however, it's a moot point anyway because there is so much error in vpw's teachings (which are based on false premises) that they are a complete waste of time and lead to both doctrinal and practical error....
whitedove,
i'm not referring to vpw's plagiarism, alcoholism, lust for sex, lust for power, lust for money, or moral decay (in your own words)...
i'm referring to the teachings themselves!...
and the teachings are GARBAGE!
how much rat poisoning do you want to eat?
peace,
jen-o
Exactly his teachings which include PFAL ,which includes plagiarized material, which you think is garbage, sounds like you have a problem with some other people and their teachings.
Exactly his teachings which include PFAL ,which includes plagiarized material, which you think is garbage, sounds like you have a problem with some other people and their teachings.
it also appears that some folks have not followed their idol's advice to "read what's written"...
Actually I read exactly what you wrote you said quote
i'm referring to the teachings themselves!...
and the teachings are GARBAGE!
To which my response was
Exactly his teachings which include PFAL ,which includes plagiarized material, which you think is garbage, sounds like you have a problem with some other people and their teachings.
If you think his teachings are garbage then you logically have a problem with the people he got them from. Thats where the (Garbage as you called it came from)
I don't remember speaking of any idols did you assume that or did the aliens tell you?
i.e. not reading what i write, and taking it out of context??
whitedove,
the ~~~~ lines are meant to DIVIDE 2 separate topics
(i tried to make 2 separate posts, but the system just tacked on my 2nd post to the first one)
however, i didn't think i had to S-P-E-L-L everything out for ya...
my statement that you apparently didn't read what's written is REFERENCING the quote of yours that is directly above it...
to wit,
you didn't READ WHAT WAS WRITTEN, whitedove... i said FALSE PROPHET! (there is a difference, ya know)
my sentence about garbage had nothing to do with "reading what is written"...
ya know, the bible says that a person becomes like the idols they worship...
if a person worships an idol of stone, they become like stone (which has no feelings)
and if they worship created idols of stone, wood, etc. that have ears but do not hear and eyes but do not see;
then they become like those idols and CANNOT hear or see......
and if a person worships a man (named vpw) whose logic was flawed and whose understanding was darkened (by his own lusts);
then a person starts to have fuzzy thinking, and CANNOT follow logic...
i'm just saying; if the shoe fits (and i hope it doesn't)
idol worship is a serious thing...
you didn't READ WHAT WAS WRITTEN, whitedove... i said FALSE PROPHET! (there is a difference, ya know)
I read what you wrote just fine, speaking of fuzzy thinking I don't recall VP ever claiming to be a prophet, It's hard to be a false something that you never claimed to be in the first place.
Of course you assume your logic is sound.. a point not established, speaking of following there you go with the idol worship again. I suppose I'll point out again that had you been following along you would notice the absence of any mention that I worshiped VPW in any post I wrote. In fact it seems to be you that is preoccupied with the idol worship thing.......
Is there anyone here who believes that any truth in Wierwille's work is somehow not truth due to any of Wierwille's sins or abuses? If so, please step up and say so clearly.
I don't think such a poster exists. I hear posters asserting that Wierwille's character influenced what he taught, should cause one to not take it at face value and that the teachings were not truth.
Yet various arguments are addressed by the statement that Wierwille's sins don't negate the truth in them. This strawman has been around so long that it's taken on a life of its own.
I read what you wrote just fine, speaking of fuzzy thinking I don't recall VP ever claiming to be a prophet.
whitedove, you don't really think that false prophets go around claiming that they are such...
It's hard to be a false something that you never claimed to be in the first place.
not really, whitedove... i'm talking about the biblical definition of false prophet...
you know just because pfal (or any other vpw teachings) never gave you the official twi position on what a "false prophet" is doesn't mean that you can't read about it for yourself in the bible...
