Who here at GS identifies themselves with ONE GROUP anymore? Anyone?
...
Never again, will I allow any one group have that much control over me.
I think one of the positives about the information age is that global boundaries are removed. I read of people who want to serve volunteering to go over to Japan and contribute in areas of expertise - medical care, etc.
No longer is it the case where someone can isolate you from the world's information and perspective.
While a commitment to an individual group who has local impact is a good thing, it also is a good thing to have a broader perspective.
Okay, maybe I was confused. I read agenda and religion and probably misunderstood, but didn't TWI ask for money to move the word? Wasn't that their supposed agenda or mission? Didn't they claim to need money to carry on their business? They sure did. Isn't that what we at one time thought we were supporting?
I thought what you said about healthy boundaries was spot on...not missing out on being a part of something because of TWI. What you said about healthy relating was also really good.
What Skyrider said about relating as revealed in scripture really spoke to me as well, but two things can relate or coalesce, and be good.
My point is....that there are righteous agendas which we can support without giving up our individuality....without crossing personal boundaries....without selling our souls. Just because they are designed and implemented by people with an agenda does not make them bad. The motives and heart behind the agenda can make them good or bad.....but, bad is not a given. The people who run or are often involved in these causes are immersed in them, committed to them, sold out to them and identify with them as their work.
The difference between them and TWI is the heart and faith behind them. We are still free to embrace a group but also free to distinguish between motivations.
Not to mention we also reap the benefits of many individual or group agendas...Clara Barton had a vision and if you ever have a loved one in need of blood...her agenda may just be what saves them. Labor laws, child labor laws, safety regulations are born from an agenda....prison reform, or most any reform.....comes from a group with an agenda. That is just the way humans relate and work together. Common vision, common causes, change and effect on others.
That is all I was trying to point out. :) Hope that makes sense.
Actually, I think I'm the one that misunderstood :) . I think I understand what Skyrider is saying and I think he's right. Here's an axiom I believe: Any organization that is overseen by men becomes abusive. This is regardless of how well intended the group may be. The question isn't whether a group is abusive. The question is how bad is it. (That is not a quote but I got the original idea from a man named Ken Blue in is book, Spiritual Abuse).
Case in point: A few years ago we had a major scandal within a charitable organization called The United Way. One of the officers was embezzeling. We had a similar situation happen within the local chapter of the American Cancer Society. You can't get any more well intentioned than that. Yet, trusted people became crooked. So I agree with Skyrider, one should not put their unfailing blind trust in any organization.
The truth is we need each other. The truth also is none of us can be trusted. So what's the answer? I have a couple of ideas. First of all, how open is the organization to dissenting opinions? How is the organization run? Is it run by just one person? To whom, if anyone, do they hold themselves accountable? What are my boundaries? How much will I put up with? If my standard is perfection then I'm going to have a difficult road to hoe. I do not agree with those who say that once we have given our money to an organization, then it's none of our business how they spend it. That organization has an obligation to disclose their inner workings. Personally, I would avoid any organization that purports their leadership is beyond reproach.
Some churches, if there is sexual impropriety on the part of one of their leaders will cover it up. Other churches will make their congregations aware.
So, maybe some think they'll handle this by avoiding participation in any group at all. An understandable yet impossible way to live. Do you have a job? Is it with an organization? I've been hard put to find any company that is completely honest. Are you self employed? Do you have human beings as clients?
One should not be fearful of being involved in an organization as long as that person remains informed and realizes human weakness...to a point. Perhaps that what Jesus was saying when he said to be "wise as serpents yet harmless as doves."
I talk a good talk here but this is a tough area for me. I learned unquestioning obedience at the feet of TWI. That translates well in the workplace, too well. Many employers gladly hire doormats and treat them accordingly and that's what I've been for so long. I just can't play that role anymore and I'm afraid I've swung too much the other direction. I've just seen so much abuse and can smell it a mile away. I find myself unemployed right now because of my mouth, but hey, I still have my principals! (I'm being sarcastic)
I get angry at such little things like company officers having their own special parking places. As if their time is more important that everyone else's. I get angry when I sense high ranking officials desire that I get nervous when they come in and that I "snap to!" Or act like I'm such an impingement on their time when I have a question or whatever. I've got to figure out a way to get past this because it seems every organization wants their pecking order and get angry when it's not adhered to. While God may see us all equally, employers don't. I hate that.
An of course, sexual abuse can be rampant at the workplace. I hear a lot of stories of women having their jobs threatened if they did not comply with the "wishes" of their superior. Kind of a hard place to be in if one is a single mom. Uggh! The egotism of some people! These same people who are used to receiving worship come into my workplace and expect cow-towing from me and I don't play.
Anyway, I needed to get that off my chest. Sorry for the derail.
I do know how you feel, BA. A few years back, we went through a situation with a church plant where the pastor, who seemed to be a stand-up guy, raped a 15 year old girl on the floor of his office. After a couple of days, she managed to gather herself together and go to the cops, he was arrested and plea bargained his way out of rape charges. It was all over the local papers. He got eight years; I though Galatians 5:12 would be more appropriate.
Apparently, the association of churches to which this pastor belonged sent a letter to the other pastors in the association stating that "we must do everything we can to help and support our brother during this difficult time."
Support him? What about the 15-year-old girl? She was a kid, he was 45 with a wife and two children, and a pastor for Pete's sake. I don't care if she pranced into his office naked as a jay-bird, threw herself down on his desk and said "please!" He just should have run like the very devil was on his heels.
