Has anyone seen the irony in the fact that vp taught that parents should "believe" for their children... and yet he found a way to minimize the pain of abortion?
I won't even get into the pro-life/ choice arguments. That's another issue entirely that I don't want to discuss because the thread will go completely off course.
Think about it... like TheHighway said, for the most part we were young. Our parental instincts had not kicked in. It's a fairly easy thing to say "Just believe. Don't worry about your kids" when you don't have any. Here we were, sometimes "counseling" people much older than we were, telling them to NOT do what comes fairly naturally to most parents.
Regarding abortion, our youth made it equally easy to tell someone, "Well... it's not a soul yet." But in this case, many of us were too young to understand the remorse that comes from that decision down the road.
The essence of this thread is not about what the "other" minister said at the boy's funeral, it's about Wierwille telling us that the mother's fear killed the little boy.
In fact, just to demonstrate how citing the words of this minister at the funeral is being used a diversionary tactic, try leaving that part of the story out and read it again.
Kinda like when you read a sentence that says "Bobby and me" and you try to figure out if it should say "Bobby and I " by leaving Bobby out of the sentence.
In other words, what the other minister said at the funeral is irrelevant to the point that Wierwille was making .
The only function it(adding the ministers words) serves is to add color to the incident by introducing yet another doctrinal seed of thought.
but i definitely think the "other side of the story" doesn't change what i was saying
as stated here in other posts
do you see that ?
--
okay that preacher with all the kids ? so he's the one who kept his kids from dying, right ?
--
also
I went to the service of that boy and you know what the minister preached on? That God now had another rose petal in heaven. My God people! To think of it, that God Almighty, who created the heavens and the earth, that he should want to kill a little boy like that because God needed another rose petal in heaven. Oh my God when are we going to learn something? That's blasphemy!
so God would NEVER kill that little boy ? only his mommy would
--
ps. i'm REALLY sorry for bringing the 6th grade nun into this
that was not my intent (to distract from my own thread, but it was part of my memory of billy)
i wanted to talk about the fear in the heart and the life of that murdering mother....
Many years ago, I knew a man who became suddenly ill with a somewhat rare and deadly illness.
This disease requires prompt medical intervention for the person to stand a chance of survival.
Although he was not a "little boy", I think his legacy speaks to this question.
According to what I was told, at that time, his demise was the result of "freaking out" about the severity of the condition and a failure to "believe" for healing.
You know what killed that man?
The attempt to try to change reality by virtue of an insane doctrine called "the law of believing".
Yes, thank you very much, WTH, for posting the rest of the story. It hasn't been since I was in and still a Christian that I have read or heard the whole story again.
You know what I now see in this, quite possibly made up, story?
The woman goes to her minister for advise, council.
The minister basically says pray and give them to God. Basically saying believe that God will take care of them.
The very next thing in the story is a year later the kid is dead.
VPW tells the story in a way that assumes the woman ignored her minister's advise and her fear kills her son.
BUT, when the kid is killed the mother is not there. After years of walking him making sure he is safe she is not there. Looks to me that the mother took her minister's advise and gave her son to God that morning at the morning prayer.
Then the minster says God took another rose pedal blah blah blah blah.
I see this as a story about the blissfulness of faith. It certainly isn't about God's protection or God's love. It isn't really even about fear. VPW turned it into that, but really not all that subtly.
The essence of this thread is not about what the "other" minister said at the boy's funeral, it's about Wierwille telling us that the mother's fear killed the little boy.
In fact, just to demonstrate how citing the words of this minister at the funeral is being used a diversionary tactic, try leaving that part of the story out and read it again.
Kinda like when you read a sentence that says "Bobby and me" and you try to figure out if it should say "Bobby and I " by leaving Bobby out of the sentence.
In other words, what the other minister said at the funeral is irrelevant to the point that Wierwille was making .
The only function it(adding the ministers words) serves is to add color to the incident by introducing yet another doctrinal seed of thought.
It is interesting to note how you large sized that type in: "the mothers fear killed the little boy". I assume you large sized that type simply because that is the way VPW allegedly said it (and how we love to use that word lately - allegedly) in PFAL. According to Rascal's response, we allegedly have a normal real mother who was allegedly seeking counsel from this allegedly made up minister by VPW. Of course, VPW allegedly made up the ministers, but the mother from the story is allegedly real! Sorry - can't have it both ways - a "real mother" seeking counsel and speaking with a "made up minister"?
