Because, soul searcher, in TWI speak, there is, as it were, an omitted word.
In Authorised/KJ Version (as used by TWI):
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal .
VPW logic said (and I could be wrong on this) that the "one" and "another" in verses 8-10 should relate back to the nearest noun and chose "profit" for this: whereas, really, in the KJV translation, the nearest noun is not "profit" but "manifestation".
However, the Interlinear renders verse 7 as: "but to each is given the manifestation of the spirit for profit."
Which uses "profit" as a noun.
Maybe it's a noun; could be a verb as KJV - I don't know enough Greek to say.
On VPW's logic using KJV, it shouldn't be different profits [benefits] but different manifestations.
And the "profits" are first to bless the person, then to bless the body of believers.
8 For to one [profit/manifestation] is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another [profit/manifestation] the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another [profit/manifestation] faith by the same Spirit; to another [profit/manifestation] the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another [profit/manifestation] the working of miracles; to another [profit/manifestation] prophecy; to another [profit/manifestation] discerning of spirits; to another [profit/manifestation] divers kinds of tongues; to another [profit/manifestation] the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally [interlinear: separately] as he [the man] will [desires].
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body [=manifestations of the spirit], being many, are one body: so also is Christ [=the spirit of Christ].
I simply note that many churchgoers talk of the "gifts" of the spirit and desire "the gift of tongues". The word "manifestation" is from a root word meaning "to render apparent; appeer, manifestly declare, show" and that root word itself is derived from a word meaning "evidently, openly." So nothing about "gifts" there, lots of individual gifts or one bigger gift; only about something being obvious.
Whatever, TWI view is that everyone has the full package of holy spirit and has the ability to manifest all 9 of the manifestations.
I went back and read the KJV and, notwithstanding "VPW's logic", the underlying message seems the same: to each his or her own gift. Maybe some of us are lucky enough to receive and manifest more than one gift, but most of us aren't. Or, at best, some of us may be more talented at one gift over another. At any rate, it seems to me that SIT is not available to everyone.
P.S. You had the honor and distinction of replying to my 100th post.
Please forgive the length of this post, but I considered it important enough to share what I have on the manifestations (of the gift of holy spirit) once and for all - in detail...
When were born physically, the seed contained all that we needed. All the potential for what we were to become was inherent in the seed from our father (and in what the mother contributed as well). After being born we were nourished with food, etc, and grew.
The new birth is just like that. All that we need for our spiritual life is contained in the seed [Greek word is spermo] from God. We receive the one gift of holy spirit which alone carries with it all the potential for living spiritually. (I call this our "spiritual DNA".) There has been literally no end of confusion among many Christians by supposing we need to receive something extra for our spiritual life – they erroneously call these "the gifts of the spirit". We shall see that we already have all of these to begin with – and that God calls these manifestations, not gifts.
To see this we will be looking very closely at 1Co 12:
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [text is pneumatikos – spiritual matters, things of the spirit], gifts [the word gifts is not in the text] brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Now, spiritual matters do include gifts, but not all spiritual matters are gifts. God has devoted three entire chapters (1Co 12-14) to cover the subject of spiritual matters. We see the context come to a close in the following verse:
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
So we see that God started by saying he doesn’t want us to be ignorant concerning spiritual matters, and concluded by saying that if anybody doesn’t want to hear about it, then just leave him alone – let him be ignorant. Christian teachers are not to force feed anyone. If someone is hungry and asks, then we feed him until he says he has had enough to eat – this is the only polite way to be!
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
God continues to instruct the Corinthians about some spiritual matters. Then in verse 4 He mentions the word gifts – [Greek is charisma – from this we get our English word charismatic, meaning gifted.]
We must watch the context very closely to look for any changes. Now we are talking about gifts (which are included within spiritual matters).
Next, we will see about administrations and operations, which are also spiritual matters:
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
Now, in the next verse, watch how it changes!
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
Notice we have now changed the context from gifts and administrations and operations to the manifestation of the spirit. It is the Greek word phanerosis, not charisma (gift)! And it says, but the manifestation. This word but sets this in stark contrast to that which preceded.
It goes on to say that this is given to every man. This cannot mean that everyone on the planet has it! We must remember that in the context God is talking to "brethren" (verse 1). Brothers have the same father. God is talking to his children; they are the ones which have the ability to manifest this spirit. The others do not even have it to begin with.
So, it says the manifestation of the spirit – that means all of it – anything which may be manifested (or evidenced) by way of the spirit.
One final (but very, very important) note on this verse: The purpose of the (entire) manifestation of this spirit (given to all of God’s kids) is to profit withal… see it again:
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
This means that the overall purpose is for every man (and collectively, the entire body of Christ as well) to profit all the way through, so that all the manifestation is evidenced – not just a part of it.
Now comes the tricky part. Most Christians are taught that the verses following are talking about individuals (for to one…to another…to another). How can God say that all the manifestation is given to every man, and then turn right around and say that one piece is given to one man and another piece to another man, etc? Well, he doesn’t!
In grammar, the phrase to prophet withal is an infinitive phrase. The words which follow must connect with this phrase to further elaborate on it. This is what verses 8-10 do.
God has structured this very wonderfully. First, in verse 7 he makes it plain that every man (believer) may bring forth (all) the manifestation of the (gift of) spirit, so that he may make full use of it in every way – to profit withal – all the way through. Having said that, he now breaks the entire manifestation up into its nine separate categories. Each one of these profits a little by itself; and what you have when you put them all together is to profit withal – by manifesting all of them! Then in verse 11, God brings the context right back to where he started in verse 7, putting them all back together again and telling us more about it as a whole unit again. In fact, verse 11 has some very illuminating truth in it as well!
1Co 12:8 For [the reason why we can profit withal is:] to one [one way to profit a little] is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another [more profit] the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another [even further profit] faith by the same Spirit; to another [even more!] the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another [and more] the working of miracles; to another [and more] prophecy; to another [getting bored?—ha ha] discerning of spirits; to another [even more profit] divers kinds of tongues; to another [lastly] the interpretation of tongues: [now we have it all!]
11 But all these…
A note of explanation is due about one of these, however. You may have noticed that the manifestation of healings is also called a gift (gifts of healings). This is simply because it is the only one of these which is also a gift. In the first (or natural) birth, God graciously endowed our physical bodies with the ability to heal themselves. A doctor might reset a broken bone, but it is self-mending. The same is true with cuts, scrapes, and a host of other things. We may provide medications, salves, ointments, and bandages, etc, but the healing process itself has been built in. The body of Christ is no different. God has built this into our new birth.
Basically, in order to manifest this one, a person has to operate it by asking God if a gift is there to have. If it is, and the recipient is believing for it, then it will be manifested (come into concretion in the senses realm). Such was the case in Act 3:6:
Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Spiritually, Peter had asked God if there was a gift for the lame man, and there was. We know he received this gift of healing from God when he said "such as I have give I thee". He received this gift from God and gave it to the believing man and he was healed.
Healing is always a gift – if it is there, then fine – if not, God has a reason. I should say, however, one is usually available when the receiver is truly believing for it.
Moving on now…
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The above verse requires quite a bit of explanation in light of how it has been portrayed of late; and the trend is getting worse and worse with each new translation that comes along!
