I think any misconception we can uncover here helps everyone, not just those who are still active in cults or offshoots.
Makes me think of how grateful I am that I GOT OUT.
Just spoke to a few friends I tried to help out when I left years ago, they didn't see it then.
They just left twi this week. Sometimes it takes time.
Words are powerful and VP definately and subtily made it clear that he was the MOG for this day and age.
Put two and two together and you have the higher power. What he said was right, governmental rule and their laws went out the window.
So that left you with his twisted view, and we were programmed to listen.
Scary, when you think of it now.
He had us all duped.
You helped me understand something I didn't see before.
I think one big mistake was that we all looked to VP himself as "the higher power". There was no "higher powerS" He was a dictator.
Any group that lets one man rule with total authority is in for trouble.
There has to be "a multitude of councelors" in any "higher powers" situation or you don't have anything close to what the Word is saying. There has to be a way to "put in check" a loose cannon. VP was more than that, he was well we all know now what he was.
Polar Bear--higher powers, funny we we didn't see that while in TWI and that tyrannical pyramid leadership structure seemed so great--because we believed in some type of 'magic man' who had all the answers straight from Heaven.
Mstar--your description of how leadership in regular churches is structured is what I saw after we left. Bullies and tyrants have a much harder time getting a foot hold. Heck, the average 60 year old church member in a denomination wouldn't put up with the crap we lived with daily even for a minute--they retain their independence.
I was in my forties and out of TWI before I saw how regular churches worked. No wonder we were so taught to despise denominational Christianity--we might learn something about leadership structure and start expecting reasonable change.
I also was shocked to know that members could have significent differences from their denomination and no one bothered them about it. There was an elderly man that would not attend on a Sunday when the woman pastor preached, because he didn't believe in women preaching. Yet he was still an elder, people understood his position and let it go.
I too wonder if TWI or the splinter groups have moved away from the pyamid magic mog structure. I hear from an innie about once a year, and they have never mentioned any real changes in TWI, even though they have encouraged us to return because it is so 'sweet' now.
Words are powerful and VP definately and subtily made it clear that he was the MOG for this day and age.
Put two and two together and you have the higher power. What he said was right, governmental rule and their laws went out the window.
So that left you with his twisted view, and we were programmed to listen.
Scary, when you think of it now.
He had us all duped.
You helped me understand something I didn't see before.
I think one big mistake was that we all looked to VP himself as "the higher power". There was no "higher powerS" He was a dictator.
Any group that lets one man rule with total authority is in for trouble.
There has to be "a multitude of councelors" in any "higher powers" situation or you don't have anything close to what the Word is saying. There has to be a way to "put in check" a loose cannon. VP was more than that, he was well we all know now what he was.
I suppose VP had his gang of higher powers ... my point was more that there are government authorities to go to, if these nuts get too far out of line. I don't know what correct Bible doctrine is ... I suppose in the old testament you could find some lone MOGs ...
But The Way Tree was about chain of command ... and obedience to the leaders all the way to the bottom ... this kept the servants/soldiers in line. If you wanted to advance or even avoid persecution, you had to submit, and pressure others to fall in line.
And then of course VP became untouchable ... because HE had the rev from Gawd ... snow on the pumps direct promise. "Minor indiscretions" had to be overlooked ... at least they were minor compared to his heavy duty of saving the whole world.
Victims especially needed to be removed from that environment. I sure hope your friends were not subjected to the same intimidations and threats ... I just can't imagine current TWI being as cold as VP lcm days, though their doctrines are probably no better.
I always thought that if Romans 13 said what TWI said it did that we should have sent LCM over to take care of Sadaam when the first Gulf War happened !
Apparently even the professional counselors at TWI were in the cult ... and it seems they too were compliant to VP's structure, and I just don't believe all possible recourse or action was taken ...
There are shelters for women ... was there no place to take these women ... was there no way to introduce laws, bylaws, oversight?
I wonder what checks and balances ... or bylaws .. are in place now at TWI, after lcm's demise? Tonight's Larry King should be interesting ... how does the abuse in these other cults get exposed?
Interesting you brought up bylaws. As a legal entity, TWI had to file articles of incorporation and have a set of bylaws.
Anyway, whatever they had written, it was probably designed more to protect the trustees than to deal with illegal or immoral activity, IMO. But it would still be interesting reading ... maybe a good document to have on file at GSC.