Of course the story of the minister is important, because VPW is contrasting that woman's prayer life (which allegedly is none existant) with the minister's in the story. You can't very well contrast that mother's 'non-existant' prayer life with the minister's prayer life, if we leave him completely out of the story, can we?
People have "assumed" this story is based on the mothers being afraid - of her being terrified that something horrible will happen to her little "Johnny." The story is more about, and it deals with the absence of faith - when we contrast that mothers prayer life with the ministers prayer life in the story.
We have come to assume "fear" always deals with someone being horrified, and being stricken with terror." (Largely due to those Freddie Kruger and Jason movies from Horror-wood I imagine). But biblically speaking, fear does not necessarily mean one is horrified or terrified. Biblically speaking, it (fear) means the absence of faith. One does not necessarily have to be horrified or terrified to have an absence of faith, although an absence of faith may lead one to that end result - hence the reason for that mother's actions in the story.
Never the less the story is bull sheet. Wierwille takes a perfectly NORMAL instinct in mothers, and uses that as an excuse to demonize the mother, to blame her for her childs death.
It was a sick disturbing teaching that put the blame on the parents when their children fell ill, or were killed. The very most horrible thing that can happen to someone in this life....and then add unspeakable guilt and shame.
I think it was the beginning of teaching us to turn off our instincts, to ignore that still small voice inside that would have guided us, had we not been trained to ignore it.
Never the less the story is bull sheet. Wierwille takes a perfectly NORMAL instinct in mothers, and uses that as an excuse to demonize the mother, to blame her for her childs death.
It was a sick disturbing teaching that put the blame on the parents when their children fell ill, or were killed. The very most horrible thing that can happen to someone in this life....and then add unspeakable guilt and shame.
I think it was the beginning of teaching us to turn off our instincts, to ignore that still small voice inside that would have guided us, had we not been trained to ignore it.
Never the less the story is bull sheet. Wierwille takes a perfectly NORMAL instinct in mothers, and uses that as an excuse to demonize the mother, to blame her for her childs death.
It was a sick disturbing teaching that put the blame on the parents when their children fell ill, or were killed. The very most horrible thing that can happen to someone in this life....and then add unspeakable guilt and shame.
I think it was the beginning of teaching us to turn off our instincts, to ignore that still small voice inside that would have guided us, had we not been trained to ignore it.
The way the VPster tells the story, the guy at the breakfast table/prayer sounds like he doesn't give a crap about his kids. "Lord, you worry about them, there's too many for me".
Basically God's a Nanny, to him. Did he shirk other responsibilities?
Come on -------- the story's for rubes. It sounded like it was one of those good ol' boy cracker-barrel sto reez, told while crackin' peanuts and swizzlin' fizz.
This amounts to trying to figure out who is more spiritually raw-ght on - Pepe LePew or the Roadrunner. It's silly. Everyone knows Pepe Lepew is.
Really - the story does have sad overtones and implications, but it's not worth getting in a snot over.
Now if there'd been red drape involved - THEN we've got a stor-ee....
Absolutely, waysider. The relationship between the drapes and the mother is clear - both instances involved women, and you can see the reason why one succeeedd and the other didn't. In the one, the woman didn't listen to the VPster and went out and got her own drapes, RED ones, whether he 'believed' that such an incredible thing as RED drapes, actual drapes that are RED, was even possible. The hidden message there is -when it comes to wall and window coverings, don't listen to VPW, who may have actually been color blind at that point. Think about it - he had a lot of trouble with his eyes over the years. Anyway - the truth is the truth and if someone doesn't want to believe the accuracy of the word, they're diggin' their own grave, knowwhutamean? It's right there in the class.
In the instance of this woman and her child, I see that there's a STRONG possiblity that this was the same woman, who, although she could believe like the dickens when it came to wall and window coverings, had a real short suit when it came to kids. So really, it balances out, as to God there's no levels of sin or wrongdoing, so her fear couldn't have been any worse on Day 1 with her child than it was on Day 98. Think about it. It's all right there, real ducky and all.
