Oh yeah.. and the "counselling" advice given to some people..
"take your kid out in the wilderness, where no one can hear his/her screams as you beat the *^#@ out of them.."
No, "they" won't give you an autographed copy of their book of "sound advice" either.
I agreed with Ham...
Of course,
if it's not in writing, nobody was ever told it, no matter how many GSC'ers insist they were told EXACTLY THAT
by corps, LC and so on.
Nobody was "ugly" with you. Mild sarcasm, at best, is what I said, which is what you quoted.
It RESPONDED to what you ALREADY posted, and had nothing to do with your imaginary
"baiting". Someone gave personal testimony. You said "liar." We contested your response.
That's not "baiting."
The claim, however, looks like someone ELSE was given bad doctrine from twi, suffered by trying to carry
it out, and YOU'RE claiming to be the suffering one because you heard later that some people were taught
some stuff you didn't like or agree with.
How about a drop of sympathy for the ones who actually had to try to LIVE it?
Rascal I have been to my share of couples advances as well ,so did my wife attend womens advances,marrying into the Corps I went through the grill as well. I never once heard such a doctrine propounded. I don't dismiss this as a isolated instance, I do notice in all of the people I know from all over the country the only place this seems to be the opinion - is here. Interesting other women do not share that opinion I find that telling coming from people that only want to post dailly of some complaint about The Way.
This may come as a shock, but the people who are SPEAKING UP about twi are here.
Those who wish to remain silent, or refuse to remember, or insist it was all sweetness and light,
DON'T come here.
And "here", we have people from all over the country (and countries), and across twi's decades,
including recent evacuees. Different people, who were in different places at different times,
have come forth and said it was taught to them.
The logical approach is to admit they probably WERE taught that-even if you weren't.
Nero replied again:
You do realize that different regions did have different things they said to different people? I find other people's accounts are often not like mine - but I don't doubt they were told such things.
There were a bunch of people coming in from different walks of life and different religions... so they brought their crap with them.
Some of us got the "if your husband beats you - it's your fault" lecture. I didn't get this one.
Some of us got the "you have to be submissive lecture - but your husband should be nice" lecture. I got this one.
And your wife and friends probably got the "good/decent" lecture were they weren't told your husband is the god in your life.
For example:
I was told by some people that abortion was okay - here are some scriptures.
I was told by another fellowship coordinator that abortion was bad.
Just depends on the person... and the person teaching.
As did Watered Garden.
I was taught by a woman who was a graduate of the WC and a BC who was a graduate of the WC that if ANYTHING untoward happened to my husband, my son, or myself, it was because I was not submitting myself sufficiently to my husband. This included dismissal from the FWC due to our son being a rebellious child, husband having a hard time finding work, and my being diagnosed as an insulin dependent diabetic. All of this, without exception, was my fault because I was not sufficiently meek, humble, submissive and obedient. I'm sure some of you will strongly agree with this scenario; however, guess who strongly DISAGREED? MY HUSBAND, THAT'S WHO!!! He thought it was the stupidest thing he'd ever heard. I was and have been and still am doing my best to be the wife Prov. 31:10-31 describes. (That description, incidentally, was twisted by TWI into unrecognizable legalism.) I mean, WHY is the wife doing these things? Because she loves God, loves her husband, loves her kids, loves her home. If it's not out of love and respect it's not worth it. And it is a given that the husband is a wonderful man. One "good clocking" and the deal's off.
And I will tell you something else. I never got to know the BC very well, but the 6th WC grad ran her household and her husband's life with a sweet, submissive smile and an iron fist. This guy actually told me privately some things that indicated he wasn't very happy.
None of the posters who are in favor of a man beating the crap out of a woman have shown me book, chapter, and verse. I think any man who would do so is seriously lacking in coping skills, self-esteem, and the milk of human kindness.
A while back something was bothering me and I was upset and very talkative and persistent about it; some might even call it nagging. My husband was not happy about this after a few days/weeks of my distress, and heartily wished I would stop talking about it. I did, of my own free will, so he would be at peace. Looking back, I realize this was the kind of situation JohnIam describes, in which he would believe I needed and deserved a good clocking, maybe a couple black eyes, a broken nose, and some smashed teeth?
