i think its safe to say that different theologies lead to different conclusions, and im guessing we probably don't quite agree on the meaning and nature of words like "God," "Christ," and "conversion"...which is ok with me. English is a wild and unruly language, imho.
i dont see the contradiction between newness of life coming after contemplation of death. St. Paul referred to the seed that dies in order to live. Jesus died so life could follow. I would go as far as to say that newness of life does not come until after death. Even conversion is referring to some sort of death.
From a Guidepost article by a hospice nurse who relays lasting impressions of last words by precious people who are leaving this life
Helen was diagnosed with a deadly cancer that should have taken her life in about two to three months. She lived two and a half years. She lived with anger and resentment because of her husband's unfaithfulness in their early years. By God's grace alone, she began to understand how to find the peace she needed to let go. When her doctor asked her what had kept her here so long, she said to him, "I had to learn to forgive." He was stunned. Helen died peacefully shortly thereafter.
I included this quote because this woman found peace when she forgave, which was a miracle in her her life and allowed her peace at the end of her life. The hospice nurse who provided this example is a kind kind of Christian who loves and prays for all her patients, and the link provided can take you to more stories from her time as a hospice nurse.
In my opinion, loving kindness provides an extra measure of grace for those who have not known God's mercy in their lives by which they can find rest to their souls. Mother Teresa also had a ministry and began her earth shattering career by simply providing a measure of compassion and dignity to abandoned homeless people who were dying on the streets of Calcutta. There is just no telling what miracles a touch of kindness can bring to a suffering soul at any stage of his/her life. And, in my opinion, being able to forgive is one of the greatest miracles that can come to a soul callused from walking in a cruel environment.
Having just spent a bit of around the clock (literally) time with people who work in Hospice care....I have no complaints about their charter or their commitment and care. I thank God for them. The extra support was wonderful and the advocacy for pain relief really helpful. . . . . helpful for me, because I was fighting for, but actually WITH the person in unimaginable pain. He was in complete denial about what was happening and decided to embrace his pain from cancer. It happens more than people would think. That pain became his hope for life.
Hospice is there for pain relief and support, but the person who is at the end of their life is in the driver seat as to how they die...not hospice. I am not sure why the era of their charter would even matter....or the art of dying....whatever that means to you. If someone is in denial ...they are not accepting of death. Period.
I could not even get him to accept hospice coming in to help me....that was done with a wink and a nod with the Hospice intake Pastor......pretending the patient had agreed. We tricked him. We had to. I was the one who needed their help.
In the end...I had to override his say with a health care proxy.....he was in agony and we medicated him enough to relieve much of his pain. By then he was to weak to speak.
People don't always get to the stage of acceptance when dying...and I learned that these stages of acceptance are not so clear cut. . . . . denial and anger can intercept. It wasn't as if he wasn't told and told to prepare....sometimes with such bluntness it made me wince.....but, what he heard was completely different than what was said. That happens a great deal from what the Doc's and nurses told me.
What I just went through was a heart wrenching horror show .... with a man who wanted to live and had a stranglehold on denial. Until his body totally betrayed him.....he fought to stay alive.
If not for Hospice...I am not sure I would have made it through. Death is an ugly enemy.
Thanks for telling more of the story Geisha. Sounds like an ugly experience for both of you.
Unless someone passes old and full of years....death usually is an ugly experience for those who love. . . . . . it hurts. Ask anyone who has lost a child.
Death is an enemy, IMO. Even when someone has lived a full and happy life...to lose them can still sting. That is why Christians comfort each other with the hope of something better. 1 Thessalonians 4:18
Oddly enough, for me, an ex-twier.....one of the most poignant moments I had during this time was when the priest actually administered the "Last Rites". I stayed in the room and participated. I am not a Catholic....anymore ...and I don't believe that Last Rites gets anyone eternal life, but what struck me was the deeply human element to it all. The priest was a young guy....he radiated kindness and he really believed in what he was doing, but what I found more touching was the prayer on behalf of the person dying....asking God to forgive them.
It was so tender.....seeking forgiveness from God on behalf of another. It struck me as such a beautiful human longing . The prayer moved me and I earnestly joined my voice and heart.
I think asking God for forgiveness while we still can is so important. I think what is often very difficult is accepting that forgiveness from God. That is not always easy unless we understand what it cost or why we need it. I am of the mind that God paid a hefty price to offer us that forgiveness and it is not to be ignored while we live.
