WAIT JUST A MINUTE --- Let's back up a bit and see how VPW might have responded to those accusations. ----
MY GOD! VPW DID RESPOND TO THEM!! (It's right there in: "Your Power of Attorney" - Volume II, The New Dynamic Church)
Here is what he [VPW] said:
Every person in the world wants a good name. People desire to be well thought of, and rightly so. I [VPW] want to have a good name, and I [VPW] want people to think well of me. <SNIP> and more bla bla bla...
So???? WTHseed wants to give VIPster license with his own writings.... how touching.
How in the H does that change anything he DID???? So it'a all good cuz he justified himself out of his own mouth???
Bub, you have a weak understanding of things spiritual if you think that passes muster....
just lie, cheat, steal, whatever cuz the GODFather's got your back??????????????
You really think, consider, believe and trust that that is what Christ died for???/?
Why would I believe the words of a man of the flesh used to justify himself and his fruit??
His dirty little secrets out, vp`s credibility is in the toilet...why on EARTH would I care one iota about what he (or anybody) about thinks of my opinions of his fruit?
OH but you do care about what people think of your opinions, otherwise you (like others) wouldn't try to "convert" those who want to believe that VPW was a real, true M.O.G. It get's pretty comical to watch after a while. Someone comes along and "whitewashes" him - then someone else comes along and "blackwashes" him - back and forth and back and forth we go. It goes down something like this: VPW WAS THE GREATEST APOSTLE SINCE THE APOSTLE PAUL! - NO HE WASN'T! HE WAS THE SPAWN OF SATAN!
What I'd like to know is, since when did VPW (or even the apostle Paul or anybody else for that matter) become the central figure of Christianity?
Frankly, I believe those who condemn him actually admire him more than those who have good things to say about him. The reason those people can't shut up or stop talking about VPW is because he fell just a hair short of being 'God-on-a-stick'. They are ashamed he fell "just a hair short" and they want everyone to know just what a big disappointment he was to them. They aren't happy with the fact their "VPW-GOD" failed them! The only reason they bring all his faults out in the open for everyone to view now -- after he is dead -- is so they can do what --- clear the air --- Why?
Because they want to worship and continue on worshipping a 'VPW-GOD' who is faultless!
(But now after he's dead there's certainly no fat chance of that ever happening. --- Right!)
I think the reason this stuff gets talked about has more to do with the quote: "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." (I think that was Teddy Roosevelt. And VP et al does not deem repeating.
Forgive. Forget? NO, for who can forget something like that? But, forgive. Yes, stubborn me. It's good for you, healthy to forgive. Sorry, it's the way I am...
i knew both john shroyer and wayne clapp during my time in twi......... they knew about the lies, the sexual and financial misconduct, the defamation of those who were speaking out about what really went on "behind the scenes" at hq and around the world..........yet, they chose to stick with the liars and the thieves!..........why??
when king okie's loyalty letter went out in march of 1989, both shroyer and clapp willfully chose to "stand" with martindale against geer, and all the rest of the "cop-outs"..........they rose to positions of leadership prominience in the early and mid-1990's.........during a time when king okie pushed twi into the horrors of the "prevailing word in the promised land of the present truth".........which included the infamous "homo purge", absolutely no debt, and the glorious practice of marking and avoiding hapless believers while the dancing prez and his boyz were sexin' it up with any women in the kingdom they desired and badmouthing the rest of the world!.........wayne clapp was running the family corps at rome city for several of those years!.......he was one of martindale's staunchest supporters!........how many humans did he and fern "help" at the behest of martindale? or moynihan?...........how many orders did wayne faithfully carry out which inflicted serious spiritual and psychoemotional harm upon human beings??..........how many lies about former leaders in twi did the clapps joyully pass along to twi followers?.........how many people have they sought out to apologize to for their shameful actions??
I’ve been gone from the Greasespot for about a month, or I would have commented earlier on Don’tWorry’s original posts, but…..what I have to say is that I concur with Don’tWorry’s observations regarding the leaders of CFF.
Concerning one of them mentioned above, I personally witnessed everything he named in this excerpt, in my brief but painful interactions with and in observation of the man.
I watched as he climbed the TWI ladder of success over the broken bodies of believers above and below him in the TWI food chain, I also can attest to the fact that he righteously, obediently, fulfilled the commands of his illustrious leader against the brethren, as any middle manager, or should I say, administrator would, faithfully and swiftly, with little thought to the human damage left in his wake.
I happened to run into this person about 10 years ago, he had no guilt or remorse and had conveniently forgotten much of his participation in those matters, and yet still bad mouthed some, I’m sure he never lost a bit of sleep over what happened to those whom lives he forever changed,…
Thanks Don’tWorry, again, your insights are spot on.