I can see that excie. It is sad. Embedded in the story is a great loss - and today I can see how insensitive it is to use an example of a mother who, misguided or not, feared so for her child. As all parents certainly do, who love their kids. You want things to work out for them, but they always don't and no matter how far we go to protect them, they go into the world alone.
Not altogether alone, though. There's a serious flaw in the stor-ee, true or not and it took me awhile to see it. While it always rang like an embellished second hand story to me since day 1 I heard it, it wasn't till several years down the line that I realized how utterly wrong it's point is.
Digging into the details is useless, IMO, as the story is just that - a set of statements that may or may not be true. Nothing else is known about the stor-ee other than what's stated.
According to the VPster, sin has no levels, no gradients. Sin is sin. Fear at it's root is sin, in PFAL. Wrong believing, Or "believing in reverse", (an unwieldy definition even in context) it's contradictory to active trust in God.
That being the case, there's no accumulative effect of "fearing" day after day. Fear is fear. Big fear, little fear, not so. There's no big sin, little sin, in PFAL.
If fear is the cause of the death, there was as much potential on Day 1 of Fear Factor as there was on Day 999.
Which begs the question, why didn't it happen on Day 1. Or Day 12?
I might say well, in Storeeville, constant obsession over something could produce a pattern of action that would build an environment friendly to a bad or negative result. But that's not the point being made - VPW messed up his own stor-ee. The concept of fear being the impetus, the cause, the root of what happened would have to mean that the environment was as conducive to what happened on any day.
This is of course what VPW used to celebrate the Ozzie Nelson-minister guy. He didn't pray endlessly to get the "positive result" of his prayer. He munched it off and chowed down into his bacon and biscuits. Guys in VPW's world are like that. No worryin' fer me, dernit! No time for it! Things to do!
It's obvious in the storee - sometimes terrible things happen to people. No one deserves to die like that. Fear could certainly make a person do something ill advised, but THAT'S NOT IN THE STOREE, at all. Fear in the story is the "believing" in the heart of that Mom.
But it's still a stupid story. In the way I try to shake off a bad dream when I wake up, it needs shaking off.
Biblically speaking, it (fear) means the absence of faith.
Exodus 18:21
Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
Psalm 66:16
Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what he hath done for my soul.
Ecclesiastes 8:12
Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Acts 13:16
Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
1 Peter 2:17
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Psalm 19:9
The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Psalm 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Proverbs 14:26
In the fear of the LORD is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.
Proverbs 14:27
The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
Acts 9:31
Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
========
Thank you for playing. have a nice day. Jesus loves you.
I went to the service of that boy and you know what the minister preached on? That God now had another rose petal in heaven. My God people! To think of it, that God Almighty, who created the heavens and the earth, that he should want to kill a little boy like that because God needed another rose petal in heaven. Oh my God when are we going to learn something? That's blasphemy!
Now you have the other half of this story. What should we say of the minister who said God now had a nother rose petal in heaven? I'd like to think, to put it in your own words:
how unloving, how cruel, how disgusting, i don't even have the words
--
okay thank you for letting me rant
Thanks for reminding me that vpw was so callous, he could turn compassion into something
disgusting.
Let's say YOU were the minister, and you knew a mother, and a child, and had watched
the child grow up. You weren't there 24/7 in the child's life, but you were aware as events
unfolded, and you both got to know each other as people, and interacted regularly,
even if it was only a moment here and there.
Then, one day, you learn this child was struck dead by a vehicle.
Do you agree to deliver the sermon at this child's funeral?
If you have a heart like a normal human you do.
When you do that sermon, do you attempt to say something comforting to the parents,
the rest of the family, the friends?
If you have a heart like a normal human you do.
(Some of us DIDN'T have a heart like a normal human- and used such situations
to teach the hurt, mourning people "The Truth Of The Word".
We know better now, and we're very sorry.)
So, when you do that sermon, and you say something meant to comfort the family,
you might be less than 100% perfect on doctrine.
However, if you're 100% perfect on compassion, nobody in the room is going to care.