Doctrinal/theological issues regarding death and dying aside, while we can look at overall forgiveness, seems to me it also helps to notice the different types of forgiveness we are challenged by.
As i see them:
- Being forgiven by God (like Geisha pointed out)
- Being forgiven by someone else (an individual or group, living or dead).
- Forgiving our self.
- Forgiving a person, or group.
- Forgiving God/reality/the universe.
imho, all of them are valid and a part of our lives and the TWI experience, and each one has at least a Psalm.
Here are some percentages from a hospice educator regarding the dominant forgiveness issues based on 500 patients at the end of their life:
yeah....regret, guilt, self-loathing, cynicism...even dealing with the anti-humanity attitude that comes with the onset of the spiritual desert/wilderness experience.
but like st paul seemed to say..."dont stop the singing, and dont forget how and why."
like how some psalms were written by someone who could not forgive God (or self, or others)
...to be sung by people who cannot not forgive God (or self, or others)
...or played for those who cannot forgive God (or self, or others)
some rock n roll works well, too
as with most all genres
a lot of music is like that,
but the psalms were written specifically to help identify and alleviate dis-ease of the soul.
...like a tuning fork to help us locate and extract the most hidden kinds of thorns.
Forgiveness, of self or of another, may be the most transformative change any of us experiences. When we forgive, we release both ourselves and the person we forgive from resentment and anger. It's the ultimate act of letting go and moving on.Letting go of anger and resentment, as corrosive to the soul as they are, is incredibly hard for most of us. Living with a resentment can become strangely comfortable, like an aching tooth you keep poking with your tongue. In a world filled with shades of gray, there's a reassuring moral clarity in believing we're the victim of someone's misdeed or bad intentions. Besides, why should we accept a wrong that has been done to us? An injustice? A misdeed that cries out for retribution? But remember, the forgiver has the power. The offending action can't be undone, so forgiveness is the only way to release us from its dominance. That's why forgiving is a powerful act of personal liberation. It is the counteraction, the spiritual antidote to wrongful action. Most happy people know how to forgive. Most unhappy ones do not.
If you have ever forgiven something big, you know the experience is one of the most powerful and exhilarating a human can have. It is instant growth and change, because it clears out the negative drag of the past. With each person or act we refuse to pardon, a part of us dwells in that past, anchored to that bitterness, reliving the hurt again and again. The more unforgiving we are, the more ensnared we become.We spin our emotional wheels. Anyone who has clung to a resentment knows how exhausting it becomes. And in a fundamental way, it's illogically self-destructive: like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Change, I maintain, is impossible without forgiveness. Don't even attempt it.
If forgiveness is so purifying, why does it seem so difficult not only to forgive others, but especially to forgive ourselves? This last part is critical, since all forgiveness starts with forgiving the self, with having the capacity to accept our shortcomings and failings and move on.
When you change, you are seemingly rejecting something in yourself—a character trait or habit that has become bound up in who you assumed you were—skepticism, arrogance, poor self-image, fear of the unknown, self-doubt, materialism, pridefulness. Change requires that you forgive yourself for these traits and move on. Personal change begins with self-forgiveness, and self-forgiveness depends on our capacity to love ourselves. In fact, we don't necessarily reject an a aspect of ourselves when we change; we often transform it.
when I was in the way, it seemed like I was forever seeking forgiveness from others for something I didn't even know I had done.
The humility of seeking forgiveness when we don't know what the other person is holding against us I think is a mark of excellent spirit when the humility and lack of pride is real. I know that I have been humbled when a friend has come up to me "seeking forgiveness for something they didn't know what they did" and I felt that they cared more of our friendship than whatever was separating us. However, now I know now that so much of our twi life was judged not by the Holy Spirit but by the sham and show of things, and this could have been just a ruse to obtain my trust (which worked). Now I trust in the Lord more and I pray that those who walked with the Lord, He would show them what a blessing they really were and convict those who were using godly appearing methods to use and abuse others so they could find the true heart of kindness of the Lord.
I received this from Francis Frangipane Ministry this week and it went to my heart because in the area of weeding my own garden I have always tried to be sure to keep bitterness from taking root. I thought someone else here would like it also perhaps:
"See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled" (Heb. 12:15).
