Sociopaths like him have no sense of guilt, so I don't think there were any nagging regrets he had to honestly make such a statement. Rather, I think it was just phoney humility used to "prove" his magnanimity. A conman to the very end, it was just more embrodiery for his fictitious resume'...
Do we really know if these are even his words? Chances are, based on his history, he paraphrased something that he heard and thought was clever. I don't believe he was ever any kind of spiritually enlightened guru. He was a common conman who used God as his bait.
This probably has come up before, but... are these words really on VPs' headstone ? What did he mean when he mentioned these words ? Did he acknowledge ( even if only to himself ) that he knew he had done things that were wrong, if only things could have been done the 'right way' ?
I really do think that he KNEW that he had done wrong and just couldn't help himself (spiritual) and that God had even bigger plans for him had he kept things on the godly straight and narrow. Ditto for LCM.
something my brother used to say was "if you've got wish in one hand and s*it in the other hand, what do you have?" and i think that's all of what "dr" wierwille ever had, and i don't think that he ever had anything "on the godly straight and narrow", and i base that not only on what i read here, but also on what my brother and sister used to say about the goings on at hq, in the motorcoach and at emporia. my brother also used to say "little stalks have big ears" but he forgot it when he and my sister "discussed" the things they saw with the "dr". craig is a whole other story i think because craig seemed to have been made into what he ended up being, and i don't remember anything but good about him and donna coming out of the mouths of my brother and sister, but i don't know personally about either the "dr" or craig or donna so maybe i'm just full of it, too, but how many victims and witnesses does it take before a person begins to understand these were not "godly" people at first, in the end or ever? i know the "dr" said that all the time because i heard it right out of his own mouth so often that i couldn't believe nobody got it that he was telling us all straight up that he was conning us, so it probably is on his headstone because i believe he was very proud of the con job he pulled off from the very beginning. why else say something like that? billy graham has never said any such thing, but jim bakker and jimmy swaggert and others of that ilk said it because they knew they weren't what they knew to be. so it's right back to having wish in one hand and s*it in the other. and how was it that "wish" was such a dirty word to everybody but the "dr"? yes he was a con man from the getgo and he knew it and was quite proud of it.
and one more thing is that the only other people i've ever heard such a thing come out of their mouths is abusers when they're trying to get to the honeymoon phase.
This probably has come up before, but... are these words really on VPs' headstone ? What did he mean when he mentioned these words ? Did he acknowledge ( even if only to himself ) that he knew he had done things that were wrong, if only things could have been done the 'right way' ?
I really do think that he KNEW that he had done wrong and just couldn't help himself (spiritual) and that God had even bigger plans for him had he kept things on the godly straight and narrow. Ditto for LCM.
yes, it is on his headstone or whatever it is. It means whatever the reader wants it too. twi was one long fantasy.
He's also rumored to have said "Father forgive me I think I've made a big mistake" on his deathbed. The idea is that putting lcm in charge was the mistake.
This probably has come up before, but... are these words really on VPs' headstone ? What did he mean when he mentioned these words ? Did he acknowledge ( even if only to himself ) that he knew he had done things that were wrong, if only things could have been done the 'right way' ?
I really do think that he KNEW that he had done wrong and just couldn't help himself (spiritual) and that God had even bigger plans for him had he kept things on the godly straight and narrow. Ditto for LCM.
"I WISH I'D BEEN THE MAN I KNEW MYSELF TO BE."
THAT was on his headstone. Along with his name, the birth-death years (dates? I forget that part)
and the words "Awaiting the Return".
Except for that sentence, it was standardized with the other 2 headstones.
Hearsay said he requested them for his headstone.
If you want my opinion, it's not an admission that he actually did bad things. As his years dwindled to days and hours,
one poster passed along that he kept searching his mind, trying to find where he'd missed it- the reason he was actually
dying- so he could solve it and magically heal.
That means he was deceiving people on his deathbed and KNEW it was all bunkum, or- as I see it-
that he'd succeeded in conning even HIMSELF, as he didn't see decades of fraud, of deception, of the love of filthy lucre,
of the druggings and rapes, of the using of people as things and the loving of things over people, as actually
BAD THINGS.
He never stopped and confessed having done wrong, and never lifted a finger to make amends to his victims.
It was never about other people- it was always about HIM. His illnesses and death were terrible because they were
sufferings endured by HIM, not causes for humility. If he really DID wish he did better, it was a wish for his
magical "believing" powers to kick in and magically heal him.
vpw had a lot of time to see his death coming. He spoke to many people as a result of his approaching death.
