One of the reasons (among many) that I thought it was important to document the plagiarism is because when vp presented as his own the works of others, we were not able to read things in their original, when the holy spirit was in power and in truth. Plagiarized works have not the life that the original had.
I was especially struck with this when Pawtucket's request for documentation encouraged me to search through dusty stuff and I got to rereading JE Stiles' "The Gift of the Holy Spirit" which is full of the tender longing of the Holy Spirit to see all see all people completely saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. How pitiful it is that we gained so much arrogant head knowledge without the heart of compassion and yearning for a true "closer walk with Thee." (JE Stiles' "The Gift of the Holy Spirit" is on amazon.com for less than $10.)
Another example is Oral Roberts' "Christ in Every Book of the Bible" originally published in 1965 with subsequent printings and copyrights. When vp did his version he didn't say, "Hey Oral Roberts did this also, here is my version, and you can do one too. Jesus Christ is limitless, and each of us see a different "face" of Him because He is so fathomless."
No. Instead vp acted like his version was the only one and any other person's version was a counterfeit of his genuine article (which of course is class a crxp).
Jesus Christ is our all in all and searching out the revealing of Him in the pages we read should be a most precious treasure.
TC Horton, in 1925 did this book of "The Wonderful Names of Our Wonderful Lord, Three Hundred and Sixty-Five Names and Titles of the Lord Jesus Christ as Found in the Old and New Testament" Moody Press adapted it and copyrighted their version in 1994, and Barbour Press printed the original and recopyrighted it in 2005. And you can buy it for $.01 plus $3.99 shipping on Amazon.com. It's pretty cool.
The works of researching His presence in our lives should be ongoing for each of us who desires that closer walk with Him and such work should be encouraged and not prevented by teachers. It would be a foolish math teacher who tried to limit his students' math knowledge to the scope of his class, and so a Bible teacher should always be mindful that students need to be kicked out of their little "nest" (and not chained to it).
I know that BG Leonard has passed away, but some ex-twi people have taken his class. here's a link to another Greasespot thread that discussed GB Leonard's class.
I can't find it now, but someone quoted from one of Leonard's books that sure
sounded as if Leonard clearly believed Jesus did not pre-exist before his birth.
And was scornful of the concept.
That would certainly fit with Wierwille's teaching of John 1:1 in PFAL. And, since we know that the source for much of what VPW taught in PFAL was BG Leonard, it only makes sense to deduce that Leonard's beliefs were along these lines, also.
I just have a question....Was BJ Leonard a trinitarian?
No. He wasn't a oneness pentecostal either from what I can tell. There is a statement of faith on the Christian Training site and it is vague. . . . but, if it is the same BG Leonard than no he was not a trinitarian.. :)
When vp insulted these men who spoke for God, he was working to ensure that we would not hear "the originals." Truly, when he said "you should hear it in the original" he was telling the truth. Hearing Billy Graham was so comforting and inspiring because when he spoke he spoke from a trustworthy heart of integrity.
Jesus Christ – In Ephesians He is not only the believer's heavenly standing.
Earlier I noted that in my opinion vp's gross error of his rendition of "the Red Thread" of Jesus Christ was in that he tried to make it look like his version was the only true one, which is what cult leaders do. And it's not "You tell me what you think about Jesus Christ, and I'll tell you how far you're going to go spiritually." No one is accountable to vp or to anyone else. It's a matter personally between you and the Lord, but if you want to share your views, I'd love to read them.
Jesus Christ is so unlimited that He shows to each of us His face differently, and also throughout the Bible He is revealed to each of us a little differently according to how our snowflake brains are built. There have been many versions of this, and each of us could give man versions of our own because His face is so lovely and so everywhere. Sometime before 1925, TC Horton did "The wonderful names of my Wonderful Lord" 365 of them. This was republished and adapted and copyrighted in 1925 by Charles E Hurlburt and TC Horton. It's an unlimited subject matter.
Writing your own "Jesus Christ through the Bible is an astounding and humbling exercise.
Here is Oral Roberts' 1965, third printing 1977, compared to vp's. I am sure that if you check out other versions of this topic found on a simple Google search you will find vp's other "helps" if indeed he followed true to form and lived off the work of other people who truly walked in relationship with the Holy Spirit. Additionally, Oral Roberts' work includes a few paragraphs or a few pages for each Book of the Bible, showing how and why he offers his view of the Lord. I ran out of steam in putting vp's.