It is impossible to pass through this world without being struck by injustice or heartache. Unless we process our struggles in Christ, a single wounding of our soul can create a deep bitterness within us, poisoning our very existence. In my forty-plus years of ministry, I have known far too many Christians who have perfected the art of looking polite, while living inwardly with an angry, cynical or resentful spirit. They have swallowed the poison of bitterness and they are dying spiritually because of it. The problem is that, as Christians, we know it is wrong to react with open anger toward people. However, rather than truly forgiving and surrendering that injustice to God, we suppress our anger. Anger is a result of perceived injustice. Suppressed anger always degrades into bitterness, which is, in reality, unfulfilled revenge.
Embittered People
The Bible not only provides the biographies of heroes of our faith, but it also documents the lives of common people, individuals who experienced the same kind of heartaches as we do. Some overcame wounding or loss and subsequent bitterness, while others became examples to avoid.
Consider Naomi from the book of Ruth. A famine in Israel led Naomi's family to migrate to Moab. Without family or friends to support her, as aliens in a foreign land, Naomi then suffered the loss of her husband; his death was followed by the death of her two grown sons. When Naomi returned to Israel with Ruth, her daughter-in-law, she announced to those who knew her, "Do not call me Naomi; call me Mara [bitter], for the Almighty has dealt very bitterly with me" (Ruth 1:20).
The name Naomi means "pleasant." We can imagine that when Naomi was dedicated to God as an infant, her parents prayed that her name would forecast her future. Now, however, the very opposite had occurred. Naomi was deeply embittered by her loss, to the extreme of blaming "the Almighty" for dealing "very bitterly" with her.
If you have ever listened to a bitter person, there is nothing "pleasant" about them. Yes, we should weep with those who weep, yet a bitter soul is a spirit trapped in a time warp; they live in the memory of their pain. Several years ago I met a woman who had suffered a difficult divorce. I talked with her every six months or so for two years, and each time we talked she said exactly the same negative things about her ex-husband. Although she was divorced from him, she was now married to a bitter spirit that held her captive to her heartache.
An embittered soul is one that continually blames someone else for their situation. For Naomi, her bitterness was actually focused towards God. She was angry that He allowed hardship and loss in her life. "The Lord has brought me back empty" (Ruth 1:21). In effect she was saying, My sorrow is God's fault.
Contrast her life with that of Job's first encounter with loss (Job 1:1-22). Job lost his children and possessions, yet he bowed and worshiped: "The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21).
How we handle sorrow reveals the depth of our worship of God. When life cuts us, do we bleed bitterness or worship? Job bowed and drew close to God. Naomi withdrew and talked about the Lord with her back to Him. I have dear friends who lost their only son when he was a teenager. In the midst of their heartache, they have become examples to everyone of true worship. Over the years, their pain actually purified and deepened their worship; their suffering made them more compassionate toward the suffering of others (See 2 Cor. 1:3-4). I also know others who have suffered the sudden loss of a loved one and, within weeks, withdrew from God and became embittered. Adversity does not perfect character; it reveals character. It exposes what is happening inside of us.
Poisoned
In ancient times mankind experimented with vegetation, seeking to learn which plants were edible and which were poisonous. In his search, he discovered that, generally speaking, if a plant or fruit was sweet, it was usually safe to eat; bitter plants, man discovered, would either sicken or kill. Likewise, the bitter experiences of life, if we ingest them into our spirits, can become a spiritual poison that destroys our hopeful expectations and attitudes. Such an experience may enter your soul via a relational wound or injustice; it can begin through a major disappointment or loss. However, once bitterness enters the human soul, like ink spreading in a glass of water, it can darken every aspect of our existence.
Indeed, not only can bitterness ruin our lives, Hebrews warns that a root of bitterness can "defile many" (Heb. 12:15 NIV). A spiritual root of bitterness is a hidden, unresolved anger that is buried beneath the surface of our lives. Outwardly, we look "properly Christian" until we begin to discuss with others the situation where someone hurt us. As we speak, that root "springs up" and it defiles others. If you haven't dealt with your bitterness, beware when you speak to others, lest you defile them with your words. If you are listening to an embittered person, take heed that the spirit of bitterness is not being transferred to your life as well!
