You can never be a wet blanket. However, those are big ten dollar words largely labeled by people who do not believe the Bible is authored by God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Bless you!
Didn't mean to throw around $10 words, just trying to throw some light on a complex subject. To me, I try and remember the Bible is made up of a lot of different documents that were written at different times in history and influenced by various cultures. And their world outlooks were vastly different from ours. For instance, all of those documents (books of the Bible) were written when people believed the world was flat.
Just imagine that maybe there are very plausible reasons to value those documents instead of labeling them the "The Word of God." Guess I have been very curious about where that idea came from. I know VPW got sold on it by Rosalind Rinker. When you check into who she was, you find she was a Christian fundamentalist. Fundamentalism, which VP denied he was into, has a basic tenant that the Bible is inerrant, and that just means without a mistake or error. That is a widely disputed claim. THere are sound and respectable reasons for challenging that claim, but it takes more than posts here at GSC to get into it. But for those interested, the info is easily accessible at the library, books for sale at Amazon etc. and various sites all over the Internet...
I just think we need to be careful about assuming that just because these documents were included in between those 2 covers this makes them "perfect." The people who decided which books to include had certain reasons, some of which were political. Some of those documents were assumed to be written by Paul but recent discoveries show they weren't.
As far as translations and versions go, if a person says the Bible is the Word of God, I usually ask which version or translation is he or she referring to? If each word is supposed to be perfect, we have a problem right off the bat when we translate from one language (i.e. Greek) into English or Latin or Spanish. The translator has to make subjective decisions about which word to use. (Hence, those literal translations according to usage that are referred to by another poster here.)
Anyhow, this post is too long already. I say, life is more fun and interesting doing other things than wrangling about these issues which take a lot of study by others trained more than me. I just have a lot of questions and not a lot of answers. I'm just an amatuer anyhow...
You're right. It was getting too long. I am far from being an expert but was surprised at your amateur reference. Granted, there is much background to the phrase, the Bible being the revealed Word and Will of God. Regardless of numerous writings on the subject, it boils down to the fact if one believes it is or isn't. My point was that the additional nomenclature in this field of study was usually meant to discourage, dilute or distract for the central meaning or significant, that God authored the Bible to communicate the salvation of man to be through his son, Jesus Christ. IMO and in my life, it has been revealed to me that it is. All the other ancillary items which are titled topics posted throughout this site are just stuff and to paraphase a familiar saying, all this stuff comes and goes, but it is the Word of God which lives and abides forever.
... God authored the Bible to communicate the salvation of man to be through his son, Jesus Christ. IMO and in my life, it has been revealed to me that it is. .... all this stuff comes and goes, but it is the Word of God which lives and abides forever.
... even accepting your "it is the Word of God" premise
Did the time serving twi enhance those hours studying the Bible? Or did it direct one's thinking down a certain path that furthered their ends ... which included "believing to bring material abundance to the ministry ...? In other words, it was not one's own study if the doctrine was determined by TWI. It was research with a predetermined outcome, with pressure applied by twi to ensure no one wandered off doctrinally on their own.
It seems important to recognize the overriding influence that made us so "like minded" was TWI, not God.
So to pretend their is nothing to regret seems to be denial of reality, and not helpful in moving on to something more wholesome, though it is a way of dealing with the harshness of some of the ugly "truth".
I guess as far as regrets, I feel like they wouldn't do me much good at this juncture. Having just celebrated another birthday, I want to make the best of whatever time God leaves me on this earth. If I do have regrets, it's mostly concerning the false doctrines I learned that I can't shake out of my mind.
1996: "If you leave the household of God, whether by your own volition or we decide you are no longer worthy of the privilege, AT THAT MOMENT the spirit within you dies. And shortly thereafter, your physical body shall die also, because it is impossible to exist outside the Household."
Just about every moment from 1973-1996, my understanding was that TWI was the successor to the first century church, the only organization that knew the truth and accuracy of God's wonderful matchless word, rightly dividing it according to usage, and, after a while, the only organization holding forth that word in the exceedingly great and glorious light of the Present Truth.
I regret very deeply listening to the harmful, vicious lies about how to raise your children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord by beating the crap out of them and putting them down at every opportunity. I regret not smacking down a few people who promoted this falsehood, especially the ones who personally applied it to my son.
