I figure I won't know for sure until I'm dead myself... And I don't believe necessarily that Christianity is the only way to heaven of there is one. Guess my answer is - whatever works.
Sometimes I think people use "heaven" and "hell" as the reason they choose to do right or do wrong. The reward or the punishment at the end of life is the motivation to treat others with kindness, to not act out of selfish desires, to "do the right thing."
But if the reward for good behavior isn't there, or the fear of punishment isn't there, would they still be kind to others? Would they resist the temptation to steal from another person?
In a way, seeing good done by an atheist or an agnostic almost speaks of more altruism than those who are religious.
Why should we be nice to others if there is no one looking over us keeping score for the time you die?
Just thinking deep thoughts tonight... And I don't mean that atheist/agnostics/insert-random-belief-here-people are somehow better than Christians at all. I just think it is important for each person to understand why they do what they do.
I hear what you're saying, Geisha. We were taught to be anti-mainstream Christianity while we were in TWI, and now we're being anti-TWI.
I just don't hear that in what everyone posts. This is essentially an anti-TWI site, so of course you will hear anti-TWI stories and opinions. And there have been a few who express that they pretty much go from day to day without an over-arching belief system. But many others have written about very definite belief systems and why they have adopted them: various Christian denominations, Judaism, paganism, or none of the above.
I also have heard heartfelt stories on Greasespot of people doing amazing things for others. Their actions are telling you what their beliefs are -- no, not beliefs in the resurrection necessarily, but beliefs in love, service, work without expectation of reward, forgiveness, etc.
And isn't that what sickened us the most about TWI -- the hypocrisy? I can bet there are a few hermits among us. But if half of what I've read is true, there are also a lot of people writing for a short time on a website, but the rest of the time going out and doing, trying to be the kinds of people we had wanted to learn to be through TWI.
So Waysider, to answer your question...
I know longer think that "I know that I know," but I hope there is something after. I try to make a difference in the world just because it helps, not because I want a "crown." So yeah, if Christianity had only been about the Golden Rule, and Jesus had been a great guy who died of natural causes, I still would be following His precepts.
Shaz
Shaz, great post! I would still follow in the footsteps of Christ, because he seemed to have his sheet together.
I got to thinking about it because I had an "obvious" (it was obvious to my thinking, which meant it was almost automatic) that there's an "obvious" answer to "why bother if there's no afterlife and there's only this life." Any "Lawful" might see a benefit to all from helping to keep society as a whole, and any "Good" might say that doing good for others and making their lives better is a goal in itself and a worthy accomplishment whether or not there's treasures in Heaven for it. It's just as "obvious" to some other people, I'd expect, that my points were useless nonsense. Well, it all depends on your place in the "idea spectrum."
A lot of Christianity is sacrifice. It's a simple concept to know if you withhold gratification there will be future benefits. Invest your money and it will grow into more than you have now. But in the future. (Mathew 25:27) Money is a simple example.
In TWI we gave money and time because we thought God would bless us and others back somehow. . . . That didn't pan out. So it's easy to dismiss the whole idea of sacrifice after that mess. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
If you think of Heaven, and God, as The Future that we negotiate with, or put our trust in as we make sacrifices or delay gratification for some purpose, sometimes not fully understood how it will work . . . Maybe a lot more people, who've left Christianity, do think and live like Christians more than they might realize. They don't think "treasures in Heaven" they think "Future prosperity and stability for all".
In Genesis, humankind's eyes were opened. Knowing Good and Evil.
From a perspective of Evolution. Humankind is more aware we will die than any other creature. That awareness, daily, drives our decisions. What will be do with our time?
In quantum physics waveforms occur when you put restrictions on the system.
Sound is made with different lengths of tubes or strings to form different soundwaves. These sounds are dependent on the physical material producing them. Music combines these sounds in a multitude of ways.
You could run with that. People are represented as waves of different complexity and society is combinations of those.
But,
In TWI, it's declared we've got eternal life and The Adversary can't take that away. Even though LCM shouted just the opposite, You won't really die. . . .
That particular TWI doctrine removes the restrictions on the system. You're born, but no death? Just a string hanging on a wall by one end, blowing in the breeze? No wave can form. What urgency is there then, without death? What would drive critical thinking and action? You're just a flat line. Limp. Boring.
Thanks Waysider for asking the question. Might have rehashed some things but it's deeper than I thought.
Sometimes I think people use "heaven" and "hell" as the reason they choose to do right or do wrong. The reward or the punishment at the end of life is the motivation to treat others with kindness, to not act out of selfish desires, to "do the right thing."