God firstWhat is it to be a False Prophets?05-06-2008God loves us all my dear friends I saw a question that could be asked and answer which is. What is it to be a False Prophets and who can be one?Ok lets look at the word of God.Matthew 7:15 Beware of (false prophets,) which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Strong’s G5578. pseudoprophetes, psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace; from G5571 and G4396; a spurious prophet, i.e. pretended foreteller or religious impostor:--false prophet.This Greek word is used 21 times in 11 verses.Matthew 24:11 And many (false prophets) shall rise, and shall deceive many.Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and (false prophets), and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.Mark 13:22 For false Christs and (false prophets) shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the (false) prophets.G5573. pseudologos, psyoo-dol-og'-os; from G5571 and G3004; mendacious, i.e. promulgating erroneous Chr. doctrine:--speaking lies.Acts 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a (false prophet,) a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:2 Peter 2:1 But there were (false prophets) also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many (false prophets) are gone out into the world.Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the (false prophet.)Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the (false prophet) that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the (false prophet) are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Thank youwith love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Is there anyone here who believes that any truth in Wierwille's work is somehow not truth due to any of Wierwille's sins or abuses? If so, please step up and say so clearly.
I don't think such a poster exists. I hear posters asserting that Wierwille's character influenced what he taught, should cause one to not take it at face value and that the teachings were not truth.
Yet various arguments are addressed by the statement that Wierwille's sins don't negate the truth in them. This strawman has been around so long that it's taken on a life of its own.
This is not a strawman, there are arguments in favor of this view. Here's one:
If one of the sins of the teacher is lying, then what part of the teaching is truth?
The implication being that if a teacher lies somewhere, a teacher can't teach the truth...
The content of plagiarized material isn't true because it has been plagiarized.
You shouldn't drive the Autobahn because Hitler was involved in building it.
...The implication being that if a teacher lies somewhere, a teacher can't teach the truth...
The content of plagiarized material isn't true because it has been plagiarized.
You shouldn't drive the Autobahn because Hitler was involved in building it.
and so forth...
I think you misunderstood the question.
If one of the sins of the teacher is lying, then what part of the teaching is truth?
I didn't say the lying teacher cannot teach the truth. My question is a straightforward challenge to a student of the lying teacher. Students of PFAL were encouraged to absorb all the material – rather than analyze it. I think a student should develop critical thinking skills in any classroom setting. When it comes to studying any of vp's stuff – I believe critical thinking skills are a matter of paramount importance! After I left TWI, it was a lot of fun sorting through the good & bad stuff of PFAL - which also got me into studying systematic theology - which leads to my next point.
Besides having good analytical skills, it wouldn't hurt a student to be well-read also. Exposure to other viewpoints can be a very enlightening process – a student will find there's more than one "Autobahn" out there...A well-read student with good critical thinking skills is more apt to think for themselves – and less likely to succumb to worshiping a lying teacher.
These continued accusations of idolatry by you and others are getting old. Its sort of the same thing when twi taught that the trinity is idolatry ... i.e. anybody with a trinitarian viewpoint was committing idolatry. Much the same here, anyone who believes PFAL is doing so because of idolatry. Worship of the teacher. I think its actually trying to guilt someone out of their beliefs. Accuse them of idolatry.. thats it, make it a guilt trip. They are worshipping other gods!
Please knock off the idolatry accusations. If you truly believe this, then keep this opinion to yourself. This is getting personal and its against the forums rules. I will try not to respond in kind even though I have opinions of you that are uncomplimentary and better kept to myself.
These continued accusations of idolatry by you and others are getting old. Its sort of the same thing when twi taught that the trinity is idolatry ... i.e. anybody with a trinitarian viewpoint was committing idolatry. Much the same here, anyone who believes PFAL is doing so because of idolatry. Worship of the teacher. I think its actually trying to guilt someone out of their beliefs. Accuse them of idolatry.. thats it, make it a guilt trip. They are worshipping other gods!
Please knock off the idolatry accusations. If you truly believe this, then keep this opinion to yourself. This is getting personal and its against the forums rules. I will try not to respond in kind even though I have opinions of you that are uncomplimentary and better kept to myself.
Oh, and the continued and consisted DISTORTING of the posts of other people aren't "personal"?
Here's one example:
"These continued accusations of idolatry by you and others"
Please link to the post where T-Bone just accused you of idolatry.
These continued DISTORTIONS and personal attacks- while claiming your hands are clean- THOSE are getting old.