This letter was mentioned on-line in a series of comments on the article in the local newspaper. I was outraged! I will never support a church of that particular denomination again. I don't know who got a hold of that letter and published parts of it, but they sure did me a favor.
There's nothing new under the sun, and man continues to devise evil. It's hard not to take the evil personally, but I think it's more the human nature to try to have one up on the other fella.
Actually, I think I'm the one that misunderstood :) . I think I understand what Skyrider is saying and I think he's right. Here's an axiom I believe: Any organization that is overseen by men becomes abusive. This is regardless of how well intended the group may be. The question isn't whether a group is abusive. The question is how bad is it. (That is not a quote but I got the original idea from a man named Ken Blue in is book, Spiritual Abuse).
So is God dead then? He must be if He has not raised up any good and honest people to work through. No one is committed to Him? True faith is dead?
Maybe I don't understand the point. It could be, because it is hard to fathom such a drastic conclusion based on a few experiences. People are people. Maybe I am a Pollyanna, but, it has not been my experience since leaving TWI that people are inherently evil and abusive. Why the heck, would people bother to commit their entire lives to alleviating the suffering of others, just to become abusive to those helping them with their vision? You are saying this is inevitable?
It all seems so cynical . . . . I think I must be missing the point. Seriously. I am not kidding...I don't get it. I don't think my mind works this way. I see so much good in people working together. I am dealing with Hospice right now...and it is an amazing experience. I am so thankful for them!
It all seems so cynical . . . . I think I must be missing the point. Seriously.
Well...I didn't start this thread to be cynical of ALL organizations.
It just seems that *most* people have lost all sense of critical thinking skills and/or their moral compass. When or where is the tipping point.....when people finally say, "I've had enough of the double standard hypocrisy and ain't gonna take it anymore."
In religion.......most of us have seen our share of abuse in twi. Okay, we're exposing it, but there are still some who left twi decades ago....yet, still praise wierwille. How can some vpw-defenders be so blind? Same with the Catholic Church.....all the abuse, the pedophile priests. Other church pastors who've strayed and abused.
In charitable groups.....we hear more and more that most of the money goes toward administrative fees and not to the people. In Haiti....about one million of those people are still in tents.
In public unions....the collective bargaining issue has come front and center. Teachers are standing shoulder to shoulder with communist and anarchist groups for THEIR excessive pension plans and healthcare benefits. All of this is unsustainable and the private sector is awakening. The UK unions are destroying property. The elitist attitude is astounding.
Just seems like groups and unions are pushing buttons.
Just seems like everything is spiraling out of control.
Well, I get that. But, see....something good came out of TWI...we are more aware. :) Yes, there is corruption everywhere...I agree...even in churches, but there is also good. People helping people with no agenda other than that. It is out there. I promise you.
You and I can still make a difference with our lives, even if it is knowing the difference between right and wrong and speaking to it.
Not such a bad a way to be. We still have something to offer! Our shared experience makes us somewhat unique...and God can turn it to good!
In public unions....the collective bargaining issue has come front and center. Teachers are standing shoulder to shoulder with communist and anarchist groups for THEIR excessive pension plans and healthcare benefits. All of this is unsustainable and the private sector is awakening. The UK unions are destroying property. The elitist attitude is astounding.
You forgot SEIU's Steve Lerner: a union organizer, who claims to be for the working class, coming up with a plan to crash the stock market with morgage strikes the first week of May, wiping out people's 401ks, pensions, and retirement account--all those benefits he says he's protecting. Not to mention making banks insolvent which would wipe out people's savings. And what would happen to all those jobs he claimed for so many years he was trying to protect.
So is God dead then? He must be if He has not raised up any good and honest people to work through. No one is committed to Him? True faith is dead?
Maybe I don't understand the point. It could be, because it is hard to fathom such a drastic conclusion based on a few experiences. People are people. Maybe I am a Pollyanna, but, it has not been my experience since leaving TWI that people are inherently evil and abusive. Why the heck, would people bother to commit their entire lives to alleviating the suffering of others, just to become abusive to those helping them with their vision? You are saying this is inevitable?
It all seems so cynical . . . . I think I must be missing the point. Seriously. I am not kidding...I don't get it. I don't think my mind works this way. I see so much good in people working together. I am dealing with Hospice right now...and it is an amazing experience. I am so thankful for them!
Maybe you're a "Pollyanna", maybe I'm a cynic, or a "Puddleglum" as my wife sometimes calls me.
Yes. I believe if left unchecked, people will abuse others intentionally, or unintentionally. Someone said, "The best of men are men at best". Then, of course, there's the familiar saying, "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Even people, in my opinion, who commit their entire lives to alleviating the suffering of others can fall prey to this. All they have to do is set up an organization and have at least one other person involved. Soon there will be disagreement on how things should operate and there we go. We humanoids are full of both evil as well as righteous desires.
Perhaps I should define abuse. I'm not necessarily talking about sexual molestation or stealing. . I am talking about when someone uses someone else for their own selfish benefit. It might be as simple as letting someone work themselves silly on our behalf to make us look good and deep inside we know they need a break. Does this mean there are no good organizations out there? No, I don't believe that. I'm not writing this to be depressing or hopeless. I think it's freeing to realize that every single one of us has an achilles heal. With that knowledge, we can have understanding and maybe even show mercy to someone who stumbles. With this knowledge perhaps we can help each other from getting in over our own heads and becoming corrupt. This knowledge keeps us honest with ourselves as well. We know we can be deceived, so we're not insecure when confronted. Yes, there's a "little Hitler" that lives in each one of us. I think a healthy organization knows this and should establish safeguards.
