wonder how Wierwille, Geer, Martindale and company felt about Charles Dickens "A Christmas Carol" seeing that they all were Ebeneezer Scrooge
As a strict-selective-scripture-searcher -- wierwille would NEVER select "A Christmas Carol" as his choice of character....
Wierwille gravitated towards "A White Christmas" where he envisioned himself as the retired general and "his men" would rally to sing his praises.....and follow him anywhere!!
Merry Stressmas is more like it. It's no holiday if it causes an increase in the suicide rate, and drives people with little money into further debt. Christmas does both of those things each and every year.
As WW pointed out the elevated suicide rate at Christmas is an urban legend.
People may decide to make Christmas into a commercial event and max out their credit cards but imo they really really miss the point.
Here's a very simplified primer on advent and the approach to the Christmas season that should have been taught in TWI but never was...
Remember Wierwille was of the German Reformed tradition, not Lutheran or Moravian, or Episcopalian. Also blue is a legitimate alternate color(Spanish/Mozabic, Swedish, and English practices). Oh Merry Christmas, Froeliche Weinachten, Joyeux Noel, Feliz Navidad, and Buon Natali, and a Happy New Year.
I love Christmas because it's one day of the year when the whole world is pretty much on the same page: Jesus Christ is one to be reckoned with. Christians agree the Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings and those that want to destroy Christianity and the name Jesus Christ are focused as well. Jesus Christ is everyone's focus, for good or ill. Dividing the camps so to speak.
Anyway, I received this in Christmas email today. I like this guy's stuff and thought it would fit into this discussion:
Why I Celebrate Christmas, By Eric Elder, www.theranch.orgThere was a time when I almost gave up celebrating Christmas. Our kids were young and they weren't yet hooked on the idea of Santa Claus and presents, Christmas trees and decorations. I had even read that the Puritans who first came to America were so zealous in their faith that they didn't celebrate Christmas at all. They went so far as to fine their fellow Puritan businessmen if any of them didn't keep their shops open on Christmas day. The Puritans didn't want anything to do with a holiday that was conceivably rooted in paganism.
As a new believer and new father myself, the idea of going against the flow of the excesses of Christmas had its appeal, at least in some respects. But then I read an article by a man who simplyloved celebrating Christmas. He was both a pastor and one of the strongest Christians I had ever known. To his way of thinking, there could be no greater way to celebrate the birth of the most important figure in human history than having the grandest of parties for Him.
He explained that our word "holiday" came from the words "Holy Day," and he reminded me that the Bible often encouraged lavish celebrations on various "Holy Days" throughout the year. One such celebration is found in the book of Nehemiah, when the people were tempted to mourn and weep because of the situation in which they found themselves. But Nehemiah helped them to see that this wasn't a day to be dour, but a day to celebrate, and Nehemiah gave them some ideas about how to do it. The book of Nehemiah says:
"Then Nehemiah the governor, Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who were instructing the people said to them all, 'This day is sacred to the LORD your God. Do not mourn or weep.' For all the people had been weeping as they listened to the words of the Law.
"Nehemiah said, 'Go and enjoy choice food and sweet drinks, and send some to those who have nothing prepared. This day is sacred to our Lord. Do not grieve, for the joy of the LORD is your strength.'
"The Levites calmed all the people, saying, 'Be still, for this is a sacred [holy] day. Do not grieve.'
"Then all the people went away to eat and drink, to send portions of food and to celebrate with great joy, because they now understood the words that had been made known to them" (Nehemiah 8:9-12).
Sometimes people need to be reminded why they should celebrate something, especially when they're tempted to break down and cry instead.
So today, I'd like to give you a reminder, too, and encourage you to take some time today and throughout this "holi-day" season to celebrate the goodness of God.
Like the people in Nehemiah's day, you might not feel like rejoicing today. You might not feel like celebrating and feasting and giving gifts to one another. Things may have happened this week, or this month, or this year, that make you feel like crying instead. But let me remind you of what this day is about. It's a day that is dedicated to the one Man in the world who has loved you more than any other person ever could. A Man who, like His Father in heaven, wants to pour out His love on you today and every day from now until eternity. A Man who, being born in a barn and raised in a no-name city was able to give life and hope and purpose and meaning not only to people in His generation, but to people in our generation, some 2,000 years later.
His name, of course, is Jesus, and He was not only the Son of God, but the very essence of God Himself, who came to earth in human form to do what we could not do for ourselves: to die for our sins, so that we could live the lives He created us to live.