I dunno oldies, your post accusing TBone is pretty personal, and telling him to knock off his opinion because you disagree, trying to silence his voice because his argument has merit is an attack by you in my opinion. It offends me.
Oh, and the continued and consisted DISTORTING of the posts of other people aren't "personal"?
Here's one example:
"These continued accusations of idolatry by you and others"
Please link to the post where T-Bone just accused you of idolatry.
These continued DISTORTIONS and personal attacks- while claiming your hands are clean- THOSE are getting old.
The implication was clearly there. Jen-o did it with WhiteDove and he picked up on it. Knock off the personal attacks please. If you guys think that we who still believe PFAL are committing idolatry, fine, you're entitled to your opinions. Just keep the personal opinion to yourself... these things don't need to keep on being written on a forum where topics are supposed to be discussed without personal attacks.
Perhaps you don't quite understand what a person attack is, Oldies.
A personal attack is when a person attacks you rather than the position you take or the opinion you express.
Here is an example:
Speaker#1. "What you are saying is false."
Speaker #2. "Are you calling me a liar?"(Changes the subject)
Speaker #1. "I am not calling you anything at all. I am simply stating that your premise is false."
Now, if the person, instead, called you a liar, that would be a personal attack because they are no longer attacking the opinion, they are attacking you as a person.
My post did not accuse you of being an idoloter.
What I said was that your distortion of T-Bone's question is an blatant attempt to exonerate Wierwille.
If I have misunderstood your purpose in making the comparisons you that you made, maybe you could explain why it is you believe they illustrate a valid analogy.
Is there anyone here who believes that any truth in Wierwille's work is somehow not truth due to any of Wierwille's sins or abuses? If so, please step up and say so clearly.
I don't think such a poster exists. I hear posters asserting that Wierwille's character influenced what he taught, should cause one to not take it at face value and that the teachings were not truth.
Yet various arguments are addressed by the statement that Wierwille's sins don't negate the truth in them. This strawman has been around so long that it's taken on a life of its own.
Still waiting for this assertion to be made, other than some posters claiming it has been made.
Every poster who has been accused of saying that Wierwille's sins invalidate any truth in his teachings has explained the misunderstanding.
Come on! If you're out there and believe that any truth that is in Wierwille's teachings is no longer truth because of Wierwille's sins, step up to the microphone and say so!
I may have come CLOSE to saying something like this.
For my own personal life, I feel vic's sin and recklessness invalidates everything I learned from him in pfal, all the seminars and stuff..
why?
If it is sooooo wonderful, how come didn't it have a lick of effectiveness in the moral fabric of the guy who supposedly came up with it? "Conversion" or "new birth" in his own words is supposed to be a life CHANGING experience.. other men have come from corruption, lives of crime.. and claimed "change", and.. LIVED UP TO IT. but vic, was he "illuminated"? I don't think so.. I think he merely found enough light to try to SELL.
I honestly don't think he even believed that there really is a God to begin with..
I think his "voice from heaven" and snowy gas pumps story was merely a falsehood and part of the scam.. otherwise, if he REALLY had an experience with the Almighty, he wouldn't lay his filthy hand on one single sister in christ.. not one.
I wouldn't believe the claim that the sun is guaranteed to rise every morning based on his word.. I'd have to hear it or experience it somewhere else.
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WhiteDove
Exactly his teachings which include PFAL ,which includes plagiarized material, which you think is garbage, sounds like you have a problem with some other people and their teachings.
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T-Bone
If one of the sins of the teacher is lying, then what part of the teaching is truth?
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jen-o
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
andit also appears that some folks have not followed their idol's advice to "read what's written"...
Edited by jen-oLink to comment
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year2027
God first
Beloved oldiesman, Ron G, WhiteDove, and T-Bone and jen-o
God loves you my dear friend
oldiesman - he called hiself a Teacher and had other people thinking otherwise
Ron G - I love you take and glad you enjoyed my "original concept"
WhiteDove - hi again
T-Bone - I love seeing your wisdom
jen-o - hi again
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your ways Roy
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WhiteDove
Actually I read exactly what you wrote you said quote
To which my response was
Exactly his teachings which include PFAL ,which includes plagiarized material, which you think is garbage, sounds like you have a problem with some other people and their teachings.