Thus, most people wouldn't greatly object to something like
"Your child's suffering has ended. He has entered into the personal presence of God
Almighty. Jesus Himself has dried his tears, and shown him how to smile again.
Now, he can play whenever he wants, and the loving presence of God is before
him always. Someday you will be reunited with your child, and then, after Jesus
has wiped away your tears, you can share with him all the things you've done
since then, and he can share with you all the things he has done since then."
(Yes, I just came up with that now. I asked my heart what I would say if I
believed the standard doctrine, and was in the minister's position.)
Somewhere in there, the minister might indeed say something like
"Now your precious rose petal is in heaven, with the Almighty God."
MOST people, even those who believe in "soul sleep" and so on, would basically
see this as compassionate, and decide to "get over themselves" rather than
issue a minority opinion at the funeral. MOST people have a sense of perspective,
and a sense of tact.
As we all know, people in twi never considered themselves "MOST people."
=========
Here's what the minister (in the imaginary story, where vpw got to write the minister's
script) said.
"God now had another rose petal in heaven."
After announcing that was what the minister (in the imaginary story, where vpw got to
write the minister's script) said, here is vpw's own interpretation of that
EXACT SAME SENTENCE:
"God killed that little boy because He wanted another rose petal in heaven."
Do those sentences carry the same meaning?
NOT AT ALL.
The first one claims the child is in heaven with God.
The second one claims the child is in heaven with God BECAUSE GOD KILLED HIM TO BRING HIM THERE.
vpw claimed that this is what the sentence meant, however.
And changed the sentence RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.
And we agreed, and taught it that way.
And SOME of us STILL BELIEVE IT, even when we can read it NOW and see
that vpw changed the meaning from something compassionate to something
Me too, exoinika. Haven't thought about some of this stuff in ages, so it's a little dusty in my brain but it cleans up quickly. At one point I tried to allow for this and that in the tale but it hit me, it's not worth it. Taken on face value it speaks for itself.
There's an odd thread that runs in the storeez in PFAL. Like the one about the drunk who showed up and VPW preached hel l fire 'n' brimstone at him on the evils of drinking, etc. etc. You know the drill. VPW determines after that to never preach a negative sermon again.
Yet right in PFAL is this story, which is both negative and accusatory. And it's as negative as preaching on the evils of drinking to a drunk, but about the evils of fearing.
He drove it home - what killed that little boy??? The FEAR in the HEART of that woman. He accuses the woman of killing her own son because of her own fear. Oh, the tragedy.
Hearing it you're left to have a fear of your own - not to do the same thing. It's fear motivation - to not fear. There's no other way to take it - it's a powerful story told with conviction. Do the right thing or you too will kill those you love by your fear.
Oh, of course if you're OFFENDED - no, that kitty doesn't scratch here. VPW leaves the story hanging. The net result is about the same as telling someone not to think about the word "fear". What do you think about? The word fear.
If VPW had followed the lesson he said he learned so powerfully with the drunk, he'd have taken a completely different approach. Ya think?
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doojable
Has anyone seen the irony in the fact that vp taught that parents should "believe" for their children... and yet he found a way to minimize the pain of abortion?
I won't even get into the pro-life/ choice arguments. That's another issue entirely that I don't want to discuss because the thread will go completely off course.
Think about it... like TheHighway said, for the most part we were young. Our parental instincts had not kicked in. It's a fairly easy thing to say "Just believe. Don't worry about your kids" when you don't have any. Here we were, sometimes "counseling" people much older than we were, telling them to NOT do what comes fairly naturally to most parents.
Regarding abortion, our youth made it equally easy to tell someone, "Well... it's not a soul yet." But in this case, many of us were too young to understand the remorse that comes from that decision down the road.
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waysider
The essence of this thread is not about what the "other" minister said at the boy's funeral, it's about Wierwille telling us that the mother's fear killed the little boy.
In fact, just to demonstrate how citing the words of this minister at the funeral is being used a diversionary tactic, try leaving that part of the story out and read it again.
Kinda like when you read a sentence that says "Bobby and me" and you try to figure out if it should say "Bobby and I " by leaving Bobby out of the sentence.
In other words, what the other minister said at the funeral is irrelevant to the point that Wierwille was making .