This was a liberating exercise for me because "The Red Thread" was a last vestige of my "way brain" arrogance.
Jesus Christ throughout the Bible: Oral Roberts compared to vp.
Oral Roberts, 1965 reprint 1977
Vp, a 1982(?)
In Genesis
OR: He is the seed of the woman
vp: Add "promised"
In Exodus
OR: He is the Passover Lamb
vp: Same
In Leviticus
OR: He is Our High Priest
vp: Changed "Our" to "the"
In Numbers
OR: He is the Pillar of Cloud by Day and the Pillar of Fire by Night
vp: He is the Star to Rise out of Jacob
In Deuteronomy
OR: He is the Prophet like unto Moses
vp: He is the two laws love God and love your neighbor
In Joshua
OR: He is the Captain of our Salvation
vp: "our Salvation" changed to "Lord of Hosts"
In Judges
OR: He is our Judge and Lawgiver
vp: He is the Covenant Angel named Wonderful
In Ruth
OR: He is our Kinsman-Redeemer
vp: "our" changed to "the"
In I & II Samual
OR: He is our Trusted Prophet
vp: He is the Root and Offspring of David
In Kings and Chronicles
OR: He is our Reigning King
In Kings
vp: He is the Greater than the Temple
In Chronicles
vp: He is the King's Son
In Ezra
OR: He is our Faithful Scribe
In Nehemiah
OR: He is the Rebuilder of broken walls of our shattered lives
In Ezra Nehemiah
vp: He is the Rebuilder
In Esther
OR: He is our Mordecai
vp: He is the Savior of God's people
In Job
OR: He is our ever-living Redeemer
vp: He is the Daysman
In Psalms
OR: He is the Lord our Shepherd
vp: He is the Song
In Proverbs and Ecclesiastes
OR: He is our Wisdom
In Proverbs
vp: He is the Wisdom of God
In Jeremiah and Lamentations
OR He is the Weeping Prophet
In Jeremiah
vp: He is Our Righteousness
In Lamentations
vp: He is the unbeliever's Judgment
In Ezekiel
OR: He is the Wonderful Four-Faced Man
vp: He is the True Shepherd
In Daniel
OR: He is the Fourth Man in the Fiery Furnace
vp: He is the Stone that became the Head of the Corner
In Hosea
OR: He is the Eternal Husband forever married to the Backslider.
In Joel
OR: He is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit.
In Amos
OR: He is our Burden Bearer
vp: He is the Raiser of David's Tabernacle
In Obadiah
OR: He is our Savior
vp: He is the Deliverer on Mt Zion
In Jonah
OR: He is the Great Foreign Missionary
vp: He is our Salvation
In Micah
OR: He is the Messenger with Beautiful Feet
vp: He is the Lord of Kings
In Nahum
OR: He is our Avenger
vp: He is the Stronghold in times of trouble.
----------------------------------
Only Oral Roberts, except for Revelations, below.
In Habakkuk He is the Evangelist pleading for a Revival
In Zephaniah He is the Lord Mighty to Save
In Haggai He is the Restorer of the Lost Heritage
In Zechariah He is the fountain opened to the House of David for sin and uncleanness
In Malachi He is the Sun of Righteousness rising with healing in His Wings
In Matthew He is the Messiah
In Mark He is the Wonder-Worker
In Luke He is the Son of Man
In John He is the Son of God
In Acts He is the Holy Spirit moving and working among men
In Romans He is the Justifer
In I and II Corinthians He is the Sanctifier
In Galatians He is the Redeemer from the curse of the Law
In Ephesians He is the Christ of Unsearchable Riches
In Philippians He is the God Who supplieth all our need
In Colossians He is the fullness of the Godhead Bodily
In I and II Thessalonians Our soon coming King
In I and II Timothy He is the Mediator between God and Man
In Titus He is the Faithful Pastor
In Philemon He is the Friend of the Oppressed
In Hebrews He is the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant
In James He is the Lord Who raiseth the sick
In I and II Peter He is the Chief Shepherd Who soon shall appear
In I, II, and III John He is Love
In Jude He is the Lord coming with Ten Thousands of His Saints
-------------------------------------
In Revelations
OR: He is our King of Kings and Lord of Lords
vp: Changed "our" to "the"
-------------------------
Oral Roberts' book, following all this, then has, "Jesus Christ is. . .Abel's Sacrifice, Noah's Rainbow, Abraham's Lamb, Isaac's Well, Jacob's Ladder, Ezekiel's Burden, Judah's Scepter, Moses' Rod, David's Slingshot, Hezekiah's Sundial. Jesus Christ is a Husband to the Widow, a Father to the Orphan. To those traveling in the dark night, He is the Bright and Morning Star. To those in the lonesome valley, He is the Lily of the Valley, the Rose of Sharon, Honey in the Rock, and the Staff of Life. . . "
There is much more in Oral Roberts' book, but you can get the drift. Oral Roberts' work flowed from his relationship with the Holy Spirit and is filled with yearning to see others know the Lord and His redeeming kindness.
