Well gee, maybe Mark could chime in ... I lived with him for a year ... hi Mark .. still strummin' ?
So abuse ... rape ... drugging ...
a victim comes to a minister? counselor? or corporate official is more accurate I think ... with problems/crimes of sexual abuse ... or any criminal allegation. Even a professional counselor, I think, would be required to notify authorities ... about the commission of a crime. It is not even the patient that is being protected (by withholding knowledge of criminal activity) ... but the higher up in the corporate entity.
And if an assault has occurred and there is evidence of continued assaults ... and more ... it seems it is gross negligence/complicity to not contact authorities ... crimes continued ... but there is an excuse of relationships to be protected? This is denial and avoidance that hopefully would not happen to a professional, as I see it.
Any excuse of "it's complicated" or "you don't understand the dynamics" does not hold water. The other relationships that were protected was the exact problem ... friends, relationships, holding the corporation together ... took priority over stopping criminal activities. A professional would have understood that ... I believe.
And the people "on the field" were not informed. "Please keep sending us your money .... and your children ... all is well" Nice ... real nice. I don't care what counseling book you were reading ... that was wrong.
Billy Graham was right. The higher powers of Romans 13 are NOT the leaders in the church....they are the civil leaders in government. VPW always used the example of Hitler as the reason this section couldn't refer to government leaders ... but the powers that be that are ordained of God ARE a terror to good works. It took several years of my being out of TWI to see the logic in this section ...
I dunno, Rhino. You're talking about teenagers and very young people with very little life experiences being put in very trying and complicated scenarios.... scenarios with adults who are very adept at manipulation and intimidation.....
Hard to say that... Hard to say I would have done anything different despite my rather bold personality and "in your face" tendencies. Heck, I succumbed to it in my early 20's and I was as rebellious as they come. *shrug* Throw God and the "man of God" profile/pedestal into the mix and I think most rational thinking goes out the window. I know my little brother kept telling my very concerned parents that they would tell me one too many times what to do and how to live and I'd rebel.
He knew me better than I and my parents knew me.... maybe he just had more faith in me than we did. Regardless, it took 10 years for me to do what he said I would and 9 years past when I first considered it but was too .... too.... scared.... too worried... too something to act on what I felt in my gut.
Hindsight is 20/20 and, while it would be nice to think we'd behave any differently, the truth is we probably wouldn't... maybe we would and maybe we could have been the ones to make a difference and that we could have brought TWI to its knees if we had been in their shoes. I doubt it, but it's nice to think it could happen.
Throwing stones this late in the game doesn't really do much good, imo - it is what it is. All we can do now is try to make amends and help as much as we can to heal the broken hearted, no?
All of us are doing the best we can. I firmly believe that.
I dont know how to categorize all the levels of dysfunction and the multitentacles of inner dynamic that drove TWI--but it was extremely complex-- and we were very highly trained into it.
Nothing was as it seemed --and we were taught to never ever trust our own perceptions ( earthly sensual and devilish.)
Put God, the Devil, a distrust of anything outside the walls, thats was drummed into our heads for years-and throw any difficult real life situation into that false world
and simple things are no longer simple things but are (or at least seem) incredibly complex.
...I dont know how many women Ive met at the shelter in horribly dysfunctional and abusive relationships. who cannot leave, or it takes them months or years because the their inner harmony is so dislodged that they cant figure out the obvious.
The inner dynamics are as real a part of the puzzle as the outward stuff..
Its always easier to have a solution from the outside where those things dont effect you or from a distance of decades...
At the time, especially in a complete mindf*ck zone and unreal world like TWI, there were no simple answers...Its easy NOW to say at a distance --Why didnt you just call the cops?
Its also easy for me to asked an abused woman --Why didnt you just leave?
Neither situation was right , but the level of dysfunction was too high and the cognitive distortion too ingrained to expect everyone to immediately shut it off and instantaneously think and act clearly.
People do what they can--sometimes it not optimum or completely up to snuff
That they act at all while they are working through it and its attendant perils shouldnt be looked down on but thanked imo.
Those first steps out of dysfunction are never easy ones and can be wrought with a lot of stumbling....
Sure I'd like to see someone stand up-but if stumbling forward is the best they can do, it still beats laying down and doing nothing..
I dont know how to categorize all the levels of dysfunction and the multitentacles of inner dynamic that drove TWI--but it was extremely complex-- and we were very highly trained into it.
...I dont know how many women Ive met at the shelter in horribly dysfunctional and abusive relationships. who cannot leave, or it takes them months or years because the their inner harmony is so dislodged that they cant figure out the obvious.
The inner dynamics are as real a part of the puzzle as the outward stuff..
Sure I'd like to see someone stand up-but if stumbling forward is the best they can do, it still beats laying down and doing nothing..ymmv
Oh gosh, great points, Mstar! Why did we stay? And, why did we stay that long? I'm sure the answers to those questions are different for each of us, but there has to be something in our family backgrounds that would help give us the answers, imo.
In that other long thread ... I had other thoughts ... as did others ... all gone now, nice and tidy.
I don't believe I ever "blamed" anyone ... except maybe vpw. I said there were no heroes. Some did more than others. Don probably did much more, I really don't know.
BUT ... whoever was in authority then, when someone came to them with these accusations, it seems they need action ... counseling also ...
Dot came out and said one was told to get the claims verified with others and they got thirteen I think. They weren't all coming for group counseling, were they?
No, I can't say I would have done more or as much ... I have no idea.
A friend , his wife and I met on "ho ho break" briefly and talked about a bunch of screwy things with the corps program. I said the only honest things to do was quit or try to change them. (not illegal or sexual stuff) I never really did that, I just continued on mostly.
