independent and sovereign will and not upon the foreseen actions of man.
Okay, so you don't believe in foreordination...which would obviously go hand in hand with limited knowledge. What, then, do you do with scriptures that proclaim foreordination/predestination? Are they, what, a figure of speech? 'Orientalism'?
I think that when the time was right, this Supreme God became declared by the one chosen to declare. Just as we evolve in maturity, the scriptures describe this very thing that happens within us.
The Lord God breathing life into man and Holy Spirit emptying self into man.
Okay, so you don't believe in foreordination...which would obviously go hand in hand with limited knowledge. What, then, do you do with scriptures that proclaim foreordination/predestination? Are they, what, a figure of speech? 'Orientalism'?
That's a good question. I'm not sure I can give an equally good answer but, I would start with this passage from 1 Timothy 2, verse four.
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This in itself should cause one pause when considering the Calvinist's doctrine. How can it be said that God's will is for all men to be saved and then possibly reconcile this verse with those which Calvinists believes supports the theology that God has selected/elected certain people to be saved and certain other people to damnation? Well, I believe the only way to reconcile it is by thinking of pre-ordination/predestination in terms of God's will. In other words -- salvation is available to all men because God pre-ordained it long before man ever makes the choice to align him/herself with God's will. In other words -- If it wasn't God's WILL for people to be saved no one could be saved.
Let me put my thinking in terms of a simple analogy.
Long, long ago God decided to throw a dinner party. That was His will. Having made that decision a party of just one isn't much of a party. So He sent out invitations to everyone in the world. Some responded to the invitation and others chose not to. So the party takes place. The only reason why the "guests" are there is because God preordained/predestinated that they should be. He sent them an invitation. No one was preordained/predestinated to go to "hell". That was their choice when they chose not to accept the dinner invitation.
According to the doctrine I cited -- it implies that God sent invitations only to a select few. If that is true then the saying in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. is not true.
I think it's really more a case that those, who put forth such doctrine, must reconcile those difficult verses with the simple ones. I don't see where they have. Do you?
Dan, read Larry's post again. He said "Just because God has limitations...."
Those are his words, not mine.
If Larry's God has limitations - and that's what Larry believes (this is a current Geer teaching - I know of no other offshoots personally teaching this, thus, I do not believe Larry was being truthful to you when he stated he has no affiliations with anyone to you) - who am I to question what he believes? Good for him for believing that.
He says his God has "limitations." Thus, his God is smaller than mine.
My God does not have limitations. Who am I, as his creation, to decide what "limitations" my creator has? Who are any of us to impose "limitations" on God - it is total pride and arrogance of the creation to do so.
Larry's reply to my post, was - as is his constant habit - another questioning, you are wrong, blah, blah post designed to get someone to argue with him. No more, he can find other people to sucker into going round and round with him.
Dan, you say maybe I'm not listening?
What are you talking about? If to Larry, well you are correct. If to God - don't even go there. You know nothing about my relationship with him and Christ.
After seeing how Larry has recently joined GS and destroyed pretty much every thread he's ever been on with obtuse questions, strawmans, yelling at those he disagrees with, with a ridiculous avatar - projecting he's some "wise one," why, at this point would I want to listen to him? I could care less about what he thinks. Why should I respect him?
Maybe I'm not listening to him - that's correct - and I will continue to skip over his posts. I will not waste my time with him anymore. Done.
You can kowtow to him all you want - I thought you were smarter than that.
P.S. To add to the above -- If free-will does not exist then you can't judge someone who chooses not to believe in God. Such a person had no choice because God had preordained that such a man would not believe.
That is the basis for the objection against unconditional election that is anticipated by Paul in Romans 9:19 and dismissed (without any philosophical explanation) in Romans 9:20-21.
A further important proof that Paul taught the doctrine which Calvinists have understood him to teach is found in the objections which he put in the mouths of his opponents, that it represented God as unrighteous: "Is there unrighteousness with God?" Rom. 9:14; and, that it destroyed man's responsibility: "Thou wilt then say unto me, Why doth He still find fault? For who withistandeth His will?" Rom. 9:19. These are the very objections which today, on first thought, spring into men's minds, in opposition to the Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination; but they have not even the least plausibility when directed against the Arminian doctrine. A doctrine which does not afford the least grounds for these objections cannot have been the one that the Apostle taught.
