It's a paramutation of ethnocentricity. To some degree, it's necessary for the health and survival of a group. Allowed to grow uncontrolled, though, it can lead to undesirable results.
It's a paramutation of ethnocentricity. To some degree, it's necessary for the health and survival of a group. Allowed to grow uncontrolled, though, it can lead to undesirable results.
"In Precarious Life, Judith Butler discusses recognizing the Other in order to sustain the Self and the problems of not being able to identify the Other. Butler notes 'that identification always relies upon a difference that it seeks to overcome, and that its aim is accomplished only by reintroducing the difference it claims to have vanquished."
Everyone clawing for the spiritual/moral superiority.
Like.....the aim is to conquer the foe? Denegrate and demoralize the enemy. The ends justify the means. Control the messaging. Frame the issues.
In twi....control the message, but don't define the terms. Stand on "the word"....but most view "the word" from different perspectives. No matter. Just keep claiming the high ground.
You can't make this stuff up. Wierwille got his degree-mill doctorate at Pikes Peak Seminary.....not Dirt Trail Canyon. Doesn't matter that it was a house of-sorts. Name it and claim it. Fake it till you make it. Repeat it and complete it.
Teaching the operation of critical thinking skills is one of the primary objectives of higher education. Perhaps that's why some people, when they feel threatened with exposure, will resort to devaluing the importance of higher education.
Well, if you're going to construct a pyramid organization.....you don't want a plateau of Phd's roaming the halls. Higher education just needs to be reserved for the 'higher ups.'
Who here at GS identifies themselves with ONE GROUP anymore? Anyone?
While in twi, we were given our marching orders week after week. Heck, the corps were spoonfed *what to think* week after week....not just talking points, but THOUGHT POINTS.
Groups, groups.....everywhere.
Volunteer for this, volunteer for that....
Donate here, donate there....
Thank you for your support....
Free labels in the mail....
Can I count on you?
Never again, will I allow any one group have that much control over me.
Never again, will I allow any one group have that much control over me.
I hear that a lot on this website. Let's hope we don't get led into another tyrannical system. If I may, I would suggest that it's important to realize how we get pulled into such a damaging organization.
What started our descent into TWI? I think it's because all of us have a need for relationship by virtue of the fact we're human. That is not a bad thing, it's a normal thing. The need for relationship is so strong that we'll sometimes do goofy things to get it. The problem is not that we desire a full, deep, mutually satisfying relationship with someone else. The problem for some of us is that we failed to establish strong, healthy boundaries. Perhaps those boundaries were never modeled for us, or perhaps some of us were so hungry for relationship that we allowed our healthy boundaries to be breached.
Without healthy relating, and without relational boundaries, the only way to protect ourselves from being hurt again is to withdraw from any sort of relationshp. In doing so, we cut ourselves off from what brings us true satisfaction and a sense of belonging. That is because humans are wired for relationship. Cutting ourselves off from others is a broken, miserable existence. Yet, a lot of choose that over what we've been through. True, we may stay out of a toxic relationship, but we do so at the expense of any relationship at all.
I said all that to say I believe focusing on establishing healthier boundaries will serve us better.
The problem for some of us is that we failed to establish strong, healthy boundaries. Perhaps those boundaries were never modeled for us, or perhaps some of us were so hungry for relationship that we allowed our healthy boundaries to be breached.
And.....twi failed to teach and establish these boundaries/relationships.
I hear that a lot on this website. Let's hope we don't get led into another tyrannical system. If I may, I would suggest that it's important to realize how we get pulled into such a damaging organization.
Not just a tyrannical system or organization, but........AGENDAS.
In twi, I tend to think that most got involved for self-imposed motives. Whether it was learning basic truths to scripture, how to study the bible, or just curious why others were so passionate about that pfal class.....we got involved. And, with each class, each program.....our involvement turned to commitment, our commitment engendered service. In the end, we were serving twi.......not fellow-man, not communities, not God.
Read Psalms......"The Lord is MY light and MY salvation." The individual and his integrity reigns supreme. Not groups. Not US. Not Them. Verse after verse is deeply personal.