Oldies, if you are going to quote me please, be HONEST and use the entire quote as written instead of just part so that you change the meaning. You left out the very important *after the new birth* at the end of my sentence.
No I didn't. Below is the entire post which says nothing about *after the new birth* at the end of the sentence. YOU please be HONEST.
Not MY theology John dear, but what galatians chapter 5: 19-25
It says uncatagorically that the people who do the things that wierwille did have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God ...shrug
It says that they are quite simply *of the flesh*.
I personally think that it is silly to give spiritual credence to a man proven to be *of the flesh*
You are required to dismiss that whole section of the bible in order to give wierwille any credit as a man worthey of our trust or respect of his teachings as a spiritual leader.
Geemany, is the concept of walking by the flesh or by the spirit so very difficult to comprehend? I suppose so if one wants to continue to live by the *flesh* and pretend that they are *christian*... I guess I can understand why the examination of fruit in ones life to evaluate their spiritual nature would make one uncomfortable...
In Rascal's past post it's evident that Rascalian Theology supports the idea that there are no qualifiers to Galatians 5. "it says uncatagorically that the people who do the things that wierwille did have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God ...shrug"
Now a qualifer is added, i.e., Paul converted, and didn't murder anymore after the new birth, so Galatians 5 doesn't apply to Paul. Well ok, but remember, Paul did continue to sin after the new birth. He still had the old man nature after the new birth and was still stinky on the inside. But it does sound a bit dismissive, like whitewashing Pauls horrible acts, because he converted. It just seems a bit of a double standard ... that some posters could be so relentlessly condemning of Wierwille and others while dismissing other equally horrible acts (and worse).
And so my feeling is if one is going to have such relentless moral outrage over sin, at least be consistent across the board.
BTW, Wierwillian Theology teaches that when one is converted, born again, no matter what they did or how horrible the sin was in the past, they receive a clean slate. Rascalian Theology agrees. So would appear that Rascalian Theology uses parts of Wierwillian Theology when it fits!
i knew both john shroyer and wayne clapp during my time in twi......... they knew about the lies, the sexual and financial misconduct, the defamation of those who were speaking out about what really went on "behind the scenes" at hq and around the world..........yet, they chose to stick with the liars and the thieves!..........why??
when king okie's loyalty letter went out in march of 1989, both shroyer and clapp willfully chose to "stand" with martindale against geer, and all the rest of the "cop-outs"..........they rose to positions of leadership prominience in the early and mid-1990's.........during a time when king okie pushed twi into the horrors of the "prevailing word in the promised land of the present truth".........which included the infamous "homo purge", absolutely no debt, and the glorious practice of marking and avoiding hapless believers while the dancing prez and his boyz were sexin' it up with any women in the kingdom they desired and badmouthing the rest of the world!.........wayne clapp was running the family corps at rome city for several of those years!.......he was one of martindale's staunchest supporters!........how many humans did he and fern "help" at the behest of martindale? or moynihan?...........how many orders did wayne faithfully carry out which inflicted serious spiritual and psychoemotional harm upon human beings??..........how many lies about former leaders in twi did the clapps joyully pass along to twi followers?.........how many people have they sought out to apologize to for their shameful actions??
I gotta say, I completely agree with this also. I couldn't fathom how anyone would stick around during that time. I and a small group of "reactionaries" in the DC Limb were spied on, black balled, and shat upon by thosew ho stayed in. But I must say, it was just so nice to say, "AMF! Adios Mother fu..ers, I mean, Adios My Friends!" But of course, it was a time of mental turmoil and upheaval.
And so, what. It took Martindale getting caught and convicted in a law suit for screwin someone else's wife to cause them to finally get "revelation" or whatever and say; "Oh geez, looks like things are off the Word here. Time to go". WTF? What kind of morons were those guys anyway? Real spiritual "sharpies" huh? Sharp my a$$. Dullards more like. So, was it Craig getting caught and "outed" within TWI that convinced them to leave? Or, was it the Conviction and subsequent Public "outing" of his crimes that was "too much for them to bear", that caused them to go packing a few miles down that Ohio highway? And ya know, I have been in contact with some of the CFS-ers, and I never got an apology. It was just like; "Blesha! How ya been? Ya oughta come down for one of our functions!" No, I'd never participate in any of their crapola. It's all just the same 'ol same 'ol no doubt. No, I'm staying up here in Alaska...
Oldies showed up for work on his day off ?????? Well I'd stay and chat but I must get on the road been busy this weekend with Taylor Overb*y he came down to teach his seminar on Your Authority in Christ ,been recording some additional parts this weekend so as soon as they are edited they will be on disk
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Oldies had to pull this from several months ago on another thread, but here it is.