But my husband didn't do that. He just patiently waiting for me to get ahold of myself. Wonder why? Could it be because he loves God, he loves me, and he loves himself?
Oh, PS: The timeline for the submissive stuff I was taught was 1993-96. It was a big whoopty-do at the time and even earlier, when LCM was blaming wives for taking their husbands out of the ministry.
WG
As did rascal.
Dove,
Couples advances were very different than the womens advances. I have attended both. Corpes women and wives were different even more so...I don`t believe you were corpes or a womn, so for you to atte,pt to speak authoritatively about either is silly.
You say that only here at grease spot have you read of people portraying a different image of the twi than you personally viewed.
Could it be that God is introducing you to a whole different set of people with different experiences than you have had prior contact with? Could it be he is working in people to present a different side of the story? A different pov that gives a more complete picture of what happened in twi and why?
Could it be an opportunity to be moved by compassion for those who suffered...rather than further recriminations and nastiness?
Dove, I am as real as any other person that you have talked to. No we have not met in the flesh...but we have spoken on the phone. We know and love the same people. They would be more than willing to vouch for my veracity , IF< IF< IF, if you REALLY cared.
The thing is...you don`t WANT what I say to be true...it is too damaging to your beliefs. You have to then some how invalidate what I say in order to live with your perceptions...in order to hold to your current belief....I have to be invalidated...I am a liar or I exaggerate or it never happened.
Do you know that God probably cares JUST as much for me as he does those that you talk to in the flesh? That he works in my life?
How do you think it makes folks feel when you call us liars? When you insist that our accounts never happened?
It sucks Dove, yet somehow you seem to think because I am typing words with my fingers instead of speaking them out of my mouth in a face to face situation....that it is ok to be mean....to lead the gang banging.
Your words whether typed or spoken hurt, yet by the doctrine that you hold as truth....these actions are ok and justifiable.
Love God and love your neighbor friend, if what you do is not lining up with that then it is time to examine ourselves as Christians :(
Your continuing to dismiss accounts of different people from different places and different times as all being part of some singular
imaginary "Greasespot region" was responded to by Tom, and I think he has the right of it.
ummm... could that be because this is the most prominent ex-way site? ...could that be because others are still bound by fear of reprisal should they speak up?
It's 'of no profit' to waste time with you and the other veepee worshipers!
ummm... could that be because this is the most prominent ex-way site? ...could that be because others are still bound by fear of reprisal should they speak up?
It's 'of no profit' to waste time with you and the other veepee worshipers!
Why what are they going to do take away your bookstore privilages? Christians bound by Fear?
Yea Of course were veepee worshipers because we stand for fair and balanced facts not someone told me that they told them that theie twentyfith removed relative may have said so and so. They think... Tom all that ice is freezing your brain
Why what are they going to do take away your bookstore privilages? Christians bound by Fear?
Yea Of course were veepee worshipers because we stand for fair and balanced facts not someone told me that they told them that theie twentyfith removed relative may have said so and so. They think... Tom all that ice is freezing your brain
Facts are facts opinion is opinion
I was speaking from my own personal experience - not from a relative's point of view. Although I definitely could tell you what they told me - I think it's best to leave it to them to speak for themselves. I think there were quite a few others on this thread with first hand accounts as well. Potato, rascal etc etc...
Facts are facts. The fact is - I was taught that. So it's true I was taught that. It's not an opinion.
Opinion is opinion. I hate the way - that's an opinion.
Couples advances were very different than the women's advances. I have attended both. Corpes women and wives were different even more so...I don`t believe you were corpes or a womn, so for you to atte,pt to speak authoritatively about either is silly.