I remember the night I put my faith in Christ so clearly. You may have heard me tell you this before, but I'd like to remind you of it once again, as it may help to remind you why you can celebrate His coming into the world, too.
It was back in 1987 at a point in my life when I finally realized I had sinned deeply in the past and those sins were very likely to catch up with me soon. When I realized what I had done, I confessed my sins to God and agreed with Him that I was indeed guilty. Then something incredible happened. I heard a man speaking about Jesus in a way I had never heard before. I realized that Jesus wasn't surprised by my sins, but that He had come specifically to remove them, to wash them away, and to restore me in my relationship with God again. I was overwhelmed by the love that I felt that night. It went beyond anything I had ever known in my life.
I didn't know what to do. As God's love washed over me, I reached for a phone to call an old friend. I just felt like I had to express my love to someone. But then three words came into my mind: "Talk to Me." I didn't know what to make of them, so I reached for the phone a second time. Then I heard the words again in my mind saying, "Talk to Me." But a second time I ignored it and reached for the phone again. Then a third time, the words came again, simply and clearly saying: "Talk to Me." This time, I knew it was God.
For the third time, I put down the phone. I knelt down on my bed and buried my face in my pillow. I called out to God and I cried. And I cried. And I cried. I told God I was sorry for everything I had ever done wrong. I confessed to Him that I had taken a wrong turn somewhere along the way and I didn't want to go that way any more. I told Him that I wanted to straighten out my life and go His way from now on. I wanted Him to be my Lord. I wanted Him to call the shots from this day forward. I put my faith in Christ that day and I've never looked back.
It's been twenty-four years since I made that decision, and I've never regretted it, even when the days are hard or things don't go my way. I'd rather follow Jesus any day than my own way, because I know that whatever He has in store for me will ultimately work for good. Why? Because I know that He loves me, and because I know that He has a purpose for my life that goes beyond just what happens to me, but affects many other people around me as well. I know that God has a stake in my future that's bigger than whatever stake I might have in it. And as long as I'm surrendered to Him, I know that I can trust Him to guide me and direct me in the way that He wants me to go.
So why do I celebrate Christmas? Because it's a day when I can remind myself again of all that God has done for me through Christ--and to praise Him for it. I'm so thankful He came into the world. I'm so thankful He showed me the way to live. I'm so thankful He's given me a reason to get up in the morning, if only to breathe in and out and praise Him for giving me the breath to do it. When you're in love with someone, it makes you want to celebrate them.
I love celebrating the birth of Christ, just as I love celebrating the birth of other important people in my life that I love so dearly. My wife's birthday happens to be on Christmas day, and when I think about what she's meant to me in my life, believe me, it makes me want to celebrate! It makes me want to have a huge party and give gifts and let everyone know how much I love her! (She doesn't want a huge party like that, but the love in my heart for her makes me want to give her one!)
In the same way, the love in my heart for Jesus makes me want to celebrate His coming into the world, too. There's no better way for me to spend Christmas day than by remembering what He's done for me.
And if Christ has come into your life in a meaningful way, too, then you have a good reason to celebrate this special "holi-day" as well. And I hope you'll do it with gusto, whether you celebrate it by yourself, on your knees or with your head in your pillow, or whether you go to a full-blown party with family and friends or co-workers or even strangers. Praise God with your heart and praise Him with your voice. Sing out to Him with a joyful spirit for all He's done in your life, even if you can't see the fruit of all He's done yet. He's still your God. He's still your Creator. He's still the one who gives you life and breath and a purpose for living every day that He keeps you here on this earth.
Let God have His way in your life today. Let Him remind you of His great love for you today. Let Him come to you and be with you on this special "Holy Day," this day that has been dedicated by Christians worldwide to celebrate the birth of God's Son, Emmanuel, which means quite literally, "God with us."
There's a time for crying and mourning what's been lost. But today is not that day. This is a day to celebrate what's been found. As the angel told the shepherds on the day that Jesus was born:
"Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; He is Christ the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger" (Luke 2:10-12).
Will you pray with me?
Father, thank You for coming into the world to be with us, and for saving us from our sins. Help us to celebrate You in a meaningful way today, whether alone or with others, whether in pain or at peace. Help us to know that You haven't left us alone, but that You always have been and always will be Emmanuel, "God with us." In Jesus' name, Amen.
P.S. I've posted a special Christmas song on our website for you to listen to today. It's called "What Child is This?" from a CD called "Tenderly" that I helped my super-talented sister to record on the grand piano. I hope you enjoy the song, and the rest of this holiday season. Click the link below to listen. I've also included the words below in case you'd like to meditate on them as you listen to the song. Merry Christmas!