We just saw how God has made all of these available to every man so he can operate this gift to its full extent, profiting in every category. But ministers and teachers the world over have tried to make this verse sound as if God picks and chooses who gets what. And for the most part, it usually winds up that their students do not believe sufficiently enough to operate any of them! Those that are blessed enough to have one or the other are many times so blessed and thankful that to them it might seem greedy to have more of them, supposing that their fellow believers would have those ones, and together somehow they could enjoy all of them as a group.
Surely, it does work this way in practice. Many people do have their specialties and long suits among these, and many times deliverance comes to people when Christians operate together as a team, but to deny a Christian his full potential by teaching wrongly is a pitiful shame!
The truth is, God wants each of his children to enjoy operating all of these, while the devil wants just the opposite. If he can talk Christians out of believing they have all of this power, then that’s just less worry for him that every one of God’s kids just might manifest enough to stomp all over him and his host of devil-spirit helpers!
In my humble opinion, 1Co 12:11 has been translated horribly in many versions. For your enlightenment, below are some of the renderings. Please forgive me for the long list; I merely wanted the reader to see just how rampantly out of control this verse has become over the years. It is difficult to find any new version these days which is rendered accurately, and it appears that many of them just make it up as they go, text or not! Only the first two are actually faithful to the text. (Do take note of the intentional capitalization of the pronoun "he" in many of these.):
A Comparison of I Corinthians 12:11 among various versions:
(AV – 1611 King James)
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
(Revised Standard)
11 All these are inspired by one the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
(Living Bible)
11 It is the same and only Holy Spirit who gives all these gifts and powers, deciding which each one of us should have.
(GWV – God’s Word to the Nations)
11 There is only one Spirit who does all these things by giving what God wants to give to each person.
(Weymouth)
11 But these results are all brought about by one and the same Spirit, who bestows His gifts upon each of us in accordance with His own will.
(New International Version)
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
(New American Standard Bible)
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
(Amplified Bible)
11 All these [gifts, achievements, abilities] are inspired and brought to pass by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, Who apportions to each person individually [exactly] as He chooses.
(New Living Translation)
11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.
(Contemporary English Version)
11 But it is the Spirit who does all this and decides which gifts to give to each of us.
(New King James Version)
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
(New Century Version)
11 One Spirit, the same Spirit, does all these things, and the Spirit decides what to give each person.
(21st Century King James Version)
11 But all of these that one and the selfsame Spirit worketh, apportioning to every man individually as He will.
(Young's Literal Translation)
11 and all these doth work the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally as he intendeth.
(Holman Christian Standard Bible)
11 But one and the same Spirit is active in all these, distributing to each one as He wills.
(New International Reader's Version)
11 All of the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives them to each person, just as he decides.
(New International Version - UK)
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
(Today's New International Version)
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
(Worldwide English (New Testament))
11 And the same Spirit gives the power for all these things. He gives each person what he wants to give to them.
That was quite a list! After reading all those, one just might wonder if God is really the one who chooses after all, just because there are so many versions which say that.
I tell ya what – put a thousand counterfeit dollar bills that all look alike next to just one good bill – and the good bill is still the only true one!
Now, we will see exactly what this verse is saying by taking a closer look at it, considering the words I have put in italics:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The verb worketh is the Greek word energeo, from which we derive our English word energize, and Spirit is referring to God himself. It is God who provides the energy to bring these to pass in the physical realm. The word dividing simply means distributing.
So far, the verse is saying, But all these are energized by the one and selfsame Spirit (God), distributing to every man… As noted earlier, we know every man refers to brethren, the born-again believers.
Now comes the interesting phrase, severally as he will Does the pronoun "he" refer to God or to the man? It seems to most people that it could be either one. But we cannot afford to just guess and hope we are correct! That is not doing honest research.
If we know just a little about English grammar, we can readily see that it should refer to the man, which is the "closest antecedent" to the pronoun he. However, I have found that this is usually not enough proof for most people because those who actually enjoyed learning about grammar in school seem to be but a few. So we will "dig a bit deeper" to see the truth here…
The word severally is the Greek word idios. This word appears over one hundred times in the Greek New Testament, and is usually translated one’s own, his own, her own, its own, etc. Below is an example of this word idios when it was translated private:
2Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Since the word private is idios, the verse might be rendered, …"no prophecy of the scripture is of any one’s own interpretation", which means that we are not to just interpret it however we want to. As the author of the Bible, God has been very diligent to make himself perfectly clear to those who allow the scriptures to speak for themselves, instead of reading into it on their own (idios).
We can easily see how the translators were accurate in rendering idios as private here; if it is someone’s private matter, it is essentially his own matter. In fact, we get our English word idiosyncrasy from it, which is "anyone’s own particular or peculiar way of doing things". And again, God does not wish us to interpret his scriptures this way; he said this is the first thing we need to know!
Now, back to 1Co 12:11…
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
This is the only verse in the Bible where the translators rendered idios as severally. Personally, I believe it obscures the entire meaning from view. Why weren’t they consistent with the rest of the places where they translated it one’s own, or in this case, his own? Consider what it is really saying now: …dividing to every man his own as he will. The word "he" refers to the man – and one doesn’t even need to be a grammar nut to see that now! And this fits in context with all we have seen from verse 7 on.
God had said that "the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit all the way through", making full use of the gift of holy spirit he gave to us. He then broke it up into nine components, showing that each one has its unique profit. And now in verse 11 he has put them all back together as a unit, explaining to us that he will energize each one of these as we will. It is our responsibility and privilege to operate this gift of holy spirit in all of its parts as we will – that is to say, as we desire or as we believe. It is up to us to endeavor to find out about each of these and put them to use. If we don’t, they just won’t happen on their own, for God only energizes them as the man wills.
And even for all of this explanation, I am sure there are many who either don’t get it, or will even refuse to because they just cannot let go of what they have been taught already.
So just why are these things true? The very next verse tells us!
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
As we see above, the next verse begins with for, which gives the reason for what he has shown thus far about his children utilizing all of the manifestations – making full use of the his gift of holy spirit. God is now going to explain these things by using the analogy of our human bodies to show us that physical things have been designed very similar to spiritual things, so we can relate them and get some wonderful understanding.
In a normal birth a baby has a body and all the physical parts to go with it. (feet, hands, ears, eyes, a nose, etc.) When you read from verse 13 on, you will see that these same parts are also incorporated into the body of Christ as well, in the spiritual sense. Let us not complicate matters. For now, let us keep it simple. Each one of the born-again believers has Christ in him:
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
We have the same ability which Jesus had on Earth! That is why we can do the works that he did (Jn 14:12). He is God’s son, and we are also now God’s children: Beloved, now are we the sons of God…(1Jn 3:2).
First, we must realize that each of us is like Christ (spiritually) for we each have Christ in us. Then collectively, we are all part of the spiritual body of Christ as well. If you try to visualize this, it may be a bit confusing. Just remember, it is not a literal fact! God is merely using the human body as an analogy to relate spiritual truths to us in a way in which we can understand.
Just as it is necessary to use all of our body parts to live well physically, it is also God’s wish that we learn to utilize these manifestations as well, for they are akin to "spiritual body parts". If someone does not have the use of a leg for instance, we might say he is "physically challenged". Do we want to be considered "spiritually challenged" by not wanting to use all these spiritual body parts? I would hope not! God has made them all available to us by way of the "spiritual DNA" contained in the seed [Greek word is spermo] we received from him.