But the other guy did .. after a long list of things ... Lynn just joked "so how do you like what we're doing with Allen Gym". Icebreaker I guess ... but nothing changed, and I continued for 5 years and that friend was ordained and carried on.
So I guess the point for then and more for now, is just "confronting" is not enough. We trash these other groups like CFF with v2p2 ... but people in those groups should be aware that "confronting" their new MOG on things is not enough. They should not do as most/all of us did the first time around ... and just let the bad stuff continue.
Actually I think CES did take action when one of their mini mogs was too ggressive with their flock. I even got the letter and I was not ever involved in CES.
I'd think people want to get info here, on how to deal with these nefarious activities in their current cult. Isn't that the point of GSC?
Telling them that the right action was to protect relationships and comfort more and more victims ... is wrong.
Maybe Don has more honesty in his little pinky than I will ever have ... I don't know. But that (from the censored thread) sounds morelike bravado in protecting an idol.
Or saying that he stood on the track for us all ... for us all. I belieive he got off track, though he did try more than others ... I guess.
Which is why I think the honest answer, to why the abuse (and apparently crimes) continued even after being reported to a ministry executive... is that it was a cult ... which is what I say in the opening of this thread.
As mstar said ... what a mental cluster eff ..HQ was at the time ... no doubt.
I'm not blaming anyone for not saving the whole thing ... but "the ministry" was held above regard for the individual. There was no prince valiant.
And I never said "why didn't you just call the cops" ... I never claimed it was easy or simple ... but in the ended continued harm needed to be stopped, and it wasn't till lcm was taken before government authorities. Should have happened much sooner.
but that thread is censored ... yet I'm being misquoted from it ... sheesh ...
But the principle here is a lesson for people in cults in the present ... it is not enough to just confront your MOG ... revising a central story to the old history does NOT help make that point. It encourages folks to just maybe confront and comfort the victims, but never stop the activity. It may make you feel a little better, but it is not the stopping point.
I'm writing because I also have concern for people in cults NOW ... and rationalizing any inaction in the past just blurs the message.
Also, any in the present that still tend to look for a new master, don't need to be glorifying their old mogs ... that is a separate issue that just seems yuchy ... not that anyoneis asking for that ... yuchy ...
Isn't it kind of an oxymoron to claim client patient privilege when the privileged compares notes with a none professional? Aren't there also laws that supersede privilege when a crime is brought to light in one of these closed sessions?
Don't get me wrong; it is easy to arm-chair quarter back events that are older than most natural memories allow clear recall of details. That and the cult mind set dominating the logic has to be taken into account. It is easy to brand those with knowledge of the crimes accessory because they didn't put a stop to the crimes immediately. Giving the good ole college try while going against everything you were taught and you stood for over years of your life is very admirable. No one can honestly claim they would have done as much let alone more had we been in those shoes. Even knowing how repulsive pedophiles are to us.
But, here goes the big old but to what I am thinking; I would think everyone's Prince Valiant in this historical documentation would be a lot more tolerant and forgiving towards others and where they are now mentally. They can recall their dilemma yet don't allow the dilemma others were faced with?
Dot came out and said one was told to get the claims verified with others and they got thirteen I think. They weren't all coming for group counseling, were they?
I did not know about that. You would think that would have opened some eyes and gotten something done to stop it. That it didn't speaks volumes.
They did that and you and your buddies
But the other guy did .. after a long list of things ... Lynn just joked "so how do you like what we're doing with Allen Gym". Icebreaker I guess ... but nothing changed, and I continued for 5 years and that friend was ordained and carried on.
So I guess the point for then and more for now, is just "confronting" is not enough. We trash these other groups like CFF with v2p2 ... but people in those groups should be aware that "confronting" their new MOG on things is not enough. They should not do as most/all of us did the first time around ... and just let the bad stuff continue.
Good question:
I'd think people want to get info here, on how to deal with these nefarious activities in their current cult. Isn't that the point of GSC?
Telling them that the right action was to protect relationships and comfort more and more victims ... is wrong.
Indeed.... it seems that there should be more that could be done should the same situation be going on today in an organization. Is there, really? I don't know.
Which is why I think the honest answer, to why the abuse (and apparently crimes) continued even after being reported to a ministry executive... is that it was a cult ... which is what I say in the opening of this thread.
As mstar said ... what a mental cluster eff ..HQ was at the time ... no doubt.
I'm not blaming anyone for not saving the whole thing ... but "the ministry" was held above regard for the individual. There was no prince valiant.
Indeed it IS a cult. Look at how many people did try to be Prince Valiant - as much or as loudly as they knew how - and it got nowhere. Many people spoke up when they left, to the best of my knowledge, they DID tell people what they knew was going on (as much as they knew anyway). POP paper.... people talking.... people who did confront vee pee directly..... nothing anyone did try worked.
It didn't work because of all the information control, intimidation and multitudes of genuinely "good people" who were in TWI. Like weeds tangled up with beautiful grape vines.... it's hard, sometimes, to see the weeds and to extract them from the vines.
Some people were very happy with TWI and wouldn't/couldn't believe something horrible was going on.
Some people questioned things or had private concerns but the "benefits" they were getting from being involved with TWI outweighed those concerns.
Some people were so blinded that they believed the lies and cover up excuses.
Some folks knew what was going on but it didn't affect them directly so they didn't want to get involved.
Any time someone made a valiant effort at stopping, protecting or exposing the treachery, they were quickly and effectively shut down.
What would/should we tell someone in that same situation today somewhere? I don't know. It's much easier to communicate and expose things today thanks to the world wide web, but those people have to be ready to face up to the truth of the abuse going on. As we've seen... not everyone wants to. Even today there are people who cover, excuse and justify the actions of vee pee, craiggers and their henchmen.