Read Proverbs...."My son, forget not my law..." The wisdom imparted to a son (or daughter) to walk uprightly before the Lord. Not some teachings given to a Twig. No groupthink.
Of course, martindale and co. had to dig back into the book of Joshua, or wherever, to promote their agenda of zion, of groups, of marching together. The twi agenda falls flat without lockstep loyalty. The twi agenda is the same as other "worldly" groups...... promote herd mentality, class warfare, political strife, religious superiority, etc.
Rulers of the darkness of this world control the purse-strings and the power. And, man-made religion is one of the worst in its deception.
Am I seeing this clearly.......or am I just deceived yet again?
I probably look at it a bit differently, I guess it just depends on who you are around and what the agenda is....for me, there are many great man made ministries born from a religious outlook, those that focus on issues which really adversely effect peoples lives. To Write Love on Her Arms....deals with teenage girls who are cutters. The guy who runs it is about the nicest guy around, he has genuine motives, the people involved make a difference, they recognize the problem...and raise awareness. World Vision has had an impact, Living Water digs wells....on it goes. VOM not only deals with the persecuted church, but they also give to other people....specifically giving to Muslims in need as well as Christians. Most churches support missions of some kind, with prayer, people, and money.
I don't know Skyrider, but, I think there are many good man made things. Oxfam, is a great relief organization and is partnered with the British Government... When there is a crisis, they are among the first there...along with the Red Cross.
People have agendas, maybe are called to certain things...to get things done. It takes money. It takes commitment, and it takes a vision. Doesn't it really depend on the agenda and heart behind it? I know since leaving TWI I have been involved in a few different things, but each one spoke to me and moved me. Organizing and moving ahead isn't a bad thing....but peoples motives can be.
It is nice that we can choose what and who we support. . . . IMO supporting people and groups is not the issue...being a part of something is not the issue....following your own conscience with healthy boundaries is.....and yes, we were in a nasty cult, but not all groups operate like TWI. Some are worthy of support and money to implement their agenda....some agendas are good.
I guess I look at the scriptures a bit differently too. I see God as sovereign...in control...and everything belonging to Him...and I see a world where we have freewill to choose what we serve.
There's a difference, though, Geisha. The groups you mentioned are engaged in doing a particular work and they ask for financial support to carry on their business. They don't come along with an entire agenda and demand you follow it in order to be an approved follower. No one's going to come around and get in your face about, for example, how you raise your children, etc.
You might be an exception, but I don't think most who give to World Vision, or Voice of the Martyrs even know who is in charge. They just support the work.
You might be an exception, but I don't think most who give to World Vision, or Voice of the Martyrs even know who is in charge. They just support the work.
And.....last October, when all those union groups rallied in Washington DC, it was amazing how many communist groups and anarchist groups were joined with the teachers unions and all.
And.....last October, when all those union groups rallied in Washington DC, it was amazing how many communist groups and anarchist groups were joined with the teachers unions and all.
Subversive agendas are everywhere.
I was going to say something like that, Skyrider.
It amazes me how many groups--social, political, or religious--demand lockstep loyalty of their followers.
Its not enough to believe in the purpose of the group and its intent, you have to believe every statement the leadership spews out.
Its not enough to believe the platform, you have to agree to every plank, too.
Maybe that's why there's getting to be so many lone wolfs (no club) out there.
There's a difference, though, Geisha. The groups you mentioned are engaged in doing a particular work and they ask for financial support to carry on their business. They don't come along with an entire agenda and demand you follow it in order to be an approved follower. No one's going to come around and get in your face about, for example, how you raise your children, etc.
You might be an exception, but I don't think most who give to World Vision, or Voice of the Martyrs even know who is in charge. They just support the work.
Okay, maybe I was confused. I read agenda and religion and probably misunderstood, but didn't TWI ask for money to move the word? Wasn't that their supposed agenda or mission? Didn't they claim to need money to carry on their business? They sure did. Isn't that what we at one time thought we were supporting?