I like that "spiritual DNA" concept. I do think that we all may have the "potential" for each of the manifestations but the reality is that people tend to specialize in certain vocations that suit their tempraments. We're all good at certain things and not so good at other things.
...We have the same ability which Jesus had on Earth! That is why we can do the works that he did (Jn 14:12). He is God's son, and we are also now God's children: Beloved, now are we the sons of God…(1Jn 3:2).
First, we must realize that each of us is like Christ (spiritually) for we each have Christ in us. Then collectively, we are all part of the spiritual body of Christ as well. If you try to visualize this, it may be a bit confusing. Just remember, it is not a literal fact! God is merely using the human body as an analogy to relate spiritual truths to us in a way in which we can understand.
Just as it is necessary to use all of our body parts to live well physically, it is also God's wish that we learn to utilize these manifestations as well, for they are akin to "spiritual body parts". If someone does not have the use of a leg for instance, we might say he is "physically challenged". Do we want to be considered "spiritually challenged" by not wanting to use all these spiritual body parts? I would hope not! God has made them all available to us by way of the "spiritual DNA" contained in the seed [Greek word is spermo] we received from him.
SPEC
I was born with a syndrome that challenges me. I have always hoped I am not "Spiritually Challeged" in some disabling way. But wanting and doing,... therein lies the rub. I've had to learn to "live with" my physical challenges, having no alternative but to do so,... so far. But I was hoping I'm not "damaged from the factory" so to speak - spiritually. But your post makes me think of this, SPEC. And I wonder if there's truth to that. After all God allowed me to be born with something I could "work around" but never conqueor (at least not yet) physically. Perhaps He does this to people spiritually as well...?
I was born with a syndrome that challenges me. I have always hoped I am not "Spiritually Challeged" in some disabling way. But wanting and doing,... therein lies the rub. I've had to learn to "live with" my physical challenges, having no alternative but to do so,... so far.
That's what I'm saying. Not everybody is capable of doing everything. We're all challenged in various ways.
While there may be good spiritual or psychological reasons to SIT (whatever we mean by that), I don't think that SIT, in and of itself, is a "critical indicator" or a natural manifestation of holy spirit. The SIT that I've heard my ex-Way friend speak may mean something between her and God, but it's not the same phenomenon as what happened to the apostles at Pentecost, I'm pretty sure of that.
Just as it is necessary to use all of our body parts to live well physically, it is also God’s wish that we learn to utilize these manifestations as well, for they are akin to "spiritual body parts". If someone does not have the use of a leg for instance, we might say he is "physically challenged". Do we want to be considered "spiritually challenged" by not wanting to use all these spiritual body parts? I would hope not! God has made them all available to us by way of the "spiritual DNA" contained in the seed [Greek word is spermo] we received from him.
Thinking about it some more...
Another counter-argument to mine would be that "message of wisdom" is the first manifestation mentioned in the list. And of course I believe that all individuals should maximize their message-of-wisdom skills, regardless of how good they think they are at it.
I was born with a syndrome that challenges me. I have always hoped I am not "Spiritually Challeged" in some disabling way. But wanting and doing,... therein lies the rub. I've had to learn to "live with" my physical challenges, having no alternative but to do so,... so far. But I was hoping I'm not "damaged from the factory" so to speak - spiritually. But your post makes me think of this, SPEC. And I wonder if there's truth to that. After all God allowed me to be born with something I could "work around" but never conqueor (at least not yet) physically. Perhaps He does this to people spiritually as well...?
Dearest Gen-2
You must never, ever allow yourself to believe you are "damaged from the factory",. We are what we are. Some of us have more fingers and toes than others. Some of us have less. Some can charm a nightingale with their song while others can peel paint. Some have one eye that just sits there taking up space, while others pop on the 3-d glasses and take great delight in movies like Avatar. But, spiritually? Nope. I don't buy it. If you are a God believing type of person, it might interest you to know that "God is no respecter of persons."
Another counter-argument to mine would be that "message of wisdom" is the first manifestation mentioned in the list. And of course I believe that all individuals should maximize their message-of-wisdom skills, regardless of how good they think they are at it.
This is RIGHT ON "in my book", soul searcher! Wisdom is the very foundation of beginning to learn and apply the other manifestations - IT IS KEY!
Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
I have written a 12 page commentary on 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Above is a link to it. This was written a few years ago and I have already had other people help with the editing of it. I spent a lot of time studying, editing and writing this so if someone reads it they can learn a lot in a relatively short period of time.
I have written a 12 page commentary on 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Above is a link to it. This was written a few years ago and I have already had other people help with the editing of it. I spent a lot of time studying, editing and writing this so if someone reads it they can learn a lot in a relatively short period of time.
DARN IT ALL MARK!
I read your 12-page commentary. For the most part, it was very well done!
However, I am astounded that you entirely missed the point that it is THE BELIEVER who "wills" to operate these! I quote from your article:
Finally, there is only one God who not only gives, but determines. The last words of verse 11 state “and he gives them (the manifestation of the spirit) to each one, just as he determines” (NIV). We see in this verse a giver, who we already know from the scriptures is God, and a receiver who weknow is man. Now of the two whom do you think determines? “As he (God) determines” also fits with the immediate context of this chapter.
With all your wonderful knowledge and experience of using Greek lexicons, concordances, etc, (as shown in your 12-page treatise) I am truly AMAZED that you could still say it is God who determines what each believer operates - WHETHER HE BELIEVES OR NOT!
How could you possibly entirely miss the point I made about IDIOS, (his own), translated erroneously as "severally" in 1Co 12:11?
With all your research experience, don't you see that the phrase "dividing to every man severally as he will" correctly translates into dividing to "every man his own as he will"?
Why did you choose to focus solely on the NIV version "and he gives them (the manifestation of the spirit) to each one, just as he determines"?
You even know yourself that the New International Version is NOT RENDERED faithfully from the Critical Greek Texts, but "paraphrased throughout", according to what the translators THOUGHT IT MEANT!
And isn't that a prime example of PRIVATE (idios) INTERPRETATION, which is contrary to the very first thing God would have us to know?
I am astounded at you. I said at the beginning of my "long post" that I had done this "once and for all." I suppose you "chimed in" to make me go back on my words - for here I am - explaining the same points all over again!
I am sure you are very knowledgeable of the scriptures. In that event, let me remind you sir: This post is your "second admonition"...
SPEC
:)
PS: I was also a personal friend of Peter J. Wade as well (many years ago). I do not believe even he would concur with your idea of God making us to be like "puppets on a string"!
You must have heard your puppets on a string analogy from place else. However, even Victor Wierwille said that we can not go beyond what we are taught. Without God's ability given to us we have and know nothing of value.
I suppose you "chimed in" to make me go back on my words - for here I am - explaining the same points all over again!
And for your information I never even read your long post. I simply saw a thread on this subject. I have done a lot of research on it and so I posted it. And your comments are unnecessary because at least 5 other people have already analyzed my article when I orginally wrote it. It has been already edited a number of times. And yes 1 Corinthians 12:11 was part of that editing.
However, I did read your latest post and I am hearing now an attitude that I am your competition on this subject. Why is that Spectrum? If you consider yourself a teacher why would you feel threatened by another teacher? Doesn't the bible say teachers (plural) and not teachers (singular)?
And below is some bible commentary written by other bible teachers on 1 Corinthians 12:11.