Neglect
In Genesis we find another bitter soul in Esau, the brother of Jacob. Esau had foolishly bargained away his inheritance when he was young and then lost his father's blessing when he was old. When Esau discovered he had lost both to his brother Jacob, the Bible tells us he "cried out with an exceedingly great and bitter cry" (Gen. 27:34).
To lose something through our laziness or neglect can create bitterness of soul. Additionally, to have someone deceive us and take what was rightfully ours is equally as destructive. I know people who were lazy and did not esteem their education. Today they are bitter employees working for minimum wage. I also know young, unwed mothers who let deceitful boys steal their virginity, which later also embittered them. Even spiritual people can find themselves suffering with bitterness caused by neglect. I know a pastor who was so devoted to his ministry, he consistently neglected his wife. She finally divorced him. Cry and plead with her as he would, he suffered the bitter loss of his wife, the emotional estrangement of his kids, and the respect of his church.
Esau's loss made him very bitter. Yet, have we, like Esau, lost the more valuable elements of life because of our neglect? Have others received blessings that were earmarked for us, and has that loss created bitterness within us? May the Lord reveal to us these roots of bitterness that, like time-released poison, are quietly killing us.
God desires to return to us our ability to love and laugh again. Let us, therefore, sincerely approach the throne of God's grace and ask Him to show us the garden of our hearts. Yes, and let us see if our souls are truly free of the root of bitterness.
An incident which impressed me deeply then and its impress has never faded happened when I was in the vicinity of ten years old. My father had told me to go to bed. I honestly thought he meant when I had finished a quite legitimate and proper occupation, for I was hobnobbing with a little crony of my age who had come to the house with an older person. I remained talking with him. My father, later passing through the room and finding that I had not obeyed him, spoke with that directness of which he was capable, called brusqueness by some, and ordered me to bed at once. There was no standing on the order of my going after this. I retreated, frightened and in tears, for such a tone of voice was a new experience in my life. I hurried to bed, but before I had time to fall asleep, he was at my bedside, kneeling and asking my forgiveness for the harsh way in which he had spoken to me, the tears falling down over his rugged, bearded face. That was nearly half a century ago, but I would exchange any memory of life before I would surrender that. For all unknowing he was laying for me the consciousness of the Fatherhood of God, and the love of God No sermon on the prodigal's father, and no words on the love of God have cast quite such a light as his huge figure kneeling in the twilight by my bed, asking the forgiveness of a child.
Paul Dwight Moody
It takes a sensitivity of spirit to recognize one's own sin and ask forgiveness.
Received an email today with the lesson of the Honey Bee as a comparison to anger and how anger destroys the Honey Bee.
The honey bee (or any bee I think) in his wrath sticks his stinger into a person who will get a little bump in most cases (yes there are some who are so allergic to the sting of a bee or wasp he or she could die, but this is rare. We had lots of bees around when I was growing up and bee stings were usual and customary occurrences.)
The bee's sting is always fatal to the bee.
And this analogy can be carried to unforgiveness, in my opinion.
Our wrath may sting our victim more or less depending upon the sensitivity of our target, but unforgiveness is always fatal to the one holding the grudge. That root of bitterness grows within and destroys the fruits of the kindness of God, and the promise of God's Word in II Corinthians 2 documents that lack of forgiveness is the primary way satan gets advantage of us.
Excathedra. I don't know what is the relationship of bitterness to unforgiveness. From what I could see in the Bible, bitterness can come upon us (like it did with Naomi). But Naomi appeared to go with the flow of God's kind deliverance and although she told her family and friends when returning home from Moab that she should be called "bitter," there is no indication that her name was changed to "bitter." And Naomi was the one who knew that Boaz was a good man and would do right by Ruth.
I wonder if Naomi knew she was performing as a prophet -- guiding Ruth in the way to go so that the Christ line would not be lost. (Something else to find out about once I get to heaven, if I haven't found out before then.)
So it now appears to me (and this may change because it's an "opinion" formed from reading between the lines that I know) that unforgiveness is something we must consciously and continuously work at and that bitterness appears to be like a "disease" which comes upon us and which the Lord can heal when we trust Him.