For a discussion about the tension between God’s unconditional predestination of only the elect to salvation and God’s desire that all men be saved, see John Piper’s “Are There Two Wills in God? (Divine Election and God’s Desire for All to Be Saved) at http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary...o_Wills_in_God/ . Piper shows that Scripture indicates God wills some things in one way that he does not will in another way.
Note to Sunesis:
In addition to Geer, both John Schoenheit and John Lynn (I don’t know about the other fellow) have promoted a claim that God lacks complete foreknowledge.
Note to all:
I have several commitments that will be increasingly demanding of my thoughts and time, and I probably will not (after this post) be involved in discussions at GSC for a while.
Predestined, foreordained and more.................
Paul is talking to those that than can hear what he is saying and understand, not to the ones that would not understand, which not understanding something does not exclude one from salvation. Or from having what is spoken of.
Lack of the understanding and wisdom behind the terms and heart used leads to degrading them to limited definitions. The terms themselves indicate an unlimited potential.
The words in the letters that are being 'discussed' were not written to anyone here. Though that does not mean what was said can't be understood and enjoyed as being to all in the time it takes to meet what Paul said with what is in it's truths as they are realized and seen.
That is the basis for the objection against unconditional election that is anticipated by Paul in Romans 9:19 and dismissed (without any philosophical explanation) in Romans 9:20-21.
For a discussion about the tension between God’s unconditional predestination of only the elect to salvation and God’s desire that all men be saved, see John Piper’s “Are There Two Wills in God? (Divine Election and God’s Desire for All to Be Saved) at http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary...o_Wills_in_God/ . Piper shows that Scripture indicates God wills some things in one way that he does not will in another way.
Note to Sunesis:
In addition to Geer, both John Schoenheit and John Lynn (I don’t know about the other fellow) have promoted a claim that God lacks complete foreknowledge.
Note to all:
I have several commitments that will be increasingly demanding of my thoughts and time, and I probably will not (after this post) be involved in discussions at GSC for a while.
I appreciate the links Cynic. I have but two comments and one question to ask (and then I'll be finished here).
With the exception of Geer I cannot deny that John Lynn promotes the claim that God lacks foreknowledge. I've seen Lynn's work on this. Geer's I have not. But be that as it may they are not the only ones capable of researching the subject. Your links are not news to me.
Now my question. If I've been foreordained -- elected to receive salvation -- would God also foreordain that I would become an atheist?
My second comment. If I have no choice -- meaning that God had determine afore time what my choice would be then I cannot worship such a God. And even that would be foreordained of God. You can't have it one way and not the other.
Now my question. If I've been foreordained -- elected to receive salvation -- would God also foreordain that I would become an atheist?
My second comment. If I have no choice -- meaning that God had determine afore time what my choice would be then I cannot worship such a God. And even that would be foreordained of God. You can't have it one way and not the other.
This is the type of ignorance and/or failure to have the heart to find the truth that is common.
Which was lost in TWI as well as many religious and other groups that say they teach God.
It will be brought out in the light with all, in good time-no exceptions.
Your question will be answered Larry, like it or not, even the 'atheists' will have answers.
Either one's current thinking has to evolve which would include most of it dieing and being reborn.
Scripturally, it appears sovereignty and foreknowledge is intertwined. What is the extent of God's power and knowledge? Unknown – from a human perspective. What may be inferred from prophecies though – is that God knows the end even before the beginning – and is aware of and prepared for all contingencies along the way. Looking at one of the first prophecies in the Bible, the winner of the spiritual war is already announced:
Genesis 3:15 NKJV
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.
A very simple prophecy in Genesis declares the outcome of a battle spanning the entire length of mankind's existence on earth, culminating in the book of Revelation:
Revelation 20:7-15 NKJV
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Thinking of the point Ware made in his book The Diminished God of Open Theism [see my post # 21, concerning 15 years added to Hezekiah's life] the contingencies across this great a span of time [our entire human history] are mind-boggling – and yet a favorable outcome for the woman's seed is predicted in Genesis – fulfilled in one of the Bible's final prophecies, Revelation. If we are to accept the words of Revelation as true – then what does that imply about the extent of God's sovereignty and foreknowledge? For that matter, I think it's rather bold of God to tip His hand and have it all detailed out in Scripture ahead of time.
