VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?

[RumRunner]

Well Mike while I appreciate your version of respect to Todd...let's think you the illogic of your words. This response will have precisely nothing to do with our doctrinal differences. I believe those were addressed satisfactorily by DWBH.

Now if someone is "too poetic" and "too intellectual" for you I suppose that is a backhanded compliment of sorts. Fair enough.

However instead of asking him to downgrade - why don't you try upgrading yourself?!?!?!

Todd,

I think, and this is respectfully put, as a friend, it's because you're too poetic and flowery the way you psot and too intellectual in what you post.

I find it a lot of work reading them, and then very challenging to match both your style and the heady things you bring up. If you downgraded them to street style I could handle them better. That's just my opinion.

[mchud11]

I believe the question will never be answered. And I sort of still lean toward the idea that phenomena, this was phenomena (?), are like to glorify God. From what I have read, the majority is leaning toward a VPW-centered glorification.

The best I can do is drop 10 or 20 bucks when the glass ball with the tiny reproduction of the gas station with a tiny VPW peering out, the one you can shake up so the snow gently swirls around, with the wind up chime that plays "I come to the garden alone" gets on the market.

[seaspray]

Air, water, food and shelter. These are the reasons that you believe Wierwille's words are true?

How do you determine what is true and what is not?

What do you breathe? What do you eat and drink? Do you have a home that provides comfort?

Don't be discouraged in your quest for truth and life by naysayers and critics.

[krys]

Now if someone is "too poetic" and "too intellectual" for you I suppose that is a backhanded compliment of sorts.  Fair enough.

However instead of asking him to downgrade - why don't you try upgrading yourself?!?!?!

An excellent life strategy no matter which one of life's avenues an individual pursues.

[seaspray]

You're still in?

In Christ? Yeah, you bet!

There, I said it.

I love the Lord Jesus Christ (doesn't everyone?). I said it again.

Can you say peanut butter?

P.S. Raf, are you tappin' the acid again, or did you just fall down and hit your head on the sidewalk?

Edited January 21, 2009 by seaspray

[Bolshevik]

How do you determine what is true and what is not?

What do you breathe? What do you eat and drink? Do you have a home that provides comfort?

Don't be discouraged in your quest for truth and life by naysayers and critics.

yeah, uh. . beautiful questions and all,

I was kinda hoping for a more direct answer to my question?

. .

. . .

P.S. Raf, are you tappin' the acid again, or did you just fall down and hit your head on the sidewalk?

Mods!!!!

[waysider]

[Raf]

My skin's a little thicker than that, Bolshevik. :)

Glad to know where you stand, seaspray. My prayers are with you.

Be well.

[potato]

kinduva bummer how often this happens...plz permit me a moment to whine...

i feel that i've composed a few posts that contribute to the topic of this thread, perhaps even worthy of stimulating reasoned dialogue and debate that is relevant to our various trans-twi experiences.

yet, it seems the usual circular easier paths of argumentation are valued way more here

anyone else notice this?

anyone wonder why?

i do

legitimate questions, sirguessalot. I must look in the mirror to answer this, I know.

I have a gut level reaction that is very negative and angry when I hear people state PFAL=truth. I know intellectually that talking to them is a waste of my time. I guess I don't want them cluttering up what I think is a decent discussion otherwise, and I don't like the implications of their reasoning that vpw's version of things is the only truth that should be considered to reach god, therefore I must be given over to devil spirits, according to what vpw taught. it's not the things they say, it's all the things they don't say that are the logical conclusion of their insistence that PFAL=truth. it sticks in my craw and makes me angry in a way that goes deeper than any feeling I should have after attending a "bible study". it's not a logical reaction. it's a survival reaction.

[Bolshevik]

Followers of The Way International are pure evil. That's all there is to it.

[seaspray]

Where, oh where, have all the flowers gone? Maybe they're blowin' in the wind someplace and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard rain falling down there. (Did I get all the hards?) Anyhoo, one thing I know for sure. If we can come up with a way to stop the rain it'll be strawberry fields forever and ever. Amen. That's all I have to say about that.

One more thing, people are strange when you're a nowhere man and you got to learn how to live out on the street. And you're uptight about scrounging for your next meal. And someone busted your banjo. And Martha says you're a slob and don't know how to cook. And we're caught in a trap and we can't get out. And...

Edited January 21, 2009 by seaspray

[seaspray]

My skin's a little thicker than that, Bolshevik. :)

Glad to know where you stand, seaspray. My prayers are with you.

Be well.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

[seaspray]

Followers of The Way International are pure evil. That's all there is to it.

Are followers of the Way pure evil? Who is the Way?

Do you remember?

[seaspray]

Jeff put it well, as usual.

It's true, seaspray, but once you come to that realization, your recovery can begin.

The belief system you cling to was, to a large extent, concocted by a predator of God's people for the purpose of satisfying his lust for money, sex and power. Oh, his legacy includes many fond memories for you, and I won't begrudge you that. I had some good memories too. But I'd trade those good memories in a heartbeat if it would take away the pain and anguish suffered at Wierwille's hands by people whose only crime was a desire to get to know God better.

What's your point?

[seaspray]

Good one, Mike.

Interesting. See how easy it is to talk about Jesus Christ when you focus on the Bible rather than PFAL?

I'm just saying.

(and yes, I'm just kidding).

Honestly, I think there's a difference between being a sinner, which everyone is, and being sinister. Of necessity, God works with sinners (not a lot of options on that front). But to expect me to believe Wierwille is what you claim him to be, God would have to work not with a sinner, but with the sinister; not with a man who occasionally succumbed to evil, but with a man who occasionally rose above it; not with a man who failed to be what he knew to be, but a man who knew what he was and reveled in it.