The only function it(adding the ministers words) serves is to add color to the incident by introducing yet another doctrinal seed of thought.
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frank123lol
The kid in the story did somthing stupid,What kid doesnt?For that matter who doesnt?
Point"The fear in the heart in the life of that mother killed that child"
Vp was introducing his blind obedience do this and this will happen,dont do this there will be a consequence.
Like my favorite old geezer rock star Bob Seeger off of night moves we were looking for a pie in the sky somthing.
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doojable
How is this any less cruel than:(paraphrased) <_<
I'll tell you what killed that little boy. It was the fear... in the heart and the life... of that mother.
Your children are sick because of you and your believing...
It's only a bunch of cells 'til the first breath...
________ died because he/she walked away from the Word/ didn't obey...
_________ is possessed> (Because he/she didn't agree with me.)
???? <_<
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excathedra
i do appreciate your reply what-the-hey
but i definitely think the "other side of the story" doesn't change what i was saying
as stated here in other posts
do you see that ?
--
okay that preacher with all the kids ? so he's the one who kept his kids from dying, right ?
--
also
so God would NEVER kill that little boy ? only his mommy would
--
ps. i'm REALLY sorry for bringing the 6th grade nun into this
that was not my intent (to distract from my own thread, but it was part of my memory of billy)
i wanted to talk about the fear in the heart and the life of that murdering mother....
.
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waysider
Many years ago, I knew a man who became suddenly ill with a somewhat rare and deadly illness.
This disease requires prompt medical intervention for the person to stand a chance of survival.
Although he was not a "little boy", I think his legacy speaks to this question.
According to what I was told, at that time, his demise was the result of "freaking out" about the severity of the condition and a failure to "believe" for healing.
You know what killed that man?
The attempt to try to change reality by virtue of an insane doctrine called "the law of believing".
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lindyhopper
Yes, thank you very much, WTH, for posting the rest of the story. It hasn't been since I was in and still a Christian that I have read or heard the whole story again.
You know what I now see in this, quite possibly made up, story?
The woman goes to her minister for advise, council.
The minister basically says pray and give them to God. Basically saying believe that God will take care of them.
The very next thing in the story is a year later the kid is dead.
VPW tells the story in a way that assumes the woman ignored her minister's advise and her fear kills her son.
BUT, when the kid is killed the mother is not there. After years of walking him making sure he is safe she is not there. Looks to me that the mother took her minister's advise and gave her son to God that morning at the morning prayer.
Then the minster says God took another rose pedal blah blah blah blah.
I see this as a story about the blissfulness of faith. It certainly isn't about God's protection or God's love. It isn't really even about fear. VPW turned it into that, but really not all that subtly.
The things we fell for. Boggles the mind.
Forget WTH, it's more like WTF.
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cheranne
so...then what about the mothers that do indeed kill their own children like susan smith who drove her two boys
into the lake in her car, or andrea yates who killed her 5 children,and these were not accidents but premeditated
MURDER.
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lindyhopper
Those would indeed be murder.
Against the law, not to mention against nature.
They were obviously pushed to insanity or went off medication or were just plain crazy or something.
Don't know what they "believed," OCW, but I doubt being fearful of themselves killing their own children is what pushed them over the edge.
I suspect VPW or LCM or perhaps some here might say those mothers were PO-ZEST! (fun way to say it, adds a little evil citrus flare)
I still can't believe I missed that in VPW's PFAL story.
Why did VPW die of ocular cancer?
It was the FEAR in the heart of that smoker!
Oh, and the Deeevil was out to get that grrrrreat man-O-God.
What made that grrrreat man-O-God such a pervy sexual predator?
It was the fear in the heart of his mother?
It all makes so much sense now.
Read me some more piffle WTH, I need a bed time story.
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excathedra
great post #33 lindy
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cheranne
I was at a childrens hospital this week and it was packed with parents in the waiting rooms and over at the intensive
care parents and family, friends hoping for their children to get better,to heal or not to suffer anymore,they had a
chapel for all faiths ,a sign in book for prayer or for whatever it is you look to for guidance in earth school,but i know
this if your child is sick and it is a life and death situation you will fall to your knees and pray.