If you think his teachings are garbage then you logically have a problem with the people he got them from. Thats where the (Garbage as you called it came from)
I don't remember speaking of any idols did you assume that or did the aliens tell you?
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jen-o
wow, whitedove... are you doing this on purpose??
i.e. not reading what i write, and taking it out of context??
whitedove,
the ~~~~ lines are meant to DIVIDE 2 separate topics
(i tried to make 2 separate posts, but the system just tacked on my 2nd post to the first one)
however, i didn't think i had to S-P-E-L-L everything out for ya...
my statement that you apparently didn't read what's written is REFERENCING the quote of yours that is directly above it...
to wit,
you didn't READ WHAT WAS WRITTEN, whitedove... i said FALSE PROPHET! (there is a difference, ya know)
my sentence about garbage had nothing to do with "reading what is written"...
ya know, the bible says that a person becomes like the idols they worship...
if a person worships an idol of stone, they become like stone (which has no feelings)
and if they worship created idols of stone, wood, etc. that have ears but do not hear and eyes but do not see;
then they become like those idols and CANNOT hear or see......
and if a person worships a man (named vpw) whose logic was flawed and whose understanding was darkened (by his own lusts);
then a person starts to have fuzzy thinking, and CANNOT follow logic...
i'm just saying; if the shoe fits (and i hope it doesn't)
idol worship is a serious thing...
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WhiteDove
I read what you wrote just fine, speaking of fuzzy thinking I don't recall VP ever claiming to be a prophet, It's hard to be a false something that you never claimed to be in the first place.
Of course you assume your logic is sound.. a point not established, speaking of following there you go with the idol worship again. I suppose I'll point out again that had you been following along you would notice the absence of any mention that I worshiped VPW in any post I wrote. In fact it seems to be you that is preoccupied with the idol worship thing.......
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Oakspear
Is there anyone here who believes that any truth in Wierwille's work is somehow not truth due to any of Wierwille's sins or abuses? If so, please step up and say so clearly.
I don't think such a poster exists. I hear posters asserting that Wierwille's character influenced what he taught, should cause one to not take it at face value and that the teachings were not truth.
Yet various arguments are addressed by the statement that Wierwille's sins don't negate the truth in them. This strawman has been around so long that it's taken on a life of its own.
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Oakspear
Someone can't be what they don't explicitly claim to be? Why not?
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jen-o
not really, whitedove... i'm talking about the biblical definition of false prophet...
you know just because pfal (or any other vpw teachings) never gave you the official twi position on what a "false prophet" is doesn't mean that you can't read about it for yourself in the bible...
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WhiteDove
whitedove, you don't really think that false prophets go around claiming that they are such...
Of course not , I think they would claim to be a prophet something I don't recall that VP ever did.
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waysider
Hitler never declared himself a monster.
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year2027
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year2027
God first
Beloved WhiteDove, Oakspear, jen-o, and waysider
God loves you my dear friend
Thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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oldiesman
This is not a strawman, there are arguments in favor of this view. Here's one:
The implication being that if a teacher lies somewhere, a teacher can't teach the truth...
The content of plagiarized material isn't true because it has been plagiarized.
You shouldn't drive the Autobahn because Hitler was involved in building it.
and so forth...
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waysider
T-Bone asked:
"If one of the sins of the teacher is lying, then what part of the teaching is truth?"
To which Oldies responded:
"The implication being that if a teacher lies somewhere, a teacher can't teach the truth...
The content of plagiarized material isn't true because it has been plagiarized.
You shouldn't drive the Autobahn because Hitler was involved in building it.
and so forth..."
----------------------------------------------------------------
That's a complete distortion of T-Bone's question.
It's simply a blatant attempt to exonerate Wierwille.
And yes, it is a strawman. It's diverting the question at hand away from center stage and replacing it with a stand-in.
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T-Bone
I think you misunderstood the question.