Not MY theology John dear, but what galatians chapter 5: 19-25
It says uncatagorically that the people who do the things that wierwille did have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God ...shrug
It says that they are quite simply *of the flesh*.
I personally think that it is silly to give spiritual credence to a man proven to be *of the flesh*
You are required to dismiss that whole section of the bible in order to give wierwille any credit as a man worthey of our trust or respect of his teachings as a spiritual leader.
Geemany, is the concept of walking by the flesh or by the spirit so very difficult to comprehend? I suppose so if one wants to continue to live by the *flesh* and pretend that they are *christian*... I guess I can understand why the examination of fruit in ones life to evaluate their spiritual nature would make one uncomfortable... rolleyes.gif
What rascal said on THIS thread, in THIS discussion, THIS week, was:
The adaptation is more of an illusion.
Paul didn`t witness to the ladies promising them deliverance and all the answers to life and Godliness and turn around and tell them that God wanted them to service him sexually. Paul didn`t have his acolyte drug the young women and then rape them. Paul didn`t throw the non compliant from the ministry when they refused. Paul did not destroy lives and tear families assunder at a whim.
Paul was not an alcoholic adultering lying piece of scum, that used the scriptures and the name of God to steal that which was not his after the new birth :(
To attempt to draw a parallell between his life and walk and that of a man of the flesh piece of crap like wierwille who has no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven....is deeply offensive, and damned near blashphemy in my book.
Waysider is right...it was just plain weak.
oldiesman felt the need, rather than continue THIS discussion, to go here:
Not only that, according to Rascalian Doctrine (from a past posting) "people who do the things that wierwille did have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God ... shrug". Well, Paul murdered. That is a lot worse and much more damaging than young sex, so why whitewash that? "read it ... there is no room to wiggle."
Have a nice weekend, one and all. :)
rascal, still having THIS discussion, replied:
Oldies, if you are going to quote me please, be HONEST and use the entire quote as written instead of just part so that you change the meaning. You left out the very important *after the new birth* at the end of my sentence.
What I SAID was......
Paul didn`t witness to the ladies promising them deliverance and all the answers to life and Godliness and turn around and tell them that God wanted them to service him sexually. Paul didn`t have his acolyte drug the young women and then rape them. Paul didn`t throw the non compliant from the ministry when they refused. Paul did not destroy lives and tear families assunder at a whim.
Paul was not an alcoholic adultering lying piece of scum, that used the scriptures and the name of God to steal that which was not his after the new birth :(
Old paul was a changed man after the new birth, a man of the spirit....what the hell was wierwilles excuse?? He was a man of the flesh...he will suffer the consequence. Scriptures say he won`t have an inheritance.
This is the man who made up a seal modelled after the US President's seal, and had his
plane (he didn't NEED a plane) named after, and FURNISHED after, the US President's plane.
This is the man who declared he needed all sorts of bodyguards and that people kept
trying to kill him, when most people had never HEARD of him.
This is the man who put forth that he had received the greatest revelation in nearly
2000 years- which some people not only believed THEN, but believe it still. It's akin to hearing
the Great and Powerful Oz say "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain",
and saying "You're right, Oz, I'll ignore him, although he seemed to be the person projecting
your voice, I shall disregard the evidence of my own senses."
Doesn't sound exactly "normal" to me..
on any count.
Didn't they have some kind of president's anthem or something they were to play at the supposed appropriate time?
I remember a number of years ago he went on tour..
did some kind of itinerary where fawning, slobbering followers cheered him on everywhere he went.
then got a second rate auditorium with his name on it..
and what about the times the corps were rousted in the middle of the night, to stand in the driveway to greet the mogster at his arrival at a campus somewhere in Kansas..
or standing in a cornfield in front of a tent wearing tux and top hat, followers anxiously awaiting the official opening, an airplane flying just a hundred feet over the tent..
this is just scratching the surface.
"oh, oh, don't give me the glory.. it's da greatness of gawd ya know.."
right. Just when you don't not give him the glory, make sure that when you don't deliver the glory to the right place, don't do it without the right kind of protocol.
loy never quite attained the same god like status.. didn't he forbid vic's name from being even uttered, at one time or another?
people were saying.. "how would "doc" handle the verse.. how would "doc" handle the circumstance.."
found he couldn't even compete with a dead man. Maybe that's what "atheletes" was all about.. sex two or three or more times a day.. jumping about in tights.. "lessee you do THIS, old man.." I'd imagine vic sitting there.. his whole life flashing before his eyes..