From Francis Frangipane regarding how forgiveness helps us not get deceived in our "discernment"
The Gift of Discernment
If we will move in true discernment, our view of life must be purged of human thoughts and reactions. We must perceive life through the eyes of Christ.To Discern, You Cannot Judge
We will never possess true discernment until we crucify our instincts to judge. Realistically, this can take months or even years of uprooting old thought-systems that have not been planted in the divine soil of faith and love for people. To appropriate the discernment that is in the "mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:16), we must first find the heart of Christ. The heart and love of Jesus is summed up in His own words: "I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (John 12:47).
Spiritual discernment is the grace to see into the unseen. It is a gift of the Spirit to perceive the realm of the spirit. Its purpose is to understand the nature of that which is veiled. However, the first veil that must be removed is the veil over our own hearts. For the capacity to see into that which is in another's heart comes from Christ revealing that which is in our own hearts. Before He reveals the sin of another, Jesus demands we grasp our own deep need of His mercy. Thus, out of the grace that we have received, we can compassionately minister grace to others. We will know thoroughly that the true gift of discernment is not a faculty of our minds.
Christ's goal is to save, not judge. We are called to navigate the narrow and well-hidden path into the true nature of men's needs. If we would truly help men, we must remember, we are following a Lamb.
This foundation must be laid correctly, for in order to discern, you cannot react. To perceive, you must make yourself blind to what seems apparent. People may react to you, but you cannot react to them. You must always remain forgiving in nature, for the demons you cast out will challenge you, masquerading as the very voice of the person you seek to deliver. You must discern the difference between the oppressing spirit and the person oppressed.
Thus, Jesus prepared His disciples to be proactive in their forgiveness. Using Himself as their example, He taught, "Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him" (Luke 12:10). Jesus prepared His heart to forgive men before they ever sinned against Him. He knew His mission was to die for men, not condemn them.
Likewise, we are called to His mission as well. In His prayer to the Father, Jesus said, "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them" (John 17:18). We are called to die that others may live. Therefore, we must realize that before our perception develops, our love must mature until our normal attitude is one of forgiveness. Should God reveal to us the hearts of men and then call us to release them from captivity, we cannot react to what they say. As our perception becomes more like Christ Himself and the secrets of men's hearts are revealed to us, we cannot even react to what they think.
If we do not move in divine forgiveness, we will walk in much deception. We will presume we have discernment when, in truth, we are seeing through the veil of a critical spirit. We must know our weaknesses, for if we are blind to our sins, what we assume we discern in men will merely be the reflection of ourselves. Indeed, if we do not move in love, we will actually become a menace to the body of Christ.
This is exactly what Jesus taught when He said:
Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ---Matthew 7:1-5
Repentance is the removal of the "logs" within our vision; it is the true beginning of seeing clearly. There are many who suppose they are receiving the Lord's discernment concerning one thing or another. Perhaps in some things they are; only God knows. But many are simply judging others and calling it discernment. Jesus commanded us to judge not. The same eternal hand that wrote the Law on stones in the old covenant is writing the law of the kingdom on tablets of flesh today. This word to "not judge" (by "outer appearance") is just as immutable as His Ten Commandments. It is still God speaking.
The Goal is To See Clearly
The judgmental carnal mind always sees the image of itself in others. Without realizing it is seeing itself, it assumes it is perceiving others. Jesus refers to the person who judges as a "hypocrite." The Lord is not saying we should totally stop thinking about people. He wants us to be able to help one another. The emphasis in Jesus' command to "not judge" is summarized in His concluding remark: "First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." The way we help is not by judging but by seeing clearly. And we do not see clearly until we have been through deep and thorough repentance, until the instinct to judge after the flesh is uprooted.
We have seen that Jesus paralleled speaking to people about their sins with taking specks out of their eyes. The eye is the most tender, most sensitive part of the human body. How do you take a speck out of someone's eye? Very carefully! First, you must win their trust. This means consistently demonstrating an attitude that does not judge, one that will not instinctively condemn. To help others, we must see clearly.
If you seek to have a heart that does not condemn, you must truly crucify your instinct to judge. Then you will have laid a true foundation for the gift of discernment, for you will have prepared your heart to receive the dreams, visions and insights from God. You will be unstained by human bias and corruption.
Concerning forgiveness and the "root of bitterness":
I heard this often while in TWI. Many warnings against living in the past. Just get over it. Why am I so bitter?
Invariably they would pull the "root of bitterness" card on me and quote Hebrews 12:15.