Rascal I'm not going to debate advances with you I have been to all but not every advance but I have attended a women's advance, I've talked with those that have been there as well, I have notes from a few. No One I have found has the same story as you. You seem to want focus on that fact that I entered the Corps program from the back door so to speak. You have mentioned it a few times, A fact I have never hid, but I have a lot more interaction than you will ever know. I suppose this is just left over intimidation factor from the way days. It's not working..... Corps spouses were as much a part of the program as everyone else we faced the same accountability without the benefit of some of the in house experience I might add. I know we were looked down on as not good enough I guess you still feel the same. Apparently though some of us lesser's got the program better than the ones who made it through the in house version. I had a long talk with John T before entering into this option, I was well aware of the attitudes long before after much discussion he gave me some good advice He said all of us are where we are by the grace of God he sees us no differently. If others do thats their problem. He also added if someone needed an attitude adjustment on the subject that I could send them to him. Do you ?
You say that only here at grease spot have you read of people portraying a different image of the twi than you personally viewed.
Could it be that God is introducing you to a whole different set of people with different experiences than you have had prior contact with? Could it be he is working in people to present a different side of the story? A different pov that gives a more complete picture of what happened in twi and why?
Could it be an opportunity to be moved by compassion for those who suffered...rather than further recriminations and nastiness?
Dove, I am as real as any other person that you have talked to. No we have not met in the flesh...but we have spoken on the phone. We know and love the same people. They would be more than willing to vouch for my veracity , IF< IF< IF, if you REALLY cared.
The thing is...you don`t WANT what I say to be true...it is too damaging to your beliefs. You have to then some how invalidate what I say in order to live with your perceptions...in order to hold to your current belief....I have to be invalidated...I am a liar or I exaggerate or it never happened.
Do you know that God probably cares JUST as much for me as he does those that you talk to in the flesh? That he works in my life?
How do you think it makes folks feel when you call us liars? When you insist that our accounts never happened?
It sucks Dove, yet somehow you seem to think because I am typing words with my fingers instead of speaking them out of my mouth in a face to face situation....that it is ok to be mean....to lead the gang banging.
Your words whether typed or spoken hurt, yet by the doctrine that you hold as truth....these actions are ok and justifiable.
Love God and love your neighbor friend, if what you do is not lining up with that then it is time to examine ourselves as Christians :(
I find it interesting that people with axes to grind daily here also are the only ones who mysteriously heard these undocumented doctrines. It has zero, not a thing to do with my perception or what I want to think just an obvious fact to consider, which by the way you still fail to understand my perception as evident by your remarks. I just would like to see some documentation ,verification by someone other than the person complaining. It's easy to claim anything if you don't have to produce any accountability. You may be a nice person I think so, having talked with you. That does not mean either of us always speaks the truth, which by the way does not make you a liar either ,Different thing. Loving God does not require sucking down everything everyone is laying down.
Several posters said this is what they were told PERSONALLY.
That is a fact.
WD claims they are lying.
That is an opinion.
This is not difficult for most people to track.
Nice try WW too bad the definition of fact gets in the way of your opinion. Apperantly some feel the need for proof and/or verification besides me for it to be a fact, then again that is what a fact isin real life.
Fact
1.a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred; "first you must collect all the facts of the case"
2. a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened; "he supported his argument with an impressive array of facts"
3. an event known to have happened or something known to have existed; "your fears have no basis in fact"; "how much of the story is fact and how much fiction is hard to tell"
4. a concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"
Like I said - do you want my notes if I still have them? Or do you want me to ask someone to put it in writing? I just want to know what will satisfy you.
Do you think everyone who comes here everyday that has something bad to say about TWI is lying? Just a wondering.
I've heard a few reliable reports from unimpeachable sources. The amount of pain that I see is undeniable, and it's never right to attack an accuser. That's something the guilty are better at doing than the innocent.
Oh, WD, want to change the subject and draw some heat off of John? Ok, I'll bite.
Don't pretend to be an injured party, it's a poor fit.
Naw just pointing out that Rascal seemed to ignore your ugly remark and called me on mine I took the bait willingly your a big boy you can take it I'm sure.
Here's a quick recap to what happened:
rascal said
YOU used the OLD posting style-from all the way back to waydale, even, to say
Which was used, as of old, to take someone's personal testimony, and, instead of saying
"I wasn't in the room when it was taught," you said "I wasn't taught this-therefore it wasn't taught and you're a liar".
OLD posting style. Don't pretend it's not what you were saying.