I DO NOT regret what truth I learned.
I DO NOT regret the time I spent in FLO because that's where I met Mr. Garden.
I DO NOT regret do my best to love God for 23 years of my life.
I DO NOT regret meeting the many wonderful, kind, loving people I knew at that time.
But then again, I don't think looking back with regrets would do me much good at this point. "One day at a time, Lord Jesus....."
WG, I dig what you said, and stand next to you on that stuff.
I don't regret and what good would it do?
Should I regret that I had 16 really fun and wonderful years with an amazing man? If I had left twi I would not have had those years and our second daughter; how can I regret staying?
I don't regret the stuff I was afforded to see and learn and do in twi.
I don't regret the things I learned NOT to do; they are applicable today.
I don't regret the people I met who enriched my life, added something to it's emotional value or made me think, what's bad about that?
This life unfolds as it does until it doesn't.
Without twi I wouldn't be hanging out here with some strange amazing funny people.
No doubt we met some good people .. and our experiences with them are real
But though I am not a counsellor ... it seems I should not emphasize those "ancillary" positives over the overriding abuses ...
that would be like making excuses for the abuser ... a classic victim problem?
We were lied to and tricked ... and I got out, while salvaging some memories of "good times", the real thing is I weas mostly a deceived victim ... and now I have moved on, which is great. I hope all have left the junk behind.
To say we have no regrets is like saying it was great being in that auto accident, because those guys in the other cars were real nifty and we had good times on our way to the hospital.
TWI was not good ... like many things in life ... if we overcame .. fine ... it was not the first century church gone slightly awry ... it was a con game, with perhaps some sincere moments from some of those "living in the dream" ... the "meals with the man of God sharing eternal truth in the BRC basement" dreams are groovy ... not what it really was.
I guess I feel the way I feel at last in part because I was never around VPW or really LCM on a personal level. Other than a thankfully brief stint in FWC and two years in FLO, I was just Susie Peon Believer. I guess I could spend my remaining few years in grief and regret, bemoaning 23 wasted years from age 28 to age 51, but ya know, regret won't bring back a single minute. Here's a little 4 line poem from the Rubiyyat of Omar Khayham:
"The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on.
I guess I feel the way I feel at last in part because I was never around VPW or really LCM on a personal level. Other than a thankfully brief stint in FWC and two years in FLO, I was just Susie Peon Believer. I guess I could spend my remaining few years in grief and regret, bemoaning 23 wasted years from age 28 to age 51, but ya know, regret won't bring back a single minute. Here's a little 4 line poem from the Rubiyyat of Omar Khayham:
"The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on.
Nor all your tears shall lure it back
To cancel half a line;
Nor all your tears wipe out a word of it."
WG
Hi there, WG
I'm trying to understand something here.
Were you Susie Peon Believer or were youBarbara Susie Peon Believer?
HeeHeeHee!
Just funnin' with ya.
I'm sure nobody here has any idea what the heck that's all about.
Regrets?Ive had a few So goes the song... For the most part it has been a good ride
The roughest?From 97 till 2001 In 97 I sold my house and rented What grief I took from self,workers realitives ect. Point blank no one NO ONE can tell you what to do Screw you twi for even doing
such a thing to people.
Ps I left said way int cult "Gods ministry" in 2001 No regrets since then!!
You all here are great I love to hear you Carry on!
Regrets?Ive had a few So goes the song... For the most part it has been a good ride
The roughest?From 97 till 2001 In 97 I sold my house and rented What grief I took from self,workers realitives ect. Point blank no one NO ONE can tell you what to do Screw you twi for even doing
such a thing to people.
Ps I left said way int cult "Gods ministry" in 2001 No regrets since then!!
You all here are great I love to hear you Carry on!
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penworks
Didn't mean to throw around $10 words, just trying to throw some light on a complex subject. To me, I try and remember the Bible is made up of a lot of different documents that were written at different times in history and influenced by various cultures. And their world outlooks were vastly different from ours. For instance, all of those documents (books of the Bible) were written when people believed the world was flat.