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;
Certainly I don't want to be like the children of Israel in the wilderness, bitter and whining. Many of them were defiled because of this. I don't want to be defiled do I? Don't be so bitter.
Sounds legit doesn't it? Well, after hearing this so often I finally thought I'd try to find out what this root of bitterness is.
Hebrews 12:15 is a direct reference to a verse in the OT, namely Deuteronomy 29:18.It seemed to me that the whole 29th chapter of Deuteronomy is a warning against idolatry. I'm not going get into a lot of it here, take a look yourself and see what you think. But this from Jamieson, Fausset and Brown on Hebrews 12:15;
"root of bitterness--not merely a "bitter root," which might possibly bring forth sweet fruits; this, a root whose essence is "bitterness," never could. Paul here refers to Deuteronomy 29:18, "Lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood" (compare Acts 8:23). Root of bitterness comprehends every person (compare Hebrews 12:16) and every principle of doctrine or practice so radically corrupt as to spread corruption all around. The only safety is in rooting out such a root of bitterness."
So in the end I took TWI's advice, I looked diligently lest a root of bitterness springing up troubled me: I rooted TWI and their radically corrupt principles of doctrine and practice right out of my life!
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bowtwi
This might seem more appropriate for the Doctrinal forum, but please bear with my preference to see it here. I believe that The Way screwed up hugely where forgiveness is concerned and many of us hav
Kit Sober
Received an email today with the lesson of the Honey Bee as a comparison to anger and how anger destroys the Honey Bee. The honey bee (or any bee I think) in his wrath sticks his stinger into a perso
Oakspear
In case anyone doesn't already know, I am neither a Christian nor an atheist, but I do have some opinions about forgiveness. For day-to-day small stuff, I find that it's not worth the effort to thin
sirguessalot
thanks for putting it out there, Jbarrax.
i think its safe to say that different theologies lead to different conclusions, and im guessing we probably don't quite agree on the meaning and nature of words like "God," "Christ," and "conversion"...which is ok with me. English is a wild and unruly language, imho.
i dont see the contradiction between newness of life coming after contemplation of death. St. Paul referred to the seed that dies in order to live. Jesus died so life could follow. I would go as far as to say that newness of life does not come until after death. Even conversion is referring to some sort of death.
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Kit Sober
I included this quote because this woman found peace when she forgave, which was a miracle in her her life and allowed her peace at the end of her life. The hospice nurse who provided this example is a kind kind of Christian who loves and prays for all her patients, and the link provided can take you to more stories from her time as a hospice nurse.
In my opinion, loving kindness provides an extra measure of grace for those who have not known God's mercy in their lives by which they can find rest to their souls. Mother Teresa also had a ministry and began her earth shattering career by simply providing a measure of compassion and dignity to abandoned homeless people who were dying on the streets of Calcutta. There is just no telling what miracles a touch of kindness can bring to a suffering soul at any stage of his/her life. And, in my opinion, being able to forgive is one of the greatest miracles that can come to a soul callused from walking in a cruel environment.
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sirguessalot
amen, Kit. to all points.
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geisha779
Sir G,
Having just spent a bit of around the clock (literally) time with people who work in Hospice care....I have no complaints about their charter or their commitment and care. I thank God for them. The extra support was wonderful and the advocacy for pain relief really helpful. . . . . helpful for me, because I was fighting for, but actually WITH the person in unimaginable pain. He was in complete denial about what was happening and decided to embrace his pain from cancer. It happens more than people would think. That pain became his hope for life.
Hospice is there for pain relief and support, but the person who is at the end of their life is in the driver seat as to how they die...not hospice. I am not sure why the era of their charter would even matter....or the art of dying....whatever that means to you. If someone is in denial ...they are not accepting of death. Period.
I could not even get him to accept hospice coming in to help me....that was done with a wink and a nod with the Hospice intake Pastor......pretending the patient had agreed. We tricked him. We had to. I was the one who needed their help.
In the end...I had to override his say with a health care proxy.....he was in agony and we medicated him enough to relieve much of his pain. By then he was to weak to speak.
People don't always get to the stage of acceptance when dying...and I learned that these stages of acceptance are not so clear cut. . . . . denial and anger can intercept. It wasn't as if he wasn't told and told to prepare....sometimes with such bluntness it made me wince.....but, what he heard was completely different than what was said. That happens a great deal from what the Doc's and nurses told me.