About the only two options I can condense this to in my small mind.. either these two were simply calloused, plain evil and calculating in their efforts to defraud God's people, corral women into their respective office or motorcoach, abuse people and deliberately attempt to decieve, justifying it with scripture..
or they were *merely* insane. Really believed it all.. just happened to be wackos that had the DUMB LUCK to hit the "big time".. I think the vicster may have been schizophrenic.. he'd be gawd almighty on one hand, breathing fire and meanness, then on the other.. he'd be the sweetest little "crying like a baby" guy you'd ever seen. Not loy. I never remember loy being able to turn on, or switch to the "mr sensitivity" routine.. I would think of loy more in the previous category. And the fox. I wonder why she would try to avoid vic's phone calls.. "tell him I'm not in.." hide behind staff.. get people to lie for her.. maybe she came to the same conclusion- he was NUTS. Just be quiet.. keep the women, gifts and drambuie flowing.. stay low key.. do the same thing for the "man" who came after him.. if she thought "I'm doing this so when I get control, I'll be able to heal gawd's people's precious hearts.." the time is long past.
I think this rambling isn't too far off topic. How can you forgive a madman? Or a hard core, hardened criminal? Or their cronies?
No I didn't. Below is the entire post which says nothing about *after the new birth* at the end of the sentence. YOU please be HONEST.
In Rascal's past post it's evident that Rascalian Theology supports the idea that there are no qualifiers to Galatians 5. "it says uncatagorically that the people who do the things that wierwille did have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God ...shrug"
Now a qualifer is added, i.e., Paul converted, and didn't murder anymore after the new birth, so Galatians 5 doesn't apply to Paul. Well ok, but remember, Paul did continue to sin after the new birth. He still had the old man nature after the new birth and was still stinky on the inside. But it does sound a bit dismissive, like whitewashing Pauls horrible acts, because he converted. It just seems a bit of a double standard ... that some posters could be so relentlessly condemning of Wierwille and others while dismissing other equally horrible acts (and worse).
And so my feeling is if one is going to have such relentless moral outrage over sin, at least be consistent across the board.
BTW, Wierwillian Theology teaches that when one is converted, born again, no matter what they did or how horrible the sin was in the past, they receive a clean slate. Rascalian Theology agrees. So would appear that Rascalian Theology uses parts of Wierwillian Theology when it fits!
So, I shall address oldiesman's comments, which I provided the relevant posts for, in the interests of clarity,
and added the verses in Galatians for good measure.
I think it really is not a big jump to think that Galatians 5's list of the works of the flesh, and the people having
no inheritance in the kingdom of God, SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDES PAUL,
and rascal didn't need to say it.
Apparently, some of us are unable to see it, so I will spell it out for those of us who need the help-files enabled.
Galatians 1:1-3.
1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,.
God's giving the warnings of Galatians by WHOSE hand?
Everyone see it?
PAUL.
Is God Almighty going to give THE warning about people who will not inherit the kingdom of God
DIRECTLY THROUGH someone who is not going to inherit the kingdom of God?
Well, I suppose some of you may have difficulty seeing what's apparent to most, so I'll answer my own question.
God Almighty did not entrust His Word to incompetents, and it was neither written nor delivered by the hand
of the unbeliever, the faithless, the men or women of the flesh.
Did Paul's actions before his new birth displease God? Yes.
Did God Almighty exclude him from the kingdom of God on that basis?
Obviously NOT- Jesus Christ HIMSELF showed up and Paul got the chance to show that he was not all about
the works of the flesh. Paul repented of his past deeds, and spent the rest of his life serving God, and NOT
serving himself, and pouring out his own life for the brethren. For him, that's no exaggeration.
Thanks Wolf for not letting my point get lost amongst the obfuscation.
Sure, Paul did awful things in the name of God....BEFORE the life changing impact of the new birth.
Wierwille did awful things his entire life.....he never changed...he acted as a man of the flesh....he spent most of his life finding out ways to make the scriptures say what he WANTED them to say....so that he could do as he damned well pleased.
These are not the actions of a man of the spirit...but a man of the flesh that simply claims to be spiritual.
That is why we were told to examine the fruit in someones life...you just can`t tell by what they say, or their works.
No the key words are fruit, and what their presence, or lack of signifies.
Sincerely, I think the "key word" is CWAZY. Nutso, wired wrong.. it goes by other nicer names.
But if a guy thinks he's a wabbit.. wears pointed ears, pulls up cabbage and carrots from the neighbors garden, with his bare teeth.. what's the "conclusion"?
Or if he claims to be Napoleon.. or some other long expired "man of greatness" in history..
they used to lock them up. Now, they run the streets.. budget cuts ya know..
at least MOST of them don't get many followers. Restart the French revolution or something..