I put this in a Table but table formatting got lost.
you made me recall vp's definition of an apostle in PFAL, something along the lines of ...."an apostle - one who sheds new light - it may be old light but it's new to the generation he speaks"....
...now by using my TWI-light Secret Decoder Ring to decipher that it yields the following translation, which in my opinion puts a relevant twist on your phrase: "heavy plagia-ruse"
you made me recall vp's definition of an apostle in PFAL, something along the lines of ...."an apostle - one who sheds new light - it may be old light but it's new to the generation he speaks"....
...now by using my TWI-light Secret Decoder Ring to decipher that it yields the following translation, which in my opinion puts a relevant twist on your phrase: "heavy plagia-ruse"
Hmm...my ring just says, "Eat your familia and shut up."
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Kit Sober
One of the reasons (among many) that I thought it was important to document the plagiarism is because when vp presented as his own the works of others, we were not able to read things in their original, when the holy spirit was in power and in truth. Plagiarized works have not the life that the original had.
I was especially struck with this when Pawtucket's request for documentation encouraged me to search through dusty stuff and I got to rereading JE Stiles' "The Gift of the Holy Spirit" which is full of the tender longing of the Holy Spirit to see all see all people completely saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. How pitiful it is that we gained so much arrogant head knowledge without the heart of compassion and yearning for a true "closer walk with Thee." (JE Stiles' "The Gift of the Holy Spirit" is on amazon.com for less than $10.)
Another example is Oral Roberts' "Christ in Every Book of the Bible" originally published in 1965 with subsequent printings and copyrights. When vp did his version he didn't say, "Hey Oral Roberts did this also, here is my version, and you can do one too. Jesus Christ is limitless, and each of us see a different "face" of Him because He is so fathomless."
No. Instead vp acted like his version was the only one and any other person's version was a counterfeit of his genuine article (which of course is class a crxp).
Here's a version from a Methodist: http://powdersprings...ove%20Notes.pdf; and here is another one: http://livingwordnew...20Bible.doc.pdf. And here's from a Baptist guy: http://www.scionofzi..._every_book.htm. And another one: http://jesuslovessaj...k-of-bible.html. They are all so precious. (I'm polishing up my version as well :) )
Jesus Christ is our all in all and searching out the revealing of Him in the pages we read should be a most precious treasure.
TC Horton, in 1925 did this book of "The Wonderful Names of Our Wonderful Lord, Three Hundred and Sixty-Five Names and Titles of the Lord Jesus Christ as Found in the Old and New Testament" Moody Press adapted it and copyrighted their version in 1994, and Barbour Press printed the original and recopyrighted it in 2005. And you can buy it for $.01 plus $3.99 shipping on Amazon.com. It's pretty cool.
The works of researching His presence in our lives should be ongoing for each of us who desires that closer walk with Him and such work should be encouraged and not prevented by teachers. It would be a foolish math teacher who tried to limit his students' math knowledge to the scope of his class, and so a Bible teacher should always be mindful that students need to be kicked out of their little "nest" (and not chained to it).
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Kit, you double posted. Does that mean because you said it twice it is established?
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Kit Sober
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newlife
I just have a question....Was BJ Leonard a trinitarian?