What I just went through was a heart wrenching horror show .... with a man who wanted to live and had a stranglehold on denial. Until his body totally betrayed him.....he fought to stay alive.
If not for Hospice...I am not sure I would have made it through. Death is an ugly enemy.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
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Jbarrax
(((((((Geisha779)))))))))
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Watered Garden
Geisha I'm so sorry for your ordeal.
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sirguessalot
Thanks for telling more of the story Geisha. Sounds like an ugly experience for both of you.
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cman
this is a most interesting phrase and turn of events
and very present tense
to destroy death seems like a contradiction of terms
like die/die or kill/kill
what is it to destroy? what is death?
Brother J said he would destroy his life and build it again
anyway just letting that settle in....
taking care of the dieing is to be far-sighted in some things
shorter in others...
not waiting till you have to
e pointed out that should or can it be done
yeah it can, often it does not
to die well, even if you have to cram at the end
not preferred, but doable as Kit pointed out
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geisha779
Unless someone passes old and full of years....death usually is an ugly experience for those who love. . . . . . it hurts. Ask anyone who has lost a child.
Death is an enemy, IMO. Even when someone has lived a full and happy life...to lose them can still sting. That is why Christians comfort each other with the hope of something better. 1 Thessalonians 4:18
Oddly enough, for me, an ex-twier.....one of the most poignant moments I had during this time was when the priest actually administered the "Last Rites". I stayed in the room and participated. I am not a Catholic....anymore ...and I don't believe that Last Rites gets anyone eternal life, but what struck me was the deeply human element to it all. The priest was a young guy....he radiated kindness and he really believed in what he was doing, but what I found more touching was the prayer on behalf of the person dying....asking God to forgive them.
It was so tender.....seeking forgiveness from God on behalf of another. It struck me as such a beautiful human longing . The prayer moved me and I earnestly joined my voice and heart.
I think asking God for forgiveness while we still can is so important. I think what is often very difficult is accepting that forgiveness from God. That is not always easy unless we understand what it cost or why we need it. I am of the mind that God paid a hefty price to offer us that forgiveness and it is not to be ignored while we live.
See that....back to topic. :)
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cman
yeah, I think death is on topic with forgiveness
something has to die live a new thought pattern
and not so much the end of our life but every day stuff
like the first post here
it covers a lot of ground
opens a lot for consideration
to parallel dieing with changing is life
a lot of things have died in me
a lot of things have become new and living
true of anyone paying any attention I suppose
even things beyond our control
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sirguessalot
Doctrinal/theological issues regarding death and dying aside, while we can look at overall forgiveness, seems to me it also helps to notice the different types of forgiveness we are challenged by.
As i see them:
- Being forgiven by God (like Geisha pointed out)
- Being forgiven by someone else (an individual or group, living or dead).
- Forgiving our self.
- Forgiving a person, or group.
- Forgiving God/reality/the universe.
imho, all of them are valid and a part of our lives and the TWI experience, and each one has at least a Psalm.
Here are some percentages from a hospice educator regarding the dominant forgiveness issues based on 500 patients at the end of their life:
- with self 66%
- with others 17%
- with God 6%
- multi-level 11%
seems we posted at the same time, cman.
and yeah, "dying" means a lot more than "dying."
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excathedra
thank you for all the insight you guys
love,e
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cman
in a way it has nothing to do with love
looking at the bigger picture
loving your self?
I don't know if that would cover it,
probably backfire somehow.
more like not blaming yourself so much...
various emotions would follow after that
seeing that there are many things more powerful then our will
forgiving, recognizing more of the unseen determination
even predestined, if one can realign that definition
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sirguessalot
yeah....regret, guilt, self-loathing, cynicism...even dealing with the anti-humanity attitude that comes with the onset of the spiritual desert/wilderness experience.
but like st paul seemed to say..."dont stop the singing, and dont forget how and why."
like how some psalms were written by someone who could not forgive God (or self, or others)
...to be sung by people who cannot not forgive God (or self, or others)
...or played for those who cannot forgive God (or self, or others)
some rock n roll works well, too
as with most all genres
a lot of music is like that,
but the psalms were written specifically to help identify and alleviate dis-ease of the soul.
...like a tuning fork to help us locate and extract the most hidden kinds of thorns.