1 Corinthians 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
As he will. The Spirit is the sovereign dispenser of the gifts. The words are a key to the following section, showing those apparently more favored in the gifts that there is no self-merit in them, and those less favored that there is no lack of importance for them (cf. Godet, op. cit., II, 206).
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
[but all these worketh that one and the self-same Spirit] All these gifts are miraculously bestowed; they cannot be acquired by human art or industry, the different languages excepted; but they were given in such a way, and in such circumstances, as sufficiently proved that they also were miraculous gifts.
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
[but all these] All these various endowments.
[Worketh] Produces. All these are to be traced to him.
[That one and the self-same Spirit] The Holy Spirit, Acts 2. They were all, though so different in themselves, to be traced to the Holy Spirit, just as all the natural endowments of people-their strength, memory, judgment, etc. -though so various in themselves are to be traced to the same God.
[Dividing to every man severally] Conferring on each one as he pleases. He confers on each one that which he sees to be best, and most wise, and proper.
[As he will] As he chooses or as in his view seems best. Dr. Doddridge remarks, that this word does "not so much express arbitrary pleasure, as a determination founded on "wise" counsel." It implies, however, that he does it as a sovereign; as he sees to be right and best. He distributes these favors as to him seems best adapted to promote the welfare of the whole church and to advance his cause. Some of the doctrines which are taught by this verse are the following:
(l) The Holy Spirit is a "person." For, he acts as a person; distributes favors, confers endowments and special mercies "as he will." This proves that he is, in some respects, distinguished from the Father and the Son. It would be absurd to say of an "attribute" of God, that it confers favors, and distributes the various endowments of speaking with tongues, and raising the dead. And if so, then the Holy Spirit is "not" an attribute of God.
(2) He is a sovereign. He gives to all as he pleases. In regard to spiritual endowments of the highest order, he deals with people as he does in the common endowments bestowed upon people, and as he does in temporal blessings. He does not bestow the same blessings on all, nor make all alike. He dispenses his favors by a rule which he has not made known, but which, we may be assured, is in accordance with wisdom and goodness. He wrongs no one; and he gives to all the favors which might be connected with eternal life.
(3) No man should be proud of his endowments. Whatever they may be, they are the gifts of God, bestowed by his sovereign will and mercy. But assuredly we should not be proud of that which is the mere "gift" of another, and which has been bestowed, not in consequence of any merit of ours, but according to his mere sovereign will.
(4) No man should be depressed, or should despise his own gifts, however humble they may be. In their own place, they may be as important as the higher endowments of others. That God has placed him where he is, or has given less splendid endowments than he has to others, is no fault of his. There is no crime in it; and he should, therefore, strive to improve his "one talent," and to make himself useful in the rank where he is placed. And,
(5) No man should despise another because be is in a more bumble rank, or is less favored than himself. God has made the difference, and we should respect and honor his arrangements, and should show that "respect" and "honor" by regarding with kindness, and treating as fellow laborers with us, all who occupy a more humble rank than we do.
Have you ever read Receiving the Holy Spirit Today?
Thanks, Waysider. Actually that may have been among the several pieces of literature by Weirwille that my ex-Way friend sent me, but which I have since deleted off my hard drive.
I'm still listening to some classes from CFFM. I'm sure they'll cover it.
I was born with a syndrome that challenges me. I have always hoped I am not "Spiritually Challeged" in some disabling way. But wanting and doing,... therein lies the rub. I've had to learn to "live with" my physical challenges, having no alternative but to do so,... so far. But I was hoping I'm not "damaged from the factory" so to speak - spiritually. But your post makes me think of this, SPEC. And I wonder if there's truth to that. After all God allowed me to be born with something I could "work around" but never conqueor (at least not yet) physically. Perhaps He does this to people spiritually as well...?
Physically, none of us is perfect.
It's personal belief that each Christian (and I see I Corinthians 12 and 14 agreeing with this)
has certain strengths and areas where they lack strength.
Begin teaching a room of Christians on any subject, and I think several will say
"What?", several will say "Hm," several will say "AHA!" and several will say "Well, of course!"
Some, as soon as you begin an introduction, will begin "connecting the dots".
That's personal inclination, interests, and personality.
Account for that, and-even if all Christians HAVE been give an identical Spirit with 9 or more
POTENTIAL enablements- you'll see an incredible variety on what they do and how they do it.
Heck, just take the subject of Divine Revelation/word of knowledge, and how they'll approach
...And for your information I never even read your long post. I simply saw a thread on this subject. I have done a lot of research on it and so I posted it. And your comments are unnecessary because at least 5 other people have already analyzed my article when I orginally wrote it. It has been already edited a number of times. And yes 1 Corinthians 12:11 was part of that editing.
However, I did read your latest post and I am hearing now an attitude that I am your competition on this subject. Why is that Spectrum? If you consider yourself a teacher why would you feel threatened by another teacher? Doesn't the bible say teachers (plural) and not teachers (singular)?
Sorry Mark. I acted a bit hastily. I had merely "assumed" you had originally read my post.
No. I do not consider that we are in a competition. Everyone here at Greasespot has the right to read and form their own opinions of what others say.
Your recent post contained a lot in interesting information, I might say. Let me say this:
There may yet be some merit to the idea that "God is in control of who gets what", so to speak. I still believe man has the privilege of keeping himself in the position so as to be able to utilize the "full package" of the nine manifestations of the gift of holy spirit.
However, as it says: "But all these worketh [are energized by] that one and the selfsame Spirit"...
...dividing [distributing] to "every man his own as he [the man] will".
The question that remains is this: If it is up to God to energize the manifestations (or provide the "power" to them to make them work), then man (by his adherence to the Truth) is still not under "control", so to speak, to make these work on his own accord.
My take is truly that these are readily available to anyone (born again) who needs any - AND - who (by his faithfulness to God's precepts he understands thus far in life) keeps himself in the proper position so as to be JUSTIFIED in God's sight so as to have "His permission".
I believe God will energize any (or all) of these as needed, as long as the "receiver" is doing "his part".
This way, we can still both agree. God energizes (according to His will) and man (who inherently has all these to start with) believes to manifest them (according to his will).
That's the best I can do at this point. But I have one example:
Noah was the only one on the planet who had continued to be faithful to God's admonitions. And it was only he who received some very detailed information about precisely how to save himself and his family from the flood to come. What he received from God could only have been (by definition) "Word of Knowledge".
The truth is: Would God have been JUST if he had decided to energize this manifestation and give Noah the answers if he had been "screwing up" like all the rest? I doubt that seriously.
And again even today, would God be JUSTIFIED in allowing "screw-ups" (so to speak) to make use of such WONDERFUL POWER?
But Jesus Christ had no problem in manifesting this power at ANY TIME it was needed! Why is that? We have "Christ in us", and we are told we can do the same works as he did on earth - and even greater works! How is that to be?
I think nothing has changed about God's allowance for these spiritual evidences to be manifested by His people ever since Adam! He had designed the entire LAWS of the universe from the beginning - and whoever adheres to His instruction is "more than welcome" to share this POWER with Him.
However, as it says: "But all these worketh [are energized by] that one and the selfsame Spirit"...
...dividing [distributing] to "every man his own as he [the man] will".
Spec, when I wrote my commentary on 1 Corinthians 12, I debated in my mind for a while as to whether "he" referred to man or God. This verse could read either way so I got input from about 5 other people on this. These scriptures were written 2000 years ago and not every verse is clear by itself. However, in looking at the overall context of the chapter, it is God that does the energizing through the spirit that he gives to man. Hence, my emphasis was and still is God first, man second. Man has a certain amount of will power, but man is limited according to his knowledge and abilities. God on the other hand is all powerful and with all knowledge and has limitless capabilities.