I replied to YOUR post with
I asked for documentation with which it is not a fact, but opinion, or hearsay and received none to this point.
Like I said - do you want my notes if I still have them? Or do you want me to ask someone to put it in writing? I just want to know what will satisfy you.
Do you think everyone who comes here everyday that has something bad to say about TWI is lying? Just a wondering.
Nope only the ones that obviously continue to do so day after day. what you posted I never disputed that is not the same as what Rascal posted submitting is in the Bible abuse is not simple as that.
You know, I post stuff here to try to help people as well as myself explain and understand the TWI experience we all share to one degree or another. To suggest I "have an ax to grind" is even more insulting than taking a comment I made out of context and using it to shore up a comment I certainly as NOT in agreement with.
I was associated with TWI from 1974-1996. During that time, I saw small-minded, legalistic busybodies try to run my world and I saw kind-hearted, God-loving people set an example of a Christian walk, and everything in between.
By NO MEANS did I intend to suggest that the legalism in marriage teachings only happened between 1993-96. In 1977 I heard Rev. N**cy D**can teach at a women's advance on a verse in Hebrews that Sara called Abraham "adonai" and that that is a name for God. Sara spoke to Abraham (her own personal god) and Abraham spoke to God for her. Anybody remember that besides me? I think it was also mentioned in the CF&S class.
Let's don't get on a tangent but I'm not sure that's correct. I'm not real good at using concordances but I found the verse in the Young's and it was a different word,.....I think.
The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps.
Right unless someone has some sort of provable information it can not be passed off as fact, by definition Sorry if the meaning of the word gets in the way of someone's agenda. But that's the way it is. It's speculation until proven and should be referred to as such until such time as there is adequate proof of fact.
Nero the things you posted and the ones below are not the same there is a big difference between a biblical concept and teaching abuse. Being submissive is not equal to abuse. I'm submissive to my boss but not abuse. In fact it can be a great relationship where ideas are sought and exchanged. sometimes the submitter has the better idea, none the less the boss has the final say.
I thought I replied to this - but didn't. I do know the difference between the two (I know you weren't implying that I didn't)- they never told us submitting = physical abuse in my camp either.
And - just so I know - what would be your solution to there being no "documentation" for people's personal experiences? Should the forum shrivel up and die because everything we've experienced needs to be submitted in triplicate? Should I have to prove everything that has happened to me? I stubbed my toe this morning - I'll need to submit that in writing to paw before I can post on the forum. It has to be documented before it become a fact... otherwise stubbing my toe is just an opinion? Here is a link to the document. Where do we draw the line?
If I was actually taught something good while I was in TWI - what if it wasn't in one of the classes? Do I have the right to share it? Will I need to document that as well?
Or is it just a pet peeve of yours that everyone talks about a bunch of stuff they have no documentation for? Is this just a vent? Or do you want everyone who doesn't share a similar view to be quiet? Not an accusation - but a question.
Right unless someone has some sort of provable information it can not be passed off as fact, by definition Sorry if the meaning of the word gets in the way of someone's agenda. But that's the way it is. It's speculation until proven and should be referred to as such until such time as there is adequate proof of fact.
So would my notes do for you? Or do you need something from TWI? If I can't find them I'm sure they wouldn't mind me sitting in on another marriage class. Although I feel it would be another few hours wasted from my life.
Or do you just want the "It's okay to slap the ladies around" notes? Those I know I won't be able to get.
This is how it works for me. Personally I'm sure there were and are big problems with TWI.
I refuse to not take a hurting person seriously or at face value just because they can't document the events that hurt them. I'm certain that often TWI just covered their you know whats instead of doing the right thing and confessed their sins.
So I am compelled to do the decent thing and take care of the one who's hurting, even if I can't document the source of their pain.
Just for the record, I consider covering the sin up to be the cowards way.
I've heard a few reliable reports from unimpeachable sources. The amount of pain that I see is undeniable, and it's never right to attack an accuser. That's something the guilty are better at doing than the innocent.
Can I meet Mr. or Mrs. "Unimpeachable"? And who are the "guilty vs. "innocent"? Is anyone 'INNOCENT??