I've seen where organizations resist such transparency and come back with something like, "Don't you trust us? Do you really think I would...." No. I don't trust anyone with a completely free reign. Man in his current state cannot handle unbridled authority.
As for an organization that refuses to examine itself, and who refuses to let others examine them, avoid it because they are lying. People who won't share things because others "can't handle it", are hiding something, guarantee it.
I've seen where organizations resist such transparency and come back with something like, "Don't you trust us? Do you really think I would...." No. I don't trust anyone with a completely free reign. Man in his current state cannot handle unbridled authority.
Never trust anyone who has to ask whether or not you trust them. Under normal circumstances, trust is a given, it doesn't have to be rality checked.
I have two pat answers for that question:
1. I trust, but I also verify
2. Sure, I trust you. But, I don't trust the devil inside you.
To me....this sounds like a bit of an extreme perspective, but then again, I am blond and seriously may be missing something I could very well agree with. You sound a bit like my hubby, so maybe there is something to this Pollyanna/Cynic match.
It is a good thing that there is something which keeps some people in check or is there no such thing?
I will tell you a secret BA...I know when certain people are using me and sometimes, I just look past that and let them. If I can offer some kind of help and support...I don't look for the evil motive....I often just do it. It happened to me today. Sometimes people just don't know how to ask for help, but that doesn't make them abusive. Sometimes people are struggling with issues and can't reach out.
I also know that people can have expectations of me, without me looking at it as abusive. I would hope that there are expectations of me.
People are people, but that is everyone... including you and me. Do you really believe you are abusive or can become abusive by your definition? If you are aware of it....why can't you check it? Is it worth it to use someone? No, of course not.
Remember, some people give their lives for others...complete strangers donate marrow and blood....give their organs in death to give others life. We are made in God's image....and God can be pretty good.
I get what Skyrider is saying about corruption and critical thinking but, it seems like what you are looking for is perfection, and you are never going to find. Not being perfect is not the same thing as being abusive. Being human doesn't naturally translate into being abusive....at least I don't see it.
But, then again, I have been around some pretty amazing and selfless people who make me want to be better, so I may need to just get out more!!! :)
To me....this sounds like a bit of an extreme perspective, but then again, I am blond and seriously may be missing something I could very well agree with. You sound a bit like my hubby, so maybe there is something to this Pollyanna/Cynic match.
Your husband sounds like a highly intelligent man! :) As far as the blond comment; no, you are not the stereotypical "blond" society tries to put on people. I enjoy your comments. Besides, I'm blond too.
It is a good thing that there is something which keeps some people in check or is there no such thing?
I agree that it is good there are things that keep people in check, and I believe there are such things.
I will tell you a secret BA...I know when certain people are using me and sometimes, I just look past that and let them. If I can offer some kind of help and support...I don't look for the evil motive....I often just do it. It happened to me today. Sometimes people just don't know how to ask for help, but that doesn't make them abusive. Sometimes people are struggling with issues and can't reach out.
Actually, that really is a better perspective. That goes along with the verse that says, "if someone bids you to walk a mile with him, walk two."
I also know that people can have expectations of me, without me looking at it as abusive. I would hope that there are expectations of me.
People are people, but that is everyone... including you and me. Do you really believe you are abusive or can become abusive by your definition? If you are aware of it....why can't you check it? Is it worth it to use someone? No, of course not.
I realize that people are people and that includes me. Do I really believe I am abusive or can be abusive? Absolutely! Man, I'm a Corps Grad! I've seen me be abusive. If I begin to strike out on my own and disregard input from others, or if I engage certain habit patters and don't forsake other habit patterns, yes, I will become abusive. Why can't I check it? Because I need others around me, so does everyone else. I need Jesus, I'm too weak to put my own sin nature in check. That's what I believe anyway. No, it's not worth it to use someone. However, when one is an abuser and in the throes of his abusiveness, he usually has it rationalized as to why his behavior is justified. It will sound like insanity to everyone else, but to him it will make complete sense.
Remember, some people give their lives for others...complete strangers donate marrow and blood....give their organs in death to give others life. We are made in God's image....and God can be pretty good.
I get what Skyrider is saying about corruption and critical thinking but, it seems like what you are looking for is perfection...
Quite to the contrary. I am saying that perfection is impossible with people. That's why we need to be transparent with each other and hold each other accountable and understand that everyone struggles with something. Maybe I'm not communicating very well, but such thinking allows me to show more grace to others...when I realize that expecting perfection on my part is unreasonable.
Not being perfect is not the same thing as being abusive.
Agreed.
Being human doesn't naturally translate into being abusive....at least I don't see it.
Hmm. I don't know if I agree with that or not. Fallen humanity, I think, does translate into being abusive...I mean, I think so, maybe...perhaps.
Your comment about looking past people's stuff and helping them out is making me re-think all this.
But, then again, I have been around some pretty amazing and selfless people who make me want to be better, so I may need to just get out more!!! :)
I do know how you feel, BA. A few years back, we went through a situation with a church plant where the pastor, who seemed to be a stand-up guy, raped a 15 year old girl on the floor of his office. After a couple of days, she managed to gather herself together and go to the cops, he was arrested and plea bargained his way out of rape charges. It was all over the local papers. He got eight years; I though Galatians 5:12 would be more appropriate.