You compare Wierwille to Saul the apostle, I to Saul the king. You compare Wierwille to the penitent sinner David, I to the unpenitent and ultimately disgraced Solomon. And that's being gracious, for it assumes that at some point there truly was a desire to serve God. Unfortunately, Wierwille ended up serving man, not in any noble sense, but he served man up to the altar of his own greed, his own lusts.

Do his misdeeds mark his entire life? No. Of course not. Most of the people he met, he did not hurt. Most of the people who heard him preach were inspired by it, I dare say. And bravo for that.

But he didn't need to prey upon more than a handful of God's people to earn the mark of predator. He didn't have to manipulate everyone he met to be a manipulator. As I've mentioned over and over: Jeffrey Dahmer only ate a miniscule fraction of the people he met over his lifetime. A teensy weensy... almost immeasurable percentage. Defend what you want of the cult leader Victor Paul Wierwille. He preyed upon God's people, in Christ's name. It wasn't merely sin. It was a calculated lifestyle of manipulation of Scripture and people for his own lustful ends.

Sad, yes. Tragic? Depends on his motives to begin with. A legacy? Maybe. He'll have the legacy of L. Ron Hubbard, Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy... when the final history of Victor Paul Wierwille is written, he will take his place among the second or third tier of those who traded in money and lives in Christ's name. He will be, perhaps, a footnote at best (ironic, considering his own failure to use such inconveniences).

And Christianity will move on.

There you go again, trying to think. Raf, take a break.

Edited January 21, 2009 by seaspray

[potato]

it's reruns of seaspray, circa 2003.

[Mark Clarke]

Followers of The Way International are pure evil. That's all there is to it.

Correction: Followers of The Way International are duped. The Organization itself is what is evil.

(And seaspray, please note we are talking about the organization known as The Way International, not followers of the Way, the Truth, and the Life, Who is Jesus Christ. There is a big difference.)

[Mark Clarke]

How do you determine what is true and what is not?

What do you breathe? What do you eat and drink? Do you have a home that provides comfort?

Don't be discouraged in your quest for truth and life by naysayers and critics.

It is God, not TWI or PFAL that provides us with what we need. It has nothing to do with whether we believe PFAL is God-breathed. I would ask you the same question: "How do you determine what is true and what is not?" How do you explain the obvious errors in PFAL, such as have been brought up here and in the Doctrinal Forum? Discussions can be carried on there so as not to derail this thread (not that it hasn't been derailed a lot already...)

[sirguessalot]

thanks potato...i can understand that

and mike...maybe help me here...

so you dont get poetry

(which isnt really poetry)

yet you point out figurative speech?!

:blink:

odd, if nothing else

i'll get back to you on the other stuff

Edited January 21, 2009 by sirguessalot

[Raf]

What's your point?

Read it again. Slowly. Sound out the words if it helps.

There you go again, trying to think. Raf, take a break.

When you start, I'll ...

Nope, sorry, won't stop thinking, not even for you.

[seaspray]

Not even for me?

[Mark Clarke]

Not thinking is what got us hooked in the illogical and senseless doctrines in the first place. "If God spoke directly to him then what he taught must be right even if I don't see how it makes sense."

[Ham]

kinduva bummer how often this happens...plz permit me a moment to whine...

i feel that i've composed a few posts that contribute to the topic of this thread, perhaps even worthy of stimulating reasoned dialogue and debate that is relevant to our various trans-twi experiences.

yet, it seems the usual circular easier paths of argumentation are valued way more here

anyone else notice this?

anyone wonder why?

i do

I think because there is a mix of people here, some have been here for years, others just discovered the place..

and I've observed the same pattern.. when assaulted (ahem, witnessed to) by these outlandish claims.. some of them can't understand why the crowd isn't "playing nice" and are jeering.. they might even feel a little sorry for the guy being "picked on"..

but soon they learn.. they follow this broken trail of logic, somehow welded on a loop.. offer suggestions.. some offer honest care and concern..

some of them get exasperated, and join the "jeering, persecuting" crowd..

some might just go away..

anyone wonder why?

Is it just POSSIBLE that some really like this kind of "attention", and can't get it any other way?

[Ham]

I'll admit.. I like attention generally as much as the next guy.. but people don't have to laugh at all my attempts at "humor"..

maybe I'll take it on the road- bill it as a comedy act not like its been heard since Paul was at the Three Taverns..

[waysider]

Is The Way Ministry the same organization as The Way International or The Way or even, simply, The Ministry?

Did you cross all your "t"s and dot all your "i"s? Did you spell all your words correctly and use proper syntax? Did you use any metaphors instead of "straight talk? Is there a difference between the collated and uncollated studies in abundant living? Did The Ministry begin on a Tuesday or a Thursday? Are there 73, not 74 or 72, witnesses who will submit notarized testimony? Were the gas pumps regular or high test? Was the wind blowing from the east or from the west? What was the wind chill? Did they measure wind chill in 1942?

None of it is really about PFAL or a snowstorm or a quest for The Truth or a concern for "accuracy and integrity".

No, it's about creating a smokescreen of dedication to some noble cause that never really existed.

Maybe there's a vicarious undercurrent

It's about exalting a demon to hero status.

It's about excusing his misdeeds and calloused abuses.

It's about desperately groping for any lifeline that might be used to pull a monster from a cesspool of depravity.

It's like placing a band aid on a festering, rotting wound and hoping no one will notice the awful stench.

Snowstorm? No snowstorm?

It doesn't really matter.

It can't change the debacle that's been buried in its drifts for all these years.

The snow is melting.

Edited January 21, 2009 by waysider