Hi, I have a point of view that one could think about, that is a deep subject your getting into there? In the DNA and RNA thread, I showed a machine like thing, and I showed how Lucifer took over the first heaven and earth, it was through that machine like thing; but no dinosaurs on that earth in the first heaven, but their could have been animals, and men and women, so to speak, because their was a garden with stones of fire on that earth in the first heaven. We know that Lucifer flooded that earth out, destroyed all ability for that machine like thing to function. The second heaven, and why it is around this earth, is a story in its self, but to jack with Satans mind, one could look at it this way, kill two birds with one stone, keep Satan in a none stop state of unknowingness, because Satan knows what he destroyed on that earth in the first heaven, and Satan knows that when Yahweh makes a move to redo that garden somehow, so to speak, that is where Satan will make his move, so this would be Satan's thinking? The first bird killed, so all this stuff starts living, so to speak, that machine like thing is back on the earth in the second heaven, 2027 can give you a full detail of all the things that lived on the earth, but what I think is so cool about all that crazy stuff going on, is how Yahweh kept destroying it, things would get a foot hold, a comet comes and destroys some of it, for over a 4 billons years this went on, so to speak. The second bird killed, all the oil and coal, land moving around on plates, mountains, and on and on. Now, no matter what, Satan knows Yahweh is going to redo somehow what Lucifer destroyed in that first garden, Yahweh has been keeping Satan is a constate state of confusion for over 4 billion years, Yahweh makes his move, that garden in Gen. I guess we could say 6 thousand years more or less, but that is why their was a garden on the earth in the second heaven, so to speak. Sorry for answering your thread, I am one of them, "-7"; hope this helps.
Good Question What About It one for which I do not have the answer.
I can tell you though (although not too accurately) that somewhere in Australia (I think) they have unearthed the oldest known remains of a living being (would we call it human), some 200,000 thousand years old.
Don't know what it was (scientists will draw some conclusions from that no wonder) :excl: or who it was but there were obviously people here before Adam who drew breath and walked and were alive. Their existence is undeniable.
The bible doesn't say anything about that, except if want to debate Gen 1.2. Was Void and Without Form.
I believe Satan brought all those species to an end. So, current man dates back only 6000 years. Doesn't negate that men weren't before that.
I also believe their were dinosaurs perhaps who walked with men. Science, however places that an improbability.
That being said, I believe that God created man (as we know him) 6000 years ago.
I cannot explain however, what happened between that time----- that other types of life existed and the time that Satan was cast out of heaven and destroyed all living things on this planet.
I only believe that other life forms, and other species of life did exist and they were not mentioned in our bible.
After twi I have many questions myself that I beg to have answered. Maybe we can find answers here on TGS.
I guess a part 2 to this question would be, what about the dinosaurs? Were they around in the "first heaven and earth" as VP taught?
I'm not a fan of much of VP's stuff.. Wouldn't glorify Usher's dates either.. Or Bullinger, or any other.. I love to keep my mind open to possibilities.. Only so far my mind's thrown out the whole Gen 1:2 "became" without form and void.. It lacked in the evidence department. So I don't subscribe to the first heaven/earth being destroyed by Satan. If anything I'd go with possibly the first being destroyed by the flood from what 1 Peters I believe mentions (and some have speculated the flood may not have even been worldwide and the words used in scripture could denote just a smaller contained area that destroyed life in that area)
As far as dinosaurs, we do have a Dinosaur State Park right down the road here.. And they have uncovered plenty of fossilized human's footsteps alongside and even within the same footstep as a dinosaur. Does that mean they coexisted? It's a possibility, one I'm willing to entertain. Also, notice all the civilizations that talk about dragons, including the scriptures. Only it is usually translated with a different word. These huge monstrous fire breathing beings, very possibly could have been one type of dinosaur that didn't become extinct until more recently. Even Alexander the Great was said to have seen one and had a large mosaic done of him with it. Even if they are just mythical, there is usually some truth to most myths.
And the whole 6000+ years... I've read some concerning both sides of the story, there's just too little time and too much info to go over it all, but the verdict is still out for me, only I'm still learning to it being still within the time frame..