Apparently, the association of churches to which this pastor belonged sent a letter to the other pastors in the association stating that "we must do everything we can to help and support our brother during this difficult time."
Support him? What about the 15-year-old girl? She was a kid, he was 45 with a wife and two children, and a pastor for Pete's sake. I don't care if she pranced into his office naked as a jay-bird, threw herself down on his desk and said "please!" He just should have run like the very devil was on his heels.
This letter was mentioned on-line in a series of comments on the article in the local newspaper. I was outraged! I will never support a church of that particular denomination again. I don't know who got a hold of that letter and published parts of it, but they sure did me a favor.
There's nothing new under the sun, and man continues to devise evil. It's hard not to take the evil personally, but I think it's more the human nature to try to have one up on the other fella.
Your post made me feel sad.
Thank you Ms. Garden! I didn't mean to make you feel sad! :(
Never trust anyone who has to ask whether or not you trust them. Under normal circumstances, trust is a given, it doesn't have to be rality checked.
I have two pat answers for that question:
1. I trust, but I also verify
2. Sure, I trust you. But, I don't trust the devil inside you.
SoCrates
How about, "In God We Trust, all others pay cash."?
Geisha and Broken Arrow, very good comments. Somehow I find myself agreeing with both of you.
But then, as we've come to know, in life one size doesn't fit all.
Perhaps an answer is to do what one can do, without compromising one's personal integrity. Not that that's any guarantee (maybe one never had much integrity) - but when one starts ignoring the red flags in one's own and others' lives, then there's a straying into potentially abusive territory.
I get what Skyrider is saying about corruption and critical thinking but, it seems like what you are looking for is perfection, and you are never going to find. Not being perfect is not the same thing as being abusive. Being human doesn't naturally translate into being abusive....at least I don't see it.
Well....I certainly wasn't looking for perfection, but leaders should be held accountable to higher standards. Wierwille set up a system and culture wherein he was above reproach....trustees, inner circle, yes-men suckups, bodyguards, extreme privacy, etc. Even in martidale's era, people would lie in a court of law to protect twi.
Everything that I've learned since leaving twi only CONFIRMS the suspicions and red flags that I saw back in 1978 & 79.
When I left twi and took a management position.....within two weeks, they had a seminar on leadership, proper relationships and sexual harrassment. I learned more that weekend on proper boundaries and what constitutes sexual abuse than the corps training ever taught!!
Yet.....the corps were to walk in lockstep loyalty with wierwille's ilk?
I believe the corps training was INDOCTRINATION.
And, I highly suspect that like Jason Bourne (in Bourne Identity)....many advanced class grads and corps grads will NEVER figure out WHERE IT ALL BEGAN.
It was indoctrination. Dogmatic groups resort to that to keep believers from asking uncomfortable questions. Any closed belief system of necessity has to do that - otherwise they wouldn't be a "system" they would be an open forum, willing to entertain challenging questions and not be dogmatic about their beliefs.
I went to Catholic school for 8 years and experienced indoctrination there, too. TWI took the process up a few notches with the Way Corps program. I lived in Trailer Six with 20 women, ten bunks, and 2 bathrooms for two years and believe me, I know. Doubt of VP or what he taught or how he ran The Corps was the enemy. Certainty was the rule. In the end, as I read somewhere, it is not doubt, however, that produces madness, it is certainty.
For more of my opinions on this topic, see post #245 here: The way VP was
Well....I certainly wasn't looking for perfection, but leaders should be held accountable to higher standards. Wierwille set up a system and culture wherein he was above reproach....trustees, inner circle, yes-men suckups, bodyguards, extreme privacy, etc. Even in martidale's era, people would lie in a court of law to protect twi.
Everything that I've learned since leaving twi only CONFIRMS the suspicions and red flags that I saw back in 1978 & 79.
When I left twi and took a management position.....within two weeks, they had a seminar on leadership, proper relationships and sexual harrassment. I learned more that weekend on proper boundaries and what constitutes sexual abuse than the corps training ever taught!!
Yet.....the corps were to walk in lockstep loyalty with wierwille's ilk?
I believe the corps training was INDOCTRINATION.
And, I highly suspect that like Jason Bourne (in Bourne Identity)....many advanced class grads and corps grads will NEVER figure out WHERE IT ALL BEGAN.
.
Corps training was indoctrination, but so was the PFAL series, it wasn't just some nice little bible class. There were red flags everywhere.
In fact, I was thinking recently, about my second encounter with a Wayfer, and how I should have seen those red flags even then. I was trying to figure out what it was that got me to ignore my own moral compass....which I can remember doing....and instead listen to this woman correct me on the difference between right and wrong.
I know what it was.
It was the authority with which she spoke about the bible. The bible, in my mind seemed to maybe have some kind of authority, but to me was a mystery. I wanted to know how to understand it....but did not have clue one. The issue of abortion came up in our discussion, and I said I thought it was wrong. Speaking to "bible" people, I figured this was a no brainer. She arrogantly and firmly corrected me with a verse of scripture and some convoluted explanation about breath-life. I can remember being taken aback...but, I also remember I had no authority other than my own sense of right and wrong....and she had the authority of scripture/God. Or so I believed. I was 19 years old and she was in her late 20's. I was unsure of myself.....she seemed SO sure of herself....and I let my own conscience be over-ridden. After all, we met up to discuss a bible class because I was seeking some answers. She had them.
If it was now, I would not be so easily manipulated. I would say, I will have to get back to you on that. But, TWI knew who to target. I was prime picking. Hungry, yet ignorant, and easily intimidated by authority. I was barely an adult myself.