Just imagine that maybe there are very plausible reasons to value those documents instead of labeling them the "The Word of God." Guess I have been very curious about where that idea came from. I know VPW got sold on it by Rosalind Rinker. When you check into who she was, you find she was a Christian fundamentalist. Fundamentalism, which VP denied he was into, has a basic tenant that the Bible is inerrant, and that just means without a mistake or error. That is a widely disputed claim. THere are sound and respectable reasons for challenging that claim, but it takes more than posts here at GSC to get into it. But for those interested, the info is easily accessible at the library, books for sale at Amazon etc. and various sites all over the Internet...
I just think we need to be careful about assuming that just because these documents were included in between those 2 covers this makes them "perfect." The people who decided which books to include had certain reasons, some of which were political. Some of those documents were assumed to be written by Paul but recent discoveries show they weren't.
As far as translations and versions go, if a person says the Bible is the Word of God, I usually ask which version or translation is he or she referring to? If each word is supposed to be perfect, we have a problem right off the bat when we translate from one language (i.e. Greek) into English or Latin or Spanish. The translator has to make subjective decisions about which word to use. (Hence, those literal translations according to usage that are referred to by another poster here.)
Anyhow, this post is too long already. I say, life is more fun and interesting doing other things than wrangling about these issues which take a lot of study by others trained more than me. I just have a lot of questions and not a lot of answers. I'm just an amatuer anyhow...
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So_Cal1
You're right. It was getting too long. I am far from being an expert but was surprised at your amateur reference. Granted, there is much background to the phrase, the Bible being the revealed Word and Will of God. Regardless of numerous writings on the subject, it boils down to the fact if one believes it is or isn't. My point was that the additional nomenclature in this field of study was usually meant to discourage, dilute or distract for the central meaning or significant, that God authored the Bible to communicate the salvation of man to be through his son, Jesus Christ. IMO and in my life, it has been revealed to me that it is. All the other ancillary items which are titled topics posted throughout this site are just stuff and to paraphase a familiar saying, all this stuff comes and goes, but it is the Word of God which lives and abides forever.
Sincerely. :)
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rhino
... even accepting your "it is the Word of God" premise
Did the time serving twi enhance those hours studying the Bible? Or did it direct one's thinking down a certain path that furthered their ends ... which included "believing to bring material abundance to the ministry ...? In other words, it was not one's own study if the doctrine was determined by TWI. It was research with a predetermined outcome, with pressure applied by twi to ensure no one wandered off doctrinally on their own.
It seems important to recognize the overriding influence that made us so "like minded" was TWI, not God.
So to pretend their is nothing to regret seems to be denial of reality, and not helpful in moving on to something more wholesome, though it is a way of dealing with the harshness of some of the ugly "truth".
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Imagine
I have regrets about...
Hearing Craig's voice when ever scripture was read which made me not enjoy the Bible for about 10 years
I have requests about
Being taught the private interpretation of one man's egotistic opinions
I have requests about
Feeling like God would never speak to me again because I was a spiritual reject
I have regrets about
Not being allowed to question what was taught
I have regrets about
Spending many years in depression from all the confusion that The Way caused
I have regrets about
Trying to squeeze God into a formulaic box of principles instead getting to know Him in His manifold variety
I have many, many regrets about what and how I was taught the Bible in The Way
BUT I do not regret the scripture I learned and the time I spent searching for God.
Thank you Ex for sharing my joy. It's taken a loooong time to experience anything like joy again!
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waysider
Treat everybody the way you would want them to treat you.
Without that much, it's really just another Sunday School lesson.
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jeast
Treat everybody the way you would want them to treat you.
Without that much, it's really just another Sunday School lesson. waysider.
Now that is something this simple minded guy can understand.
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Watered Garden
I guess as far as regrets, I feel like they wouldn't do me much good at this juncture. Having just celebrated another birthday, I want to make the best of whatever time God leaves me on this earth. If I do have regrets, it's mostly concerning the false doctrines I learned that I can't shake out of my mind.
1996: "If you leave the household of God, whether by your own volition or we decide you are no longer worthy of the privilege, AT THAT MOMENT the spirit within you dies. And shortly thereafter, your physical body shall die also, because it is impossible to exist outside the Household."