We were involved from '82 to 1990, so I don't remember Craig talking about a Christ massacre. I do remember though when the whole Happy Household holiday thing started. It was at a Sunday Night Service or something when VP said "I'm sick and tired of hearing about a mass for Christ!" Then he launched into a tirade about Christ mas being a derivative of some Roman Catholic tradition and suggested we abandon such polluted verbiage and wish everyone a Happy Household Holiday. I guess he thought it was clever because it kind of rhymed with Ho Ho Ho.
So we did that for a few years, but dropped it as soon as we left TWI and have enjoyed celebrating Christmas ever since. Although being the somewhat judgmental folk that we are, we never included Santa Claus in our celebration. The kids, who were born while we were in, had never been taught that gifts came from Santa and we decided it was a stupid lie and haven't changed our minds about that.
Re. Thomas Loy Bumgarder's question
wonder how Wierwille, Geer, Martindale and company felt about Charles Dickens "A Christmas Carol" seeing that they all were Ebeneezer Scrooge
I actually came here to post a related question. I find myself unable to really enjoy that work because it's based, not on a recognition of the Birth of Christ, but on spiritualism. Scrooge is "redeemed" or converted if you will, by a visitation of apparitions and one dead friend; all of which are, according to TWI teaching, devilish deceptions. I've reconsidered a lot of TWI doctrine, but remain undecided about the whole death/afterlife and demons thing. The content of Dickens' tale is not only not Christ centered, it distinguishes the witness of the spirits from that of the Church. The Ghost of Christmas Present tells Scrooge he has 1,842 brothers. We are lead to believe those are other spirits. At one point he tells Scrooge that the hypocritical deeds of "men of the cloth" are not to be laid to the blame of him and his brothers, and that, as far as he is concerned, those men are strangers.
The underlying message of the story is the Church is corrupt so follow the spirits instead. Sorry, I can't buy that.
I think one of the reasons A Christmas Carol is such a popular movie that gets recycled and replayed so much every year is because it's another example of a man getting his life changed without recognizing Christ, which is what the secular world wants.
(I feel the same way about It's a Wonderful Life, but that's another story)
Okay, stepping down off the soapbox. What do you folks think about this? Am I being too pharisaic? What's wrong with my thinking on this issue?
I think tearing the down of "The Christmas Carol" and "It's a Wonderful Life" (and many of the other nice traditions people and families have developed comes from the same old "steal-kill-destroy" cult mentality which trives by insulting and denigrating anything that doesn't fit with one's opinion.
These two movies and so many traditions like ice skating, fruitcake, Christmas cards, Christmas presents, and other get-togethers during the Advent season bring hearts and souls into harmony with the giving kindness of the Lord, and (I believe) the more that happens, the more people's hearts can be opened to hear the Lord's voice.
Jesus gave parables which left Him as the subject as an unspoken foundation (the birds of the air, the lilies of the field which the Lord watches over and takes care of).
So "The Christmas Carol" could be seen as a parable that one needs to watch how they live today because they will be living in the consequences of those actions in the not-to-distant future, which lesson will be most pertinent when we see the Lord face to face and give an account of how we lived in our earth suits.
And "It's a Wonderful Life" could be seen as a parable to show that the kindness one gives has far-reaching implications for the whole world -- that kindness has a ripple effect such as a pebble tossed into a lake -- and of course the devil wants every Christian to feel isolated, alone, and of no importance so he/she will lose hope and loosen their grip on the hem of His garment.
I think that the arrogance of insulting and the attendant isolation it breeds is a mainstay of cult mentality, and learning to associate with, enjoy, and be friends with others is a vital part of growing in that love of Christ by which His friends are readily known.
It takes very little "in depth perception" to criticize, and it takes kindness from the Lord to have the type of Love with with the Lord lived and lives today in us.
I understand. My family is having a heavy Christmas season too.
You pray for us and we'll pray for you.
That wasn't intended to be a poem, it just came out that way.
@ KitSober.
Geez Kit I figured if anyone would agree with me it would be you. So the way you see it, my mind is still infected with a "steal-kill-destroy" cult mentality eh? Thanks for the support. Well, that's what I get for asking. :)
Maybe you're right. I'll give it prayerful consideration.
We were involved from '82 to 1990, so I don't remember Craig talking about a Christ massacre. I do remember though when the whole Happy Household holiday thing started. It was at a Sunday Night Service or something when VP said "I'm sick and tired of hearing about a mass for Christ!" Then he launched into a tirade about Christ mas being a derivative of some Roman Catholic tradition and suggested we abandon such polluted verbiage and wish everyone a Happy Household Holiday. I guess he thought it was clever because it kind of rhymed with Ho Ho Ho.