Their manipulation was insidious, as it preyed on vulnerable people with real questions and seeking hearts. It was a facade, but it masqueraded as something that can be genuine. For me, there never was a time that it was a genuine Christian experience. I know that in hindsight, because, I have had that real fellowship with people. It was at first confusing to me, because it wasn't an in your face, life consuming experience. It was God centered, not people or word centered. I was actually put off because I missed the intensity between the people! Now that is a bit crazy.
I agree 200% with you about TWI. I just don't see it as translating into all areas of life. But, you clarified that you don't either....so we get each other. Some areas...YES!
Not to be too long winded...too late :) . Even when we do see manipulative behavior in people, We don't always have to confront it head on...and we don't have to run the other way. I am not speaking of cults...or groups that demand lock step loyalty....by all means run!! But, with everyday relationships....we can just answer them in a way that leaves them no where else to go...pretty soon they figure out it doesn't work on you...and it makes for a better relationship. At least that is my take on it.
Cults like TWI have an insidious approach. They prey upon the youth, love bomb them until they can get them in a class to indoctrinate, get them in lockstep loyaly, then steal years from them.
Down the road TWI leaders make such statements as "the ministry owes people nothing, but people owe the ministry everything because of the Word they were taught".
The lockstep loyalty no matter what they want is a one way street. They have no such loyalty for members.
I remember talking to one gentleman who most everyone would know who was in TWI. He told me "I gave TWI the best years of my life. Now they've cast me aside." That is the norm, not an exception. Simple statistics show this. What percentage of the people who have gone through TWI's leadership training program, the Way Corps, continue to associate with TWI? If overall numbers are less than 5%, what does that tell you?
I agree 200% with you about TWI. I just don't see it as translating into all areas of life. But, you clarified that you don't either....so we get each other. Some areas...YES!
Not to be too long winded...too late :) . Even when we do see manipulative behavior in people, We don't always have to confront it head on...and we don't have to run the other way. I am not speaking of cults...or groups that demand lock step loyalty....by all means run!! But, with everyday relationships....we can just answer them in a way that leaves them no where else to go...pretty soon they figure out it doesn't work on you...and it makes for a better relationship. At least that is my take on it.
Okay.....in moving past twi, what about other areas? Manipulation and messaging is everywhere, and the polarization is growing. Some become so rigid in their loyalty that it frames ever facet of their lives. Are these people being manipulated by the deep-pockets of billionaires and idealogues?
1) Mainstream media
2) Congress...both sides
3) Hollywood culture
4) College Academia
5) Planned Parenthood
Pick a topic like abortion. We know how twi addressed it....ie 'not life until breath-life.' And, those who followed the recent disclosures of the Philadelphia abortion clinic abuses and horrors.....repulsive. Yet, the lockstep loyalty seems to break along political party lines, NOT morality issues.
Ameria is facing huge debt and deficits.....and political power-brokers and lobbyists are the ultimate lockstep loyalists. Congressmen are closest to the people and SHOULD be voting on behalf of their constituents......NOT white house mandates, NOT lockstep loyalty. I know, I know.....none of this is new. But even some of the long-standing newscasters have commented that this polarization has escalated and is very dangerous.
Those of us who came from the throes of twi should be more capable than most......to see the manipulation, the coercion, and the betrayal of principles. Twi was like a microcosm of corruption....that many organizations and political systems brazenly adhere to.
"Never again, will I allow any one group have that much control over me."
I hear that a lot on this website. Let's hope we don't get led into another tyrannical system. If I may, I would suggest that it's important to realize how we get pulled into such a damaging organization.
I said all that to say I believe focusing on establishing healthier boundaries will serve us better.
I think that both sentiments are good. Personally, I will not allow any group to have that much control over me again (even though I was only in TWI a short time, I spent far too long there after I recognized what was happening.) But, like Broken Arrow suggests, I do not automatically shun all groups, but I do have a healthy level of skepticism.
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Broken Arrow
I hear that a lot on this website. Let's hope we don't get led into another tyrannical system. If I may, I would suggest that it's important to realize how we get pulled into such a damaging organizat
Broken Arrow
Thank you Ms. Garden! I didn't mean to make you feel sad! :( How about, "In God We Trust, all others pay cash."?
mstar1
Humanity
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chockfull
I think one of the positives about the information age is that global boundaries are removed. I read of people who want to serve volunteering to go over to Japan and contribute in areas of expertise - medical care, etc.
No longer is it the case where someone can isolate you from the world's information and perspective.
While a commitment to an individual group who has local impact is a good thing, it also is a good thing to have a broader perspective.
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Broken Arrow
Actually, I think I'm the one that misunderstood :) . I think I understand what Skyrider is saying and I think he's right. Here's an axiom I believe: Any organization that is overseen by men becomes abusive. This is regardless of how well intended the group may be. The question isn't whether a group is abusive. The question is how bad is it. (That is not a quote but I got the original idea from a man named Ken Blue in is book, Spiritual Abuse).
Case in point: A few years ago we had a major scandal within a charitable organization called The United Way. One of the officers was embezzeling. We had a similar situation happen within the local chapter of the American Cancer Society. You can't get any more well intentioned than that. Yet, trusted people became crooked. So I agree with Skyrider, one should not put their unfailing blind trust in any organization.