He NEVER told them "I have abused God's people" or anything like that. When he mentioned anything, it was how
other people were failing, or would fail by his predictions (which failed to come to pass.)
If he hadn't been an evil-minded person, he would have repented. Since he was completely given over to his
preferred forms of evil, he had no motive to repent, and I see no reason to even SUSPECT it.
Having Grown up in a household with an alcoholic... let me add
that a standard behavior for them is
any thing that is wrong is some one elses fault.
IF they have a problem it is all because you the kid wife or friend caused them to do what they did.
They are fine perfect to be admired and followed and everyone else is an idiot or dirt bag etc.
Taking a drink is all about them .. their life revolves completely around them.They do not for the most part ever once think about how their actions are affecting their own loved ones or those around them.
Weirdly everyone who is their friend always assumes the family or spouse is the bad ones even though they see the alcoholic drunk at some time.
Sexual Physical and mental abuse are common threads in the alcoholics life.. because everyone else is there for their amusement or pleasure.
IT is a given that Weirwille was an alcoholic. There are countless Eye Witness accounts of it.. Not to mention the accounts of sexual and mental abuse that went on daily with the so called Man of God.
Many people on here question his motives... but I lived with one .. My step dad, so maybe he originally had good motives but as with anything an alcoholic does even if it started out for a good reason it always turns into a self-centered endeavor.
Now before you all jump down my throat .. Not one person on here knows what really was in VP's heart or head for that matter, maybe originally he really wanted o do something good... but we do know what his outward actions showed.. a contempt for the people who chose to follow him, and a real effort to cheat people with lies and deceit.
Ben you are new to the grease spot spend some time reading some of the threads to get an idea of what some people on here have gone thru.
For me when I showed up here I had no Idea.. I was involved with the Way .. in the west with minimal contact with head quarters, and luckily for me the leaders I was around were mostly good people... so needless to say my journey here has been eye opening. I had a couple of encounters with VP that made me question his motives and goodness but as I only really ran across his path directly about 5 times in my Way experience I had no idea he was as bad as he was.
I will go make a list of just a few of the threads that really opened my eyes.
Some of them are long but you will never view the Way or VP the same way again.
jeeze! really? jeeze! what? was he standing beside himself whispering in his own ear saying "you know you're a better man than to be raping that precious young woman that trusts you to represent god" and yet didn't stop himself? well, that sure does describe the absolute control an abuser has over him or her self. anybody who thinks that the "dr" was anything but a cold and calculating and methodical and purposeful abuser, well you need to read the above sentence again and again until you get it that yes the "dr" knew exactly what he was doing and knew it was wrong and even apparently had conversations in his head while he was committing atrocities that he was telling himself it was wrong, but did it anyway.jeeze!
okay Ben or any othyer newbie after much searching thru places I posted. here are a few.. of the threads that touched my life and made me realize what a scumbag VP was
WAYDALE REPOST: Rafael Olmeda's Original Blue Book Commentary
Wierwille And Musicians
Euphemism: The Cold Wind of Change
Hunt Close !
Child Abuse in TWI
To see God, or not to see God.
Poll: VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?
The L.E.A.D. accident. What happened?
THE CROSS
TWI Financial Statement/Self-Supporting Twigs
if you search on those titles you will find a lot of info.. and those are only a few of the places I have read.. But I was a total Blabber mouth so there were lots of posts I made I went looking for the ones that spoke to me the most
also a huge help for me was listening to the grease spot radio shows.. very informative. I have listend to some of them twice now.
okay Ben or any othyer newbie after much searching thru places I posted. here are a few.. of the threads that touched my life and made me realize what a scumbag VP was
WAYDALE REPOST: Rafael Olmeda's Original Blue Book Commentary
if you search on those titles you will find a lot of info.. and those are only a few of the places I have read.. But I was a total Blabber mouth so there were lots of posts I made I went looking for the ones that spoke to me the most
also a huge help for me was listening to the grease spot radio shows.. very informative. I have listend to some of them twice now.
For anyone to have gone so low as to drug females in order to have sex with their unconscious bodies, that person definitely belonged in jail, I definitely wouldn't let them anywhere near me or my family, none the less want to sit at their feet and listen to anything they might have to say!
It is odd that people still say, he was nice to me, I saw him help people, he was different in the early days, I never had a problem with him, he never did those things to me...
The truth is, even OJ wants love, so I'm sure vpee did too..no one is all bad all the time, but it gets real hard to turn a blind eye (sorry about the unintentional pun) toward some of the things he did do, and grant him absolution...His tombstone should have read, "We wish he was the man we believed him to be"!!Â
For anyone to have gone so low as to drug females in order to have sex with their unconscious bodies, that person definitely belonged in jail, I definitely wouldn't let them anywhere near me or my family, none the less want to sit at their feet and listen to anything they might have to say!