There is a scientific theory that states that birds are not merely "descended" from dinosaurs, but, in fact, actually ARE dinosaurs. So, in a sense, if this theory proves to be true, you could say that man has and continues to walk amongst the dinosaurs.
you could say that man has and continues to walk amongst the dinosaurs.
yes why not
the earth took millions to be form
Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
"In the beginning" not the first day "In the beginning"
"God created the heaven and earth" it took time to form the heaven and earth
and created it
and made it
the was without form and void of purposes there was reason yet for God creation Yet
Remember that garden that was on the earth in the first heaven in Ezekiel 28:13; their was life forms in that garden, their could have been something like those same life forms, that were in the garden in Gen.; it would seem that if dinosaurs were walking with men on this earth in the second heaven, after the garden, then dinosaurs would be walking with men on the earth in the first heaven?
2027, that is a good point, that Crocodilian thing; what if there were crocodiles on the earth in the first heaven; now, what if Yahweh changed the DNA code to make them big and mean looking on the earth in the second heaven, during that 4 or so billion years period before the garden in Gen., just to jack with Satan's mind, also just to jack with Satan's mind, Yahweh kept destroying those life forms on the earth in the second heaven, in one form or another? Then in the garden in Gen., the animals that were on the earth in the first heaven, were in that garden on earth in the second heaven, just to prove a point to Satan, hey buddy, who do you think your kidding? Just a thought.
Could it be, if on the earth in the first heaven, there were so many kinds, I do not know how to say that, in a way? Like on the earth in the first heaven, there are so many kinds, somehow that earth in the first heaven gets destroyed; Yahweh takes that same many kinds, and he twisted the code of the many kinds that was in that garden on the earth in first heaven's DNA and RNA machine like thing, same many kinds, but a twisted many kinds in a way, 4 or so billions years of that, Yahweh destroys that DNA and RNA machine like thing to function, then in the garden in Gen., Yahweh puts back the same DNA and RNA machine like thing code in the many kinds that was on the earth in the first heaven, in that garden on the earth in the second heaven? But on the earth in the second heaven, Yahweh can also have whales, and many more different kinds of many kinds? What did Yahweh tell to replenish the earth, of the many kinds? Could have Yahweh use some of that new twisted kind during that 4 or so billion years period, and add to some of the many kinds that were on the earth in the first heaven, which is now in the garden on the earth in second heaven, to make new kinds, like a platypus?
There are many cultures that can trace their history back through thousands of years. Chinese and Indian cultures particularly spring to mind.
Before that, more primitive cultures such as Stone Age man, Bronze Age man, existed way before Adam is said to have done. The datings for these cultures vary around the world, according to local knowledge and (presumably) materials. Radio-carbon dating gives what are considered fairly precise dates for each upswelling of knowledge or "scientific / technological advancement"...as much as man can say.
Perhaps you would find it helpful to consider Gen1 and Gen 2 as allegorical. They do give different versions of the "Creation story". Gen 1 is in the nature of a song, with the repetitive chorus, evening and morning were the nth day. Gen 2 is more of a summary.
There's a school of thought that suggests that when Jerusalem was repopulated under Ezra-Nehemiah, that when the book of the law was found...it was then subject to some textual revisions. To stake a claim, as it were.
It's also clear that there were other peoples about when A&E were having progeny...otherwise, why would Cain need to be afraid of other people killing him, after he had killed Abel?
Still pondering permutations myself; but the allegorical idea appeals most at present.
Hello What About It :) I know when I left TWI, I took a nice long break from the Bible and eventually started reading things I found interesting. Although, when I look back, I'd get an idea, a thought, start reading and over the years its been interesting to look back and see how God has taught me - His own things He wanted to teach me - not what TWI wanted to teach me. Its been a wonderful journey. But, hey, if you don't want to touch the bible for the next 10 months or 10 years - do what you need to do for you.
But, as to your question, a few years ago I started wondering too.
So, I guess I have to go with, what is called in theological circles, the "Gap Theory."
I believe you have Gen 1:1 - perfect earth, perfect heavens, perfect spiritual beings.
Gen 1:2 - earth "becomes" without form and void (in Isaiah it also says I did not form it without form and void). I believe the darkness was God's judgment for Satan's attemped overthrow.
I believe from Gen. 1:2 on, God then begins to restore the earth.
I feel dinosaurs were after the restoration of the earth, but before man.
But, there are also other speculations that they were before the judgment and darkness of Gen 1:2 and not on the newly restored earth. If so, what they were and why - also has some curious answers, but that's for another thread.