Lordy, Lordy, fur sure a lot of unmanaged repetitive accusations flying around, but nothing resolved as I see it?
What are you going to do what's left of your future...besides bitch about the past and who's guilty?
Write a Hollywood soap before the rest of the world falls asleep.
WHAT ax do I have to grind Dove?? What??? You say that...but I have no ax, no agenda....I talk about what happened to me...try to figure out why...how...where was God....how do I stop it from happening to me ever again, how do I teach my children not to be vulnerable...
It seems to offend you deeply that I reiterate my personal experiences in twi. You use that as an excuse to be mean, sarcastic, call me a liar...How many times have led witch hunts where you and your bud`s called me a liar, mentally unstable, a whining perpetual victim....one time you cheered as a psycho poster proclaimed that I was a threat to my children and family....
You have treated me horribly because my treatment does not line up with what you want to believe.
Dove...you read sarcasm where there is none...you read lies where there are none...you use these excuses to treat live flesh and blood breathing souls who love God as much as you do ...who have seen his incredible grace and love abound in their lives...and yet contrary to hhis message to us...you treat us like lying scum.
Dove...what you do hurts. Yet it is your teaching and beliefs aquired in twi that allows you to continue to do this with enthusiasm...and lead others also.
Again, we are flesh and blood people here, loved just as yourself. I relate my experiences because they are mine...for you to call into question my veracity, or to attribute motives such as axe to grind or mental instability or liar or whatever other flavor you come up with this week hurts.
Examine your heart Dove, I hear that you really are a nice guy....see if you think that what you do lines up with our instructions as Christians...if what you do here is how we are supposed to treat one another.
Look at what you do in the name of your religion....and ask yourself if that lines up with our instructions to love God and love our neighbor?
My personal experiences ... are not my opinions. They are a fact for me. They happened, that moves them out of the realm of personal opinion, and inot the catagory of factual occurance.
For you Dove, to place them in the catagory of *opinion* means that they didn`t happen.
My personal integrity is important, my moral character is important. Your accusations of a lack of truthfullness, or that I have an agenda, or that I have an axe to grind is offensive to me personally.
Do you understand Dove? Do you see what your religion permits you to do? You are able to make excuses for why it is ok to slander someones character and reputation, to further the hurt inflicted by the cruel treatment endured in twi....simply to shut them up because their experiences and their view point aquired makes it uncomfortable for you to maintian your perception of twi :(
I repeat ...Dove, what you do hurts...Do you think that this lines up with God`s instruction to love?
I am ok, this had gone on for a very long time. I do not write well enough for the compassion that I feel to be communicated. I guess that I come across harsh and judgemental...not as I intend at all.
I don`t think that it is me personally that Dove dislikes, but my experiences and the pov gained from them. They present a side of twi and the damaging aspects of some of it`s doctrines that is uncomfortable to contemplate.
Even if you and I were never to see eye to eye doctrinally or in our individual perspectives....I could never doubt the love of God that seems to live and abide in your heart Jeff. I respect that, and because of that can *hear* what you have to say.
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WordWolf
Mr Hammeroni did as well.
I agreed with Ham...
Nobody was "ugly" with you. Mild sarcasm, at best, is what I said, which is what you quoted.
It RESPONDED to what you ALREADY posted, and had nothing to do with your imaginary
"baiting". Someone gave personal testimony. You said "liar." We contested your response.
That's not "baiting."
The claim, however, looks like someone ELSE was given bad doctrine from twi, suffered by trying to carry
it out, and YOU'RE claiming to be the suffering one because you heard later that some people were taught
some stuff you didn't like or agree with.
How about a drop of sympathy for the ones who actually had to try to LIVE it?
This may come as a shock, but the people who are SPEAKING UP about twi are here.
Those who wish to remain silent, or refuse to remember, or insist it was all sweetness and light,
DON'T come here.
And "here", we have people from all over the country (and countries), and across twi's decades,
including recent evacuees. Different people, who were in different places at different times,
have come forth and said it was taught to them.
The logical approach is to admit they probably WERE taught that-even if you weren't.
Nero replied again:
As did Watered Garden.