It is odd that people still say, he was nice to me, I saw him help people, he was different in the early days, I never had a problem with him, he never did those things to me...
The truth is, even OJ wants love, so I'm sure vpee did too..no one is all bad all the time, but it gets real hard to turn a blind eye (sorry about the unintentional pun) toward some of the things he did do, and grant him absolution...His tombstone should have read, "We wish he was the man we believed him to be"!!Â
Sorry, still getting used to the 'fomat' ! So in twis' own reasoning...VP and LCMs' conscience must have become 'seared with that darn hot iron' ?! I mean, I still firmly believe in Satan and his minions and the spiritual battle for peoples minds and hearts, therefore I believe that between the two of 'em, they were entertaining the ol devil spirits, and then, what about ol Rosie ?
For those who still subscribe to the Advanced Class theology, you may want to think of VPW as the "AC Poster Child". He was an alcoholic, substance abuser, sexual predator, pathological liar, cancer victim (see death certificate) and all around walking, talking example of what he attributed to "devil possession". (as defined in the AC)
Sorry, still getting used to the 'fomat' ! So in twis' own reasoning...VP and LCMs' conscience must have become 'seared with that darn hot iron' ?! I mean, I still firmly believe in Satan and his minions and the spiritual battle for peoples minds and hearts, therefore I believe that between the two of 'em, they were entertaining the ol devil spirits, and then, what about ol Rosie ?
oh sure, the devil made them do it. that lets them be totally unaccountable. now i understand even better why the mind altering fixation on "devil spirits" in the way.
Rosalie, according to court documents knew what was going on with lcm. The people who worked with her have written extensively about what a heartless controlling witch she is.
I have never read or heard of a single decent or kind thing she has ever done for anybody. Not really the sort of person that you would think of as a christian.
Brainfixed, whether one believes 'debil spurts' were involved in the whole damn mess or not wouldn't seem to make any differnce as to the person being unaccountable or held unaccountable ? They still entertained and allowed it to happen. Problem is neither VP nor LCM, Rosal*e nor any of their mimetes were prepared to 'put their hand up'.
Brainfixed, whether one believes 'debil spurts' were involved in the whole damn mess or not wouldn't seem to make any differnce as to the person being unaccountable or held unaccountable ? They still entertained and allowed it to happen. Problem is neither VP nor LCM, Rosal*e nor any of their mimetes were prepared to 'put their hand up'.
Big Ben
I think I may have been the one who introduced the element of Devil Possession.
You are correct, though. (IMO)
They knew full well what was going on and did nothing to acknowledge or stop it. (as far as I know.)
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George Aar
Yeah, the words are on his headstone.
Sociopaths like him have no sense of guilt, so I don't think there were any nagging regrets he had to honestly make such a statement. Rather, I think it was just phoney humility used to "prove" his magnanimity. A conman to the very end, it was just more embrodiery for his fictitious resume'...
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waysider
Do we really know if these are even his words? Chances are, based on his history, he paraphrased something that he heard and thought was clever. I don't believe he was ever any kind of spiritually enlightened guru. He was a common conman who used God as his bait.
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brainfixed
something my brother used to say was "if you've got wish in one hand and s*it in the other hand, what do you have?" and i think that's all of what "dr" wierwille ever had, and i don't think that he ever had anything "on the godly straight and narrow", and i base that not only on what i read here, but also on what my brother and sister used to say about the goings on at hq, in the motorcoach and at emporia. my brother also used to say "little stalks have big ears" but he forgot it when he and my sister "discussed" the things they saw with the "dr". craig is a whole other story i think because craig seemed to have been made into what he ended up being, and i don't remember anything but good about him and donna coming out of the mouths of my brother and sister, but i don't know personally about either the "dr" or craig or donna so maybe i'm just full of it, too, but how many victims and witnesses does it take before a person begins to understand these were not "godly" people at first, in the end or ever? i know the "dr" said that all the time because i heard it right out of his own mouth so often that i couldn't believe nobody got it that he was telling us all straight up that he was conning us, so it probably is on his headstone because i believe he was very proud of the con job he pulled off from the very beginning. why else say something like that? billy graham has never said any such thing, but jim bakker and jimmy swaggert and others of that ilk said it because they knew they weren't what they knew to be. so it's right back to having wish in one hand and s*it in the other. and how was it that "wish" was such a dirty word to everybody but the "dr"? yes he was a con man from the getgo and he knew it and was quite proud of it.