I always thought that if Romans 13 said what TWI said it did that we should have sent LCM over to take care of Sadaam when the first Gulf War happened !
Good plan ... the OT MOG's seemed to do battle rather well at times.
Well that is interesting ... I wonder if those are a matter of public record then.
They should be with the SOS of Ohio. I think it's ironic that on the TWI web site there is no posted code-of-conduct. Of course we have seen what happens when a group does not adhere to its code of conduct.
2 Cor 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: 4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; 9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
They forgot the stuff highlighted in blue and concentrated far too much on the stuff in red.
Where some fault or error has been noted there is this:
Standard for ordinary believers:
Mt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Standard for church leaders:
1 Tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
Not much difference, is there? Confrontation by 2 or 3, then open confrontation in the church. It's a command, to expose sinful church leaders.
It should have been "available" that two or three believers should have been able to confront alleged perps and secure some sort of answer.
If that didn't work, it should then have been "available" for the sins of the perp to be brought before the whole church.
In these sex cases, DWBH and the psych that he mentions on his thread should have been able to confront VPW and LCM about their sexual misconduct. It should have been investigated.
If not investigated, it should have been possible for DWBH and others to bring it before the whole church.
Should? Yes. Possible? Not on your life. Those leaders did not "submit" themselves in love to other believers. Their idea of submitting was (as LCM once said), to submit to the needs of the whole body by teaching them (at SNS and Corps nights).
It still hasn't been brought before the church, ie, the people remaining in TWI. It has never honestly been addressed there. Those in control of the church still control (mostly) the means of making it known to the church. (Happily, they do not control the Internet!)
If criminal behavior is dealt withwithin the church there may be no need to involve civil authorities (but then again, there may be need, think for example of the abuse by MN of children in Alaska).
If the church abdicates its responsibilities in the area of dealing with its leaders, it only has itself to blame if people look to the civil authorities for remedy. They haven't acted without partiality when it comes to dealing with the matters brought before them.
And as regards the "higher powers", the leader is to submit to the church as regards discipline, from the Bible extracts above, isn't that so? So who is the higher power? The church as a whole. Not the man on the pedestal, the claimed mouthpiece for God.
Who is the head of the church, the real higher power? What's his name, begins with J, I think...
Where some fault or error has been noted there is this:
Standard for ordinary believers:
Mt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Standard for church leaders:
1 Tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
Not much difference, is there? Confrontation by 2 or 3, then open confrontation in the church. It's a command, to expose sinful church leaders.
It should have been "available" that two or three believers should have been able to confront alleged perps and secure some sort of answer.
If that didn't work, it should then have been "available" for the sins of the perp to be brought before the whole church.
In these sex cases, DWBH and the psych that he mentions on his thread should have been able to confront VPW and LCM about their sexual misconduct. It should have been investigated.
If not investigated, it should have been possible for DWBH and others to bring it before the whole church.
Should? Yes. Possible? Not on your life. Those leaders did not "submit" themselves in love to other believers. Their idea of submitting was (as LCM once said), to submit to the needs of the whole body by teaching them (at SNS and Corps nights).
Thanks for these points Twinky.
I don't know the actual dynamics ... or who could have done better. But it seems many at HQ even, were still in the dark on these issues for all those years, even when several more witnesses were available and I think willing, the issue was not presented to a greater body.
As I said in the deleted thread I think, there were many "prophets" hidden in a research cave or joyful noise cave, that had not bowed their knee to VP. I see taking it to others at HQ or to many others as possible, though difficult and career ending.
For whatever reason it seems to me, a willful decision was made to not proceed with communicating to the greater body. From some witnesses, it seems there WERE people that were ready to come forward.
My belief is that saving the ministry seemed more important ... that decision proceeded from cult like beliefs as well as the oppression that was HQ.
There were several men that had the chance ... vp managed to keep his sex machine functioning ... it seems the pressures put those that would have acted into a sort of cognitive dissonance ... a surreal state of denial. (no charge for this opinion) Proceeding to confront may well have meant the end of The Way ... the enormity of the situation became overwhelming.
Rebuke before all ... that would have made for an interesting lunch "sharing" ... ha I wonder ... what if I had stood up at one of the Corps weeks, and asked if adultery was vp approved. Specifically at one week where I remember the junior corps was bragging they had basically done every kind of sex, and the corps crowd all laughed and applauded ... as I recall. I imagine it was a proud moment to VP ... sitting up on stage.