I thought what you said about healthy boundaries was spot on...not missing out on being a part of something because of TWI. What you said about healthy relating was also really good.
What Skyrider said about relating as revealed in scripture really spoke to me as well, but two things can relate or coalesce, and be good.
My point is....that there are righteous agendas which we can support without giving up our individuality....without crossing personal boundaries....without selling our souls. Just because they are designed and implemented by people with an agenda does not make them bad. The motives and heart behind the agenda can make them good or bad.....but, bad is not a given. The people who run or are often involved in these causes are immersed in them, committed to them, sold out to them and identify with them as their work.
The difference between them and TWI is the heart and faith behind them. We are still free to embrace a group but also free to distinguish between motivations.
Not to mention we also reap the benefits of many individual or group agendas...Clara Barton had a vision and if you ever have a loved one in need of blood...her agenda may just be what saves them. Labor laws, child labor laws, safety regulations are born from an agenda....prison reform, or most any reform.....comes from a group with an agenda. That is just the way humans relate and work together. Common vision, common causes, change and effect on others.
That is all I was trying to point out. :) Hope that makes sense.
It amazes me how many groups--social, political, or religious--demand lockstep loyalty of their followers.
Its not enough to believe in the purpose of the group and its intent, you have to believe every statement the leadership spews out.
Its not enough to believe the platform, you have to agree to every plank, too.
Maybe that's why there's getting to be so many lone wolfs (no club) out there.
SoCrates
Some of these radical groups and movements were born in the 1960s....
Wierwille filmed pfal in 1967 and went to Haight-Ashbury to fan the flames of his pseudo-christian movement. Wierwille had an agenda....to reach the youth, the hippie-types, the "free-love" movement. Lots of cults were on the move.
Subversive groups/cults prey on the unstability of family and government.
Some of these radical groups and movements were born in the 1960s....
Wierwille filmed pfal in 1967 and went to Haight-Ashbury to fan the flames of his pseudo-christian movement. Wierwille had an agenda....to reach the youth, the hippie-types, the "free-love" movement. Lots of cults were on the move.
Subversive groups/cults prey on the unstability of family and government.
Most groups want lockstep loyalty. What most groups fail to see when they do that is that they lose their free thinkers, those people who can think outside the box. Eventually, the whole group becomes a one trick pony, falling into groupthink.
You can see that with TWI2 and TWI3, not an original idea among them. Just more of what Saint Vic or the Craigmiester did. Then they look at their dwindling parisoners and think we need new blood. So they apply their if a little is good, more is better, and too much is just right theory and create more of the same: PFAL, The Musical or a play, Death of An MOG.
You're a bit wrong in saying that TWI "didn't promote healthy boundaries."
It actively moved the boundaries. Where we might have had healthy boundaries instilled by loving parents and other familial relationships, TWI spent time breaking them down.
And a lot of that was sexual. Porno videos - doesn't matter what you do with your physical body - "spiritual" adultery - "it's just a part of the body".
This is the organization that taught that the following:
Deut 19:14 Thou shalt not remove thy neighbour's landmark, which they of old time have set in thine inheritance, which thou shalt inherit in the land that the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it.
---and---
Deut 27:17 Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour's landmark. And all the people shall say , Amen.
meant that anyone who shifted the boundaries of people's mind, their mental landmarks, was cursed. Specifically they referred to "deprogrammers" who tried to shift people away from the "truth" of TWI.
I remember LCM getting very hot under the collar about menstealers, deprogrammers, those who wanted to pull us away from TWI, and how they were cursed.
What a laugh! TWI were the very ones who were busy undermining and removing our mental and spiritual landmarks, our basic decent societal norms about neighbourly decency. And so, in acknowledging that, they draw the curse of Deut 27 upon themselves.
"You see, class, you've got to stand on that Word, even if know one believes it..... because......When it comes to the Word, you have no friends."......etc., etc., etc.
How many thousands of times, in how many different ways, was this same basic message hammered into our heads?
Defend the doctrine (as defined by Wierwille) and forsake your individuality for the survival of the group.