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excathedra
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Kit Sober
From online Guideposts Magazine:
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hiway29
when I was in the way, it seemed like I was forever seeking forgiveness from others for something I didn't even know I had done.
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Kit Sober
The humility of seeking forgiveness when we don't know what the other person is holding against us I think is a mark of excellent spirit when the humility and lack of pride is real. I know that I have been humbled when a friend has come up to me "seeking forgiveness for something they didn't know what they did" and I felt that they cared more of our friendship than whatever was separating us. However, now I know now that so much of our twi life was judged not by the Holy Spirit but by the sham and show of things, and this could have been just a ruse to obtain my trust (which worked). Now I trust in the Lord more and I pray that those who walked with the Lord, He would show them what a blessing they really were and convict those who were using godly appearing methods to use and abuse others so they could find the true heart of kindness of the Lord.
I received this from Francis Frangipane Ministry this week and it went to my heart because in the area of weeding my own garden I have always tried to be sure to keep bitterness from taking root. I thought someone else here would like it also perhaps:
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Kit Sober
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Kit Sober
Received an email today with the lesson of the Honey Bee as a comparison to anger and how anger destroys the Honey Bee.
The honey bee (or any bee I think) in his wrath sticks his stinger into a person who will get a little bump in most cases (yes there are some who are so allergic to the sting of a bee or wasp he or she could die, but this is rare. We had lots of bees around when I was growing up and bee stings were usual and customary occurrences.)
The bee's sting is always fatal to the bee.
And this analogy can be carried to unforgiveness, in my opinion.
Our wrath may sting our victim more or less depending upon the sensitivity of our target, but unforgiveness is always fatal to the one holding the grudge. That root of bitterness grows within and destroys the fruits of the kindness of God, and the promise of God's Word in II Corinthians 2 documents that lack of forgiveness is the primary way satan gets advantage of us.
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TrustAndObey
I like that Kit..
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excathedra
does unforgiveness equal bitterness?
it's nice to see all the lovely people / posters on here
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Kit Sober
Excathedra. I don't know what is the relationship of bitterness to unforgiveness. From what I could see in the Bible, bitterness can come upon us (like it did with Naomi). But Naomi appeared to go with the flow of God's kind deliverance and although she told her family and friends when returning home from Moab that she should be called "bitter," there is no indication that her name was changed to "bitter." And Naomi was the one who knew that Boaz was a good man and would do right by Ruth.
I wonder if Naomi knew she was performing as a prophet -- guiding Ruth in the way to go so that the Christ line would not be lost. (Something else to find out about once I get to heaven, if I haven't found out before then.)
So it now appears to me (and this may change because it's an "opinion" formed from reading between the lines that I know) that unforgiveness is something we must consciously and continuously work at and that bitterness appears to be like a "disease" which comes upon us and which the Lord can heal when we trust Him.
From Francis Frangipane regarding how forgiveness helps us not get deceived in our "discernment"
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PatAnswer
Concerning forgiveness and the "root of bitterness":
I heard this often while in TWI. Many warnings against living in the past. Just get over it. Why am I so bitter?
Invariably they would pull the "root of bitterness" card on me and quote Hebrews 12:15.
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;
Certainly I don't want to be like the children of Israel in the wilderness, bitter and whining. Many of them were defiled because of this. I don't want to be defiled do I? Don't be so bitter.
Sounds legit doesn't it? Well, after hearing this so often I finally thought I'd try to find out what this root of bitterness is.
Hebrews 12:15 is a direct reference to a verse in the OT, namely Deuteronomy 29:18.It seemed to me that the whole 29th chapter of Deuteronomy is a warning against idolatry. I'm not going get into a lot of it here, take a look yourself and see what you think. But this from Jamieson, Fausset and Brown on Hebrews 12:15;
"root of bitterness--not merely a "bitter root," which might possibly bring forth sweet fruits; this, a root whose essence is "bitterness," never could. Paul here refers to Deuteronomy 29:18, "Lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood" (compare Acts 8:23). Root of bitterness comprehends every person (compare Hebrews 12:16) and every principle of doctrine or practice so radically corrupt as to spread corruption all around. The only safety is in rooting out such a root of bitterness."
So in the end I took TWI's advice, I looked diligently lest a root of bitterness springing up troubled me: I rooted TWI and their radically corrupt principles of doctrine and practice right out of my life!
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