Mutually agreed to adultery was bad enough, but the reality was of course much worse.
Billy Graham was right. The higher powers of Romans 13 are NOT the leaders in the church....they are the civil leaders in government. VPW always used the example of Hitler as the reason this section couldn't refer to government leaders ... but the powers that be that are ordained of God ARE a terror to good works. It took several years of my being out of TWI to see the logic in this section ...
Suppose I was Christian living in Poland after the Nazi invasion. Would I be obliged to turn in my neighbor who I knew was hiding Jews in her home? If I were a Hutu living in Rwanda during the 1994 genocide, would I be bound by my faith to show government troops, who were rounding up Tutzis for extermination, where Tutzis were hiding?
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polar bear
Rhino-Thanks, great thread.
I think any misconception we can uncover here helps everyone, not just those who are still active in cults or offshoots.
Makes me think of how grateful I am that I GOT OUT.
Just spoke to a few friends I tried to help out when I left years ago, they didn't see it then.
They just left twi this week. Sometimes it takes time.
Words are powerful and VP definately and subtily made it clear that he was the MOG for this day and age.
Put two and two together and you have the higher power. What he said was right, governmental rule and their laws went out the window.
So that left you with his twisted view, and we were programmed to listen.
Scary, when you think of it now.
He had us all duped.
You helped me understand something I didn't see before.
I think one big mistake was that we all looked to VP himself as "the higher power". There was no "higher powerS" He was a dictator.
Any group that lets one man rule with total authority is in for trouble.
There has to be "a multitude of councelors" in any "higher powers" situation or you don't have anything close to what the Word is saying. There has to be a way to "put in check" a loose cannon. VP was more than that, he was well we all know now what he was.
Anyhow, thanks for that Rhino.
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Bramble
There have been some great points in this thread.
Polar Bear--higher powers, funny we we didn't see that while in TWI and that tyrannical pyramid leadership structure seemed so great--because we believed in some type of 'magic man' who had all the answers straight from Heaven.
Mstar--your description of how leadership in regular churches is structured is what I saw after we left. Bullies and tyrants have a much harder time getting a foot hold. Heck, the average 60 year old church member in a denomination wouldn't put up with the crap we lived with daily even for a minute--they retain their independence.
I was in my forties and out of TWI before I saw how regular churches worked. No wonder we were so taught to despise denominational Christianity--we might learn something about leadership structure and start expecting reasonable change.
I also was shocked to know that members could have significent differences from their denomination and no one bothered them about it. There was an elderly man that would not attend on a Sunday when the woman pastor preached, because he didn't believe in women preaching. Yet he was still an elder, people understood his position and let it go.
I too wonder if TWI or the splinter groups have moved away from the pyamid magic mog structure. I hear from an innie about once a year, and they have never mentioned any real changes in TWI, even though they have encouraged us to return because it is so 'sweet' now.
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rhino
I suppose VP had his gang of higher powers ... my point was more that there are government authorities to go to, if these nuts get too far out of line. I don't know what correct Bible doctrine is ... I suppose in the old testament you could find some lone MOGs ...
But The Way Tree was about chain of command ... and obedience to the leaders all the way to the bottom ... this kept the servants/soldiers in line. If you wanted to advance or even avoid persecution, you had to submit, and pressure others to fall in line.
And then of course VP became untouchable ... because HE had the rev from Gawd ... snow on the pumps direct promise. "Minor indiscretions" had to be overlooked ... at least they were minor compared to his heavy duty of saving the whole world.
Victims especially needed to be removed from that environment. I sure hope your friends were not subjected to the same intimidations and threats ... I just can't imagine current TWI being as cold as VP lcm days, though their doctrines are probably no better.
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excathedra
oh i just found this thread. lots of good stuff
don't want to say too much for fear i destroy it. lol
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anotherDan
uh huh..... and Paw.... you want to shut Rhino down?
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WordWolf
Not that it's on topic at all, but I think Paw's made it obvious that he wants posters to
post fairly respectfully to each other, and would prefer to not shut ANYONE down,
but have them post at their own discretion.
(That's pretty much what he's always said.)
That having been said, how about we get back to the topic and leave the personal
stuff out?
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anotherDan
All right; I withdraw my comment.
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waterbuffalo
LOL! Great point, waysider.