I believe the earth is 4 billion or so years old, as are angels and whatever else was there. You had the first flood, or judgment of Gen 1:2, then it was restored. This all took time - billions of years.
As for modern "man" as we know him - I don't believe in a 6,000 year timeline. That came about, as another poster mentioned by one person a few centuries ago who decided to add up years in the Bible - and was wrong. There are various reasons, but, that's another thread.
I do believe we need to make a distinction between modern man and "homonids" - which is what all the ancient skeletons are, like Lucy, cavemen, etc. - the humanoid type beings which preceded modern man as we know him.
Homonids have been found as far back as 4 million years ago. There were many different types. They came, they went, new ones pop up - if you see them charted - its fasciniating. I'll post the pic I'm thinking of. All different types at all different times, it looks like someone or something was "experimenting."
Anyway, Homonids - various types - lived right up until neanderthal man.
I believe, hominds - including neaderthal and cro-magnon - were very similar to us - modern humans - but were not us - of modern homo sapiens - humans.
Just like chimpanzees are 99.98, or some amazingly close number to us humans, the same DNA as us - but they are different - you would not call chimps human. I think hominids were more like various types of apes, monkeys, chimps and were not related to humans and we are not descended from them.
I think the last of the hominids were wiped out during the flood of Noah or in the last ice age.
I think humans - as we know them have been around since about 100,000 to 50,000 years ago. I know scientists trace the modern human "Eve" DNA to about that time - we all came from one "mother."
Also, as to Adam and Eve - just as Jesus Christ was inserted into mankind, into man's history 2000 years ago, I have often wondered if Adam was also inserted into mankind. That would explain why there were other people around when Cain was thrown out of the Garden.
As to dinosaurs, they could have lived either time really - before the "restoration" or since the earth's restoration.
There's an excellent Christian Ph.D. Biophysisist named Hugh Ross who has a great website discussing things like this scientifically. I've read some of his books. As I said, he's a scientist, not a "young earth" creationist and is great to read. He may help answer some of your questions.
Below is the Hominid chart. click and it will enlarge and you can see how varied they were.
i sometimes wonder if the story of Adam is a story of "the missing link"...and not just an individual man...but a symbol for those original waves of humanity to pop up out of the pure wild earth...pre-egoic primal instinctual foraging/hunting culture...the "ape-man."
and perhaps the story of Adam and Eve is a story about those original waves of matriarchal tribal shamanistic humanity...speaking to snakes on trees being a sign of early horticultural relationship with the earth and "motherhood of the ape-man." ...as if Eve fed Adam something he did not know he could eat.
and then maybe the story of Cain and Abel is a story about an original clash of waves...how agricultural tyranny and patriarchy works with its younger hunter-gatherer siblings.
whether UFOs, angels, giants or big egos...along came those original waves of giant military industrial monocultures...bringing about the desertification of Eden.
then there is Noah...a story of those original waves of holistic emergency polycultural container-gardening life-boat experiments ...life in the wake of when giant monocultures fall apart.
Abraham to Moses...stories of those original waves of homeless untribed vagabonds in the desert...landless nameless exiles, refugees and slaves..."dark night of the soul."
Moses to Solomon...stories of those original waves of learning how to find a home and regenerate the desertified.
Essenes and Jesus and beyond...stories of the original waves of sustaining and propagating the regeneration of the earth...final return to Eden and Revelation...where the first is last...and the leaves of the garden are used to heal the world.
Reconciling carbon dating with Biblical records is always an entertaining endeavor
I have read anecdotes of carbon dating placing volcanic rock at 1M years old, surrounding a pocket of a mosquito larvae known to not be more than 14,000 years old.
However, on the other end of the spectrum, I don't think Usher's dates, which consist of trying to timeline the Bible, are 100% trustworthy either. I don't think that God's intent was to write a history timeline.
My views tend to fall somewhere in the middle of that. I think mankind's timeline is older than 6000 years. I think dinosaur's and hominid's timelines may be more recent than dates thrown out there.
I do feel there is leeway for the gap theory between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. But I'm a little leery as to placing exact timelines into that gap, for reasons stated above.
I am learning their is way too much world teachings to muddle through, it is crazy all the religions points of views.