The truth is we need each other. The truth also is none of us can be trusted. So what's the answer? I have a couple of ideas. First of all, how open is the organization to dissenting opinions? How is the organization run? Is it run by just one person? To whom, if anyone, do they hold themselves accountable? What are my boundaries? How much will I put up with? If my standard is perfection then I'm going to have a difficult road to hoe. I do not agree with those who say that once we have given our money to an organization, then it's none of our business how they spend it. That organization has an obligation to disclose their inner workings. Personally, I would avoid any organization that purports their leadership is beyond reproach.
Some churches, if there is sexual impropriety on the part of one of their leaders will cover it up. Other churches will make their congregations aware.
So, maybe some think they'll handle this by avoiding participation in any group at all. An understandable yet impossible way to live. Do you have a job? Is it with an organization? I've been hard put to find any company that is completely honest. Are you self employed? Do you have human beings as clients?
One should not be fearful of being involved in an organization as long as that person remains informed and realizes human weakness...to a point. Perhaps that what Jesus was saying when he said to be "wise as serpents yet harmless as doves."
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Broken Arrow
I talk a good talk here but this is a tough area for me. I learned unquestioning obedience at the feet of TWI. That translates well in the workplace, too well. Many employers gladly hire doormats and treat them accordingly and that's what I've been for so long. I just can't play that role anymore and I'm afraid I've swung too much the other direction. I've just seen so much abuse and can smell it a mile away. I find myself unemployed right now because of my mouth, but hey, I still have my principals! (I'm being sarcastic)
I get angry at such little things like company officers having their own special parking places. As if their time is more important that everyone else's. I get angry when I sense high ranking officials desire that I get nervous when they come in and that I "snap to!" Or act like I'm such an impingement on their time when I have a question or whatever. I've got to figure out a way to get past this because it seems every organization wants their pecking order and get angry when it's not adhered to. While God may see us all equally, employers don't. I hate that.
An of course, sexual abuse can be rampant at the workplace. I hear a lot of stories of women having their jobs threatened if they did not comply with the "wishes" of their superior. Kind of a hard place to be in if one is a single mom. Uggh! The egotism of some people! These same people who are used to receiving worship come into my workplace and expect cow-towing from me and I don't play.
Anyway, I needed to get that off my chest. Sorry for the derail.
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Watered Garden
I do know how you feel, BA. A few years back, we went through a situation with a church plant where the pastor, who seemed to be a stand-up guy, raped a 15 year old girl on the floor of his office. After a couple of days, she managed to gather herself together and go to the cops, he was arrested and plea bargained his way out of rape charges. It was all over the local papers. He got eight years; I though Galatians 5:12 would be more appropriate.
Apparently, the association of churches to which this pastor belonged sent a letter to the other pastors in the association stating that "we must do everything we can to help and support our brother during this difficult time."
Support him? What about the 15-year-old girl? She was a kid, he was 45 with a wife and two children, and a pastor for Pete's sake. I don't care if she pranced into his office naked as a jay-bird, threw herself down on his desk and said "please!" He just should have run like the very devil was on his heels.
This letter was mentioned on-line in a series of comments on the article in the local newspaper. I was outraged! I will never support a church of that particular denomination again. I don't know who got a hold of that letter and published parts of it, but they sure did me a favor.
There's nothing new under the sun, and man continues to devise evil. It's hard not to take the evil personally, but I think it's more the human nature to try to have one up on the other fella.
Your post made me feel sad.
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geisha779
So is God dead then? He must be if He has not raised up any good and honest people to work through. No one is committed to Him? True faith is dead?
Maybe I don't understand the point. It could be, because it is hard to fathom such a drastic conclusion based on a few experiences. People are people. Maybe I am a Pollyanna, but, it has not been my experience since leaving TWI that people are inherently evil and abusive. Why the heck, would people bother to commit their entire lives to alleviating the suffering of others, just to become abusive to those helping them with their vision? You are saying this is inevitable?
It all seems so cynical . . . . I think I must be missing the point. Seriously. I am not kidding...I don't get it. I don't think my mind works this way. I see so much good in people working together. I am dealing with Hospice right now...and it is an amazing experience. I am so thankful for them!
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skyrider
Well...I didn't start this thread to be cynical of ALL organizations.
It just seems that *most* people have lost all sense of critical thinking skills and/or their moral compass. When or where is the tipping point.....when people finally say, "I've had enough of the double standard hypocrisy and ain't gonna take it anymore."
In religion.......most of us have seen our share of abuse in twi. Okay, we're exposing it, but there are still some who left twi decades ago....yet, still praise wierwille. How can some vpw-defenders be so blind? Same with the Catholic Church.....all the abuse, the pedophile priests. Other church pastors who've strayed and abused.
In charitable groups.....we hear more and more that most of the money goes toward administrative fees and not to the people. In Haiti....about one million of those people are still in tents.
In public unions....the collective bargaining issue has come front and center. Teachers are standing shoulder to shoulder with communist and anarchist groups for THEIR excessive pension plans and healthcare benefits. All of this is unsustainable and the private sector is awakening. The UK unions are destroying property. The elitist attitude is astounding.
Just seems like groups and unions are pushing buttons.
Just seems like everything is spiraling out of control.
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geisha779
Well, I get that. But, see....something good came out of TWI...we are more aware. :) Yes, there is corruption everywhere...I agree...even in churches, but there is also good. People helping people with no agenda other than that. It is out there. I promise you.
You and I can still make a difference with our lives, even if it is knowing the difference between right and wrong and speaking to it.
Not such a bad a way to be. We still have something to offer! Our shared experience makes us somewhat unique...and God can turn it to good!