So we did that for a few years, but dropped it as soon as we left TWI and have enjoyed celebrating Christmas ever since. Although being the somewhat judgmental folk that we are, we never included Santa Claus in our celebration. The kids, who were born while we were in, had never been taught that gifts came from Santa and we decided it was a stupid lie and haven't changed our minds about that.
Re. Thomas Loy Bumgarder's question
I actually came here to post a related question. I find myself unable to really enjoy that work because it's based, not on a recognition of the Birth of Christ, but on spiritualism. Scrooge is "redeemed" or converted if you will, by a visitation of apparitions and one dead friend; all of which are, according to TWI teaching, devilish deceptions. I've reconsidered a lot of TWI doctrine, but remain undecided about the whole death/afterlife and demons thing. The content of Dickens' tale is not only not Christ centered, it distinguishes the witness of the spirits from that of the Church. The Ghost of Christmas Present tells Scrooge he has 1,842 brothers. We are lead to believe those are other spirits. At one point he tells Scrooge that the hypocritical deeds of "men of the cloth" are not to be laid to the blame of him and his brothers, and that, as far as he is concerned, those men are strangers.
The underlying message of the story is the Church is corrupt so follow the spirits instead. Sorry, I can't buy that.
I think one of the reasons A Christmas Carol is such a popular movie that gets recycled and replayed so much every year is because it's another example of a man getting his life changed without recognizing Christ, which is what the secular world wants.
(I feel the same way about It's a Wonderful Life, but that's another story)
Okay, stepping down off the soapbox. What do you folks think about this? Am I being too pharisaic? What's wrong with my thinking on this issue?
Much Merry Christmas to you too!
Hmmmm, "Christmas Carol" - well, the "ghosts" serve as metaphors for the past, present, and future. There is no "Christ" centered message, true. I suppose it means a lot of things to a lot of people. It's been a long time since I read it, frankly I don't think I've ever seen the entire movie of it or if I have which one - there's quite a few versions over the years if my impression is correct.
Much of Christianity believes those who are now dead in the "flesh" are alive in the "spirit" but I took the "ghosts" as metaphors for the self examination a person might do of their own life, reflection, etc.
I don't recall Dickens referencing "men of the cloth" specifically or making a Church versus the "ghosts" moral to be drawn....? Not sure about that but I may not be remembering it correctly.
Upon reflection the Scrooge character recognizes that he can help the Cratchit family and by helping the younger boy he saves his life without which there would be an "empty chair" - that image remains strong in my memory of what I took away from the story - we can rationalize a past that's already occurred but if we knew we could change a future by what we do today we might act differently and thus make a different (and in that story a better) past that we will recall in that future.
I have a statement that informs my daily life today which is somewhat similar - it's not an original thought but the way I put it is
"The future has a past. Make it one you will want to remember".
Mostly though it's a story. Doesn't cross my path much so it doesn't bug me one way or the other.
I still sometimes look at things the way you described, perhaps not Christmas Carol, or It's A Wonderful Life, but I get it. The older movie Scrooge frightened me as a kid and I have never seen It's A Wonderful Life all the way through....it is not a part of our traditions. Seems to me, one could take away the message....let your dreams die and just settle. Didn't Jimmy Stewart's character want a different life? I am not too vested, but I see how you draw your conclusions. Maybe ..... don't take it too seriously?
Me, I love Edward Cullen(the undead) and I have watched Harry Potter grow up.....to me it is entertainment.
My son, a lovely Christian and faithful servant, always has a way of putting things in perspective for me.......he quoted on his FB page " There's a war on Christmas. There's also wars in Africa that children are forced into...but, yours sounds pretty serious."
Anyway, Merry Christmas to you and your family.....
Excathedra,
I am so sorry that you are down and troubled. I am sending prayers, love and goodwill your way. May 2012 be the year of your dreams and the beginning of a beautiful trend that takes you through the rest of your days. Merry Christmas.
So sorry Jerry B. It was the cult mentality I was railing against, not you. It is painful to me to see so many precious people isolated from "Christian circles" which to me are part of God's protection plan for His people. Also remember that I became Catholic and it's pervasive non-judgmental acceptance of others.