Yep. That's about where I was in my thinking when somebody told me about PFAL in 1979. I was sold out to TWI's point of view until after I left CES in 1996. Right now, I think there are a few simple truths I can trust. I'm willing to listen to anybody's reasoning, but I'm very, very picky about what I'm willing to buy into.
as Roy would say, with love and a holy kiss.... Steve
I get most of my info from non-christian, science websites. The chart I posted was from a science evolution site - and I found it fascinating, to see homonid history over millions of years mapped out, overlapping, dying out, new group here, new one there - was something experimenting? What was going on? To see it is to go, this is strange - you wonder, spiritually, what was happening? But I find geology, archeology, timelines - they're all there to see and most scientists do agree.
They know, from the geological record, there was the, what I'll call, first period of life - small organisms. That ended.
Then, all of a sudden, came the "Cambrian Explosion" - or, the big bang, so to speak, of life as we know it now.
So, if there was a judgment and the earth was in and out of the waters in Gen 1:2 - when did this happen in the fossil record?
If there was a later, Noah's flood - where is it in the fossil record?
Can science and what the Bible tells us fit? Maybe. Its up to us to take the evidence and figure things out.
The Book of Job - read it from a geologist/meteorologist point of view - we know he was very close to Noah after the flood. Look at what it says about the geology, the land, the weather - what does he say about the men who "live in caves"? Interesting stuff.
Lots of other cool stuff.
I was always very interested in man, where did he come from, evolved, created - what? Timelines of hominid/homo sapiens are fascinating. How do they fit in with the geologic timeline? Lot's of neat things if you we to know.
But, I do go with science on universe/earth age and how it formed.
We have that power of Yahweh in us, so we can look at this from Yahweh's point of view, that fifth day period is where most of the time in this story, 4 or so billion years. It is a trip all the life that started popping up in them days, what is cool is how Yahweh kept destroying that different life throughout that fifth day period.
There was some type of aridification event around 2200 BC that led to the collapse of civilizations(Egyptian) in the middle east and perhaps other areas. Desert, famine , deluge...some Bible events could be related to this time of upheaval.
Great point on that tree, I wrote the best I knew of this on the tread First Heaven without the angles and earth, it is toward the bottom of the tread, I tried to lay it out like that 123456, I didn't get to much into 6 because we somewhat know that story. I chose 5 here because that is where most of the time took place 4 or 5 billion years or so, cool stuff though.
I think the earth is key to the age of those days, but how long was the earth in the beginning of the second heaven, before Yahweh separated some kind of light from the thick darkness, the land was in one chunk under water at that beginning, in the fifth a day is were the land started to breakup, I think when the land staring to break up is where this 4 or so billion years can be traced, because of land plates moving around making new land, devouring old land.
What if we started backwards from the end of the fifth a day. we know that life was wiped out, but it is cool all the different ways the earth was hammered on during that fifth a day, the earth was a ball of ice at time.
Yahweh lite the earth with his glory in the first heaven, and Yahweh will light the earth with his glory in the third heaven; Lucifer, that dirty dog, jack everything up, but only for awhile.
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teachmevp
Hi, I have a point of view that one could think about, that is a deep subject your getting into there? In the DNA and RNA thread, I showed a machine like thing, and I showed how Lucifer took over the first heaven and earth, it was through that machine like thing; but no dinosaurs on that earth in the first heaven, but their could have been animals, and men and women, so to speak, because their was a garden with stones of fire on that earth in the first heaven. We know that Lucifer flooded that earth out, destroyed all ability for that machine like thing to function. The second heaven, and why it is around this earth, is a story in its self, but to jack with Satans mind, one could look at it this way, kill two birds with one stone, keep Satan in a none stop state of unknowingness, because Satan knows what he destroyed on that earth in the first heaven, and Satan knows that when Yahweh makes a move to redo that garden somehow, so to speak, that is where Satan will make his move, so this would be Satan's thinking? The first bird killed, so all this stuff starts living, so to speak, that machine like thing is back on the earth in the second heaven, 2027 can give you a full detail of all the things that lived on the earth, but what I think is so cool about all that crazy stuff going on, is how Yahweh kept destroying it, things would get a foot hold, a comet comes and destroys some of it, for over a 4 billons years this went on, so to speak. The second bird killed, all the oil and coal, land moving around on plates, mountains, and on and on. Now, no matter what, Satan knows Yahweh is going to redo somehow what Lucifer destroyed in that first garden, Yahweh has been keeping Satan is a constate state of confusion for over 4 billion years, Yahweh makes his move, that garden in Gen. I guess we could say 6 thousand years more or less, but that is why their was a garden on the earth in the second heaven, so to speak. Sorry for answering your thread, I am one of them, "-7"; hope this helps.