Why wasn't Jesus killed as a child by Herod? Why didn't He starve to death in the wilderness? Why was an angry mob unsuccessful in taking Him by force? Why was He not drowned in a storm tossed boat at sea? Because it was not His time. God had chosen the time and the means for Christ to die:
Matthew 26:1-25 NKJV
1 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples, 2 "You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified."
3 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, 4 and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him. 5 But they said, "Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people."
6 And when Jesus was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper, 7 a woman came to Him having an alabaster flask of very costly fragrant oil, and she poured it on His head as He sat at the table. 8 But when His disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, "Why this waste? 9 For this fragrant oil might have been sold for much and given to the poor."
10 But when Jesus was aware of it, He said to them, "Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. 11 For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. 12 For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial. 13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her."
14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, "What are you willing to give me if I deliver Him to you?" And they counted out to him thirty pieces of silver. 16 So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him.
17 Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, "Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?"
18 And He said, "Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, "My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples."'"
19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.
20 When evening had come, He sat down with the twelve. 21 Now as they were eating, He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me."
22 And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, "Lord, is it I?"
23 He answered and said, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, "Rabbi, is it I?"
Great post, TB. I'm trying to keep in mind that the integrity of the Word is always at steak. It needs to be rightly-divided. There is a difference between a t-bone and a porterhouse. But the Word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder...
Does God know what I posted this morning?
Is God fair, or unfair?
If God hardens my heart, will I refuse to believe in Him?
What does God think about Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille? John Juedes? Abigail? Dr. James Kennedy? Mother Teresa? George W. Bush? Pawtucket?
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WordWolf
Actually, I've posted some things, and others have posted some things. In some things, we've agreed, and in some we have not. We call that "discussion." Personally, I'd prefer more posting at the
WordWolf
Oh, and for the benefit of those (or one) who don't see the benefit of it, I'm going to ask a slightly self-serving question. Are others of you appreciating my posts on this thread to date? The on
WordWolf
It's come up that if God's perception is limited strictly to the present- as some have suggested- then all He can offer is a general hope that everything turns out all right. (No, it's not been pos
anotherDan
I'm tempted to say, "There is no god but Allah, and Mohommed is his prophet," but I think my meaning might be missed. So I won't.
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Larry N Moore
:) Actually, I get your meaning quite well. I'm not sure someone else will though. ;)
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TheEvan
Laryy, you've fallen prey to a common pitfall: that of misrepresenting the Calvinist view in your argument. I suppose that would make it a straw man.
It's an important point in this discussion, and I'll go ahead and assume the Bible as our common text if that's okay with you. Pursuant to which, you'll find that the use of free will in the Bible has very serious limitations, mainly in freewill offerings. Nevertheless, I think it's possible to view God as sovereign (in a cosmic & biblical sense) and leave man's limited free will intact. I say limited because that's all the Bible seems to grant him.
The idea that one is saved because they have 'made a choice for Christ' and by their own free will believed in him is erroneous. Biblical salvation is not so neatly formulaic. We were indeed chosen and foreordained, or so the Bible says. When the Holy Spirit revealed to us Jesus and our need for him, we believed. We were previously incapable of believeing because the natural man is capable of receiving the things of the Spirit of God...they are foolishness to him.
I see limited foreknowledge as a natural outgrowth of the man-centered, freedom-of-will religion represented by Wierwille. Hey, we are in charge, right? Not God...
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TheInvisibleDan
Many opinions expressed so far are predicated on the assumption that we are concerned with only one deity.
Yet it's estimated by F.C. Baur that about half the population of Christians throughout the Roman empire during the first three centuries held to the belief in two gods – the Creator deity of the Old Testament, and the new “Supreme” deity revealed through Christ in the New Testament.
To touch only a couple examples from Marcion’s Antithesis (as reconstructed from Tertullian’s Adversus Marcionem):
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Larry N Moore
I don't really think so Evan. Of course I may have been relying on questionable sources for acquiring knowledge on what the Calvinist doctrine happens to be.