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brainfixed
and one more thing is that the only other people i've ever heard such a thing come out of their mouths is abusers when they're trying to get to the honeymoon phase.
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waysider
Good point, brainfixed.
"Wish" was on the unwritten taboo word list for TWI believers and yet, there it is, etched in stone.
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waysider
Literal translation according to current usage:
"I hope you don't find out I'm not the man I pretended to be."
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Bolshevik
yes, it is on his headstone or whatever it is. It means whatever the reader wants it too. twi was one long fantasy.
He's also rumored to have said "Father forgive me I think I've made a big mistake" on his deathbed. The idea is that putting lcm in charge was the mistake.
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WordWolf
"I WISH I'D BEEN THE MAN I KNEW MYSELF TO BE."
THAT was on his headstone. Along with his name, the birth-death years (dates? I forget that part)
and the words "Awaiting the Return".
Except for that sentence, it was standardized with the other 2 headstones.
Hearsay said he requested them for his headstone.
If you want my opinion, it's not an admission that he actually did bad things. As his years dwindled to days and hours,
one poster passed along that he kept searching his mind, trying to find where he'd missed it- the reason he was actually
dying- so he could solve it and magically heal.
That means he was deceiving people on his deathbed and KNEW it was all bunkum, or- as I see it-
that he'd succeeded in conning even HIMSELF, as he didn't see decades of fraud, of deception, of the love of filthy lucre,
of the druggings and rapes, of the using of people as things and the loving of things over people, as actually
BAD THINGS.
He never stopped and confessed having done wrong, and never lifted a finger to make amends to his victims.
It was never about other people- it was always about HIM. His illnesses and death were terrible because they were
sufferings endured by HIM, not causes for humility. If he really DID wish he did better, it was a wish for his
magical "believing" powers to kick in and magically heal him.
vpw had a lot of time to see his death coming. He spoke to many people as a result of his approaching death.
He NEVER told them "I have abused God's people" or anything like that. When he mentioned anything, it was how
other people were failing, or would fail by his predictions (which failed to come to pass.)
If he hadn't been an evil-minded person, he would have repented. Since he was completely given over to his
preferred forms of evil, he had no motive to repent, and I see no reason to even SUSPECT it.
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leafytwiglet
Having Grown up in a household with an alcoholic... let me add
that a standard behavior for them is
any thing that is wrong is some one elses fault.
IF they have a problem it is all because you the kid wife or friend caused them to do what they did.
They are fine perfect to be admired and followed and everyone else is an idiot or dirt bag etc.
Taking a drink is all about them .. their life revolves completely around them.They do not for the most part ever once think about how their actions are affecting their own loved ones or those around them.
Weirdly everyone who is their friend always assumes the family or spouse is the bad ones even though they see the alcoholic drunk at some time.
Sexual Physical and mental abuse are common threads in the alcoholics life.. because everyone else is there for their amusement or pleasure.
IT is a given that Weirwille was an alcoholic. There are countless Eye Witness accounts of it.. Not to mention the accounts of sexual and mental abuse that went on daily with the so called Man of God.
Many people on here question his motives... but I lived with one .. My step dad, so maybe he originally had good motives but as with anything an alcoholic does even if it started out for a good reason it always turns into a self-centered endeavor.
Now before you all jump down my throat .. Not one person on here knows what really was in VP's heart or head for that matter, maybe originally he really wanted o do something good... but we do know what his outward actions showed.. a contempt for the people who chose to follow him, and a real effort to cheat people with lies and deceit.
Ben you are new to the grease spot spend some time reading some of the threads to get an idea of what some people on here have gone thru.
For me when I showed up here I had no Idea.. I was involved with the Way .. in the west with minimal contact with head quarters, and luckily for me the leaders I was around were mostly good people... so needless to say my journey here has been eye opening. I had a couple of encounters with VP that made me question his motives and goodness but as I only really ran across his path directly about 5 times in my Way experience I had no idea he was as bad as he was.
I will go make a list of just a few of the threads that really opened my eyes.
Some of them are long but you will never view the Way or VP the same way again.
and Welcome to Grease Spot.
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brainfixed
jeeze! really? jeeze! what? was he standing beside himself whispering in his own ear saying "you know you're a better man than to be raping that precious young woman that trusts you to represent god" and yet didn't stop himself? well, that sure does describe the absolute control an abuser has over him or her self. anybody who thinks that the "dr" was anything but a cold and calculating and methodical and purposeful abuser, well you need to read the above sentence again and again until you get it that yes the "dr" knew exactly what he was doing and knew it was wrong and even apparently had conversations in his head while he was committing atrocities that he was telling himself it was wrong, but did it anyway. jeeze!