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Kit Sober
Here is a link to BG Leonard's page links: http://ctcoftexas.com/bgleonard.html,
I know that BG Leonard has passed away, but some ex-twi people have taken his class. here's a link to another Greasespot thread that discussed GB Leonard's class.
http://www.greasespo...y-spirit-class/
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WordWolf
Here's a few more links. We've discussed BG Leonard a lot over the years.
I can't find it now, but someone quoted from one of Leonard's books that sure
sounded as if Leonard clearly believed Jesus did not pre-exist before his birth.
And was scornful of the concept.
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waysider
That would certainly fit with Wierwille's teaching of John 1:1 in PFAL. And, since we know that the source for much of what VPW taught in PFAL was BG Leonard, it only makes sense to deduce that Leonard's beliefs were along these lines, also.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
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geisha779
No. He wasn't a oneness pentecostal either from what I can tell. There is a statement of faith on the Christian Training site and it is vague. . . . but, if it is the same BG Leonard than no he was not a trinitarian.. :)
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Dot Matrix
Kit I loved what you said:
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Kit Sober
Jesus Christ – In Ephesians He is not only the believer's heavenly standing.
Earlier I noted that in my opinion vp's gross error of his rendition of "the Red Thread" of Jesus Christ was in that he tried to make it look like his version was the only true one, which is what cult leaders do. And it's not "You tell me what you think about Jesus Christ, and I'll tell you how far you're going to go spiritually." No one is accountable to vp or to anyone else. It's a matter personally between you and the Lord, but if you want to share your views, I'd love to read them.
Jesus Christ is so unlimited that He shows to each of us His face differently, and also throughout the Bible He is revealed to each of us a little differently according to how our snowflake brains are built. There have been many versions of this, and each of us could give man versions of our own because His face is so lovely and so everywhere. Sometime before 1925, TC Horton did "The wonderful names of my Wonderful Lord" 365 of them. This was republished and adapted and copyrighted in 1925 by Charles E Hurlburt and TC Horton. It's an unlimited subject matter.
Writing your own "Jesus Christ through the Bible is an astounding and humbling exercise.
Here is Oral Roberts' 1965, third printing 1977, compared to vp's. I am sure that if you check out other versions of this topic found on a simple Google search you will find vp's other "helps" if indeed he followed true to form and lived off the work of other people who truly walked in relationship with the Holy Spirit. Additionally, Oral Roberts' work includes a few paragraphs or a few pages for each Book of the Bible, showing how and why he offers his view of the Lord. I ran out of steam in putting vp's.
This was a liberating exercise for me because "The Red Thread" was a last vestige of my "way brain" arrogance.
Jesus Christ throughout the Bible: Oral Roberts compared to vp.
Oral Roberts, 1965 reprint 1977
Vp, a 1982(?)
In Genesis
OR: He is the seed of the woman
vp: Add "promised"
In Exodus
OR: He is the Passover Lamb
vp: Same
In Leviticus
OR: He is Our High Priest
vp: Changed "Our" to "the"
In Numbers
OR: He is the Pillar of Cloud by Day and the Pillar of Fire by Night
vp: He is the Star to Rise out of Jacob
In Deuteronomy
OR: He is the Prophet like unto Moses
vp: He is the two laws love God and love your neighbor
In Joshua
OR: He is the Captain of our Salvation
vp: "our Salvation" changed to "Lord of Hosts"
In Judges
OR: He is our Judge and Lawgiver
vp: He is the Covenant Angel named Wonderful
In Ruth
OR: He is our Kinsman-Redeemer
vp: "our" changed to "the"
In I & II Samual
OR: He is our Trusted Prophet
vp: He is the Root and Offspring of David
In Kings and Chronicles
OR: He is our Reigning King
In Kings
vp: He is the Greater than the Temple
In Chronicles
vp: He is the King's Son
In Ezra
OR: He is our Faithful Scribe
In Nehemiah
OR: He is the Rebuilder of broken walls of our shattered lives
In Ezra Nehemiah
vp: He is the Rebuilder
In Esther
OR: He is our Mordecai
vp: He is the Savior of God's people
In Job
OR: He is our ever-living Redeemer
vp: He is the Daysman
In Psalms
OR: He is the Lord our Shepherd
vp: He is the Song
In Proverbs and Ecclesiastes
OR: He is our Wisdom
In Proverbs
vp: He is the Wisdom of God
In Jeremiah and Lamentations
OR He is the Weeping Prophet
In Jeremiah
vp: He is Our Righteousness
In Lamentations
vp: He is the unbeliever's Judgment
In Ezekiel
OR: He is the Wonderful Four-Faced Man
vp: He is the True Shepherd
In Daniel
OR: He is the Fourth Man in the Fiery Furnace
vp: He is the Stone that became the Head of the Corner
In Hosea
OR: He is the Eternal Husband forever married to the Backslider.