1 Cor 12:11
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
I think people get this gift and can misuse it. That would mean that. just like everything else in God's Word - there are rules and people can break them and sin. No new concept
People that know how to Speak in tongues can do it at the wrong time, just as a for instance
But to do a miracle, or to heal a person, you nust first listen to God I think, and our hard heads suffer there. We are too ignorantly stupid to listen to God because we know it all. People that can't get past giving themselves revelations, instead of letting God talk will have no success with the power manifestations. So far, I see this includes me. In this way God capped misuse. though from time to time he lets an fool of a person work His power because there is no one else that believes to.
Anything from God can be misused I think if a person gets a hold of it
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Twinky
Because, soul searcher, in TWI speak, there is, as it were, an omitted word.
In Authorised/KJ Version (as used by TWI):
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal .
VPW logic said (and I could be wrong on this) that the "one" and "another" in verses 8-10 should relate back to the nearest noun and chose "profit" for this: whereas, really, in the KJV translation, the nearest noun is not "profit" but "manifestation".
However, the Interlinear renders verse 7 as: "but to each is given the manifestation of the spirit for profit."
Which uses "profit" as a noun.
Maybe it's a noun; could be a verb as KJV - I don't know enough Greek to say.
On VPW's logic using KJV, it shouldn't be different profits [benefits] but different manifestations.
And the "profits" are first to bless the person, then to bless the body of believers.
8 For to one [profit/manifestation] is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another [profit/manifestation] the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another [profit/manifestation] faith by the same Spirit; to another [profit/manifestation] the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another [profit/manifestation] the working of miracles; to another [profit/manifestation] prophecy; to another [profit/manifestation] discerning of spirits; to another [profit/manifestation] divers kinds of tongues; to another [profit/manifestation] the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally [interlinear: separately] as he [the man] will [desires].
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body [=manifestations of the spirit], being many, are one body: so also is Christ [=the spirit of Christ].
I simply note that many churchgoers talk of the "gifts" of the spirit and desire "the gift of tongues". The word "manifestation" is from a root word meaning "to render apparent; appeer, manifestly declare, show" and that root word itself is derived from a word meaning "evidently, openly." So nothing about "gifts" there, lots of individual gifts or one bigger gift; only about something being obvious.
Whatever, TWI view is that everyone has the full package of holy spirit and has the ability to manifest all 9 of the manifestations.
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soul searcher
Thanks, Twinky.
I went back and read the KJV and, notwithstanding "VPW's logic", the underlying message seems the same: to each his or her own gift. Maybe some of us are lucky enough to receive and manifest more than one gift, but most of us aren't. Or, at best, some of us may be more talented at one gift over another. At any rate, it seems to me that SIT is not available to everyone.
P.S. You had the honor and distinction of replying to my 100th post.
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waysider
soul searcher
Have you ever read Receiving the Holy Spirit Today?
There is quite a lot in there that will explain what the average "Way Believer" regards to be accurate on this matter.
I'm not saying I agree with it. What I'm saying is that it gives you some sort of starting point in trying to discuss this with Wayfers.
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spectrum49
Please forgive the length of this post, but I considered it important enough to share what I have on the manifestations (of the gift of holy spirit) once and for all - in detail...
When were born physically, the seed contained all that we needed. All the potential for what we were to become was inherent in the seed from our father (and in what the mother contributed as well). After being born we were nourished with food, etc, and grew.
The new birth is just like that. All that we need for our spiritual life is contained in the seed [Greek word is spermo] from God. We receive the one gift of holy spirit which alone carries with it all the potential for living spiritually. (I call this our "spiritual DNA".) There has been literally no end of confusion among many Christians by supposing we need to receive something extra for our spiritual life – they erroneously call these "the gifts of the spirit". We shall see that we already have all of these to begin with – and that God calls these manifestations, not gifts.
To see this we will be looking very closely at 1Co 12:
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [text is pneumatikos – spiritual matters, things of the spirit], gifts [the word gifts is not in the text] brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Now, spiritual matters do include gifts, but not all spiritual matters are gifts. God has devoted three entire chapters (1Co 12-14) to cover the subject of spiritual matters. We see the context come to a close in the following verse:
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
So we see that God started by saying he doesn’t want us to be ignorant concerning spiritual matters, and concluded by saying that if anybody doesn’t want to hear about it, then just leave him alone – let him be ignorant. Christian teachers are not to force feed anyone. If someone is hungry and asks, then we feed him until he says he has had enough to eat – this is the only polite way to be!
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
God continues to instruct the Corinthians about some spiritual matters. Then in verse 4 He mentions the word gifts – [Greek is charisma – from this we get our English word charismatic, meaning gifted.]
We must watch the context very closely to look for any changes. Now we are talking about gifts (which are included within spiritual matters).
Next, we will see about administrations and operations, which are also spiritual matters:
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
Now, in the next verse, watch how it changes!
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
Notice we have now changed the context from gifts and administrations and operations to the manifestation of the spirit. It is the Greek word phanerosis, not charisma (gift)! And it says, but the manifestation. This word but sets this in stark contrast to that which preceded.
It goes on to say that this is given to every man. This cannot mean that everyone on the planet has it! We must remember that in the context God is talking to "brethren" (verse 1). Brothers have the same father. God is talking to his children; they are the ones which have the ability to manifest this spirit. The others do not even have it to begin with.
So, it says the manifestation of the spirit – that means all of it – anything which may be manifested (or evidenced) by way of the spirit.
One final (but very, very important) note on this verse: The purpose of the (entire) manifestation of this spirit (given to all of God’s kids) is to profit withal… see it again:
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
This means that the overall purpose is for every man (and collectively, the entire body of Christ as well) to profit all the way through, so that all the manifestation is evidenced – not just a part of it.
Now comes the tricky part. Most Christians are taught that the verses following are talking about individuals (for to one…to another…to another). How can God say that all the manifestation is given to every man, and then turn right around and say that one piece is given to one man and another piece to another man, etc? Well, he doesn’t!
In grammar, the phrase to prophet withal is an infinitive phrase. The words which follow must connect with this phrase to further elaborate on it. This is what verses 8-10 do.
God has structured this very wonderfully. First, in verse 7 he makes it plain that every man (believer) may bring forth (all) the manifestation of the (gift of) spirit, so that he may make full use of it in every way – to profit withal – all the way through. Having said that, he now breaks the entire manifestation up into its nine separate categories. Each one of these profits a little by itself; and what you have when you put them all together is to profit withal – by manifesting all of them! Then in verse 11, God brings the context right back to where he started in verse 7, putting them all back together again and telling us more about it as a whole unit again. In fact, verse 11 has some very illuminating truth in it as well!
1Co 12:8 For [the reason why we can profit withal is:] to one [one way to profit a little] is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another [more profit] the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another [even further profit] faith by the same Spirit; to another [even more!] the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another [and more] the working of miracles; to another [and more] prophecy; to another [getting bored?—ha ha] discerning of spirits; to another [even more profit] divers kinds of tongues; to another [lastly] the interpretation of tongues: [now we have it all!]