But the principle here is a lesson for people in cults in the present ... it is not enough to just confront your MOG ... revising a central story to the old history does NOT help make that point. It encourages folks to just maybe confront and comfort the victims, but never stop the activity. It may make you feel a little better, but it is not the stopping point.
I'm writing because I also have concern for people in cults NOW ... and rationalizing any inaction in the past just blurs the message.
I mis-read your intention, I'm sorry. :) I thought it sounded a little callous and unexpected from you, so I apologize.
Indeed it would be nice to know what to advise someone today who might find themselves in that situation. I guess if we had an answer to that TWI, Scientology and other abusive groups would no longer be around.
i submit this thread as one of information, and civil discussion regarding the topic.......i invite all former twi "clergy" who post here to contribute their own, personal experiences and understanding of twi "doctrines and practices" regarding the "proper" methodology of "pastoral" or "christian" counselling they were taught, as well as any who graduated from twi's various way corps training programs.........also, all those with questions or personal experiences pertinent to the topic, please feel free to contribute!!............input from any of you who currently practice as professionally trained and/or licensed counselors in whatever disciplines would be especially pertinent, imho!
Rhino, please forgive me, but I couldn't figure out which category you fall into on DWBH's thread. People who start threads sometimes address them to a specific audience. If I don't fall into that audience, I just read out of respect for the person who started the thread. So, I just wondered if you're a licensed counselor, former wc or clergy, or someone with a question or personal experience pertinent to the topic? Couldn't find any of the former in any of your posts....
I mis-read your intention, I'm sorry. :) I thought it sounded a little callous and unexpected from you, so I apologize.
Indeed it would be nice to know what to advise someone today who might find themselves in that situation. I guess if we had an answer to that TWI, Scientology and other abusive groups would no longer be around.
Well it does sound callous ... it is hard to be brief but make the point that seems to be stepping on toes.
I think we do have the answer on what to do. The Prince Valiants that left, often took others with them, and put more doubt in those that stayed and listened to the "they were possessed" rap.
The guy that did the astronomy work for The Promised Seed even made an impression, just hearing his comments even indirectly through Craig.
And since we are in the NOW with the internet, there should be room for another "other side of the story".
I guess I'm not allowed to bring up another Christian group that scolded their ministers for bad/criminal behavior ... but allowed the practices to continue till they were finally taken to court.
You complain about the "Where's the Beef" thread being censored yet you fail to mention that you wanted attacks on you deleted, which would include deleting all the harassing that you made. It meant deleting the thread, which you had a very big hand in derailing with your attacks. And if you continue, you will be suspended. I am not going to have you or others destroying threads.
Rhino, please forgive me, but I couldn't figure out which category you fall into on DWBH's thread. People who start threads sometimes address them to a specific audience. If I don't fall into that audience, I just read out of respect for the person who started the thread. So, I just wondered if you're a licensed counselor, former wc or clergy, or someone with a question or personal experience pertinent to the topic? Couldn't find any of the former in any of your posts....
I'm the person that was misquoted from a censored thread, and attacked in Don's opening treatise ...
recently, on another thread, someone demanded to know
why i did'nt just "call the cops"?, rather than resort to "just" comforting the wounded
? how
utterly shallow and compassionless
a question! .......imho, a question easily blurted out by those whose
willful ignorance
of the profound personal suffering experienced by so many, along with a haughty
lack of sincere concern
for the
If the thread was not censored, I could show what I really said. I was also told I make things up on that thread, when I showed that was not true, my response was censored, but the false accusation remained. Then finally the hole thread (about how there is little censorship here) was deleted. These actions are too reminiscient of how other inconvenient truths are handled in cult worlds.
I was also flamed on that thread ... and since most know about that thread, they know who Don is referring to here ... so I might as well say so.
I was also in the corps ...
And when someone with an eating disorder came to me ... I counseled them ... by telling them they needed to seek a real professional.
I performed one wedding, I counseled them by giving them a couple books ... I said I couldn't do marriage counseling.
I sent a couple alcoholics to AA. I never pretended to be a real counselor, and doing so without real training is probably another grave injustice that might be addressed in this context. Serious issues of rape or abuse need real counseling ... illegal activity requires legal action.
the role of executives was to deal with management of a large organization ...
Given the power of the cult, I have no idea if I could have acted correctly in the same situation ... blame for what happened then is not the issue ... learning what should be done in CFF or TWI or scientology or the catholic church ... NOW ... is the point.
Well it does sound callous ... it is hard to be brief but make the point that seems to be stepping on toes.
I think we do have the answer on what to do. The Prince Valiants that left, often took others with them, and put more doubt in those that stayed and listened to the "they were possessed" rap.
The guy that did the astronomy work for The Promised Seed even made an impression, just hearing his comments even indirectly through Craig.
And since we are in the NOW with the internet, there should be room for another "other side of the story".
I guess I'm not allowed to bring up another Christian group that scolded their ministers for bad/criminal behavior ... but allowed the practices to continue till they were finally taken to court.
Rhino
I 'd love to hear another "other side of the story". I wonder why anyone would not want the full facts to make an educated decision.
My LC, a 6th corps grad called and sent me to a home where a twiggy was threatening his wife with a knife. The LC said; get some body and get out there, don't hesitate to call the law if he doesn't immediately get rid of the knife. After first WOW year, former WOW sister stayed in state and all the rest of us left. WOW sister went to a Way Home full of men and went from room to room trying to get her needs meet, another 6th corps grad LC in that state called the BC and had her taken to a mental hospital and told she could return to twig when they released her. That was 6 months later. This guy walked away from his degree in psychology right before graduation because they handed him a conglomerate of "theories" and said find out what works. Even with his bad experience with the field he didn't hesitate to send some one for help.