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So_crates
You forgot SEIU's Steve Lerner: a union organizer, who claims to be for the working class, coming up with a plan to crash the stock market with morgage strikes the first week of May, wiping out people's 401ks, pensions, and retirement account--all those benefits he says he's protecting. Not to mention making banks insolvent which would wipe out people's savings. And what would happen to all those jobs he claimed for so many years he was trying to protect.
SoCrates
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Broken Arrow
Maybe you're a "Pollyanna", maybe I'm a cynic, or a "Puddleglum" as my wife sometimes calls me.
Yes. I believe if left unchecked, people will abuse others intentionally, or unintentionally. Someone said, "The best of men are men at best". Then, of course, there's the familiar saying, "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Even people, in my opinion, who commit their entire lives to alleviating the suffering of others can fall prey to this. All they have to do is set up an organization and have at least one other person involved. Soon there will be disagreement on how things should operate and there we go. We humanoids are full of both evil as well as righteous desires.
Perhaps I should define abuse. I'm not necessarily talking about sexual molestation or stealing. . I am talking about when someone uses someone else for their own selfish benefit. It might be as simple as letting someone work themselves silly on our behalf to make us look good and deep inside we know they need a break. Does this mean there are no good organizations out there? No, I don't believe that. I'm not writing this to be depressing or hopeless. I think it's freeing to realize that every single one of us has an achilles heal. With that knowledge, we can have understanding and maybe even show mercy to someone who stumbles. With this knowledge perhaps we can help each other from getting in over our own heads and becoming corrupt. This knowledge keeps us honest with ourselves as well. We know we can be deceived, so we're not insecure when confronted. Yes, there's a "little Hitler" that lives in each one of us. I think a healthy organization knows this and should establish safeguards.
I've seen where organizations resist such transparency and come back with something like, "Don't you trust us? Do you really think I would...." No. I don't trust anyone with a completely free reign. Man in his current state cannot handle unbridled authority.
As for an organization that refuses to examine itself, and who refuses to let others examine them, avoid it because they are lying. People who won't share things because others "can't handle it", are hiding something, guarantee it.
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So_crates
Never trust anyone who has to ask whether or not you trust them. Under normal circumstances, trust is a given, it doesn't have to be rality checked.
I have two pat answers for that question:
1. I trust, but I also verify
2. Sure, I trust you. But, I don't trust the devil inside you.
SoCrates
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excathedra
"humanity" i liked that
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geisha779
BA
To me....this sounds like a bit of an extreme perspective, but then again, I am blond and seriously may be missing something I could very well agree with. You sound a bit like my hubby, so maybe there is something to this Pollyanna/Cynic match.
It is a good thing that there is something which keeps some people in check or is there no such thing?
I will tell you a secret BA...I know when certain people are using me and sometimes, I just look past that and let them. If I can offer some kind of help and support...I don't look for the evil motive....I often just do it. It happened to me today. Sometimes people just don't know how to ask for help, but that doesn't make them abusive. Sometimes people are struggling with issues and can't reach out.
I also know that people can have expectations of me, without me looking at it as abusive. I would hope that there are expectations of me.
People are people, but that is everyone... including you and me. Do you really believe you are abusive or can become abusive by your definition? If you are aware of it....why can't you check it? Is it worth it to use someone? No, of course not.
Remember, some people give their lives for others...complete strangers donate marrow and blood....give their organs in death to give others life. We are made in God's image....and God can be pretty good.
I get what Skyrider is saying about corruption and critical thinking but, it seems like what you are looking for is perfection, and you are never going to find. Not being perfect is not the same thing as being abusive. Being human doesn't naturally translate into being abusive....at least I don't see it.
But, then again, I have been around some pretty amazing and selfless people who make me want to be better, so I may need to just get out more!!! :)
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excathedra
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Broken Arrow
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Broken Arrow
Thank you Ms. Garden! I didn't mean to make you feel sad! :(
How about, "In God We Trust, all others pay cash."?
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Twinky
This is turning into a very interesting thread.
Geisha and Broken Arrow, very good comments. Somehow I find myself agreeing with both of you.
But then, as we've come to know, in life one size doesn't fit all.
Perhaps an answer is to do what one can do, without compromising one's personal integrity. Not that that's any guarantee (maybe one never had much integrity) - but when one starts ignoring the red flags in one's own and others' lives, then there's a straying into potentially abusive territory.
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skyrider
Well....I certainly wasn't looking for perfection, but leaders should be held accountable to higher standards. Wierwille set up a system and culture wherein he was above reproach....trustees, inner circle, yes-men suckups, bodyguards, extreme privacy, etc. Even in martidale's era, people would lie in a court of law to protect twi.
Everything that I've learned since leaving twi only CONFIRMS the suspicions and red flags that I saw back in 1978 & 79.
When I left twi and took a management position.....within two weeks, they had a seminar on leadership, proper relationships and sexual harrassment. I learned more that weekend on proper boundaries and what constitutes sexual abuse than the corps training ever taught!!
Yet.....the corps were to walk in lockstep loyalty with wierwille's ilk?
I believe the corps training was INDOCTRINATION.
And, I highly suspect that like Jason Bourne (in Bourne Identity)....many advanced class grads and corps grads will NEVER figure out WHERE IT ALL BEGAN.
.
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penworks
It was indoctrination. Dogmatic groups resort to that to keep believers from asking uncomfortable questions. Any closed belief system of necessity has to do that - otherwise they wouldn't be a "system" they would be an open forum, willing to entertain challenging questions and not be dogmatic about their beliefs.