11 But all these…
A note of explanation is due about one of these, however. You may have noticed that the manifestation of healings is also called a gift (gifts of healings). This is simply because it is the only one of these which is also a gift. In the first (or natural) birth, God graciously endowed our physical bodies with the ability to heal themselves. A doctor might reset a broken bone, but it is self-mending. The same is true with cuts, scrapes, and a host of other things. We may provide medications, salves, ointments, and bandages, etc, but the healing process itself has been built in. The body of Christ is no different. God has built this into our new birth.
Basically, in order to manifest this one, a person has to operate it by asking God if a gift is there to have. If it is, and the recipient is believing for it, then it will be manifested (come into concretion in the senses realm). Such was the case in Act 3:6:
Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Spiritually, Peter had asked God if there was a gift for the lame man, and there was. We know he received this gift of healing from God when he said "such as I have give I thee". He received this gift from God and gave it to the believing man and he was healed.
Healing is always a gift – if it is there, then fine – if not, God has a reason. I should say, however, one is usually available when the receiver is truly believing for it.
Moving on now…
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The above verse requires quite a bit of explanation in light of how it has been portrayed of late; and the trend is getting worse and worse with each new translation that comes along!
We just saw how God has made all of these available to every man so he can operate this gift to its full extent, profiting in every category. But ministers and teachers the world over have tried to make this verse sound as if God picks and chooses who gets what. And for the most part, it usually winds up that their students do not believe sufficiently enough to operate any of them! Those that are blessed enough to have one or the other are many times so blessed and thankful that to them it might seem greedy to have more of them, supposing that their fellow believers would have those ones, and together somehow they could enjoy all of them as a group.
Surely, it does work this way in practice. Many people do have their specialties and long suits among these, and many times deliverance comes to people when Christians operate together as a team, but to deny a Christian his full potential by teaching wrongly is a pitiful shame!
The truth is, God wants each of his children to enjoy operating all of these, while the devil wants just the opposite. If he can talk Christians out of believing they have all of this power, then that’s just less worry for him that every one of God’s kids just might manifest enough to stomp all over him and his host of devil-spirit helpers!
In my humble opinion, 1Co 12:11 has been translated horribly in many versions. For your enlightenment, below are some of the renderings. Please forgive me for the long list; I merely wanted the reader to see just how rampantly out of control this verse has become over the years. It is difficult to find any new version these days which is rendered accurately, and it appears that many of them just make it up as they go, text or not! Only the first two are actually faithful to the text. (Do take note of the intentional capitalization of the pronoun "he" in many of these.):
===============================================================
A Comparison of I Corinthians 12:11 among various versions:
(AV – 1611 King James)
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
(Revised Standard)
11 All these are inspired by one the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
(Living Bible)
11 It is the same and only Holy Spirit who gives all these gifts and powers, deciding which each one of us should have.
(GWV – God’s Word to the Nations)
11 There is only one Spirit who does all these things by giving what God wants to give to each person.
(Weymouth)
11 But these results are all brought about by one and the same Spirit, who bestows His gifts upon each of us in accordance with His own will.
(New International Version)
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
(New American Standard Bible)
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
(Amplified Bible)
11 All these [gifts, achievements, abilities] are inspired and brought to pass by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, Who apportions to each person individually [exactly] as He chooses.
(New Living Translation)
11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.
(Contemporary English Version)
11 But it is the Spirit who does all this and decides which gifts to give to each of us.
(New King James Version)
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
(New Century Version)
11 One Spirit, the same Spirit, does all these things, and the Spirit decides what to give each person.
(21st Century King James Version)
11 But all of these that one and the selfsame Spirit worketh, apportioning to every man individually as He will.
(Young's Literal Translation)
11 and all these doth work the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally as he intendeth.
(Holman Christian Standard Bible)
11 But one and the same Spirit is active in all these, distributing to each one as He wills.
(New International Reader's Version)
11 All of the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives them to each person, just as he decides.
(New International Version - UK)
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
(Today's New International Version)
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
(Worldwide English (New Testament))
11 And the same Spirit gives the power for all these things. He gives each person what he wants to give to them.
===============================================================
That was quite a list! After reading all those, one just might wonder if God is really the one who chooses after all, just because there are so many versions which say that.
I tell ya what – put a thousand counterfeit dollar bills that all look alike next to just one good bill – and the good bill is still the only true one!
Now, we will see exactly what this verse is saying by taking a closer look at it, considering the words I have put in italics:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The verb worketh is the Greek word energeo, from which we derive our English word energize, and Spirit is referring to God himself. It is God who provides the energy to bring these to pass in the physical realm. The word dividing simply means distributing.
So far, the verse is saying, But all these are energized by the one and selfsame Spirit (God), distributing to every man… As noted earlier, we know every man refers to brethren, the born-again believers.
Now comes the interesting phrase, severally as he will Does the pronoun "he" refer to God or to the man? It seems to most people that it could be either one. But we cannot afford to just guess and hope we are correct! That is not doing honest research.
If we know just a little about English grammar, we can readily see that it should refer to the man, which is the "closest antecedent" to the pronoun he. However, I have found that this is usually not enough proof for most people because those who actually enjoyed learning about grammar in school seem to be but a few. So we will "dig a bit deeper" to see the truth here…
The word severally is the Greek word idios. This word appears over one hundred times in the Greek New Testament, and is usually translated one’s own, his own, her own, its own, etc. Below is an example of this word idios when it was translated private:
2Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Since the word private is idios, the verse might be rendered, …"no prophecy of the scripture is of any one’s own interpretation", which means that we are not to just interpret it however we want to. As the author of the Bible, God has been very diligent to make himself perfectly clear to those who allow the scriptures to speak for themselves, instead of reading into it on their own (idios).
We can easily see how the translators were accurate in rendering idios as private here; if it is someone’s private matter, it is essentially his own matter. In fact, we get our English word idiosyncrasy from it, which is "anyone’s own particular or peculiar way of doing things". And again, God does not wish us to interpret his scriptures this way; he said this is the first thing we need to know!
Now, back to 1Co 12:11…
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
This is the only verse in the Bible where the translators rendered idios as severally. Personally, I believe it obscures the entire meaning from view. Why weren’t they consistent with the rest of the places where they translated it one’s own, or in this case, his own? Consider what it is really saying now: …dividing to every man his own as he will. The word "he" refers to the man – and one doesn’t even need to be a grammar nut to see that now! And this fits in context with all we have seen from verse 7 on.
God had said that "the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit all the way through", making full use of the gift of holy spirit he gave to us. He then broke it up into nine components, showing that each one has its unique profit. And now in verse 11 he has put them all back together as a unit, explaining to us that he will energize each one of these as we will. It is our responsibility and privilege to operate this gift of holy spirit in all of its parts as we will – that is to say, as we desire or as we believe. It is up to us to endeavor to find out about each of these and put them to use. If we don’t, they just won’t happen on their own, for God only energizes them as the man wills.
And even for all of this explanation, I am sure there are many who either don’t get it, or will even refuse to because they just cannot let go of what they have been taught already.
So just why are these things true? The very next verse tells us!
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
As we see above, the next verse begins with for, which gives the reason for what he has shown thus far about his children utilizing all of the manifestations – making full use of the his gift of holy spirit. God is now going to explain these things by using the analogy of our human bodies to show us that physical things have been designed very similar to spiritual things, so we can relate them and get some wonderful understanding.