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What The Hey
It is interesting to note how you large sized that type in: "the mothers fear killed the little boy". I assume you large sized that type simply because that is the way VPW allegedly said it (and how we love to use that word lately - allegedly) in PFAL. According to Rascal's response, we allegedly have a normal real mother who was allegedly seeking counsel from this allegedly made up minister by VPW. Of course, VPW allegedly made up the ministers, but the mother from the story is allegedly real! Sorry - can't have it both ways - a "real mother" seeking counsel and speaking with a "made up minister"?
Of course the story of the minister is important, because VPW is contrasting that woman's prayer life (which allegedly is none existant) with the minister's in the story. You can't very well contrast that mother's 'non-existant' prayer life with the minister's prayer life, if we leave him completely out of the story, can we?
People have "assumed" this story is based on the mothers being afraid - of her being terrified that something horrible will happen to her little "Johnny." The story is more about, and it deals with the absence of faith - when we contrast that mothers prayer life with the ministers prayer life in the story.
We have come to assume "fear" always deals with someone being horrified, and being stricken with terror." (Largely due to those Freddie Kruger and Jason movies from Horror-wood I imagine). But biblically speaking, fear does not necessarily mean one is horrified or terrified. Biblically speaking, it (fear) means the absence of faith. One does not necessarily have to be horrified or terrified to have an absence of faith, although an absence of faith may lead one to that end result - hence the reason for that mother's actions in the story.
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rascal
Never the less the story is bull sheet. Wierwille takes a perfectly NORMAL instinct in mothers, and uses that as an excuse to demonize the mother, to blame her for her childs death.
It was a sick disturbing teaching that put the blame on the parents when their children fell ill, or were killed. The very most horrible thing that can happen to someone in this life....and then add unspeakable guilt and shame.
I think it was the beginning of teaching us to turn off our instincts, to ignore that still small voice inside that would have guided us, had we not been trained to ignore it.
Never the less the story is bull sheet. Wierwille takes a perfectly NORMAL instinct in mothers, and uses that as an excuse to demonize the mother, to blame her for her childs death.
It was a sick disturbing teaching that put the blame on the parents when their children fell ill, or were killed. The very most horrible thing that can happen to someone in this life....and then add unspeakable guilt and shame.
I think it was the beginning of teaching us to turn off our instincts, to ignore that still small voice inside that would have guided us, had we not been trained to ignore it.
Never the less the story is bull sheet. Wierwille takes a perfectly NORMAL instinct in mothers, and uses that as an excuse to demonize the mother, to blame her for her childs death.
It was a sick disturbing teaching that put the blame on the parents when their children fell ill, or were killed. The very most horrible thing that can happen to someone in this life....and then add unspeakable guilt and shame.
I think it was the beginning of teaching us to turn off our instincts, to ignore that still small voice inside that would have guided us, had we not been trained to ignore it.
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socks
The way the VPster tells the story, the guy at the breakfast table/prayer sounds like he doesn't give a crap about his kids. "Lord, you worry about them, there's too many for me".
Basically God's a Nanny, to him. Did he shirk other responsibilities?
Come on -------- the story's for rubes. It sounded like it was one of those good ol' boy cracker-barrel sto reez, told while crackin' peanuts and swizzlin' fizz.
This amounts to trying to figure out who is more spiritually raw-ght on - Pepe LePew or the Roadrunner. It's silly. Everyone knows Pepe Lepew is.
Really - the story does have sad overtones and implications, but it's not worth getting in a snot over.
Now if there'd been red drape involved - THEN we've got a stor-ee....
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waysider
WTH
The essence of that teaching is that fear, not necessarily terror or horror, but fear, in any form or degree, will result in negative consequences.
I increased the font size to emphasize that this is the nucleus around which the lesson was built.
The minister's comments at the funeral act as an embellishment, not as a key element.
The idea that "the fear of the mother killed the little boy" can be conveyed without ever mentioning that minister.
Therefore, it is extraneous.
Anyhow, I think what really killed that little boy was seeing how the red drapes clashed with their lavender sofa.