But why is it.. a "fellow" who displays DRAMATIC mood swings.. claims to have the greatest TRUTH since the earth cooled.. just ADORES having followers supply his every whim.. consumed Drambuie like a horse gulping down water.. absolutely DEMANDS worship and protocol, under his breath of course.. and sometimes not so quietly..
buys a "doctorate" at a degree mill, and plasters the name on every publication he has control of..
yep..that was the name on my pfal syllabus.. "DR vp"..
claims to have saved the u.s. from violent overthrow, if not western civilization itself, by the "might" of his great believing..
my god.. he got us to build an AUDITORIUM in his name..
let followers lavish him with praise, call him THE man of GOD for our day and time..
be able to convince women that sex with the mogster could be considered a holy duty of sorts..
Why is it when one mixes the bible into the mix.. the madman is no longer a madman.. he's a SAINT, and worthy to be compared to the apostle Paul.. to Solomon.. to David..
after all, he can grunt a half a dozen words that sound like Swahili or something.
:)
Now we're supposed to forgive him, and those after him who followed in his steps..
get quotes of verses claiming just voicing what logic dictates puts one in threat of "blasphemy against the holy spirit"..
sorry.. I'm just trying to understand some people..
:)
Twenty some years ago, I would have been better off going off, following a wabbit..
Perhaps his behavior was merely symptomatic of much greater problems.
_______________________________________
"With the propensity to act only on the behalf of one's self, the unbridled need to feed one's ego, and the objectification of others to serve the power hungry needs of megalomania, it is easy to see how this can be a recipe for disaster, especially when wrapped in a charismatic personality."
Thanks Wolf for not letting my point get lost amongst the obfuscation.
Yeah, a lot of that obfuscation stuff DOES happen here, especially in this thread.
Has anyone else noticed that?
There’s a style of TV show production that’s like this. I remember one early show that exploited this technique to the max and all the time. It was “The Love Boat.” Each episode was actually about 4 or 5 separate episodes contained within. The show’s story would switch back and forth between all the sub-plots. Since “The Love Boat” (which I hated for this VERY same reason: the segmented plots) I’ve seen many other TV shows do similar things.
This thread’s jumping from obfuscation to obfuscation reminds me of “The Love Boat.”
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rascal
Bride of JC, thank you for that gentle exhortation. I will consider your words, Thank you :)
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alfakat
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What The Hey
OH but you do care about what people think of your opinions, otherwise you (like others) wouldn't try to "convert" those who want to believe that VPW was a real, true M.O.G. It get's pretty comical to watch after a while. Someone comes along and "whitewashes" him - then someone else comes along and "blackwashes" him - back and forth and back and forth we go. It goes down something like this: VPW WAS THE GREATEST APOSTLE SINCE THE APOSTLE PAUL! - NO HE WASN'T! HE WAS THE SPAWN OF SATAN!
What I'd like to know is, since when did VPW (or even the apostle Paul or anybody else for that matter) become the central figure of Christianity?
Frankly, I believe those who condemn him actually admire him more than those who have good things to say about him. The reason those people can't shut up or stop talking about VPW is because he fell just a hair short of being 'God-on-a-stick'. They are ashamed he fell "just a hair short" and they want everyone to know just what a big disappointment he was to them. They aren't happy with the fact their "VPW-GOD" failed them! The only reason they bring all his faults out in the open for everyone to view now -- after he is dead -- is so they can do what --- clear the air --- Why?
Because they want to worship and continue on worshipping a 'VPW-GOD' who is faultless!
(But now after he's dead there's certainly no fat chance of that ever happening. --- Right!)
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rascal
Just a hair short?? That is pretty calloused even from you wth.
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washn'wear
I think the reason this stuff gets talked about has more to do with the quote: "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." (I think that was Teddy Roosevelt. And VP et al does not deem repeating.
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J0nny Ling0
Forgive. Forget? NO, for who can forget something like that? But, forgive. Yes, stubborn me. It's good for you, healthy to forgive. Sorry, it's the way I am...
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now I see
I’ve been gone from the Greasespot for about a month, or I would have commented earlier on Don’tWorry’s original posts, but…..what I have to say is that I concur with Don’tWorry’s observations regarding the leaders of CFF.
Concerning one of them mentioned above, I personally witnessed everything he named in this excerpt, in my brief but painful interactions with and in observation of the man.
I watched as he climbed the TWI ladder of success over the broken bodies of believers above and below him in the TWI food chain, I also can attest to the fact that he righteously, obediently, fulfilled the commands of his illustrious leader against the brethren, as any middle manager, or should I say, administrator would, faithfully and swiftly, with little thought to the human damage left in his wake.