I went to Catholic school for 8 years and experienced indoctrination there, too. TWI took the process up a few notches with the Way Corps program. I lived in Trailer Six with 20 women, ten bunks, and 2 bathrooms for two years and believe me, I know. Doubt of VP or what he taught or how he ran The Corps was the enemy. Certainty was the rule. In the end, as I read somewhere, it is not doubt, however, that produces madness, it is certainty.
For more of my opinions on this topic, see post #245 here: The way VP was
Cheers!
Penworks
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So_crates
Of course.
That's one thing I carried away from Jacob Bronowski's The Ascent of Man.
In one of the final scenes of the 13 episode series aired on PBS, he was stnding near a pool in Auschwitz noting that it was filled with human ash.
He said the holocaust was cause by certainty and arrogance. "What if they had stopped," he asked, "and thought for a moment, I could be wrong?"
SoCrates
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geisha779
Corps training was indoctrination, but so was the PFAL series, it wasn't just some nice little bible class. There were red flags everywhere.
In fact, I was thinking recently, about my second encounter with a Wayfer, and how I should have seen those red flags even then. I was trying to figure out what it was that got me to ignore my own moral compass....which I can remember doing....and instead listen to this woman correct me on the difference between right and wrong.
I know what it was.
It was the authority with which she spoke about the bible. The bible, in my mind seemed to maybe have some kind of authority, but to me was a mystery. I wanted to know how to understand it....but did not have clue one. The issue of abortion came up in our discussion, and I said I thought it was wrong. Speaking to "bible" people, I figured this was a no brainer. She arrogantly and firmly corrected me with a verse of scripture and some convoluted explanation about breath-life. I can remember being taken aback...but, I also remember I had no authority other than my own sense of right and wrong....and she had the authority of scripture/God. Or so I believed. I was 19 years old and she was in her late 20's. I was unsure of myself.....she seemed SO sure of herself....and I let my own conscience be over-ridden. After all, we met up to discuss a bible class because I was seeking some answers. She had them.
If it was now, I would not be so easily manipulated. I would say, I will have to get back to you on that. But, TWI knew who to target. I was prime picking. Hungry, yet ignorant, and easily intimidated by authority. I was barely an adult myself.
Their manipulation was insidious, as it preyed on vulnerable people with real questions and seeking hearts. It was a facade, but it masqueraded as something that can be genuine. For me, there never was a time that it was a genuine Christian experience. I know that in hindsight, because, I have had that real fellowship with people. It was at first confusing to me, because it wasn't an in your face, life consuming experience. It was God centered, not people or word centered. I was actually put off because I missed the intensity between the people! Now that is a bit crazy.
I agree 200% with you about TWI. I just don't see it as translating into all areas of life. But, you clarified that you don't either....so we get each other. Some areas...YES!
Not to be too long winded...too late :) . Even when we do see manipulative behavior in people, We don't always have to confront it head on...and we don't have to run the other way. I am not speaking of cults...or groups that demand lock step loyalty....by all means run!! But, with everyday relationships....we can just answer them in a way that leaves them no where else to go...pretty soon they figure out it doesn't work on you...and it makes for a better relationship. At least that is my take on it.
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chockfull
Cults like TWI have an insidious approach. They prey upon the youth, love bomb them until they can get them in a class to indoctrinate, get them in lockstep loyaly, then steal years from them.
Down the road TWI leaders make such statements as "the ministry owes people nothing, but people owe the ministry everything because of the Word they were taught".
The lockstep loyalty no matter what they want is a one way street. They have no such loyalty for members.
I remember talking to one gentleman who most everyone would know who was in TWI. He told me "I gave TWI the best years of my life. Now they've cast me aside." That is the norm, not an exception. Simple statistics show this. What percentage of the people who have gone through TWI's leadership training program, the Way Corps, continue to associate with TWI? If overall numbers are less than 5%, what does that tell you?
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skyrider
Okay.....in moving past twi, what about other areas? Manipulation and messaging is everywhere, and the polarization is growing. Some become so rigid in their loyalty that it frames ever facet of their lives. Are these people being manipulated by the deep-pockets of billionaires and idealogues?
1) Mainstream media
2) Congress...both sides
3) Hollywood culture
4) College Academia
5) Planned Parenthood
Pick a topic like abortion. We know how twi addressed it....ie 'not life until breath-life.' And, those who followed the recent disclosures of the Philadelphia abortion clinic abuses and horrors.....repulsive. Yet, the lockstep loyalty seems to break along political party lines, NOT morality issues.
Ameria is facing huge debt and deficits.....and political power-brokers and lobbyists are the ultimate lockstep loyalists. Congressmen are closest to the people and SHOULD be voting on behalf of their constituents......NOT white house mandates, NOT lockstep loyalty. I know, I know.....none of this is new. But even some of the long-standing newscasters have commented that this polarization has escalated and is very dangerous.
Those of us who came from the throes of twi should be more capable than most......to see the manipulation, the coercion, and the betrayal of principles. Twi was like a microcosm of corruption....that many organizations and political systems brazenly adhere to.
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DocHoliday
"Never again, will I allow any one group have that much control over me."
I think that both sentiments are good. Personally, I will not allow any group to have that much control over me again (even though I was only in TWI a short time, I spent far too long there after I recognized what was happening.) But, like Broken Arrow suggests, I do not automatically shun all groups, but I do have a healthy level of skepticism.
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