In Joel
OR: He is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit.
In Amos
OR: He is our Burden Bearer
vp: He is the Raiser of David's Tabernacle
In Obadiah
OR: He is our Savior
vp: He is the Deliverer on Mt Zion
In Jonah
OR: He is the Great Foreign Missionary
vp: He is our Salvation
In Micah
OR: He is the Messenger with Beautiful Feet
vp: He is the Lord of Kings
In Nahum
OR: He is our Avenger
vp: He is the Stronghold in times of trouble.
----------------------------------
Only Oral Roberts, except for Revelations, below.
In Habakkuk He is the Evangelist pleading for a Revival
In Zephaniah He is the Lord Mighty to Save
In Haggai He is the Restorer of the Lost Heritage
In Zechariah He is the fountain opened to the House of David for sin and uncleanness
In Malachi He is the Sun of Righteousness rising with healing in His Wings
In Matthew He is the Messiah
In Mark He is the Wonder-Worker
In Luke He is the Son of Man
In John He is the Son of God
In Acts He is the Holy Spirit moving and working among men
In Romans He is the Justifer
In I and II Corinthians He is the Sanctifier
In Galatians He is the Redeemer from the curse of the Law
In Ephesians He is the Christ of Unsearchable Riches
In Philippians He is the God Who supplieth all our need
In Colossians He is the fullness of the Godhead Bodily
In I and II Thessalonians Our soon coming King
In I and II Timothy He is the Mediator between God and Man
In Titus He is the Faithful Pastor
In Philemon He is the Friend of the Oppressed
In Hebrews He is the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant
In James He is the Lord Who raiseth the sick
In I and II Peter He is the Chief Shepherd Who soon shall appear
In I, II, and III John He is Love
In Jude He is the Lord coming with Ten Thousands of His Saints
-------------------------------------
In Revelations
OR: He is our King of Kings and Lord of Lords
vp: Changed "our" to "the"
-------------------------
Oral Roberts' book, following all this, then has, "Jesus Christ is. . .Abel's Sacrifice, Noah's Rainbow, Abraham's Lamb, Isaac's Well, Jacob's Ladder, Ezekiel's Burden, Judah's Scepter, Moses' Rod, David's Slingshot, Hezekiah's Sundial. Jesus Christ is a Husband to the Widow, a Father to the Orphan. To those traveling in the dark night, He is the Bright and Morning Star. To those in the lonesome valley, He is the Lily of the Valley, the Rose of Sharon, Honey in the Rock, and the Staff of Life. . . "
There is much more in Oral Roberts' book, but you can get the drift. Oral Roberts' work flowed from his relationship with the Holy Spirit and is filled with yearning to see others know the Lord and His redeeming kindness.
I put this in a Table but table formatting got lost.
Edited by Kit SoberLink to comment
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T-Bone
i wonder if vp ever thought about an alternate career......being an echo in a cave.
i wonder if vp ever thought about an alternate career......being an echo in a cave.
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So_crates
Oh, wow, heavy deja vu.
SoCrates
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T-Bone
you made me recall vp's definition of an apostle in PFAL, something along the lines of ...."an apostle - one who sheds new light - it may be old light but it's new to the generation he speaks"....
...now by using my TWI-light Secret Decoder Ring to decipher that it yields the following translation, which in my opinion puts a relevant twist on your phrase: "heavy plagia-ruse"
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Broken Arrow
Hmm...my ring just says, "Eat your familia and shut up."
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So_crates
That sounds familia.
SoCrates
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T-Bone
silly, you've got your decoder ring set in the Advanced Class Mode - that's familia spirit !
got it?!?!
it's "eat your familia spirit and shut the trap door" for cryin' out loud
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Broken Arrow
Ohhhh! Sorry.
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