But if the reward for good behavior isn't there, or the fear of punishment isn't there, would they still be kind to others? Would they resist the temptation to steal from another person?
In a way, seeing good done by an atheist or an agnostic almost speaks of more altruism than those who are religious.
Why should we be nice to others if there is no one looking over us keeping score for the time you die?
Just thinking deep thoughts tonight... And I don't mean that atheist/agnostics/insert-random-belief-here-people are somehow better than Christians at all. I just think it is important for each person to understand why they do what they do.
Does that make sense?
Yup - makes sense to me.....I think that's one of the most profound points on this thread - understanding WHY we do the things we do...
This hypothetical premise challenged me to really scrutinize my motivations - attempt to strip everything down to bare bones - and for some reason - maybe because I've been out of TWI for a very long time and don't have all those pious-sounding platitudes superimposed on my faculty of reason - I simply answered in the manner of how I live now.
That's not to say that in an actual big crisis I would respond like Dudley Dooright - but think about this - the more training scenarios you have under your belt - the more likely you are to succeed when your training is put to the test - military, law enforcement, first-responders like paramedics and fire departments stake their lives and those of others on that !
So my point is - taking it down a few notches from those extreme crises I just mentioned - maybe life's journey is also partly a series of training scenarios, in that the course we choose to take in a particular situation may also serve to reinforce a pattern of kindness...or self-centeredness...or whatever it is that typifies our response.
Animals have morals. So morality evolved over time because it works. Animals are agnostic or atheist, you could say.
Religion evolves as groups seek to express and apply that morality in greater detail. Morality existed before language. Before humanity. Before that extra bit that makes us human. One reason that ancient texts are vague and yet express clear truth somehow.
I think humans have some extra drive to good or evil.
So if Christianity had no afterlife, we'd still be moral. But, thinking you'll never die, or not being cognizant of your own certain death, I think removes some 'oomph' to human life. Which something TWI took away by design.
Some animals will protect their own young, care for them and nurture them. Others are just as likely to drive away or kill their young, either to remove a potential threat or for food. Some female animals will nurture the young of other species. But I don't think that's "morality" so much as an inbuilt maternal instinct, that some individual animals have more than other individuals. Most animals kill other animals for food. Some kill for fun, sport. Some don't eat other animals at all.
Animals have instincts. Instincts are not "morals."
Some animals will protect their own young, care for them and nurture them. Others are just as likely to drive away or kill their young, either to remove a potential threat or for food. Some female animals will nurture the young of other species. But I don't think that's "morality" so much as an inbuilt maternal instinct, that some individual animals have more than other individuals. Most animals kill other animals for food. Some kill for fun, sport. Some don't eat other animals at all.
Animals have instincts. Instincts are not "morals."
Humans kill to live. So do you.
My cats are playing right now. Rather roughly. But, no hard biting or scratching. Because those are the Rules they have for each other.
Seriously, I don't care either way. It's your argument, not mine.
ok.
I think we're born with the instincts for morality and to work in a society. That we're born into a society certainly helps with guiding that development.
I realize some folks here are Christian and some no longer are. With that is mind, feel free to adjust the verb tense (past or present) as you deem applicable.
So.... what if the batteries weren't included? What if everything about Christianity remained the same EXCEPT for the afterlife part? (ie: No promise of an afterlife, just things that apply to life in the here and now.) Is/was that a "deal breaker" as they say?
Please, no Sunday School lessons. Just a simple "yes/no/I'm not sure" and a brief explanation of why (or why not)
I keep thinking on this.
Our society is significantly built around Christianity. Thousands of years in the making.
Even if we've left Christianity we will still function like Christians.
(I tend to think the idea we'd start partying all day is not terribly realistic.)
Most everyone who "quits Christianity" would remain Christian in their behavior. But maybe not fully aware of that.
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TLC
If so, it probably stemmed from something LCM was into or working on. Who's thoughts on the matter, by the way, were subsequently challenged by mrs. vpw during one of the research fellowship meetings
Bolshevik
Pascal's Wager Wiki article Recommend book on cult life Quick overview:
DogLover
I go with Paul's sentiments ... if the dead be not raised, let's eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. Thankfully, there is eternal life.
Grace Valerie Claire
Yes!
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Grace Valerie Claire
I'll drink to that!
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Grace Valerie Claire
It makes a great deal of sense!
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Grace Valerie Claire
True!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Shaz, great post! I would still follow in the footsteps of Christ, because he seemed to have his sheet together.