In a normal birth a baby has a body and all the physical parts to go with it. (feet, hands, ears, eyes, a nose, etc.) When you read from verse 13 on, you will see that these same parts are also incorporated into the body of Christ as well, in the spiritual sense. Let us not complicate matters. For now, let us keep it simple. Each one of the born-again believers has Christ in him:
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
We have the same ability which Jesus had on Earth! That is why we can do the works that he did (Jn 14:12). He is God’s son, and we are also now God’s children: Beloved, now are we the sons of God…(1Jn 3:2).
First, we must realize that each of us is like Christ (spiritually) for we each have Christ in us. Then collectively, we are all part of the spiritual body of Christ as well. If you try to visualize this, it may be a bit confusing. Just remember, it is not a literal fact! God is merely using the human body as an analogy to relate spiritual truths to us in a way in which we can understand.
Just as it is necessary to use all of our body parts to live well physically, it is also God’s wish that we learn to utilize these manifestations as well, for they are akin to "spiritual body parts". If someone does not have the use of a leg for instance, we might say he is "physically challenged". Do we want to be considered "spiritually challenged" by not wanting to use all these spiritual body parts? I would hope not! God has made them all available to us by way of the "spiritual DNA" contained in the seed [Greek word is spermo] we received from him.
SPEC
:)
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soul searcher
Hey Spec, thanks. Great post.
I like that "spiritual DNA" concept. I do think that we all may have the "potential" for each of the manifestations but the reality is that people tend to specialize in certain vocations that suit their tempraments. We're all good at certain things and not so good at other things.
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Gen-2
I was born with a syndrome that challenges me. I have always hoped I am not "Spiritually Challeged" in some disabling way. But wanting and doing,... therein lies the rub. I've had to learn to "live with" my physical challenges, having no alternative but to do so,... so far. But I was hoping I'm not "damaged from the factory" so to speak - spiritually. But your post makes me think of this, SPEC. And I wonder if there's truth to that. After all God allowed me to be born with something I could "work around" but never conqueor (at least not yet) physically. Perhaps He does this to people spiritually as well...?
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soul searcher
That's what I'm saying. Not everybody is capable of doing everything. We're all challenged in various ways.
While there may be good spiritual or psychological reasons to SIT (whatever we mean by that), I don't think that SIT, in and of itself, is a "critical indicator" or a natural manifestation of holy spirit. The SIT that I've heard my ex-Way friend speak may mean something between her and God, but it's not the same phenomenon as what happened to the apostles at Pentecost, I'm pretty sure of that.
:)
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soul searcher
Thinking about it some more...
Another counter-argument to mine would be that "message of wisdom" is the first manifestation mentioned in the list. And of course I believe that all individuals should maximize their message-of-wisdom skills, regardless of how good they think they are at it.
:B)
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waysider
Dearest Gen-2
You must never, ever allow yourself to believe you are "damaged from the factory",. We are what we are. Some of us have more fingers and toes than others. Some of us have less. Some can charm a nightingale with their song while others can peel paint. Some have one eye that just sits there taking up space, while others pop on the 3-d glasses and take great delight in movies like Avatar. But, spiritually? Nope. I don't buy it. If you are a God believing type of person, it might interest you to know that "God is no respecter of persons."
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spectrum49
This is RIGHT ON "in my book", soul searcher! Wisdom is the very foundation of beginning to learn and apply the other manifestations - IT IS KEY!
Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
SPEC
:)
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Mark Sanguinetti
http://www.christianherald.info/1-corinthians-12-page-1.html
I have written a 12 page commentary on 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Above is a link to it. This was written a few years ago and I have already had other people help with the editing of it. I spent a lot of time studying, editing and writing this so if someone reads it they can learn a lot in a relatively short period of time.
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spectrum49
DARN IT ALL MARK!
I read your 12-page commentary. For the most part, it was very well done!
However, I am astounded that you entirely missed the point that it is THE BELIEVER who "wills" to operate these! I quote from your article:
Finally, there is only one God who not only gives, but determines. The last words of verse 11 state “and he gives them (the manifestation of the spirit) to each one, just as he determines” (NIV). We see in this verse a giver, who we already know from the scriptures is God, and a receiver who weknow is man. Now of the two whom do you think determines? “As he (God) determines” also fits with the immediate context of this chapter.
With all your wonderful knowledge and experience of using Greek lexicons, concordances, etc, (as shown in your 12-page treatise) I am truly AMAZED that you could still say it is God who determines what each believer operates - WHETHER HE BELIEVES OR NOT!
How could you possibly entirely miss the point I made about IDIOS, (his own), translated erroneously as "severally" in 1Co 12:11?
With all your research experience, don't you see that the phrase "dividing to every man severally as he will" correctly translates into dividing to "every man his own as he will"?
Why did you choose to focus solely on the NIV version "and he gives them (the manifestation of the spirit) to each one, just as he determines"?
You even know yourself that the New International Version is NOT RENDERED faithfully from the Critical Greek Texts, but "paraphrased throughout", according to what the translators THOUGHT IT MEANT!
And isn't that a prime example of PRIVATE (idios) INTERPRETATION, which is contrary to the very first thing God would have us to know?
I am astounded at you. I said at the beginning of my "long post" that I had done this "once and for all." I suppose you "chimed in" to make me go back on my words - for here I am - explaining the same points all over again!
I am sure you are very knowledgeable of the scriptures. In that event, let me remind you sir: This post is your "second admonition"...
SPEC
:)
PS: I was also a personal friend of Peter J. Wade as well (many years ago). I do not believe even he would concur with your idea of God making us to be like "puppets on a string"!
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Mark Sanguinetti
You must have heard your puppets on a string analogy from place else. However, even Victor Wierwille said that we can not go beyond what we are taught. Without God's ability given to us we have and know nothing of value.
And for your information I never even read your long post. I simply saw a thread on this subject. I have done a lot of research on it and so I posted it. And your comments are unnecessary because at least 5 other people have already analyzed my article when I orginally wrote it. It has been already edited a number of times. And yes 1 Corinthians 12:11 was part of that editing.
However, I did read your latest post and I am hearing now an attitude that I am your competition on this subject. Why is that Spectrum? If you consider yourself a teacher why would you feel threatened by another teacher? Doesn't the bible say teachers (plural) and not teachers (singular)?
And below is some bible commentary written by other bible teachers on 1 Corinthians 12:11.
1 Corinthians 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
As he will. The Spirit is the sovereign dispenser of the gifts. The words are a key to the following section, showing those apparently more favored in the gifts that there is no self-merit in them, and those less favored that there is no lack of importance for them (cf. Godet, op. cit., II, 206).
(from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1962 by Moody Press)
1 Corinthians 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
[but all these worketh that one and the self-same Spirit] All these gifts are miraculously bestowed; they cannot be acquired by human art or industry, the different languages excepted; but they were given in such a way, and in such circumstances, as sufficiently proved that they also were miraculous gifts.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996 by Biblesoft)
1 Corinthians 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
[but all these] All these various endowments.
[Worketh] Produces. All these are to be traced to him.
[That one and the self-same Spirit] The Holy Spirit, Acts 2. They were all, though so different in themselves, to be traced to the Holy Spirit, just as all the natural endowments of people-their strength, memory, judgment, etc. -though so various in themselves are to be traced to the same God.
[Dividing to every man severally] Conferring on each one as he pleases. He confers on each one that which he sees to be best, and most wise, and proper.