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year2027
God first
thanks What About It
I like your first question?
C-decay might help you think about it
C-decay is rate it takes everything to die, to be conceive, to be born, and to re-created again but look it up but take as everything decays
dinosaurs never die out they just evolve in size
creation took time in the beginning is a period of time
time was mark by the Sun until the Sun was turn on
from day and the beginning could measurement of time
one gain of dust has to have sex to made more gains of dust
Adam might of came out the water some 6,000 or so years ago but what God is talking a Godly day
with God the earth is only six plus days old right now
i going end now and wait for others to give their understanding
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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waysider
I think you have to hang onto the concept of "inerrancy" for the 6,000 year thing to make sense.
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Human without the bean
Good Question What About It one for which I do not have the answer.
I can tell you though (although not too accurately) that somewhere in Australia (I think) they have unearthed the oldest known remains of a living being (would we call it human), some 200,000 thousand years old.
Don't know what it was (scientists will draw some conclusions from that no wonder) :excl: or who it was but there were obviously people here before Adam who drew breath and walked and were alive. Their existence is undeniable.
The bible doesn't say anything about that, except if want to debate Gen 1.2. Was Void and Without Form.
I believe Satan brought all those species to an end. So, current man dates back only 6000 years. Doesn't negate that men weren't before that.
I also believe their were dinosaurs perhaps who walked with men.
Science, however places that an improbability.
That being said, I believe that God created man (as we know him) 6000 years ago.
I cannot explain however, what happened between that time----- that other types of life existed and the time that Satan was cast out of heaven and destroyed all living things on this planet.
I only believe that other life forms, and other species of life did exist and they were not mentioned in our bible.
After twi I have many questions myself that I beg to have answered. Maybe we can find answers here on TGS.
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TrustAndObey
I'm not a fan of much of VP's stuff.. Wouldn't glorify Usher's dates either.. Or Bullinger, or any other.. I love to keep my mind open to possibilities.. Only so far my mind's thrown out the whole Gen 1:2 "became" without form and void.. It lacked in the evidence department. So I don't subscribe to the first heaven/earth being destroyed by Satan. If anything I'd go with possibly the first being destroyed by the flood from what 1 Peters I believe mentions (and some have speculated the flood may not have even been worldwide and the words used in scripture could denote just a smaller contained area that destroyed life in that area)
As far as dinosaurs, we do have a Dinosaur State Park right down the road here.. And they have uncovered plenty of fossilized human's footsteps alongside and even within the same footstep as a dinosaur. Does that mean they coexisted? It's a possibility, one I'm willing to entertain. Also, notice all the civilizations that talk about dragons, including the scriptures. Only it is usually translated with a different word. These huge monstrous fire breathing beings, very possibly could have been one type of dinosaur that didn't become extinct until more recently. Even Alexander the Great was said to have seen one and had a large mosaic done of him with it. Even if they are just mythical, there is usually some truth to most myths.
And the whole 6000+ years... I've read some concerning both sides of the story, there's just too little time and too much info to go over it all, but the verdict is still out for me, only I'm still learning to it being still within the time frame..
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year2027
God first
thanks Human without the bean and TrustAndObey
dinosaurs are in the family of tree
http://museumvictoria.com.au/prehistoric/dinosaurs/dinotree.html
look at Crocodilian
http://museumvictoria.com.au/prehistoric/dinosaurs/crocodilian.html
there are Crocodilian alive today
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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waysider
There is a scientific theory that states that birds are not merely "descended" from dinosaurs, but, in fact, actually ARE dinosaurs. So, in a sense, if this theory proves to be true, you could say that man has and continues to walk amongst the dinosaurs.