I happened to run into this person about 10 years ago, he had no guilt or remorse and had conveniently forgotten much of his participation in those matters, and yet still bad mouthed some, I’m sure he never lost a bit of sleep over what happened to those whom lives he forever changed,…
Thanks Don’tWorry, again, your insights are spot on.
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WordWolf
The question is based on a false premise-
that vpw did NOT care what people thought of him,
based on one statement made in one book,
and SUPPOSED to mean he meant "I don't care what people think of me, period."
This is the SAME man that taught that we should stand when a leader entered the room-
and he was THE Leader, according to him.
This is the man who called a press conference, and when the press showed up,
decided that they were supposed to be in semiformal when interviewing him.
(There's no dress code for even interviewing the vice-president- people have interviewed
him in casual wear.)
This is the man who made up a seal modelled after the US President's seal, and had his
plane (he didn't NEED a plane) named after, and FURNISHED after, the US President's plane.
This is the man who declared he needed all sorts of bodyguards and that people kept
trying to kill him, when most people had never HEARD of him.
This is the man who put forth that he had received the greatest revelation in nearly
2000 years- which some people not only believed THEN, but believe it still. It's akin to hearing
the Great and Powerful Oz say "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain",
and saying "You're right, Oz, I'll ignore him, although he seemed to be the person projecting
your voice, I shall disregard the evidence of my own senses."
This is the same man who claimed to wrestle with the devil PERSONALLY for the world.
Supposedly, one of less than the fingers of one hand to do so in all of history, including Jesus Christ.
This man was OBSESSED with manipulating his public image.
People's opinions of him meant a GREAT deal.
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WordWolf
That was, at the latest, about 1 year into attending the corps.
According to twi, and according to vpw, the most significant man in Christianity-
and thus, in the world- SINCE the Apostle Paul WAS vpw.
Then again, the Branch Davidians thought the so-called "David Koresh" was the most
significant man in Christianity, and the People's Temple thought Jim Jones
was the most significant man in Christianity, and so on.
When someone destroys lives, or damages them, people talk about it when they find out.
And when dangerous practices that damaged and destroyed lives continue,
people talk about THOSE.
When it happens in twi and extwi organizations, it gets discussed HERE, in the twi survivor
messageboard.
Why should that qualify as news, generate surprise, or even need explaining at all?
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oldiesman
I am posting on a Sunday! Wow.
No I didn't. Below is the entire post which says nothing about *after the new birth* at the end of the sentence. YOU please be HONEST.
In Rascal's past post it's evident that Rascalian Theology supports the idea that there are no qualifiers to Galatians 5. "it says uncatagorically that the people who do the things that wierwille did have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God ...shrug"
Now a qualifer is added, i.e., Paul converted, and didn't murder anymore after the new birth, so Galatians 5 doesn't apply to Paul. Well ok, but remember, Paul did continue to sin after the new birth. He still had the old man nature after the new birth and was still stinky on the inside. But it does sound a bit dismissive, like whitewashing Pauls horrible acts, because he converted. It just seems a bit of a double standard ... that some posters could be so relentlessly condemning of Wierwille and others while dismissing other equally horrible acts (and worse).
And so my feeling is if one is going to have such relentless moral outrage over sin, at least be consistent across the board.
BTW, Wierwillian Theology teaches that when one is converted, born again, no matter what they did or how horrible the sin was in the past, they receive a clean slate. Rascalian Theology agrees. So would appear that Rascalian Theology uses parts of Wierwillian Theology when it fits!
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J0nny Ling0
I gotta say, I completely agree with this also. I couldn't fathom how anyone would stick around during that time. I and a small group of "reactionaries" in the DC Limb were spied on, black balled, and shat upon by thosew ho stayed in. But I must say, it was just so nice to say, "AMF! Adios Mother fu..ers, I mean, Adios My Friends!" But of course, it was a time of mental turmoil and upheaval.
And so, what. It took Martindale getting caught and convicted in a law suit for screwin someone else's wife to cause them to finally get "revelation" or whatever and say; "Oh geez, looks like things are off the Word here. Time to go". WTF? What kind of morons were those guys anyway? Real spiritual "sharpies" huh? Sharp my a$$. Dullards more like. So, was it Craig getting caught and "outed" within TWI that convinced them to leave? Or, was it the Conviction and subsequent Public "outing" of his crimes that was "too much for them to bear", that caused them to go packing a few miles down that Ohio highway? And ya know, I have been in contact with some of the CFS-ers, and I never got an apology. It was just like; "Blesha! How ya been? Ya oughta come down for one of our functions!" No, I'd never participate in any of their crapola. It's all just the same 'ol same 'ol no doubt. No, I'm staying up here in Alaska...