Another time we went out of town for a limb meeting and returned to find our home had been burglarized, the LC at that time was FC and I don't remember the number. We found out it was one of our newbies and when we called the LC he insisted we called police. Oh wait; the ABS was stolen so this one might not count…..
You complain about the "Where's the Beef" thread being censored yet you fail to mention that you wanted attacks on you deleted, which would include deleting all the harassing that you made. It meant deleting the thread, which you had a very big hand in derailing with your attacks. And if you continue, you will be suspended. I am not going to have you or others destroying threads.
No ... I said I wanted the attack on me that said I make things up deleted, because my response was deleted. I showed I was not making it up ... it got deleted while the false attack remained. I said then that attack should be deleted ... you deleted the whole thread.
I mentioned the other flaming as it showed partiality... and said I didn't care about it. That flaming actually helped expose part of the problem.
Some people who had good judgment made good decisions. The inverse is true as well.
But the real point, IMO, is that there was no bona fide system in place to qualify individuals as purveyors of sound advice.
That doesn't mean that no one ever gave sound advice. It just means that "even a broken clock is right twice a day".
And yes, I too heard wierwille expound on how the "real" higher powers were the elders of the church. And, of course, we all know he didn't mean just any old church, now did he?
I guess I'm not seeing what this thread is really all about. But I am much more comfortable with the rules and regs of our civil leaders than I am with rules and regs of religious leaders.
TWI's pyramid leadership structure and no process for grievances(unless you had a high muckamuck good buddy) had no checks and balances of power.
I don't get why spin off groups don't see the dangers of tryanny.
I guess I'm not seeing what this thread is really all about. But I am much more comfortable with the rules and regs of our civil leaders than I am with rules and regs of religious leaders.
TWI's pyramid leadership structure and no process for grievances(unless you had a high muckamuck good buddy) had no checks and balances of power.
I don't get why spin off groups don't see the dangers of tryanny.
Good points Bramble ...
So a group of witnesses/victims get together and confront the church leader ... what next?
This is partly a carry over from another discussion ... but in general, when there is serious damage happening, telling your minister or cult leader is probably not adequate. And if the minister/cult leader assistants "counsel" you to not go to authorities, they will handle this, that may be a bad sign and a false comfort.
The truth is the government (at least in the US) still functions and is the place to go when there is a serious problem. By taking them out of the process (and making that doctrine) ... it did indeed set up tyranny.
My point is the law is (and always was) there in the chain of command ...
Don's thread is more that licensed health care professionals are required to help with serious matters, not some young buck feigning some special powers via laying on of unholy hands ... (my editorializing)
I do see value in Christian structures however, just not in isolated tyrannical pseudo Christian cults ... so much. Christian ministers or just fellow Christians or good neighbors can offer much in social support.
Of course there is also MTV and gangster rap ... and video games and the internet ... to raise the children and set standards. So I'm not too big on giving government or their minions too much control over private groups. They provide more of a protect and defend role.
I really can't say that there is anything wrong with some folks I know in Chicago holding their home fellowship ... they seem smart and competent, and I doubt they would stand for abuse. Psychotherapy is not necessarily a good journey either, and could be its own cult, as professionals endeavor to retain their clients and lead them on some dark journey into some hidden past.
I Suppose they wish to keep it "in House" because they subconsciously know there is a whole lot of muck that could be raked up, muck which they want kept under the carpet.
If the muck got exposed, their presentation of the Organization as a Utopia of perfection, unity, and absolute love might get some tarnish on it.
As Shepherds they feel they are responsible for the loss of a sheep, and they dont want any sheep being offended by a tacky, nasty incident that gets splattered into general awareness because civil authorities became involved.
The rational for keeping the civil authorities out of it, is of course that these operate under Satans direction. The External Enemy that the household must cling to each other against lest they be devoured.
Psychotherapy is not necessarily a good journey either, and could be its own cult, as professionals endeavor to retain their clients and lead them on some dark journey into some hidden past.
BUT --Psychotherapy at least has professional minimum standards and guidelines that must be met in order for a therapist to be licensed by the state and to practice...They have to be registered and insured--if there is any malpractice eventually the authorities will see to it that they are in business no longer.
Not every form of psychotherapy involves a dark journey to the hidden past, there are as many forms and methods of practice as there are different approaches to christianity--some are more effective than others (imo), some are mainstream some more on the far fringes...I would nt categorize all of them as cultic anymore than I would all of christianty (although some of them definitely are..)..In other words there is probably something that would be of benefit for near anybody--If you shop wisely.
AFAIK there were no minmum standards at all in TWI other than being a PFAL grad and a Wierwille yesman. The book Competent to Counsel as I remember used some verse out of Romans (maybe) that said basically we were 'competent to counsel' one another. So competency mystically appeared instantaneously instead of through years of education, research and study in counseling..Like most things way the easy no effort way was enough...even though it had disastrous results.
There was no form of review no licensing no testing no education--nothing--just the final word of one mog---It really was a sick and dangerous system.
The denominations that I work closely with all generally have a board of overseers,or vestry , sets of laws and bylaws that closely scrutinize, and review all church activity within very strict guidelines. If there are even the minorest of violations entire review and disciplinary procedures are already in place.
There is an very lengthy process for ordination, involving years of schooling, reviews observation as well as multiple viewpoint as to whether a candidate is suited to ministry. Then they are licensed within the denomination and that only as long as they stay in good standing.
They are of course subject to the law and also to very stringent church law and standards
No wonder Wierwille quit the denomination!