As did rascal.
Your continuing to dismiss accounts of different people from different places and different times as all being part of some singular
imaginary "Greasespot region" was responded to by Tom, and I think he has the right of it.
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WhiteDove
Why what are they going to do take away your bookstore privilages? Christians bound by Fear?
Yea Of course were veepee worshipers because we stand for fair and balanced facts not someone told me that they told them that theie twentyfith removed relative may have said so and so. They think... Tom all that ice is freezing your brain
Facts are facts opinion is opinion
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Nero
I was speaking from my own personal experience - not from a relative's point of view. Although I definitely could tell you what they told me - I think it's best to leave it to them to speak for themselves. I think there were quite a few others on this thread with first hand accounts as well. Potato, rascal etc etc...
Facts are facts. The fact is - I was taught that. So it's true I was taught that. It's not an opinion.
Opinion is opinion. I hate the way - that's an opinion.
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WordWolf
How true!
Several posters said this is what they were told PERSONALLY.
That is a fact.
WD claims they are lying.
That is an opinion.
This is not difficult for most people to track.
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WhiteDove
Dove,
Couples advances were very different than the women's advances. I have attended both. Corpes women and wives were different even more so...I don`t believe you were corpes or a womn, so for you to atte,pt to speak authoritatively about either is silly.
Rascal I'm not going to debate advances with you I have been to all but not every advance but I have attended a women's advance, I've talked with those that have been there as well, I have notes from a few. No One I have found has the same story as you. You seem to want focus on that fact that I entered the Corps program from the back door so to speak. You have mentioned it a few times, A fact I have never hid, but I have a lot more interaction than you will ever know. I suppose this is just left over intimidation factor from the way days. It's not working..... Corps spouses were as much a part of the program as everyone else we faced the same accountability without the benefit of some of the in house experience I might add. I know we were looked down on as not good enough I guess you still feel the same. Apparently though some of us lesser's got the program better than the ones who made it through the in house version. I had a long talk with John T before entering into this option, I was well aware of the attitudes long before after much discussion he gave me some good advice He said all of us are where we are by the grace of God he sees us no differently. If others do thats their problem. He also added if someone needed an attitude adjustment on the subject that I could send them to him. Do you ?
You say that only here at grease spot have you read of people portraying a different image of the twi than you personally viewed.
Could it be that God is introducing you to a whole different set of people with different experiences than you have had prior contact with? Could it be he is working in people to present a different side of the story? A different pov that gives a more complete picture of what happened in twi and why?
Could it be an opportunity to be moved by compassion for those who suffered...rather than further recriminations and nastiness?
Dove, I am as real as any other person that you have talked to. No we have not met in the flesh...but we have spoken on the phone. We know and love the same people. They would be more than willing to vouch for my veracity , IF< IF< IF, if you REALLY cared.
The thing is...you don`t WANT what I say to be true...it is too damaging to your beliefs. You have to then some how invalidate what I say in order to live with your perceptions...in order to hold to your current belief....I have to be invalidated...I am a liar or I exaggerate or it never happened.
Do you know that God probably cares JUST as much for me as he does those that you talk to in the flesh? That he works in my life?
How do you think it makes folks feel when you call us liars? When you insist that our accounts never happened?
It sucks Dove, yet somehow you seem to think because I am typing words with my fingers instead of speaking them out of my mouth in a face to face situation....that it is ok to be mean....to lead the gang banging.
Your words whether typed or spoken hurt, yet by the doctrine that you hold as truth....these actions are ok and justifiable.
Love God and love your neighbor friend, if what you do is not lining up with that then it is time to examine ourselves as Christians :(
I find it interesting that people with axes to grind daily here also are the only ones who mysteriously heard these undocumented doctrines. It has zero, not a thing to do with my perception or what I want to think just an obvious fact to consider, which by the way you still fail to understand my perception as evident by your remarks. I just would like to see some documentation ,verification by someone other than the person complaining. It's easy to claim anything if you don't have to produce any accountability. You may be a nice person I think so, having talked with you. That does not mean either of us always speaks the truth, which by the way does not make you a liar either ,Different thing. Loving God does not require sucking down everything everyone is laying down.