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WhiteDove
Oldies showed up for work on his day off ?????? Well I'd stay and chat but I must get on the road been busy this weekend with Taylor Overb*y he came down to teach his seminar on Your Authority in Christ ,been recording some additional parts this weekend so as soon as they are edited they will be on disk
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WordWolf
Galatians 5: 16-24 (KJV)
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Oldies had to pull this from several months ago on another thread, but here it is.
What rascal said on THIS thread, in THIS discussion, THIS week, was:
oldiesman felt the need, rather than continue THIS discussion, to go here:
rascal, still having THIS discussion, replied:
As we see, that IS what she had said.
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Ham
Doesn't sound exactly "normal" to me..
on any count.
Didn't they have some kind of president's anthem or something they were to play at the supposed appropriate time?
I remember a number of years ago he went on tour..
did some kind of itinerary where fawning, slobbering followers cheered him on everywhere he went.
then got a second rate auditorium with his name on it..
and what about the times the corps were rousted in the middle of the night, to stand in the driveway to greet the mogster at his arrival at a campus somewhere in Kansas..
or standing in a cornfield in front of a tent wearing tux and top hat, followers anxiously awaiting the official opening, an airplane flying just a hundred feet over the tent..
this is just scratching the surface.
"oh, oh, don't give me the glory.. it's da greatness of gawd ya know.."
right. Just when you don't not give him the glory, make sure that when you don't deliver the glory to the right place, don't do it without the right kind of protocol.
loy never quite attained the same god like status.. didn't he forbid vic's name from being even uttered, at one time or another?
people were saying.. "how would "doc" handle the verse.. how would "doc" handle the circumstance.."
found he couldn't even compete with a dead man. Maybe that's what "atheletes" was all about.. sex two or three or more times a day.. jumping about in tights.. "lessee you do THIS, old man.." I'd imagine vic sitting there.. his whole life flashing before his eyes..
About the only two options I can condense this to in my small mind.. either these two were simply calloused, plain evil and calculating in their efforts to defraud God's people, corral women into their respective office or motorcoach, abuse people and deliberately attempt to decieve, justifying it with scripture..
or they were *merely* insane. Really believed it all.. just happened to be wackos that had the DUMB LUCK to hit the "big time".. I think the vicster may have been schizophrenic.. he'd be gawd almighty on one hand, breathing fire and meanness, then on the other.. he'd be the sweetest little "crying like a baby" guy you'd ever seen. Not loy. I never remember loy being able to turn on, or switch to the "mr sensitivity" routine.. I would think of loy more in the previous category. And the fox. I wonder why she would try to avoid vic's phone calls.. "tell him I'm not in.." hide behind staff.. get people to lie for her.. maybe she came to the same conclusion- he was NUTS. Just be quiet.. keep the women, gifts and drambuie flowing.. stay low key.. do the same thing for the "man" who came after him.. if she thought "I'm doing this so when I get control, I'll be able to heal gawd's people's precious hearts.." the time is long past.
I think this rambling isn't too far off topic. How can you forgive a madman? Or a hard core, hardened criminal? Or their cronies?
Maybe understand.. but forgive? I don't know.
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WordWolf
So, I shall address oldiesman's comments, which I provided the relevant posts for, in the interests of clarity,
and added the verses in Galatians for good measure.
I think it really is not a big jump to think that Galatians 5's list of the works of the flesh, and the people having
no inheritance in the kingdom of God, SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDES PAUL,
and rascal didn't need to say it.
Apparently, some of us are unable to see it, so I will spell it out for those of us who need the help-files enabled.
Galatians 1:1-3.
1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,.
God's giving the warnings of Galatians by WHOSE hand?
Everyone see it?
PAUL.
Is God Almighty going to give THE warning about people who will not inherit the kingdom of God
DIRECTLY THROUGH someone who is not going to inherit the kingdom of God?
Well, I suppose some of you may have difficulty seeing what's apparent to most, so I'll answer my own question.
God Almighty did not entrust His Word to incompetents, and it was neither written nor delivered by the hand
of the unbeliever, the faithless, the men or women of the flesh.
Did Paul's actions before his new birth displease God? Yes.
Did God Almighty exclude him from the kingdom of God on that basis?
Obviously NOT- Jesus Christ HIMSELF showed up and Paul got the chance to show that he was not all about
the works of the flesh. Paul repented of his past deeds, and spent the rest of his life serving God, and NOT
serving himself, and pouring out his own life for the brethren. For him, that's no exaggeration.
Paul exhibited "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance".
He "crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Therefore, he "was Christ's."