There are mistakes of course butfor the most part they work fairly well--or at least way better than a group like TWI that has its power and answers centralized in one man and a pseudo board of very similar minded "trustees".
As far as people still in their own cults still--ANY group, ANYWHERE that sets up their own 'ministry' is HIGHLY HIGHLY suspect in my book.
Christian Ministry is a respected profession that has as many real life standards as a State licensed and medically reviewed surgeon must have..
If someone wants to have back room surgery at Joes Hack Shack, have at it, but dont say I didnt warn you----the same goes for these shortsighted 'ministries'
Id seek out the real thing
ps...and thanks for changin that Rhino--'preciate it..
Christian Ministry is a respected profession that has as many real life standards as a State licensed and medically reviewed surgeon must have..
yes ... there are good and bad in both ... check for credentials and get references ... but I do think people can get too reliant on a "shrink", and the counselor might. But no ... TWI was a whole 'nuther animal ...
ps...and thanks for changin that Rhino--'preciate it..
heh ... np ... I was thinking of one guy from one place on the site with a similar story. But I guess it sounded like I was talking about the same guy.
If the muck got exposed, their presentation of the Organization as a Utopia of perfection, unity, and absolute love might get some tarnish on it.
After POP ... thinks fell apart quickly ... people that didn't tow the party line were ousted, and it seems THEN they went on with their own thing. The desire to stay in the cult was very strong ... and I believe there was/is a huge amount of rationalization in trying to explain why we didn't leave sooner ... or help victims leave or get real help or stop abuse.
Why didn't I speak up before this? Because I didn't really see these things until early in 1987 when
I finally began to wake up from the slumber of "group-think" mentality. I apologize for not doing so long ago
.
I believe that is right ... a slumber ... a group think mentality ... it was a cult. Actions taken while in that slumber were always dictated by the power of cult think. Of course there are a hundred ways to rationalize, but the cult took priority over individuals.
People were still role playing ... their whole identity was TWI ... how could they walk away ... how could they let the ministry be harmed ... it was Gawd's ministry ... they were God's elite muckety mucks.
Most even after POP, stayed around trying to save the ministry ... it was a cult ... nobody was thinking very clearly ... as I see it ... the deeper you were in, the deeper the delusion and long term harm.
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rhino
Well gee, maybe Mark could chime in ... I lived with him for a year ... hi Mark .. still strummin' ?
So abuse ... rape ... drugging ...
a victim comes to a minister? counselor? or corporate official is more accurate I think ... with problems/crimes of sexual abuse ... or any criminal allegation. Even a professional counselor, I think, would be required to notify authorities ... about the commission of a crime. It is not even the patient that is being protected (by withholding knowledge of criminal activity) ... but the higher up in the corporate entity.
And if an assault has occurred and there is evidence of continued assaults ... and more ... it seems it is gross negligence/complicity to not contact authorities ... crimes continued ... but there is an excuse of relationships to be protected? This is denial and avoidance that hopefully would not happen to a professional, as I see it.
Any excuse of "it's complicated" or "you don't understand the dynamics" does not hold water. The other relationships that were protected was the exact problem ... friends, relationships, holding the corporation together ... took priority over stopping criminal activities. A professional would have understood that ... I believe.
And the people "on the field" were not informed. "Please keep sending us your money .... and your children ... all is well" Nice ... real nice. I don't care what counseling book you were reading ... that was wrong.
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DogLover
Billy Graham was right. The higher powers of Romans 13 are NOT the leaders in the church....they are the civil leaders in government. VPW always used the example of Hitler as the reason this section couldn't refer to government leaders ... but the powers that be that are ordained of God ARE a terror to good works. It took several years of my being out of TWI to see the logic in this section ...
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Belle
I dunno, Rhino. You're talking about teenagers and very young people with very little life experiences being put in very trying and complicated scenarios.... scenarios with adults who are very adept at manipulation and intimidation.....
Hard to say that... Hard to say I would have done anything different despite my rather bold personality and "in your face" tendencies. Heck, I succumbed to it in my early 20's and I was as rebellious as they come. *shrug* Throw God and the "man of God" profile/pedestal into the mix and I think most rational thinking goes out the window. I know my little brother kept telling my very concerned parents that they would tell me one too many times what to do and how to live and I'd rebel.
He knew me better than I and my parents knew me.... maybe he just had more faith in me than we did. Regardless, it took 10 years for me to do what he said I would and 9 years past when I first considered it but was too .... too.... scared.... too worried... too something to act on what I felt in my gut.
Hindsight is 20/20 and, while it would be nice to think we'd behave any differently, the truth is we probably wouldn't... maybe we would and maybe we could have been the ones to make a difference and that we could have brought TWI to its knees if we had been in their shoes. I doubt it, but it's nice to think it could happen.
Throwing stones this late in the game doesn't really do much good, imo - it is what it is. All we can do now is try to make amends and help as much as we can to heal the broken hearted, no?
All of us are doing the best we can. I firmly believe that.
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mstar1
I dont know how to categorize all the levels of dysfunction and the multitentacles of inner dynamic that drove TWI--but it was extremely complex-- and we were very highly trained into it.
Nothing was as it seemed --and we were taught to never ever trust our own perceptions ( earthly sensual and devilish.)
Put God, the Devil, a distrust of anything outside the walls, thats was drummed into our heads for years-and throw any difficult real life situation into that false world
and simple things are no longer simple things but are (or at least seem) incredibly complex.
...I dont know how many women Ive met at the shelter in horribly dysfunctional and abusive relationships. who cannot leave, or it takes them months or years because the their inner harmony is so dislodged that they cant figure out the obvious.