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socks
Absolutely, waysider. The relationship between the drapes and the mother is clear - both instances involved women, and you can see the reason why one succeeedd and the other didn't. In the one, the woman didn't listen to the VPster and went out and got her own drapes, RED ones, whether he 'believed' that such an incredible thing as RED drapes, actual drapes that are RED, was even possible. The hidden message there is -when it comes to wall and window coverings, don't listen to VPW, who may have actually been color blind at that point. Think about it - he had a lot of trouble with his eyes over the years. Anyway - the truth is the truth and if someone doesn't want to believe the accuracy of the word, they're diggin' their own grave, knowwhutamean? It's right there in the class.
In the instance of this woman and her child, I see that there's a STRONG possiblity that this was the same woman, who, although she could believe like the dickens when it came to wall and window coverings, had a real short suit when it came to kids. So really, it balances out, as to God there's no levels of sin or wrongdoing, so her fear couldn't have been any worse on Day 1 with her child than it was on Day 98. Think about it. It's all right there, real ducky and all.
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excathedra
while i appreciate humor to show how ridiculous the story is ....
this can be very heartbreaking to real people
thanks
i hope that made sense
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socks
I can see that excie. It is sad. Embedded in the story is a great loss - and today I can see how insensitive it is to use an example of a mother who, misguided or not, feared so for her child. As all parents certainly do, who love their kids. You want things to work out for them, but they always don't and no matter how far we go to protect them, they go into the world alone.
Not altogether alone, though. There's a serious flaw in the stor-ee, true or not and it took me awhile to see it. While it always rang like an embellished second hand story to me since day 1 I heard it, it wasn't till several years down the line that I realized how utterly wrong it's point is.
Digging into the details is useless, IMO, as the story is just that - a set of statements that may or may not be true. Nothing else is known about the stor-ee other than what's stated.
According to the VPster, sin has no levels, no gradients. Sin is sin. Fear at it's root is sin, in PFAL. Wrong believing, Or "believing in reverse", (an unwieldy definition even in context) it's contradictory to active trust in God.
That being the case, there's no accumulative effect of "fearing" day after day. Fear is fear. Big fear, little fear, not so. There's no big sin, little sin, in PFAL.
If fear is the cause of the death, there was as much potential on Day 1 of Fear Factor as there was on Day 999.
Which begs the question, why didn't it happen on Day 1. Or Day 12?
I might say well, in Storeeville, constant obsession over something could produce a pattern of action that would build an environment friendly to a bad or negative result. But that's not the point being made - VPW messed up his own stor-ee. The concept of fear being the impetus, the cause, the root of what happened would have to mean that the environment was as conducive to what happened on any day.
This is of course what VPW used to celebrate the Ozzie Nelson-minister guy. He didn't pray endlessly to get the "positive result" of his prayer. He munched it off and chowed down into his bacon and biscuits. Guys in VPW's world are like that. No worryin' fer me, dernit! No time for it! Things to do!
It's obvious in the storee - sometimes terrible things happen to people. No one deserves to die like that. Fear could certainly make a person do something ill advised, but THAT'S NOT IN THE STOREE, at all. Fear in the story is the "believing" in the heart of that Mom.
But it's still a stupid story. In the way I try to shake off a bad dream when I wake up, it needs shaking off.
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excathedra
thank you socks
i think i'm a bit too emotional tonight
forgive me
oops i should be on that other thread....
love,
e
--
also i appreciated your insight in both posts about the minister and his kids
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WordWolf
Exodus 18:21
Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
Psalm 66:16
Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what he hath done for my soul.
Ecclesiastes 8:12
Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Acts 13:16
Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
1 Peter 2:17
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Psalm 19:9
The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Psalm 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Proverbs 14:26
In the fear of the LORD is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.
Proverbs 14:27
The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
Acts 9:31
Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
========
Thank you for playing. have a nice day. Jesus loves you.
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WordWolf
Thanks for reminding me that vpw was so callous, he could turn compassion into something
disgusting.
Let's say YOU were the minister, and you knew a mother, and a child, and had watched
the child grow up. You weren't there 24/7 in the child's life, but you were aware as events
unfolded, and you both got to know each other as people, and interacted regularly,
even if it was only a moment here and there.
Then, one day, you learn this child was struck dead by a vehicle.
Do you agree to deliver the sermon at this child's funeral?
If you have a heart like a normal human you do.