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year2027
God first
thanks waysider
yes why not
the earth took millions to be form
"In the beginning" not the first day "In the beginning"
"God created the heaven and earth" it took time to form the heaven and earth
and created it
and made it
the was without form and void of purposes there was reason yet for God creation Yet
or to form it
or to made it
that just the way it was
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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teachmevp
Remember that garden that was on the earth in the first heaven in Ezekiel 28:13; their was life forms in that garden, their could have been something like those same life forms, that were in the garden in Gen.; it would seem that if dinosaurs were walking with men on this earth in the second heaven, after the garden, then dinosaurs would be walking with men on the earth in the first heaven?
2027, that is a good point, that Crocodilian thing; what if there were crocodiles on the earth in the first heaven; now, what if Yahweh changed the DNA code to make them big and mean looking on the earth in the second heaven, during that 4 or so billion years period before the garden in Gen., just to jack with Satan's mind, also just to jack with Satan's mind, Yahweh kept destroying those life forms on the earth in the second heaven, in one form or another? Then in the garden in Gen., the animals that were on the earth in the first heaven, were in that garden on earth in the second heaven, just to prove a point to Satan, hey buddy, who do you think your kidding? Just a thought.
Could it be, if on the earth in the first heaven, there were so many kinds, I do not know how to say that, in a way? Like on the earth in the first heaven, there are so many kinds, somehow that earth in the first heaven gets destroyed; Yahweh takes that same many kinds, and he twisted the code of the many kinds that was in that garden on the earth in first heaven's DNA and RNA machine like thing, same many kinds, but a twisted many kinds in a way, 4 or so billions years of that, Yahweh destroys that DNA and RNA machine like thing to function, then in the garden in Gen., Yahweh puts back the same DNA and RNA machine like thing code in the many kinds that was on the earth in the first heaven, in that garden on the earth in the second heaven? But on the earth in the second heaven, Yahweh can also have whales, and many more different kinds of many kinds? What did Yahweh tell to replenish the earth, of the many kinds? Could have Yahweh use some of that new twisted kind during that 4 or so billion years period, and add to some of the many kinds that were on the earth in the first heaven, which is now in the garden on the earth in second heaven, to make new kinds, like a platypus?
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Twinky
There are many cultures that can trace their history back through thousands of years. Chinese and Indian cultures particularly spring to mind.
Before that, more primitive cultures such as Stone Age man, Bronze Age man, existed way before Adam is said to have done. The datings for these cultures vary around the world, according to local knowledge and (presumably) materials. Radio-carbon dating gives what are considered fairly precise dates for each upswelling of knowledge or "scientific / technological advancement"...as much as man can say.
Perhaps you would find it helpful to consider Gen1 and Gen 2 as allegorical. They do give different versions of the "Creation story". Gen 1 is in the nature of a song, with the repetitive chorus, evening and morning were the nth day. Gen 2 is more of a summary.
There's a school of thought that suggests that when Jerusalem was repopulated under Ezra-Nehemiah, that when the book of the law was found...it was then subject to some textual revisions. To stake a claim, as it were.
It's also clear that there were other peoples about when A&E were having progeny...otherwise, why would Cain need to be afraid of other people killing him, after he had killed Abel?
Still pondering permutations myself; but the allegorical idea appeals most at present.
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Sunesis
Hello What About It :) I know when I left TWI, I took a nice long break from the Bible and eventually started reading things I found interesting. Although, when I look back, I'd get an idea, a thought, start reading and over the years its been interesting to look back and see how God has taught me - His own things He wanted to teach me - not what TWI wanted to teach me. Its been a wonderful journey. But, hey, if you don't want to touch the bible for the next 10 months or 10 years - do what you need to do for you.
But, as to your question, a few years ago I started wondering too.
So, I guess I have to go with, what is called in theological circles, the "Gap Theory."
I believe you have Gen 1:1 - perfect earth, perfect heavens, perfect spiritual beings.
Gen 1:2 - earth "becomes" without form and void (in Isaiah it also says I did not form it without form and void). I believe the darkness was God's judgment for Satan's attemped overthrow.
I believe from Gen. 1:2 on, God then begins to restore the earth.
I feel dinosaurs were after the restoration of the earth, but before man.
But, there are also other speculations that they were before the judgment and darkness of Gen 1:2 and not on the newly restored earth. If so, what they were and why - also has some curious answers, but that's for another thread.
I believe the earth is 4 billion or so years old, as are angels and whatever else was there. You had the first flood, or judgment of Gen 1:2, then it was restored. This all took time - billions of years.