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leafytwiglet
okay Ben or any othyer newbie after much searching thru places I posted. here are a few.. of the threads that touched my life and made me realize what a scumbag VP was
WAYDALE REPOST: Rafael Olmeda's Original Blue Book Commentary
Wierwille And Musicians
Euphemism: The Cold Wind of Change
Hunt Close !
Child Abuse in TWI
To see God, or not to see God.
Poll: VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?
The L.E.A.D. accident. What happened?
THE CROSS
TWI Financial Statement/Self-Supporting Twigs
if you search on those titles you will find a lot of info.. and those are only a few of the places I have read.. But I was a total Blabber mouth so there were lots of posts I made I went looking for the ones that spoke to me the most
also a huge help for me was listening to the grease spot radio shows.. very informative. I have listend to some of them twice now.
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WordWolf
Why Some People Don't Get the Abuse Stories
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=136
The Way:Living in Wonderland
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7363
VP and Me in Wonderland
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=8019
HELP! The PFAL class was stolen
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=277
TWI: Getting rid of sin, ignoring the cross of Christ
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=405
The mirror-what am I doing and offering people today?
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=6373
Do mothers worry about their children?
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=6808
Rough recollections-history and overview of TWI.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4495
vpw's plagiarized sources, the origins of each book?
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=8966
vpw on the sources of his books., what was his official stance?
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=8645
Shall we forgive them all?
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=11437
Your opinion: vpw, his sins, and what he did.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=9755
Who was Victor Paul Wierwille?
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=6301
Who was L. Craig Martindale?
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=6468
Who is Rosalie Fox Rivenbark?
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=6604
Balaam and twi.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=15366
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leafytwiglet
Thanks Word Wolf. I had the list almost done when I realized I hadn't added links in.
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now I see
For anyone to have gone so low as to drug females in order to have sex with their unconscious bodies, that person definitely belonged in jail, I definitely wouldn't let them anywhere near me or my family, none the less want to sit at their feet and listen to anything they might have to say!
It is odd that people still say, he was nice to me, I saw him help people, he was different in the early days, I never had a problem with him, he never did those things to me...
The truth is, even OJ wants love, so I'm sure vpee did too..no one is all bad all the time, but it gets real hard to turn a blind eye (sorry about the unintentional pun) toward some of the things he did do, and grant him absolution...His tombstone should have read, "We wish he was the man we believed him to be"!!Â
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Big Ben
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Big Ben
Sorry, still getting used to the 'fomat' ! So in twis' own reasoning...VP and LCMs' conscience must have become 'seared with that darn hot iron' ?! I mean, I still firmly believe in Satan and his minions and the spiritual battle for peoples minds and hearts, therefore I believe that between the two of 'em, they were entertaining the ol devil spirits, and then, what about ol Rosie ?
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waysider
For those who still subscribe to the Advanced Class theology, you may want to think of VPW as the "AC Poster Child". He was an alcoholic, substance abuser, sexual predator, pathological liar, cancer victim (see death certificate) and all around walking, talking example of what he attributed to "devil possession". (as defined in the AC)
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brainfixed
oh sure, the devil made them do it. that lets them be totally unaccountable. now i understand even better why the mind altering fixation on "devil spirits" in the way.
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rascal
Ben,
Rosalie, according to court documents knew what was going on with lcm. The people who worked with her have written extensively about what a heartless controlling witch she is.
I have never read or heard of a single decent or kind thing she has ever done for anybody. Not really the sort of person that you would think of as a christian.
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now I see
Speaking of Rozilla, what is being done with the corpse chalet since she moved donna out of it and into founder's hall?
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Ham
Interesting..
so.. is that a half-way point on the way to living on the street?
What's she doing in founder's hall anyway.. "coordinating" a broom closet?
pathetic..
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Big Ben
Brainfixed, whether one believes 'debil spurts' were involved in the whole damn mess or not wouldn't seem to make any differnce as to the person being unaccountable or held unaccountable ? They still entertained and allowed it to happen. Problem is neither VP nor LCM, Rosal*e nor any of their mimetes were prepared to 'put their hand up'.
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waysider
Big Ben
I think I may have been the one who introduced the element of Devil Possession.
You are correct, though. (IMO)
They knew full well what was going on and did nothing to acknowledge or stop it. (as far as I know.)
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excathedra
i wish he was the man i thought he was
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