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TheEvan
Okay, so you don't believe in foreordination...which would obviously go hand in hand with limited knowledge. What, then, do you do with scriptures that proclaim foreordination/predestination? Are they, what, a figure of speech? 'Orientalism'?
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cman
Hi Danny,
I think that when the time was right, this Supreme God became declared by the one chosen to declare. Just as we evolve in maturity, the scriptures describe this very thing that happens within us.
The Lord God breathing life into man and Holy Spirit emptying self into man.
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cman
I think a side question for this thread would be who or what is God.
I think it's a broad inward reality in man as well as that which became the Lord God.
Moving on the face of the waters-the word-ready for those who come up for air.
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Larry N Moore
That's a good question. I'm not sure I can give an equally good answer but, I would start with this passage from 1 Timothy 2, verse four.
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This in itself should cause one pause when considering the Calvinist's doctrine. How can it be said that God's will is for all men to be saved and then possibly reconcile this verse with those which Calvinists believes supports the theology that God has selected/elected certain people to be saved and certain other people to damnation? Well, I believe the only way to reconcile it is by thinking of pre-ordination/predestination in terms of God's will. In other words -- salvation is available to all men because God pre-ordained it long before man ever makes the choice to align him/herself with God's will. In other words -- If it wasn't God's WILL for people to be saved no one could be saved.
Let me put my thinking in terms of a simple analogy.
Long, long ago God decided to throw a dinner party. That was His will. Having made that decision a party of just one isn't much of a party. So He sent out invitations to everyone in the world. Some responded to the invitation and others chose not to. So the party takes place. The only reason why the "guests" are there is because God preordained/predestinated that they should be. He sent them an invitation. No one was preordained/predestinated to go to "hell". That was their choice when they chose not to accept the dinner invitation.
According to the doctrine I cited -- it implies that God sent invitations only to a select few. If that is true then the saying in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. is not true.
I think it's really more a case that those, who put forth such doctrine, must reconcile those difficult verses with the simple ones. I don't see where they have. Do you?
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Dot Matrix
Good catch Sunesis, good post
Sun - you can use the ignore feature
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Larry N Moore
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Dot Matrix
Sun
The ignore feature is in your mailbox to the left, you will still see their avitar but never had to read a poster you find annoying.
Several people have been using it and it makes things much more "unprickly"
Always good to see you Sunesis
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Larry N Moore
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Larry N Moore
Hey Dot! The thought just occurred to me that you learned your lessons well from TWI. Did you help formulate the mindset of "mark and avoid"? :)
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another spot
These posts hurt my heart and make me sad.... :(
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Larry N Moore
I'm sorry another spot. :( Forgive me.
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another spot
Larry....
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Cynic
That is the basis for the objection against unconditional election that is anticipated by Paul in Romans 9:19 and dismissed (without any philosophical explanation) in Romans 9:20-21.
(see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...ion=8;49;47;15; )
The following is excerpted from The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Lorrain Boettner.
Reformed resources:
Boettner’s Reformed Doctrine of Predestination is online at several sites (see http://www.lgmarshall.org/Boettner/boettner_rdp00.html )
A rather comprehensive site for Reformed theological resources is http://www.monergism.com .
I came across http://www.lgmarshall.org/authorindex.html this evening. Its author list and resource links are impressive.
For a discussion about the tension between God’s unconditional predestination of only the elect to salvation and God’s desire that all men be saved, see John Piper’s “Are There Two Wills in God? (Divine Election and God’s Desire for All to Be Saved) at http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary...o_Wills_in_God/ . Piper shows that Scripture indicates God wills some things in one way that he does not will in another way.
Note to Sunesis:
In addition to Geer, both John Schoenheit and John Lynn (I don’t know about the other fellow) have promoted a claim that God lacks complete foreknowledge.
Note to all:
I have several commitments that will be increasingly demanding of my thoughts and time, and I probably will not (after this post) be involved in discussions at GSC for a while.
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Abigail
Well I won't ignore you Larry, and you can ask me all the questions you want. I can't promise I'll have an answer, but you can ask. :)
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cman
Predestined, foreordained and more.................
Paul is talking to those that than can hear what he is saying and understand, not to the ones that would not understand, which not understanding something does not exclude one from salvation. Or from having what is spoken of.