The inner dynamics are as real a part of the puzzle as the outward stuff..
Its always easier to have a solution from the outside where those things dont effect you or from a distance of decades...
At the time, especially in a complete mindf*ck zone and unreal world like TWI, there were no simple answers...Its easy NOW to say at a distance --Why didnt you just call the cops?
Its also easy for me to asked an abused woman --Why didnt you just leave?
Neither situation was right , but the level of dysfunction was too high and the cognitive distortion too ingrained to expect everyone to immediately shut it off and instantaneously think and act clearly.
People do what they can--sometimes it not optimum or completely up to snuff
That they act at all while they are working through it and its attendant perils shouldnt be looked down on but thanked imo.
Those first steps out of dysfunction are never easy ones and can be wrought with a lot of stumbling....
Sure I'd like to see someone stand up-but if stumbling forward is the best they can do, it still beats laying down and doing nothing..
ymmv
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waterbuffalo
Oh gosh, great points, Mstar! Why did we stay? And, why did we stay that long? I'm sure the answers to those questions are different for each of us, but there has to be something in our family backgrounds that would help give us the answers, imo.
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rhino
In that other long thread ... I had other thoughts ... as did others ... all gone now, nice and tidy.
I don't believe I ever "blamed" anyone ... except maybe vpw. I said there were no heroes. Some did more than others. Don probably did much more, I really don't know.
BUT ... whoever was in authority then, when someone came to them with these accusations, it seems they need action ... counseling also ...
Dot came out and said one was told to get the claims verified with others and they got thirteen I think. They weren't all coming for group counseling, were they?
No, I can't say I would have done more or as much ... I have no idea.
A friend , his wife and I met on "ho ho break" briefly and talked about a bunch of screwy things with the corps program. I said the only honest things to do was quit or try to change them. (not illegal or sexual stuff) I never really did that, I just continued on mostly.
But the other guy did .. after a long list of things ... Lynn just joked "so how do you like what we're doing with Allen Gym". Icebreaker I guess ... but nothing changed, and I continued for 5 years and that friend was ordained and carried on.
So I guess the point for then and more for now, is just "confronting" is not enough. We trash these other groups like CFF with v2p2 ... but people in those groups should be aware that "confronting" their new MOG on things is not enough. They should not do as most/all of us did the first time around ... and just let the bad stuff continue.
Actually I think CES did take action when one of their mini mogs was too ggressive with their flock. I even got the letter and I was not ever involved in CES.
I'd think people want to get info here, on how to deal with these nefarious activities in their current cult. Isn't that the point of GSC?
Telling them that the right action was to protect relationships and comfort more and more victims ... is wrong.
Maybe Don has more honesty in his little pinky than I will ever have ... I don't know. But that (from the censored thread) sounds morelike bravado in protecting an idol.
Or saying that he stood on the track for us all ... for us all. I belieive he got off track, though he did try more than others ... I guess.
Which is why I think the honest answer, to why the abuse (and apparently crimes) continued even after being reported to a ministry executive... is that it was a cult ... which is what I say in the opening of this thread.
As mstar said ... what a mental cluster eff ..HQ was at the time ... no doubt.
I'm not blaming anyone for not saving the whole thing ... but "the ministry" was held above regard for the individual. There was no prince valiant.
And I never said "why didn't you just call the cops" ... I never claimed it was easy or simple ... but in the ended continued harm needed to be stopped, and it wasn't till lcm was taken before government authorities. Should have happened much sooner.
but that thread is censored ... yet I'm being misquoted from it ... sheesh ...
But the principle here is a lesson for people in cults in the present ... it is not enough to just confront your MOG ... revising a central story to the old history does NOT help make that point. It encourages folks to just maybe confront and comfort the victims, but never stop the activity. It may make you feel a little better, but it is not the stopping point.
I'm writing because I also have concern for people in cults NOW ... and rationalizing any inaction in the past just blurs the message.
Also, any in the present that still tend to look for a new master, don't need to be glorifying their old mogs ... that is a separate issue that just seems yuchy ... not that anyoneis asking for that ... yuchy ...
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mstar1
Rhino
i have a busy day and cant answer right now but will consider your points as time allows
meanwhile do me a favor--Edit your post--You dont need to out anyone, even someone you have differences with--its bad form--
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Ductape
Isn't it kind of an oxymoron to claim client patient privilege when the privileged compares notes with a none professional? Aren't there also laws that supersede privilege when a crime is brought to light in one of these closed sessions?
Don't get me wrong; it is easy to arm-chair quarter back events that are older than most natural memories allow clear recall of details. That and the cult mind set dominating the logic has to be taken into account. It is easy to brand those with knowledge of the crimes accessory because they didn't put a stop to the crimes immediately. Giving the good ole college try while going against everything you were taught and you stood for over years of your life is very admirable. No one can honestly claim they would have done as much let alone more had we been in those shoes. Even knowing how repulsive pedophiles are to us.
But, here goes the big old but to what I am thinking; I would think everyone's Prince Valiant in this historical documentation would be a lot more tolerant and forgiving towards others and where they are now mentally. They can recall their dilemma yet don't allow the dilemma others were faced with?
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Belle
I did not know about that. You would think that would have opened some eyes and gotten something done to stop it. That it didn't speaks volumes.
They did that and you and your buddies
Good question:Indeed.... it seems that there should be more that could be done should the same situation be going on today in an organization. Is there, really? I don't know.