It's no wonder we still see people bulldozing their way around facebook and other sites, parroting PFAL phrases and trying to whip folks back into submission.
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Broken Arrow
I hear that a lot on this website. Let's hope we don't get led into another tyrannical system. If I may, I would suggest that it's important to realize how we get pulled into such a damaging organizat
Broken Arrow
Thank you Ms. Garden! I didn't mean to make you feel sad! :( How about, "In God We Trust, all others pay cash."?
waysider
It's a paramutation of ethnocentricity. To some degree, it's necessary for the health and survival of a group. Allowed to grow uncontrolled, though, it can lead to undesirable results.
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skyrider
"In Precarious Life, Judith Butler discusses recognizing the Other in order to sustain the Self and the problems of not being able to identify the Other. Butler notes 'that identification always relies upon a difference that it seeks to overcome, and that its aim is accomplished only by reintroducing the difference it claims to have vanquished."
Everyone clawing for the spiritual/moral superiority.
Like.....the aim is to conquer the foe? Denegrate and demoralize the enemy. The ends justify the means. Control the messaging. Frame the issues.
In twi....control the message, but don't define the terms. Stand on "the word"....but most view "the word" from different perspectives. No matter. Just keep claiming the high ground.
You can't make this stuff up. Wierwille got his degree-mill doctorate at Pikes Peak Seminary.....not Dirt Trail Canyon. Doesn't matter that it was a house of-sorts. Name it and claim it. Fake it till you make it. Repeat it and complete it.
Doesn't anyone apply critical thinking skills anyone?
Doesn't anyone research what they get involved with?
Doesn't anyone really know what time it is?
Life is war kinetic military action.
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waysider
Teaching the operation of critical thinking skills is one of the primary objectives of higher education. Perhaps that's why some people, when they feel threatened with exposure, will resort to devaluing the importance of higher education.
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skyrider
Well, if you're going to construct a pyramid organization.....you don't want a plateau of Phd's roaming the halls. Higher education just needs to be reserved for the 'higher ups.'
That way.....some are more equal than others.
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waysider
You can tell by the staircase that this must be a place of "higher" learning.
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skyrider
Are you sure wierwille took the staircase?
There is a side door on the lower level.
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waysider
I think he was more of a backdoor man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTAc62476f4
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skyrider
Backdoor....side door.....kick-down-the-damn-door man.
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waysider
Nah. Kicking in the door wasn't his style. He liked to slip in, unnoticed, while the menfolk were away at work.
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skyrider
Back to my original post....
Who here at GS identifies themselves with ONE GROUP anymore? Anyone?
While in twi, we were given our marching orders week after week. Heck, the corps were spoonfed *what to think* week after week....not just talking points, but THOUGHT POINTS.
Groups, groups.....everywhere.
Volunteer for this, volunteer for that....
Donate here, donate there....
Thank you for your support....
Free labels in the mail....
Can I count on you?
Never again, will I allow any one group have that much control over me.
.
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WordWolf
Identifying solely with one group like that is very convenient....
mostly for whoever is managing the group.
"It's good to be the king."
REAL leaders actually do things that BENEFIT OTHERS, not just BENEFIT THEMSELVES.
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Broken Arrow
I hear that a lot on this website. Let's hope we don't get led into another tyrannical system. If I may, I would suggest that it's important to realize how we get pulled into such a damaging organization.
What started our descent into TWI? I think it's because all of us have a need for relationship by virtue of the fact we're human. That is not a bad thing, it's a normal thing. The need for relationship is so strong that we'll sometimes do goofy things to get it. The problem is not that we desire a full, deep, mutually satisfying relationship with someone else. The problem for some of us is that we failed to establish strong, healthy boundaries. Perhaps those boundaries were never modeled for us, or perhaps some of us were so hungry for relationship that we allowed our healthy boundaries to be breached.
Without healthy relating, and without relational boundaries, the only way to protect ourselves from being hurt again is to withdraw from any sort of relationshp. In doing so, we cut ourselves off from what brings us true satisfaction and a sense of belonging. That is because humans are wired for relationship. Cutting ourselves off from others is a broken, miserable existence. Yet, a lot of choose that over what we've been through. True, we may stay out of a toxic relationship, but we do so at the expense of any relationship at all.