Lack of the understanding and wisdom behind the terms and heart used leads to degrading them to limited definitions. The terms themselves indicate an unlimited potential.
The words in the letters that are being 'discussed' were not written to anyone here. Though that does not mean what was said can't be understood and enjoyed as being to all in the time it takes to meet what Paul said with what is in it's truths as they are realized and seen.
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Larry N Moore
I appreciate the links Cynic. I have but two comments and one question to ask (and then I'll be finished here).
With the exception of Geer I cannot deny that John Lynn promotes the claim that God lacks foreknowledge. I've seen Lynn's work on this. Geer's I have not. But be that as it may they are not the only ones capable of researching the subject. Your links are not news to me.
Now my question. If I've been foreordained -- elected to receive salvation -- would God also foreordain that I would become an atheist?
My second comment. If I have no choice -- meaning that God had determine afore time what my choice would be then I cannot worship such a God. And even that would be foreordained of God. You can't have it one way and not the other.
Enjoy!
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cman
This is the type of ignorance and/or failure to have the heart to find the truth that is common.
Which was lost in TWI as well as many religious and other groups that say they teach God.
It will be brought out in the light with all, in good time-no exceptions.
Your question will be answered Larry, like it or not, even the 'atheists' will have answers.
Either one's current thinking has to evolve which would include most of it dieing and being reborn.
Or after they bury ya.
You don't have a choice, it will happen.
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T-Bone
Scripturally, it appears sovereignty and foreknowledge is intertwined. What is the extent of God's power and knowledge? Unknown – from a human perspective. What may be inferred from prophecies though – is that God knows the end even before the beginning – and is aware of and prepared for all contingencies along the way. Looking at one of the first prophecies in the Bible, the winner of the spiritual war is already announced:
Genesis 3:15 NKJV
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.
A very simple prophecy in Genesis declares the outcome of a battle spanning the entire length of mankind's existence on earth, culminating in the book of Revelation:
Revelation 20:7-15 NKJV
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Thinking of the point Ware made in his book The Diminished God of Open Theism [see my post # 21, concerning 15 years added to Hezekiah's life] the contingencies across this great a span of time [our entire human history] are mind-boggling – and yet a favorable outcome for the woman's seed is predicted in Genesis – fulfilled in one of the Bible's final prophecies, Revelation. If we are to accept the words of Revelation as true – then what does that imply about the extent of God's sovereignty and foreknowledge? For that matter, I think it's rather bold of God to tip His hand and have it all detailed out in Scripture ahead of time.
Why wasn't Jesus killed as a child by Herod? Why didn't He starve to death in the wilderness? Why was an angry mob unsuccessful in taking Him by force? Why was He not drowned in a storm tossed boat at sea? Because it was not His time. God had chosen the time and the means for Christ to die:
Matthew 26:1-25 NKJV
1 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples, 2 "You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified."
3 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, 4 and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him. 5 But they said, "Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people."
6 And when Jesus was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper, 7 a woman came to Him having an alabaster flask of very costly fragrant oil, and she poured it on His head as He sat at the table. 8 But when His disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, "Why this waste? 9 For this fragrant oil might have been sold for much and given to the poor."
10 But when Jesus was aware of it, He said to them, "Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. 11 For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. 12 For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial. 13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her."
14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, "What are you willing to give me if I deliver Him to you?" And they counted out to him thirty pieces of silver. 16 So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him.
17 Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, "Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?"
18 And He said, "Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, "My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples."'"
19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.
20 When evening had come, He sat down with the twelve. 21 Now as they were eating, He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me."
22 And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, "Lord, is it I?"
23 He answered and said, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, "Rabbi, is it I?"
He said to him, "You have said it."
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
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anotherDan
Great post, TB. I'm trying to keep in mind that the integrity of the Word is always at steak. It needs to be rightly-divided. There is a difference between a t-bone and a porterhouse. But the Word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder...
Does God know what I posted this morning?
Is God fair, or unfair?
If God hardens my heart, will I refuse to believe in Him?
What does God think about Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille? John Juedes? Abigail? Dr. James Kennedy? Mother Teresa? George W. Bush? Pawtucket?
Enquiring minds want to know.
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