On the other hand, Paul COULD have taken his chance and committed adultery, fornication, lasciviousness,
unclean acts, worshipped and served HIMSELF, spewed hatred at times and exhibited wrath,
envied the rich and been a drunkard.
As Galatians 5 tells us, they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
The apostle Paul did not do that.
If you want an account of a man who did all that, you will have to look at a DIFFERENT man.
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Mike
The key word is "inheritance."
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rascal
Thanks Wolf for not letting my point get lost amongst the obfuscation.
Sure, Paul did awful things in the name of God....BEFORE the life changing impact of the new birth.
Wierwille did awful things his entire life.....he never changed...he acted as a man of the flesh....he spent most of his life finding out ways to make the scriptures say what he WANTED them to say....so that he could do as he damned well pleased.
These are not the actions of a man of the spirit...but a man of the flesh that simply claims to be spiritual.
That is why we were told to examine the fruit in someones life...you just can`t tell by what they say, or their works.
No the key words are fruit, and what their presence, or lack of signifies.
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Ham
Sincerely, I think the "key word" is CWAZY. Nutso, wired wrong.. it goes by other nicer names.
But if a guy thinks he's a wabbit.. wears pointed ears, pulls up cabbage and carrots from the neighbors garden, with his bare teeth.. what's the "conclusion"?
Or if he claims to be Napoleon.. or some other long expired "man of greatness" in history..
they used to lock them up. Now, they run the streets.. budget cuts ya know..
at least MOST of them don't get many followers. Restart the French revolution or something..
But why is it.. a "fellow" who displays DRAMATIC mood swings.. claims to have the greatest TRUTH since the earth cooled.. just ADORES having followers supply his every whim.. consumed Drambuie like a horse gulping down water.. absolutely DEMANDS worship and protocol, under his breath of course.. and sometimes not so quietly..
buys a "doctorate" at a degree mill, and plasters the name on every publication he has control of..
yep..that was the name on my pfal syllabus.. "DR vp"..
claims to have saved the u.s. from violent overthrow, if not western civilization itself, by the "might" of his great believing..
my god.. he got us to build an AUDITORIUM in his name..
let followers lavish him with praise, call him THE man of GOD for our day and time..
be able to convince women that sex with the mogster could be considered a holy duty of sorts..
Why is it when one mixes the bible into the mix.. the madman is no longer a madman.. he's a SAINT, and worthy to be compared to the apostle Paul.. to Solomon.. to David..
after all, he can grunt a half a dozen words that sound like Swahili or something.
:)
Now we're supposed to forgive him, and those after him who followed in his steps..
get quotes of verses claiming just voicing what logic dictates puts one in threat of "blasphemy against the holy spirit"..
sorry.. I'm just trying to understand some people..
:)
Twenty some years ago, I would have been better off going off, following a wabbit..
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waysider
"In Ancient Greece, 'hubris' referred to actions taken in order to shame and humiliate the victim, thereby making oneself seem superior."
From this source>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris
Perhaps his behavior was merely symptomatic of much greater problems.
_______________________________________
"With the propensity to act only on the behalf of one's self, the unbridled need to feed one's ego, and the objectification of others to serve the power hungry needs of megalomania, it is easy to see how this can be a recipe for disaster, especially when wrapped in a charismatic personality."
From this source>>> http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-megalomania.htm
________________________________________________
Do we forgive someone for being ill, or do we forgive them for using their illness to inflict damage?
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Mike
It's a good thing none of that hubris stuff happens here!
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waysider
If and when it does, we at least have an avenue of recourse.
We are allowed to post a response or opposing view , provided we follow the rules that have been clearly defined.
The luxury of voicing an opposing view is something that was not always "available" in TWI, especially in Fellow Laborers.
My handle,"waysider" has its origin in the practice of discussing discrepancies and sharing confidences with other FL.
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Mike
Yeah, a lot of that obfuscation stuff DOES happen here, especially in this thread.
Has anyone else noticed that?
There’s a style of TV show production that’s like this. I remember one early show that exploited this technique to the max and all the time. It was “The Love Boat.” Each episode was actually about 4 or 5 separate episodes contained within. The show’s story would switch back and forth between all the sub-plots. Since “The Love Boat” (which I hated for this VERY same reason: the segmented plots) I’ve seen many other TV shows do similar things.
This thread’s jumping from obfuscation to obfuscation reminds me of “The Love Boat.”
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doojable
Uhhhhh.....
Mr. Kettle, Mr. Kettle? Mr. Pot is calling you with a message.....something about ... obfuscation..
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Mike
You mean that was the commercial, and now the camera is on ME?
I forgot my place!
Lines! Lines!
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