As for modern "man" as we know him - I don't believe in a 6,000 year timeline. That came about, as another poster mentioned by one person a few centuries ago who decided to add up years in the Bible - and was wrong. There are various reasons, but, that's another thread.
I do believe we need to make a distinction between modern man and "homonids" - which is what all the ancient skeletons are, like Lucy, cavemen, etc. - the humanoid type beings which preceded modern man as we know him.
Homonids have been found as far back as 4 million years ago. There were many different types. They came, they went, new ones pop up - if you see them charted - its fasciniating. I'll post the pic I'm thinking of. All different types at all different times, it looks like someone or something was "experimenting."
Anyway, Homonids - various types - lived right up until neanderthal man.
I believe, hominds - including neaderthal and cro-magnon - were very similar to us - modern humans - but were not us - of modern homo sapiens - humans.
Just like chimpanzees are 99.98, or some amazingly close number to us humans, the same DNA as us - but they are different - you would not call chimps human. I think hominids were more like various types of apes, monkeys, chimps and were not related to humans and we are not descended from them.
I think the last of the hominids were wiped out during the flood of Noah or in the last ice age.
I think humans - as we know them have been around since about 100,000 to 50,000 years ago. I know scientists trace the modern human "Eve" DNA to about that time - we all came from one "mother."
Also, as to Adam and Eve - just as Jesus Christ was inserted into mankind, into man's history 2000 years ago, I have often wondered if Adam was also inserted into mankind. That would explain why there were other people around when Cain was thrown out of the Garden.
As to dinosaurs, they could have lived either time really - before the "restoration" or since the earth's restoration.
There's an excellent Christian Ph.D. Biophysisist named Hugh Ross who has a great website discussing things like this scientifically. I've read some of his books. As I said, he's a scientist, not a "young earth" creationist and is great to read. He may help answer some of your questions.
Below is the Hominid chart. click and it will enlarge and you can see how varied they were.
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sirguessalot
i sometimes wonder if the story of Adam is a story of "the missing link"...and not just an individual man...but a symbol for those original waves of humanity to pop up out of the pure wild earth...pre-egoic primal instinctual foraging/hunting culture...the "ape-man."
and perhaps the story of Adam and Eve is a story about those original waves of matriarchal tribal shamanistic humanity...speaking to snakes on trees being a sign of early horticultural relationship with the earth and "motherhood of the ape-man." ...as if Eve fed Adam something he did not know he could eat.
and then maybe the story of Cain and Abel is a story about an original clash of waves...how agricultural tyranny and patriarchy works with its younger hunter-gatherer siblings.
whether UFOs, angels, giants or big egos...along came those original waves of giant military industrial monocultures...bringing about the desertification of Eden.
then there is Noah...a story of those original waves of holistic emergency polycultural container-gardening life-boat experiments ...life in the wake of when giant monocultures fall apart.
Abraham to Moses...stories of those original waves of homeless untribed vagabonds in the desert...landless nameless exiles, refugees and slaves..."dark night of the soul."
Moses to Solomon...stories of those original waves of learning how to find a home and regenerate the desertified.
Essenes and Jesus and beyond...stories of the original waves of sustaining and propagating the regeneration of the earth...final return to Eden and Revelation...where the first is last...and the leaves of the garden are used to heal the world.
the end
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teachmevp
Spiritually trying to understand this, still confused?
Bummer the way teaches that spiritually stuff, that always confused me?
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chockfull
Reconciling carbon dating with Biblical records is always an entertaining endeavor
I have read anecdotes of carbon dating placing volcanic rock at 1M years old, surrounding a pocket of a mosquito larvae known to not be more than 14,000 years old.
However, on the other end of the spectrum, I don't think Usher's dates, which consist of trying to timeline the Bible, are 100% trustworthy either. I don't think that God's intent was to write a history timeline.
My views tend to fall somewhere in the middle of that. I think mankind's timeline is older than 6000 years. I think dinosaur's and hominid's timelines may be more recent than dates thrown out there.
I do feel there is leeway for the gap theory between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. But I'm a little leery as to placing exact timelines into that gap, for reasons stated above.
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teachmevp
I am learning their is way too much world teachings to muddle through, it is crazy all the religions points of views.