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WhiteDove
Nice try WW too bad the definition of fact gets in the way of your opinion. Apperantly some feel the need for proof and/or verification besides me for it to be a fact, then again that is what a fact isin real life.
Fact
1.a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred; "first you must collect all the facts of the case"
2. a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened; "he supported his argument with an impressive array of facts"
3. an event known to have happened or something known to have existed; "your fears have no basis in fact"; "how much of the story is fact and how much fiction is hard to tell"
4. a concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"
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Nero
Like I said - do you want my notes if I still have them? Or do you want me to ask someone to put it in writing? I just want to know what will satisfy you.
Do you think everyone who comes here everyday that has something bad to say about TWI is lying? Just a wondering.
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JeffSjo
I've heard a few reliable reports from unimpeachable sources. The amount of pain that I see is undeniable, and it's never right to attack an accuser. That's something the guilty are better at doing than the innocent.
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WhiteDove
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Nero
*points to her last post for WD*
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WhiteDove
Nope only the ones that obviously continue to do so day after day. what you posted I never disputed that is not the same as what Rascal posted submitting is in the Bible abuse is not simple as that.
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Watered Garden
You know, I post stuff here to try to help people as well as myself explain and understand the TWI experience we all share to one degree or another. To suggest I "have an ax to grind" is even more insulting than taking a comment I made out of context and using it to shore up a comment I certainly as NOT in agreement with.
I was associated with TWI from 1974-1996. During that time, I saw small-minded, legalistic busybodies try to run my world and I saw kind-hearted, God-loving people set an example of a Christian walk, and everything in between.
By NO MEANS did I intend to suggest that the legalism in marriage teachings only happened between 1993-96. In 1977 I heard Rev. N**cy D**can teach at a women's advance on a verse in Hebrews that Sara called Abraham "adonai" and that that is a name for God. Sara spoke to Abraham (her own personal god) and Abraham spoke to God for her. Anybody remember that besides me? I think it was also mentioned in the CF&S class.
Let's don't get on a tangent but I'm not sure that's correct. I'm not real good at using concordances but I found the verse in the Young's and it was a different word,.....I think.
The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps.
WG
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WhiteDove
Right unless someone has some sort of provable information it can not be passed off as fact, by definition Sorry if the meaning of the word gets in the way of someone's agenda. But that's the way it is. It's speculation until proven and should be referred to as such until such time as there is adequate proof of fact.
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Nero
I thought I replied to this - but didn't. I do know the difference between the two (I know you weren't implying that I didn't)- they never told us submitting = physical abuse in my camp either.
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Nero
And - just so I know - what would be your solution to there being no "documentation" for people's personal experiences? Should the forum shrivel up and die because everything we've experienced needs to be submitted in triplicate? Should I have to prove everything that has happened to me? I stubbed my toe this morning - I'll need to submit that in writing to paw before I can post on the forum. It has to be documented before it become a fact... otherwise stubbing my toe is just an opinion? Here is a link to the document. Where do we draw the line?
If I was actually taught something good while I was in TWI - what if it wasn't in one of the classes? Do I have the right to share it? Will I need to document that as well?
Or is it just a pet peeve of yours that everyone talks about a bunch of stuff they have no documentation for? Is this just a vent? Or do you want everyone who doesn't share a similar view to be quiet? Not an accusation - but a question.
So would my notes do for you? Or do you need something from TWI? If I can't find them I'm sure they wouldn't mind me sitting in on another marriage class. Although I feel it would be another few hours wasted from my life.
Or do you just want the "It's okay to slap the ladies around" notes? Those I know I won't be able to get.
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JeffSjo
This is how it works for me. Personally I'm sure there were and are big problems with TWI.
I refuse to not take a hurting person seriously or at face value just because they can't document the events that hurt them. I'm certain that often TWI just covered their you know whats instead of doing the right thing and confessed their sins.
So I am compelled to do the decent thing and take care of the one who's hurting, even if I can't document the source of their pain.
Just for the record, I consider covering the sin up to be the cowards way.