Just about every moment from 1973-1996, my understanding was that TWI was the successor to the first century church, the only organization that knew the truth and accuracy of God's wonderful matchless word, rightly dividing it according to usage, and, after a while, the only organization holding forth that word in the exceedingly great and glorious light of the Present Truth.
I regret very deeply listening to the harmful, vicious lies about how to raise your children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord by beating the crap out of them and putting them down at every opportunity. I regret not smacking down a few people who promoted this falsehood, especially the ones who personally applied it to my son.
I DO NOT regret what truth I learned.
I DO NOT regret the time I spent in FLO because that's where I met Mr. Garden.
I DO NOT regret do my best to love God for 23 years of my life.
I DO NOT regret meeting the many wonderful, kind, loving people I knew at that time.
But then again, I don't think looking back with regrets would do me much good at this point. "One day at a time, Lord Jesus....."
WG
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Shellon
WG, I dig what you said, and stand next to you on that stuff.
I don't regret and what good would it do?
Should I regret that I had 16 really fun and wonderful years with an amazing man? If I had left twi I would not have had those years and our second daughter; how can I regret staying?
I don't regret the stuff I was afforded to see and learn and do in twi.
I don't regret the things I learned NOT to do; they are applicable today.
I don't regret the people I met who enriched my life, added something to it's emotional value or made me think, what's bad about that?
This life unfolds as it does until it doesn't.
Without twi I wouldn't be hanging out here with some strange amazing funny people.
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excathedra
i don't regret that i regret a lot of it
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rhino
No doubt we met some good people .. and our experiences with them are real
But though I am not a counsellor ... it seems I should not emphasize those "ancillary" positives over the overriding abuses ...
that would be like making excuses for the abuser ... a classic victim problem?
We were lied to and tricked ... and I got out, while salvaging some memories of "good times", the real thing is I weas mostly a deceived victim ... and now I have moved on, which is great. I hope all have left the junk behind.
To say we have no regrets is like saying it was great being in that auto accident, because those guys in the other cars were real nifty and we had good times on our way to the hospital.
TWI was not good ... like many things in life ... if we overcame .. fine ... it was not the first century church gone slightly awry ... it was a con game, with perhaps some sincere moments from some of those "living in the dream" ... the "meals with the man of God sharing eternal truth in the BRC basement" dreams are groovy ... not what it really was.
I think the "no regret" line is delusional ...
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Watered Garden
I guess I feel the way I feel at last in part because I was never around VPW or really LCM on a personal level. Other than a thankfully brief stint in FWC and two years in FLO, I was just Susie Peon Believer. I guess I could spend my remaining few years in grief and regret, bemoaning 23 wasted years from age 28 to age 51, but ya know, regret won't bring back a single minute. Here's a little 4 line poem from the Rubiyyat of Omar Khayham:
"The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on.
Nor all your tears shall lure it back
To cancel half a line;
Nor all your tears wipe out a word of it."
WG
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waysider
Hi there, WG
I'm trying to understand something here.
Were you Susie Peon Believer or were you Barbara Susie Peon Believer?
HeeHeeHee!
Just funnin' with ya.
I'm sure nobody here has any idea what the heck that's all about.
Now say "Good Night", Short Stuff!!
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Watered Garden
I am NOT short; I am vertically challenged!
WG
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waysider
Oh, well PARDON me!!!!
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frank123lol
Regrets?Ive had a few So goes the song... For the most part it has been a good ride
The roughest?From 97 till 2001 In 97 I sold my house and rented What grief I took from self,workers realitives ect. Point blank no one NO ONE can tell you what to do Screw you twi for even doing
such a thing to people.
Ps I left said way int cult "Gods ministry" in 2001 No regrets since then!!
You all here are great I love to hear you Carry on!
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frank123lol
Regrets?Ive had a few So goes the song... For the most part it has been a good ride
The roughest?From 97 till 2001 In 97 I sold my house and rented What grief I took from self,workers realitives ect. Point blank no one NO ONE can tell you what to do Screw you twi for even doing
such a thing to people.
Ps I left said way int cult "Gods ministry" in 2001 No regrets since then!!
You all here are great I love to hear you Carry on!
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Imagine
I don't regret the wonderful hymns I learned.
I don't regret the supernatural power of God I experienced in miraculous events on the WOW field and at other times.
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