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Steve Lortz
Yep. That's about where I was in my thinking when somebody told me about PFAL in 1979. I was sold out to TWI's point of view until after I left CES in 1996. Right now, I think there are a few simple truths I can trust. I'm willing to listen to anybody's reasoning, but I'm very, very picky about what I'm willing to buy into.
as Roy would say, with love and a holy kiss.... Steve
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teachmevp
It would be cool for us to agree on this story, but I think the art of reasoning is gone with the wind.
Which religion is right in their point of views.
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Sunesis
I get most of my info from non-christian, science websites. The chart I posted was from a science evolution site - and I found it fascinating, to see homonid history over millions of years mapped out, overlapping, dying out, new group here, new one there - was something experimenting? What was going on? To see it is to go, this is strange - you wonder, spiritually, what was happening? But I find geology, archeology, timelines - they're all there to see and most scientists do agree.
They know, from the geological record, there was the, what I'll call, first period of life - small organisms. That ended.
Then, all of a sudden, came the "Cambrian Explosion" - or, the big bang, so to speak, of life as we know it now.
So, if there was a judgment and the earth was in and out of the waters in Gen 1:2 - when did this happen in the fossil record?
If there was a later, Noah's flood - where is it in the fossil record?
Can science and what the Bible tells us fit? Maybe. Its up to us to take the evidence and figure things out.
The Book of Job - read it from a geologist/meteorologist point of view - we know he was very close to Noah after the flood. Look at what it says about the geology, the land, the weather - what does he say about the men who "live in caves"? Interesting stuff.
Lots of other cool stuff.
I was always very interested in man, where did he come from, evolved, created - what? Timelines of hominid/homo sapiens are fascinating. How do they fit in with the geologic timeline? Lot's of neat things if you we to know.
But, I do go with science on universe/earth age and how it formed.
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teachmevp
We have that power of Yahweh in us, so we can look at this from Yahweh's point of view, that fifth day period is where most of the time in this story, 4 or so billion years. It is a trip all the life that started popping up in them days, what is cool is how Yahweh kept destroying that different life throughout that fifth day period.
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Bramble
There was some type of aridification event around 2200 BC that led to the collapse of civilizations(Egyptian) in the middle east and perhaps other areas. Desert, famine , deluge...some Bible events could be related to this time of upheaval.
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cman
the bible could present timelines
if looked at from a personal inward, and experience pov
to rate it as history from a purely outward sense would miss great value
that is needed, though not in any certain order
if you jump in at five where is 123467
still hangin around i reckon/reason
if seen would 5 be different?
if the first is last, the last first
and the beginning the end, the end the beginning
where is the middle
or as it says the 'midst'
still the trees and Gods are there as in the beginning/end....
first and last
i think of trees as deep rooted
if one had to be pulled roots and all-destroyed
others would fill the fresh soil/gap..
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teachmevp
Great point on that tree, I wrote the best I knew of this on the tread First Heaven without the angles and earth, it is toward the bottom of the tread, I tried to lay it out like that 123456, I didn't get to much into 6 because we somewhat know that story. I chose 5 here because that is where most of the time took place 4 or 5 billion years or so, cool stuff though.
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year2027
God first
thanks everybody
that we get thinking we can lay out a time line
were do we begin?
how long was the beginning yes I said the beginning?
how long was a day 12 hrs or 24 hrs or 1,000 years or 2,000 years?
because it reads a day for the Lord is 1,000 years but what about the night?
the beginning = the time it took to form, made, and created the heaven and earth
after the heaven and earth was created, made, and form
it would take less time for step maybe about 2,000 years a Godly Day and Night
who said Adam was not in the form of worm that evolve to man as we know him
give it some thought
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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teachmevp
I think the earth is key to the age of those days, but how long was the earth in the beginning of the second heaven, before Yahweh separated some kind of light from the thick darkness, the land was in one chunk under water at that beginning, in the fifth a day is were the land started to breakup, I think when the land staring to break up is where this 4 or so billion years can be traced, because of land plates moving around making new land, devouring old land.
What if we started backwards from the end of the fifth a day. we know that life was wiped out, but it is cool all the different ways the earth was hammered on during that fifth a day, the earth was a ball of ice at time.
Yahweh lite the earth with his glory in the first heaven, and Yahweh will light the earth with his glory in the third heaven; Lucifer, that dirty dog, jack everything up, but only for awhile.
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