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Bumpy
Can I meet Mr. or Mrs. "Unimpeachable"? And who are the "guilty vs. "innocent"? Is anyone 'INNOCENT??
Lordy, Lordy, fur sure a lot of unmanaged repetitive accusations flying around, but nothing resolved as I see it?
What are you going to do what's left of your future...besides bitch about the past and who's guilty?
Write a Hollywood soap before the rest of the world falls asleep.
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JeffSjo
Nope, you can't meet them, they could be hurt even worse.
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rascal
WHAT ax do I have to grind Dove?? What??? You say that...but I have no ax, no agenda....I talk about what happened to me...try to figure out why...how...where was God....how do I stop it from happening to me ever again, how do I teach my children not to be vulnerable...
It seems to offend you deeply that I reiterate my personal experiences in twi. You use that as an excuse to be mean, sarcastic, call me a liar...How many times have led witch hunts where you and your bud`s called me a liar, mentally unstable, a whining perpetual victim....one time you cheered as a psycho poster proclaimed that I was a threat to my children and family....
You have treated me horribly because my treatment does not line up with what you want to believe.
Dove...you read sarcasm where there is none...you read lies where there are none...you use these excuses to treat live flesh and blood breathing souls who love God as much as you do ...who have seen his incredible grace and love abound in their lives...and yet contrary to hhis message to us...you treat us like lying scum.
Dove...what you do hurts. Yet it is your teaching and beliefs aquired in twi that allows you to continue to do this with enthusiasm...and lead others also.
Again, we are flesh and blood people here, loved just as yourself. I relate my experiences because they are mine...for you to call into question my veracity, or to attribute motives such as axe to grind or mental instability or liar or whatever other flavor you come up with this week hurts.
Examine your heart Dove, I hear that you really are a nice guy....see if you think that what you do lines up with our instructions as Christians...if what you do here is how we are supposed to treat one another.
Look at what you do in the name of your religion....and ask yourself if that lines up with our instructions to love God and love our neighbor?
Dove,
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JeffSjo
See you guys
You just hurt people
You probably think you're doing the right thing
Look at the results
If I hurt rascal like you did I'd feel ashamed
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rascal
My personal experiences ... are not my opinions. They are a fact for me. They happened, that moves them out of the realm of personal opinion, and inot the catagory of factual occurance.
For you Dove, to place them in the catagory of *opinion* means that they didn`t happen.
My personal integrity is important, my moral character is important. Your accusations of a lack of truthfullness, or that I have an agenda, or that I have an axe to grind is offensive to me personally.
Do you understand Dove? Do you see what your religion permits you to do? You are able to make excuses for why it is ok to slander someones character and reputation, to further the hurt inflicted by the cruel treatment endured in twi....simply to shut them up because their experiences and their view point aquired makes it uncomfortable for you to maintian your perception of twi :(
I repeat ...Dove, what you do hurts...Do you think that this lines up with God`s instruction to love?
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rascal
Awww ((((Jeff))))
Thank you for that.
I am ok, this had gone on for a very long time. I do not write well enough for the compassion that I feel to be communicated. I guess that I come across harsh and judgemental...not as I intend at all.
I don`t think that it is me personally that Dove dislikes, but my experiences and the pov gained from them. They present a side of twi and the damaging aspects of some of it`s doctrines that is uncomfortable to contemplate.
Even if you and I were never to see eye to eye doctrinally or in our individual perspectives....I could never doubt the love of God that seems to live and abide in your heart Jeff. I respect that, and because of that can *hear* what you have to say.
Please keep shining that love.
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cman
Some us know the truth rascal.
By talking to the people who not only received such treatment, but dished it out.
You are not a liar and most here know that.
By knowing you.
Lately we are getting a lot of folks from other offshoots.
So I'd expect some people to doubt real first hand knowledge of that which happened.
And I might hesitate when and to whom to tell it to.
Some have already made up their minds and their ears don't hear.
And their eyes they have closed. As you know..........
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Tom Strange
gee... I just wish that I could be RIGHT ALL OF THE TIME like WD and johniam... what a trip!
...reminds me sooo much of the TWI trip I was on at one time.
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