Indeed it IS a cult. Look at how many people did try to be Prince Valiant - as much or as loudly as they knew how - and it got nowhere. Many people spoke up when they left, to the best of my knowledge, they DID tell people what they knew was going on (as much as they knew anyway). POP paper.... people talking.... people who did confront vee pee directly..... nothing anyone did try worked.It didn't work because of all the information control, intimidation and multitudes of genuinely "good people" who were in TWI. Like weeds tangled up with beautiful grape vines.... it's hard, sometimes, to see the weeds and to extract them from the vines.
Some people were very happy with TWI and wouldn't/couldn't believe something horrible was going on.
Some people questioned things or had private concerns but the "benefits" they were getting from being involved with TWI outweighed those concerns.
Some people were so blinded that they believed the lies and cover up excuses.
Some folks knew what was going on but it didn't affect them directly so they didn't want to get involved.
Any time someone made a valiant effort at stopping, protecting or exposing the treachery, they were quickly and effectively shut down.
What would/should we tell someone in that same situation today somewhere? I don't know. It's much easier to communicate and expose things today thanks to the world wide web, but those people have to be ready to face up to the truth of the abuse going on. As we've seen... not everyone wants to. Even today there are people who cover, excuse and justify the actions of vee pee, craiggers and their henchmen.
I mis-read your intention, I'm sorry. :) I thought it sounded a little callous and unexpected from you, so I apologize.
Indeed it would be nice to know what to advise someone today who might find themselves in that situation. I guess if we had an answer to that TWI, Scientology and other abusive groups would no longer be around.
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waterbuffalo
DWBH said:
Rhino, please forgive me, but I couldn't figure out which category you fall into on DWBH's thread. People who start threads sometimes address them to a specific audience. If I don't fall into that audience, I just read out of respect for the person who started the thread. So, I just wondered if you're a licensed counselor, former wc or clergy, or someone with a question or personal experience pertinent to the topic? Couldn't find any of the former in any of your posts....
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rhino
Well it does sound callous ... it is hard to be brief but make the point that seems to be stepping on toes.
I think we do have the answer on what to do. The Prince Valiants that left, often took others with them, and put more doubt in those that stayed and listened to the "they were possessed" rap.
The guy that did the astronomy work for The Promised Seed even made an impression, just hearing his comments even indirectly through Craig.
And since we are in the NOW with the internet, there should be room for another "other side of the story".
I guess I'm not allowed to bring up another Christian group that scolded their ministers for bad/criminal behavior ... but allowed the practices to continue till they were finally taken to court.
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pawtucket
Rhino,
You complain about the "Where's the Beef" thread being censored yet you fail to mention that you wanted attacks on you deleted, which would include deleting all the harassing that you made. It meant deleting the thread, which you had a very big hand in derailing with your attacks. And if you continue, you will be suspended. I am not going to have you or others destroying threads.
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rhino
I'm the person that was misquoted from a censored thread, and attacked in Don's opening treatise ...
If the thread was not censored, I could show what I really said. I was also told I make things up on that thread, when I showed that was not true, my response was censored, but the false accusation remained. Then finally the hole thread (about how there is little censorship here) was deleted. These actions are too reminiscient of how other inconvenient truths are handled in cult worlds.
I was also flamed on that thread ... and since most know about that thread, they know who Don is referring to here ... so I might as well say so.
I was also in the corps ...
And when someone with an eating disorder came to me ... I counseled them ... by telling them they needed to seek a real professional.
I performed one wedding, I counseled them by giving them a couple books ... I said I couldn't do marriage counseling.
I sent a couple alcoholics to AA. I never pretended to be a real counselor, and doing so without real training is probably another grave injustice that might be addressed in this context. Serious issues of rape or abuse need real counseling ... illegal activity requires legal action.
the role of executives was to deal with management of a large organization ...
Given the power of the cult, I have no idea if I could have acted correctly in the same situation ... blame for what happened then is not the issue ... learning what should be done in CFF or TWI or scientology or the catholic church ... NOW ... is the point.
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WhiteDove
Rhino
I 'd love to hear another "other side of the story". I wonder why anyone would not want the full facts to make an educated decision.
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Ductape
My LC, a 6th corps grad called and sent me to a home where a twiggy was threatening his wife with a knife. The LC said; get some body and get out there, don't hesitate to call the law if he doesn't immediately get rid of the knife. After first WOW year, former WOW sister stayed in state and all the rest of us left. WOW sister went to a Way Home full of men and went from room to room trying to get her needs meet, another 6th corps grad LC in that state called the BC and had her taken to a mental hospital and told she could return to twig when they released her. That was 6 months later. This guy walked away from his degree in psychology right before graduation because they handed him a conglomerate of "theories" and said find out what works. Even with his bad experience with the field he didn't hesitate to send some one for help.
Another time we went out of town for a limb meeting and returned to find our home had been burglarized, the LC at that time was FC and I don't remember the number. We found out it was one of our newbies and when we called the LC he insisted we called police. Oh wait; the ABS was stolen so this one might not count…..
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rhino
No ... I said I wanted the attack on me that said I make things up deleted, because my response was deleted. I showed I was not making it up ... it got deleted while the false attack remained. I said then that attack should be deleted ... you deleted the whole thread.
I mentioned the other flaming as it showed partiality... and said I didn't care about it. That flaming actually helped expose part of the problem.
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waysider
Some people who had good judgment made good decisions. The inverse is true as well.
But the real point, IMO, is that there was no bona fide system in place to qualify individuals as purveyors of sound advice.
That doesn't mean that no one ever gave sound advice. It just means that "even a broken clock is right twice a day".
And yes, I too heard wierwille expound on how the "real" higher powers were the elders of the church. And, of course, we all know he didn't mean just any old church, now did he?
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Bramble
I guess I'm not seeing what this thread is really all about. But I am much more comfortable with the rules and regs of our civil leaders than I am with rules and regs of religious leaders.