I didn't say the lying teacher cannot teach the truth. My question is a straightforward challenge to a student of the lying teacher. Students of PFAL were encouraged to absorb all the material – rather than analyze it. I think a student should develop critical thinking skills in any classroom setting. When it comes to studying any of vp's stuff – I believe critical thinking skills are a matter of paramount importance! After I left TWI, it was a lot of fun sorting through the good & bad stuff of PFAL - which also got me into studying systematic theology - which leads to my next point.
Besides having good analytical skills, it wouldn't hurt a student to be well-read also. Exposure to other viewpoints can be a very enlightening process – a student will find there's more than one "Autobahn" out there...A well-read student with good critical thinking skills is more apt to think for themselves – and less likely to succumb to worshiping a lying teacher.
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oldiesman
T-Bone,
These continued accusations of idolatry by you and others are getting old. Its sort of the same thing when twi taught that the trinity is idolatry ... i.e. anybody with a trinitarian viewpoint was committing idolatry. Much the same here, anyone who believes PFAL is doing so because of idolatry. Worship of the teacher. I think its actually trying to guilt someone out of their beliefs. Accuse them of idolatry.. thats it, make it a guilt trip. They are worshipping other gods!
Please knock off the idolatry accusations. If you truly believe this, then keep this opinion to yourself. This is getting personal and its against the forums rules. I will try not to respond in kind even though I have opinions of you that are uncomplimentary and better kept to myself.
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WordWolf
Oh, and the continued and consisted DISTORTING of the posts of other people aren't "personal"?
Here's one example:
"These continued accusations of idolatry by you and others"
Please link to the post where T-Bone just accused you of idolatry.
These continued DISTORTIONS and personal attacks- while claiming your hands are clean- THOSE are getting old.
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rascal
I dunno oldies, your post accusing TBone is pretty personal, and telling him to knock off his opinion because you disagree, trying to silence his voice because his argument has merit is an attack by you in my opinion. It offends me.
Probably ought to report yourself :)
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oldiesman
The implication was clearly there. Jen-o did it with WhiteDove and he picked up on it. Knock off the personal attacks please. If you guys think that we who still believe PFAL are committing idolatry, fine, you're entitled to your opinions. Just keep the personal opinion to yourself... these things don't need to keep on being written on a forum where topics are supposed to be discussed without personal attacks.
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waysider
Perhaps you don't quite understand what a person attack is, Oldies.
A personal attack is when a person attacks you rather than the position you take or the opinion you express.
Here is an example:
Speaker#1. "What you are saying is false."
Speaker #2. "Are you calling me a liar?"(Changes the subject)
Speaker #1. "I am not calling you anything at all. I am simply stating that your premise is false."
Now, if the person, instead, called you a liar, that would be a personal attack because they are no longer attacking the opinion, they are attacking you as a person.
My post did not accuse you of being an idoloter.
What I said was that your distortion of T-Bone's question is an blatant attempt to exonerate Wierwille.
If I have misunderstood your purpose in making the comparisons you that you made, maybe you could explain why it is you believe they illustrate a valid analogy.
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Oakspear
Every poster who has been accused of saying that Wierwille's sins invalidate any truth in his teachings has explained the misunderstanding.
Come on! If you're out there and believe that any truth that is in Wierwille's teachings is no longer truth because of Wierwille's sins, step up to the microphone and say so!
Edited by OakspearLink to comment
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Ham
I may have come CLOSE to saying something like this.
For my own personal life, I feel vic's sin and recklessness invalidates everything I learned from him in pfal, all the seminars and stuff..
why?
If it is sooooo wonderful, how come didn't it have a lick of effectiveness in the moral fabric of the guy who supposedly came up with it? "Conversion" or "new birth" in his own words is supposed to be a life CHANGING experience.. other men have come from corruption, lives of crime.. and claimed "change", and.. LIVED UP TO IT. but vic, was he "illuminated"? I don't think so.. I think he merely found enough light to try to SELL.
I honestly don't think he even believed that there really is a God to begin with..
I think his "voice from heaven" and snowy gas pumps story was merely a falsehood and part of the scam.. otherwise, if he REALLY had an experience with the Almighty, he wouldn't lay his filthy hand on one single sister in christ.. not one.
I wouldn't believe the claim that the sun is guaranteed to rise every morning based on his word.. I'd have to hear it or experience it somewhere else.
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