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excathedra
leaving personal stuff out really should go more than one way
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TOMMYZ
I always thought that if Romans 13 said what TWI said it did that we should have sent LCM over to take care of Sadaam when the first Gulf War happened !
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Tzaia
Interesting you brought up bylaws. As a legal entity, TWI had to file articles of incorporation and have a set of bylaws.
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rhino
Well that is interesting ... I wonder if those are a matter of public record then.
Perhaps the officers were only the trustees ... but I found this ...
Anyway, whatever they had written, it was probably designed more to protect the trustees than to deal with illegal or immoral activity, IMO. But it would still be interesting reading ... maybe a good document to have on file at GSC.
Good plan ... the OT MOG's seemed to do battle rather well at times.
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Tzaia
They should be with the SOS of Ohio. I think it's ironic that on the TWI web site there is no posted code-of-conduct. Of course we have seen what happens when a group does not adhere to its code of conduct.
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Twinky
2 Cor 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: 4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; 9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
They forgot the stuff highlighted in blue and concentrated far too much on the stuff in red.
Where some fault or error has been noted there is this:
Standard for ordinary believers:
Mt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Standard for church leaders:
1 Tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
Not much difference, is there? Confrontation by 2 or 3, then open confrontation in the church. It's a command, to expose sinful church leaders.
It should have been "available" that two or three believers should have been able to confront alleged perps and secure some sort of answer.
If that didn't work, it should then have been "available" for the sins of the perp to be brought before the whole church.
In these sex cases, DWBH and the psych that he mentions on his thread should have been able to confront VPW and LCM about their sexual misconduct. It should have been investigated.
If not investigated, it should have been possible for DWBH and others to bring it before the whole church.
Should? Yes. Possible? Not on your life. Those leaders did not "submit" themselves in love to other believers. Their idea of submitting was (as LCM once said), to submit to the needs of the whole body by teaching them (at SNS and Corps nights).
It still hasn't been brought before the church, ie, the people remaining in TWI. It has never honestly been addressed there. Those in control of the church still control (mostly) the means of making it known to the church. (Happily, they do not control the Internet!)
If criminal behavior is dealt with within the church there may be no need to involve civil authorities (but then again, there may be need, think for example of the abuse by MN of children in Alaska).
If the church abdicates its responsibilities in the area of dealing with its leaders, it only has itself to blame if people look to the civil authorities for remedy. They haven't acted without partiality when it comes to dealing with the matters brought before them.
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Twinky
And as regards the "higher powers", the leader is to submit to the church as regards discipline, from the Bible extracts above, isn't that so? So who is the higher power? The church as a whole. Not the man on the pedestal, the claimed mouthpiece for God.
Who is the head of the church, the real higher power? What's his name, begins with J, I think...
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rhino
Thanks for these points Twinky.
I don't know the actual dynamics ... or who could have done better. But it seems many at HQ even, were still in the dark on these issues for all those years, even when several more witnesses were available and I think willing, the issue was not presented to a greater body.
As I said in the deleted thread I think, there were many "prophets" hidden in a research cave or joyful noise cave, that had not bowed their knee to VP. I see taking it to others at HQ or to many others as possible, though difficult and career ending.
For whatever reason it seems to me, a willful decision was made to not proceed with communicating to the greater body. From some witnesses, it seems there WERE people that were ready to come forward.
My belief is that saving the ministry seemed more important ... that decision proceeded from cult like beliefs as well as the oppression that was HQ.
There were several men that had the chance ... vp managed to keep his sex machine functioning ... it seems the pressures put those that would have acted into a sort of cognitive dissonance ... a surreal state of denial. (no charge for this opinion) Proceeding to confront may well have meant the end of The Way ... the enormity of the situation became overwhelming.
Rebuke before all ... that would have made for an interesting lunch "sharing" ... ha I wonder ... what if I had stood up at one of the Corps weeks, and asked if adultery was vp approved. Specifically at one week where I remember the junior corps was bragging they had basically done every kind of sex, and the corps crowd all laughed and applauded ... as I recall. I imagine it was a proud moment to VP ... sitting up on stage.
Mutually agreed to adultery was bad enough, but the reality was of course much worse.
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oenophile
Suppose I was Christian living in Poland after the Nazi invasion. Would I be obliged to turn in my neighbor who I knew was hiding Jews in her home? If I were a Hutu living in Rwanda during the 1994 genocide, would I be bound by my faith to show government troops, who were rounding up Tutzis for extermination, where Tutzis were hiding?
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