When you do that sermon, do you attempt to say something comforting to the parents,
the rest of the family, the friends?
If you have a heart like a normal human you do.
(Some of us DIDN'T have a heart like a normal human- and used such situations
to teach the hurt, mourning people "The Truth Of The Word".
We know better now, and we're very sorry.)
So, when you do that sermon, and you say something meant to comfort the family,
you might be less than 100% perfect on doctrine.
However, if you're 100% perfect on compassion, nobody in the room is going to care.
Thus, most people wouldn't greatly object to something like
"Your child's suffering has ended. He has entered into the personal presence of God
Almighty. Jesus Himself has dried his tears, and shown him how to smile again.
Now, he can play whenever he wants, and the loving presence of God is before
him always. Someday you will be reunited with your child, and then, after Jesus
has wiped away your tears, you can share with him all the things you've done
since then, and he can share with you all the things he has done since then."
(Yes, I just came up with that now. I asked my heart what I would say if I
believed the standard doctrine, and was in the minister's position.)
Somewhere in there, the minister might indeed say something like
"Now your precious rose petal is in heaven, with the Almighty God."
MOST people, even those who believe in "soul sleep" and so on, would basically
see this as compassionate, and decide to "get over themselves" rather than
issue a minority opinion at the funeral. MOST people have a sense of perspective,
and a sense of tact.
As we all know, people in twi never considered themselves "MOST people."
=========
Here's what the minister (in the imaginary story, where vpw got to write the minister's
script) said.
"God now had another rose petal in heaven."
After announcing that was what the minister (in the imaginary story, where vpw got to
write the minister's script) said, here is vpw's own interpretation of that
EXACT SAME SENTENCE:
"God killed that little boy because He wanted another rose petal in heaven."
Do those sentences carry the same meaning?
NOT AT ALL.
The first one claims the child is in heaven with God.
The second one claims the child is in heaven with God BECAUSE GOD KILLED HIM TO BRING HIM THERE.
vpw claimed that this is what the sentence meant, however.
And changed the sentence RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.
And we agreed, and taught it that way.
And SOME of us STILL BELIEVE IT, even when we can read it NOW and see
that vpw changed the meaning from something compassionate to something
vile and offensive.
Oh, my God, when are we going to learn something?
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socks
Me too, exoinika. Haven't thought about some of this stuff in ages, so it's a little dusty in my brain but it cleans up quickly. At one point I tried to allow for this and that in the tale but it hit me, it's not worth it. Taken on face value it speaks for itself.
There's an odd thread that runs in the storeez in PFAL. Like the one about the drunk who showed up and VPW preached hel l fire 'n' brimstone at him on the evils of drinking, etc. etc. You know the drill. VPW determines after that to never preach a negative sermon again.
Yet right in PFAL is this story, which is both negative and accusatory. And it's as negative as preaching on the evils of drinking to a drunk, but about the evils of fearing.
He drove it home - what killed that little boy??? The FEAR in the HEART of that woman. He accuses the woman of killing her own son because of her own fear. Oh, the tragedy.
Hearing it you're left to have a fear of your own - not to do the same thing. It's fear motivation - to not fear. There's no other way to take it - it's a powerful story told with conviction. Do the right thing or you too will kill those you love by your fear.
Oh, of course if you're OFFENDED - no, that kitty doesn't scratch here. VPW leaves the story hanging. The net result is about the same as telling someone not to think about the word "fear". What do you think about? The word fear.
If VPW had followed the lesson he said he learned so powerfully with the drunk, he'd have taken a completely different approach. Ya think?
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Ham
I have seen people do some pretty foolhardy crap while they ignored fear.
From what I've read, practically the whole lead experience seems to me to have been an exercise in foolhardiness..
Have to hitchike there.. no money, except for an emergency fiver or so that you'd BETTER come back with..
get hurt? Lose a few toes? Well.. it had to because of FEAR.. pretty much absolved the people supposedly running the thing from responsibility..
Get gored at rodeo school? Same as above.
I think the "lack of fear" teaching wasn't primarily about lack of fear.. maybe it was to find out who could REALLY be aggressive..
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excathedra
wordwolf and socks, thank you so much for your thoughts about what loving ministers might preach.
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