TWI's pyramid leadership structure and no process for grievances(unless you had a high muckamuck good buddy) had no checks and balances of power.
I don't get why spin off groups don't see the dangers of tryanny.
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rhino
Good points Bramble ...
So a group of witnesses/victims get together and confront the church leader ... what next?
This is partly a carry over from another discussion ... but in general, when there is serious damage happening, telling your minister or cult leader is probably not adequate. And if the minister/cult leader assistants "counsel" you to not go to authorities, they will handle this, that may be a bad sign and a false comfort.
The truth is the government (at least in the US) still functions and is the place to go when there is a serious problem. By taking them out of the process (and making that doctrine) ... it did indeed set up tyranny.
My point is the law is (and always was) there in the chain of command ...
Don's thread is more that licensed health care professionals are required to help with serious matters, not some young buck feigning some special powers via laying on of unholy hands ... (my editorializing)
I do see value in Christian structures however, just not in isolated tyrannical pseudo Christian cults ... so much. Christian ministers or just fellow Christians or good neighbors can offer much in social support.
Of course there is also MTV and gangster rap ... and video games and the internet ... to raise the children and set standards. So I'm not too big on giving government or their minions too much control over private groups. They provide more of a protect and defend role.
I really can't say that there is anything wrong with some folks I know in Chicago holding their home fellowship ... they seem smart and competent, and I doubt they would stand for abuse. Psychotherapy is not necessarily a good journey either, and could be its own cult, as professionals endeavor to retain their clients and lead them on some dark journey into some hidden past.
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Combination
I Suppose they wish to keep it "in House" because they subconsciously know there is a whole lot of muck that could be raked up, muck which they want kept under the carpet.
If the muck got exposed, their presentation of the Organization as a Utopia of perfection, unity, and absolute love might get some tarnish on it.
As Shepherds they feel they are responsible for the loss of a sheep, and they dont want any sheep being offended by a tacky, nasty incident that gets splattered into general awareness because civil authorities became involved.
The rational for keeping the civil authorities out of it, is of course that these operate under Satans direction. The External Enemy that the household must cling to each other against lest they be devoured.
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mstar1
BUT --Psychotherapy at least has professional minimum standards and guidelines that must be met in order for a therapist to be licensed by the state and to practice...They have to be registered and insured--if there is any malpractice eventually the authorities will see to it that they are in business no longer.
Not every form of psychotherapy involves a dark journey to the hidden past, there are as many forms and methods of practice as there are different approaches to christianity--some are more effective than others (imo), some are mainstream some more on the far fringes...I would nt categorize all of them as cultic anymore than I would all of christianty (although some of them definitely are..)..In other words there is probably something that would be of benefit for near anybody--If you shop wisely.
AFAIK there were no minmum standards at all in TWI other than being a PFAL grad and a Wierwille yesman. The book Competent to Counsel as I remember used some verse out of Romans (maybe) that said basically we were 'competent to counsel' one another. So competency mystically appeared instantaneously instead of through years of education, research and study in counseling..Like most things way the easy no effort way was enough...even though it had disastrous results.
There was no form of review no licensing no testing no education--nothing--just the final word of one mog---It really was a sick and dangerous system.
The denominations that I work closely with all generally have a board of overseers,or vestry , sets of laws and bylaws that closely scrutinize, and review all church activity within very strict guidelines. If there are even the minorest of violations entire review and disciplinary procedures are already in place.
There is an very lengthy process for ordination, involving years of schooling, reviews observation as well as multiple viewpoint as to whether a candidate is suited to ministry. Then they are licensed within the denomination and that only as long as they stay in good standing.
They are of course subject to the law and also to very stringent church law and standards
No wonder Wierwille quit the denomination!
There are mistakes of course butfor the most part they work fairly well--or at least way better than a group like TWI that has its power and answers centralized in one man and a pseudo board of very similar minded "trustees".
As far as people still in their own cults still--ANY group, ANYWHERE that sets up their own 'ministry' is HIGHLY HIGHLY suspect in my book.
Christian Ministry is a respected profession that has as many real life standards as a State licensed and medically reviewed surgeon must have..
If someone wants to have back room surgery at Joes Hack Shack, have at it, but dont say I didnt warn you----the same goes for these shortsighted 'ministries'
Id seek out the real thing
ps...and thanks for changin that Rhino--'preciate it..
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rhino
yes ... there are good and bad in both ... check for credentials and get references ... but I do think people can get too reliant on a "shrink", and the counselor might. But no ... TWI was a whole 'nuther animal ...
heh ... np ... I was thinking of one guy from one place on the site with a similar story. But I guess it sounded like I was talking about the same guy.
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Ham
In one of my past lives I think I may have been one of these "skanks".. I think it's partially hidden from me.
maybe I had good parents this time around..
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rhino
After POP ... thinks fell apart quickly ... people that didn't tow the party line were ousted, and it seems THEN they went on with their own thing. The desire to stay in the cult was very strong ... and I believe there was/is a huge amount of rationalization in trying to explain why we didn't leave sooner ... or help victims leave or get real help or stop abuse.
Here is what John Lynn said in 1988 ...
I believe that is right ... a slumber ... a group think mentality ... it was a cult. Actions taken while in that slumber were always dictated by the power of cult think. Of course there are a hundred ways to rationalize, but the cult took priority over individuals.
People were still role playing ... their whole identity was TWI ... how could they walk away ... how could they let the ministry be harmed ... it was Gawd's ministry ... they were God's elite muckety mucks.
Most even after POP, stayed around trying to save the ministry ... it was a cult ... nobody was thinking very clearly ... as I see it ... the deeper you were in, the deeper the delusion and long term harm.
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