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Bolshevik
A lot of Christianity is sacrifice. It's a simple concept to know if you withhold gratification there will be future benefits. Invest your money and it will grow into more than you have now. But in the future. (Mathew 25:27) Money is a simple example.
In TWI we gave money and time because we thought God would bless us and others back somehow. . . . That didn't pan out. So it's easy to dismiss the whole idea of sacrifice after that mess. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
If you think of Heaven, and God, as The Future that we negotiate with, or put our trust in as we make sacrifices or delay gratification for some purpose, sometimes not fully understood how it will work . . . Maybe a lot more people, who've left Christianity, do think and live like Christians more than they might realize. They don't think "treasures in Heaven" they think "Future prosperity and stability for all".
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Grace Valerie Claire
OS, wow!! Good point!!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Tape, I think that is why so many of us were attracted to TWI. We wanted to be loved, and to belong.
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Bolshevik
In Genesis, humankind's eyes were opened. Knowing Good and Evil.
From a perspective of Evolution. Humankind is more aware we will die than any other creature. That awareness, daily, drives our decisions. What will be do with our time?
In quantum physics waveforms occur when you put restrictions on the system.
Sound is made with different lengths of tubes or strings to form different soundwaves. These sounds are dependent on the physical material producing them. Music combines these sounds in a multitude of ways.
You could run with that. People are represented as waves of different complexity and society is combinations of those.
But,
In TWI, it's declared we've got eternal life and The Adversary can't take that away. Even though LCM shouted just the opposite, You won't really die. . . .
That particular TWI doctrine removes the restrictions on the system. You're born, but no death? Just a string hanging on a wall by one end, blowing in the breeze? No wave can form. What urgency is there then, without death? What would drive critical thinking and action? You're just a flat line. Limp. Boring.
Thanks Waysider for asking the question. Might have rehashed some things but it's deeper than I thought.
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T-Bone
Yup - makes sense to me.....I think that's one of the most profound points on this thread - understanding WHY we do the things we do...
This hypothetical premise challenged me to really scrutinize my motivations - attempt to strip everything down to bare bones - and for some reason - maybe because I've been out of TWI for a very long time and don't have all those pious-sounding platitudes superimposed on my faculty of reason - I simply answered in the manner of how I live now.
That's not to say that in an actual big crisis I would respond like Dudley Dooright - but think about this - the more training scenarios you have under your belt - the more likely you are to succeed when your training is put to the test - military, law enforcement, first-responders like paramedics and fire departments stake their lives and those of others on that !
So my point is - taking it down a few notches from those extreme crises I just mentioned - maybe life's journey is also partly a series of training scenarios, in that the course we choose to take in a particular situation may also serve to reinforce a pattern of kindness...or self-centeredness...or whatever it is that typifies our response.
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Bolshevik
Still thinking . .
Morality existed before humans ever existed.
Animals have morals. So morality evolved over time because it works. Animals are agnostic or atheist, you could say.
Religion evolves as groups seek to express and apply that morality in greater detail. Morality existed before language. Before humanity. Before that extra bit that makes us human. One reason that ancient texts are vague and yet express clear truth somehow.
I think humans have some extra drive to good or evil.
So if Christianity had no afterlife, we'd still be moral. But, thinking you'll never die, or not being cognizant of your own certain death, I think removes some 'oomph' to human life. Which something TWI took away by design.
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Twinky
Do animals have morals? How do you know?
Some animals will protect their own young, care for them and nurture them. Others are just as likely to drive away or kill their young, either to remove a potential threat or for food. Some female animals will nurture the young of other species. But I don't think that's "morality" so much as an inbuilt maternal instinct, that some individual animals have more than other individuals. Most animals kill other animals for food. Some kill for fun, sport. Some don't eat other animals at all.
Animals have instincts. Instincts are not "morals."
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Bolshevik
Twinky you'd be arguing then that humans aren't born with morality? Isn't that Tabula Rasa?
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Bolshevik
Humans kill to live. So do you.
My cats are playing right now. Rather roughly. But, no hard biting or scratching. Because those are the Rules they have for each other.
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Twinky
Tabula Rasa? I don't know her, is she nice?
Seriously, I don't care either way. It's your argument, not mine.
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Bolshevik
ok.
I think we're born with the instincts for morality and to work in a society. That we're born into a society certainly helps with guiding that development.
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Bolshevik
I keep thinking on this.
Our society is significantly built around Christianity. Thousands of years in the making.
Even if we've left Christianity we will still function like Christians.
(I tend to think the idea we'd start partying all day is not terribly realistic.)
Most everyone who "quits Christianity" would remain Christian in their behavior. But maybe not fully aware of that.
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