I said all that to say I believe focusing on establishing healthier boundaries will serve us better.
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skyrider
And.....twi failed to teach and establish these boundaries/relationships.
To name a few...
1) sending out WOWs.....2 men / 2 women
2) cfs class was more lust than respect
3) indiana campus and the adultery
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Broken Arrow
No argument from me on that. Still, healthy boundaries are something that can be had now.
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skyrider
Not just a tyrannical system or organization, but........AGENDAS.
In twi, I tend to think that most got involved for self-imposed motives. Whether it was learning basic truths to scripture, how to study the bible, or just curious why others were so passionate about that pfal class.....we got involved. And, with each class, each program.....our involvement turned to commitment, our commitment engendered service. In the end, we were serving twi.......not fellow-man, not communities, not God.
Read Psalms......"The Lord is MY light and MY salvation." The individual and his integrity reigns supreme. Not groups. Not US. Not Them. Verse after verse is deeply personal.
Read Proverbs...."My son, forget not my law..." The wisdom imparted to a son (or daughter) to walk uprightly before the Lord. Not some teachings given to a Twig. No groupthink.
Of course, martindale and co. had to dig back into the book of Joshua, or wherever, to promote their agenda of zion, of groups, of marching together. The twi agenda falls flat without lockstep loyalty. The twi agenda is the same as other "worldly" groups...... promote herd mentality, class warfare, political strife, religious superiority, etc.
Rulers of the darkness of this world control the purse-strings and the power. And, man-made religion is one of the worst in its deception.
Am I seeing this clearly.......or am I just deceived yet again?
:)
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geisha779
I probably look at it a bit differently, I guess it just depends on who you are around and what the agenda is....for me, there are many great man made ministries born from a religious outlook, those that focus on issues which really adversely effect peoples lives. To Write Love on Her Arms....deals with teenage girls who are cutters. The guy who runs it is about the nicest guy around, he has genuine motives, the people involved make a difference, they recognize the problem...and raise awareness. World Vision has had an impact, Living Water digs wells....on it goes. VOM not only deals with the persecuted church, but they also give to other people....specifically giving to Muslims in need as well as Christians. Most churches support missions of some kind, with prayer, people, and money.
I don't know Skyrider, but, I think there are many good man made things. Oxfam, is a great relief organization and is partnered with the British Government... When there is a crisis, they are among the first there...along with the Red Cross.
People have agendas, maybe are called to certain things...to get things done. It takes money. It takes commitment, and it takes a vision. Doesn't it really depend on the agenda and heart behind it? I know since leaving TWI I have been involved in a few different things, but each one spoke to me and moved me. Organizing and moving ahead isn't a bad thing....but peoples motives can be.
It is nice that we can choose what and who we support. . . . IMO supporting people and groups is not the issue...being a part of something is not the issue....following your own conscience with healthy boundaries is.....and yes, we were in a nasty cult, but not all groups operate like TWI. Some are worthy of support and money to implement their agenda....some agendas are good.
I guess I look at the scriptures a bit differently too. I see God as sovereign...in control...and everything belonging to Him...and I see a world where we have freewill to choose what we serve.
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Broken Arrow
There's a difference, though, Geisha. The groups you mentioned are engaged in doing a particular work and they ask for financial support to carry on their business. They don't come along with an entire agenda and demand you follow it in order to be an approved follower. No one's going to come around and get in your face about, for example, how you raise your children, etc.
You might be an exception, but I don't think most who give to World Vision, or Voice of the Martyrs even know who is in charge. They just support the work.
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skyrider
And.....last October, when all those union groups rallied in Washington DC, it was amazing how many communist groups and anarchist groups were joined with the teachers unions and all.
Subversive agendas are everywhere.
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So_crates
I was going to say something like that, Skyrider.
It amazes me how many groups--social, political, or religious--demand lockstep loyalty of their followers.
Its not enough to believe in the purpose of the group and its intent, you have to believe every statement the leadership spews out.