[As he will] As he chooses or as in his view seems best. Dr. Doddridge remarks, that this word does "not so much express arbitrary pleasure, as a determination founded on "wise" counsel." It implies, however, that he does it as a sovereign; as he sees to be right and best. He distributes these favors as to him seems best adapted to promote the welfare of the whole church and to advance his cause. Some of the doctrines which are taught by this verse are the following:
(l) The Holy Spirit is a "person." For, he acts as a person; distributes favors, confers endowments and special mercies "as he will." This proves that he is, in some respects, distinguished from the Father and the Son. It would be absurd to say of an "attribute" of God, that it confers favors, and distributes the various endowments of speaking with tongues, and raising the dead. And if so, then the Holy Spirit is "not" an attribute of God.
(2) He is a sovereign. He gives to all as he pleases. In regard to spiritual endowments of the highest order, he deals with people as he does in the common endowments bestowed upon people, and as he does in temporal blessings. He does not bestow the same blessings on all, nor make all alike. He dispenses his favors by a rule which he has not made known, but which, we may be assured, is in accordance with wisdom and goodness. He wrongs no one; and he gives to all the favors which might be connected with eternal life.
(3) No man should be proud of his endowments. Whatever they may be, they are the gifts of God, bestowed by his sovereign will and mercy. But assuredly we should not be proud of that which is the mere "gift" of another, and which has been bestowed, not in consequence of any merit of ours, but according to his mere sovereign will.
(4) No man should be depressed, or should despise his own gifts, however humble they may be. In their own place, they may be as important as the higher endowments of others. That God has placed him where he is, or has given less splendid endowments than he has to others, is no fault of his. There is no crime in it; and he should, therefore, strive to improve his "one talent," and to make himself useful in the rank where he is placed. And,
(5) No man should despise another because be is in a more bumble rank, or is less favored than himself. God has made the difference, and we should respect and honor his arrangements, and should show that "respect" and "honor" by regarding with kindness, and treating as fellow laborers with us, all who occupy a more humble rank than we do.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997 by Biblesoft)
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cman
Had twi even come close to what tongues is?
Doubt it.
If they had, it and the rest is apparent and,
as a whole, cannot be contained in explanations.
But learning and being taught is not popular.
The old 'do it myself' mindset of figuring things out.
Which to a degree is correct in determination and willingness.
To do whatever it takes from the inside out, not the other way around....
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soul searcher
Mark, excellent paper. Thank you.
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soul searcher
Thanks, Waysider. Actually that may have been among the several pieces of literature by Weirwille that my ex-Way friend sent me, but which I have since deleted off my hard drive.
I'm still listening to some classes from CFFM. I'm sure they'll cover it.
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WordWolf
Physically, none of us is perfect.
It's personal belief that each Christian (and I see I Corinthians 12 and 14 agreeing with this)
has certain strengths and areas where they lack strength.
Begin teaching a room of Christians on any subject, and I think several will say
"What?", several will say "Hm," several will say "AHA!" and several will say "Well, of course!"
Some, as soon as you begin an introduction, will begin "connecting the dots".
That's personal inclination, interests, and personality.
Account for that, and-even if all Christians HAVE been give an identical Spirit with 9 or more
POTENTIAL enablements- you'll see an incredible variety on what they do and how they do it.
Heck, just take the subject of Divine Revelation/word of knowledge, and how they'll approach
the subject will vary widely...
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spectrum49
Sorry Mark. I acted a bit hastily. I had merely "assumed" you had originally read my post.
No. I do not consider that we are in a competition. Everyone here at Greasespot has the right to read and form their own opinions of what others say.
Your recent post contained a lot in interesting information, I might say. Let me say this:
There may yet be some merit to the idea that "God is in control of who gets what", so to speak. I still believe man has the privilege of keeping himself in the position so as to be able to utilize the "full package" of the nine manifestations of the gift of holy spirit.
However, as it says: "But all these worketh [are energized by] that one and the selfsame Spirit"...
...dividing [distributing] to "every man his own as he [the man] will".
The question that remains is this: If it is up to God to energize the manifestations (or provide the "power" to them to make them work), then man (by his adherence to the Truth) is still not under "control", so to speak, to make these work on his own accord.
My take is truly that these are readily available to anyone (born again) who needs any - AND - who (by his faithfulness to God's precepts he understands thus far in life) keeps himself in the proper position so as to be JUSTIFIED in God's sight so as to have "His permission".
I believe God will energize any (or all) of these as needed, as long as the "receiver" is doing "his part".
This way, we can still both agree. God energizes (according to His will) and man (who inherently has all these to start with) believes to manifest them (according to his will).
That's the best I can do at this point. But I have one example:
Noah was the only one on the planet who had continued to be faithful to God's admonitions. And it was only he who received some very detailed information about precisely how to save himself and his family from the flood to come. What he received from God could only have been (by definition) "Word of Knowledge".
The truth is: Would God have been JUST if he had decided to energize this manifestation and give Noah the answers if he had been "screwing up" like all the rest? I doubt that seriously.
And again even today, would God be JUSTIFIED in allowing "screw-ups" (so to speak) to make use of such WONDERFUL POWER?
But Jesus Christ had no problem in manifesting this power at ANY TIME it was needed! Why is that? We have "Christ in us", and we are told we can do the same works as he did on earth - and even greater works! How is that to be?
I think nothing has changed about God's allowance for these spiritual evidences to be manifested by His people ever since Adam! He had designed the entire LAWS of the universe from the beginning - and whoever adheres to His instruction is "more than welcome" to share this POWER with Him.
SPEC :)
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Mark Sanguinetti
Spec, when I wrote my commentary on 1 Corinthians 12, I debated in my mind for a while as to whether "he" referred to man or God. This verse could read either way so I got input from about 5 other people on this. These scriptures were written 2000 years ago and not every verse is clear by itself. However, in looking at the overall context of the chapter, it is God that does the energizing through the spirit that he gives to man. Hence, my emphasis was and still is God first, man second. Man has a certain amount of will power, but man is limited according to his knowledge and abilities. God on the other hand is all powerful and with all knowledge and has limitless capabilities.
1 Cor 12:11
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
NKJV
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cman
Who is in charge-in the spirit?
Is that the question?
Who is Lord, who is God?
As the man wills, wills what, a miracle?
It's a mutual joining, not some power trip.
Removing the labels and layers of self centered thinking is a start.
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geisha779
I like that.
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Gen-2
I think people get this gift and can misuse it. That would mean that. just like everything else in God's Word - there are rules and people can break them and sin. No new concept
People that know how to Speak in tongues can do it at the wrong time, just as a for instance
But to do a miracle, or to heal a person, you nust first listen to God I think, and our hard heads suffer there. We are too ignorantly stupid to listen to God because we know it all. People that can't get past giving themselves revelations, instead of letting God talk will have no success with the power manifestations. So far, I see this includes me. In this way God capped misuse. though from time to time he lets an fool of a person work His power because there is no one else that believes to.
Anything from God can be misused I think if a person gets a hold of it
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sirguessalot
may be worth comparing pfal and all the ninenesses of pentecost and the epistles with the histories of the enneagram...Enneagram of Personality and The Fourth Way Enneagram
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cman
I agree, though not misused but misinterpreted.
Not allowing patience and temperance to guide.
Even in misinterpreting there is a will present.
Cause those knots will be untangled.
---
Nice source for the Enneagram sirg.
One can see these in themselves first.
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