Its not enough to believe the platform, you have to agree to every plank, too.
Maybe that's why there's getting to be so many lone wolfs (no club) out there.
SoCrates
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geisha779
Okay, maybe I was confused. I read agenda and religion and probably misunderstood, but didn't TWI ask for money to move the word? Wasn't that their supposed agenda or mission? Didn't they claim to need money to carry on their business? They sure did. Isn't that what we at one time thought we were supporting?
I thought what you said about healthy boundaries was spot on...not missing out on being a part of something because of TWI. What you said about healthy relating was also really good.
What Skyrider said about relating as revealed in scripture really spoke to me as well, but two things can relate or coalesce, and be good.
My point is....that there are righteous agendas which we can support without giving up our individuality....without crossing personal boundaries....without selling our souls. Just because they are designed and implemented by people with an agenda does not make them bad. The motives and heart behind the agenda can make them good or bad.....but, bad is not a given. The people who run or are often involved in these causes are immersed in them, committed to them, sold out to them and identify with them as their work.
The difference between them and TWI is the heart and faith behind them. We are still free to embrace a group but also free to distinguish between motivations.
Not to mention we also reap the benefits of many individual or group agendas...Clara Barton had a vision and if you ever have a loved one in need of blood...her agenda may just be what saves them. Labor laws, child labor laws, safety regulations are born from an agenda....prison reform, or most any reform.....comes from a group with an agenda. That is just the way humans relate and work together. Common vision, common causes, change and effect on others.
That is all I was trying to point out. :) Hope that makes sense.
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skyrider
Some of these radical groups and movements were born in the 1960s....
Wierwille filmed pfal in 1967 and went to Haight-Ashbury to fan the flames of his pseudo-christian movement. Wierwille had an agenda....to reach the youth, the hippie-types, the "free-love" movement. Lots of cults were on the move.
Subversive groups/cults prey on the unstability of family and government.
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So_crates
Most groups want lockstep loyalty. What most groups fail to see when they do that is that they lose their free thinkers, those people who can think outside the box. Eventually, the whole group becomes a one trick pony, falling into groupthink.
You can see that with TWI2 and TWI3, not an original idea among them. Just more of what Saint Vic or the Craigmiester did. Then they look at their dwindling parisoners and think we need new blood. So they apply their if a little is good, more is better, and too much is just right theory and create more of the same: PFAL, The Musical or a play, Death of An MOG.
And even more leave their ranks...
SoCrates
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Twinky
You're a bit wrong in saying that TWI "didn't promote healthy boundaries."
It actively moved the boundaries. Where we might have had healthy boundaries instilled by loving parents and other familial relationships, TWI spent time breaking them down.
And a lot of that was sexual. Porno videos - doesn't matter what you do with your physical body - "spiritual" adultery - "it's just a part of the body".
This is the organization that taught that the following:
Deut 19:14 Thou shalt not remove thy neighbour's landmark, which they of old time have set in thine inheritance, which thou shalt inherit in the land that the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it.
---and---
Deut 27:17 Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour's landmark. And all the people shall say , Amen.
meant that anyone who shifted the boundaries of people's mind, their mental landmarks, was cursed. Specifically they referred to "deprogrammers" who tried to shift people away from the "truth" of TWI.
I remember LCM getting very hot under the collar about menstealers, deprogrammers, those who wanted to pull us away from TWI, and how they were cursed.
What a laugh! TWI were the very ones who were busy undermining and removing our mental and spiritual landmarks, our basic decent societal norms about neighbourly decency. And so, in acknowledging that, they draw the curse of Deut 27 upon themselves.
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waysider
"You see, class, you've got to stand on that Word, even if know one believes it..... because......When it comes to the Word, you have no friends."......etc., etc., etc.
How many thousands of times, in how many different ways, was this same basic message hammered into our heads?
Defend the doctrine (as defined by Wierwille) and forsake your individuality for the survival of the group.
It's no wonder we still see people bulldozing their way around facebook and other sites, parroting PFAL phrases and trying to whip folks back into submission.
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