I mean really non-judgmental. The Catholic woman who lured me into this Catholic thinking only thought nice things of people. I used to think she was really stupid to not be able to criticize people as fluently as me. Now I only try to be more like her because I believe that such cleanness towards others allows them to see and accept or not the Lord on their own first-hand understanding. Which to me is the opposite of what the twi experience developed into as it overstepped and crushed others' free will.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
wonder how Wierwille, Geer, Martindale and company felt about Charles Dickens "A Christmas Carol" seeing that they all were Ebeneezer Scrooge
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skyrider
As a strict-selective-scripture-searcher -- wierwille would NEVER select "A Christmas Carol" as his choice of character....
Wierwille gravitated towards "A White Christmas" where he envisioned himself as the retired general and "his men" would rally to sing his praises.....and follow him anywhere!!
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
can't envision him as Bing Crosby, Fred Asaire,Danny kaye maybe as a clown
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mstar1
Merry Christmas everyone!
As WW pointed out the elevated suicide rate at Christmas is an urban legend.
People may decide to make Christmas into a commercial event and max out their credit cards but imo they really really miss the point.
Here's a very simplified primer on advent and the approach to the Christmas season that should have been taught in TWI but never was...
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/S02KOlw7dlA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
TWI seemed to love the negative approach to darn near everything in its zeal to turn things upside down.
Christmas is a time of spiritual celebration and joy and always has been.
It is typical that they would try to rob followers of that....
I for one love the season and the day
Merry Christmas!
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Remember Wierwille was of the German Reformed tradition, not Lutheran or Moravian, or Episcopalian. Also blue is a legitimate alternate color(Spanish/Mozabic, Swedish, and English practices). Oh Merry Christmas, Froeliche Weinachten, Joyeux Noel, Feliz Navidad, and Buon Natali, and a Happy New Year.
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Kit Sober
I love Christmas because it's one day of the year when the whole world is pretty much on the same page: Jesus Christ is one to be reckoned with. Christians agree the Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings and those that want to destroy Christianity and the name Jesus Christ are focused as well. Jesus Christ is everyone's focus, for good or ill. Dividing the camps so to speak.
Anyway, I received this in Christmas email today. I like this guy's stuff and thought it would fit into this discussion:
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Jbarrax
Merry Christmas Youns guys and gals.
We were involved from '82 to 1990, so I don't remember Craig talking about a Christ massacre. I do remember though when the whole Happy Household holiday thing started. It was at a Sunday Night Service or something when VP said "I'm sick and tired of hearing about a mass for Christ!" Then he launched into a tirade about Christ mas being a derivative of some Roman Catholic tradition and suggested we abandon such polluted verbiage and wish everyone a Happy Household Holiday. I guess he thought it was clever because it kind of rhymed with Ho Ho Ho.
So we did that for a few years, but dropped it as soon as we left TWI and have enjoyed celebrating Christmas ever since. Although being the somewhat judgmental folk that we are, we never included Santa Claus in our celebration. The kids, who were born while we were in, had never been taught that gifts came from Santa and we decided it was a stupid lie and haven't changed our minds about that.
Re. Thomas Loy Bumgarder's question
I actually came here to post a related question. I find myself unable to really enjoy that work because it's based, not on a recognition of the Birth of Christ, but on spiritualism. Scrooge is "redeemed" or converted if you will, by a visitation of apparitions and one dead friend; all of which are, according to TWI teaching, devilish deceptions. I've reconsidered a lot of TWI doctrine, but remain undecided about the whole death/afterlife and demons thing. The content of Dickens' tale is not only not Christ centered, it distinguishes the witness of the spirits from that of the Church. The Ghost of Christmas Present tells Scrooge he has 1,842 brothers. We are lead to believe those are other spirits. At one point he tells Scrooge that the hypocritical deeds of "men of the cloth" are not to be laid to the blame of him and his brothers, and that, as far as he is concerned, those men are strangers.
The underlying message of the story is the Church is corrupt so follow the spirits instead. Sorry, I can't buy that.
I think one of the reasons A Christmas Carol is such a popular movie that gets recycled and replayed so much every year is because it's another example of a man getting his life changed without recognizing Christ, which is what the secular world wants.
(I feel the same way about It's a Wonderful Life, but that's another story)
Okay, stepping down off the soapbox. What do you folks think about this? Am I being too pharisaic? What's wrong with my thinking on this issue?
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excathedra
this is the worst christmas of my life - even including wayfer crap christmases
don't want you to feel sorry for me - i'm just saying it
i pray to god that 2012 will bring me a miracle i needed in 2011 - of course there's a few days left of 2011 - i'll take that too
i need prayers -- not for me -- for someone i love
thanks
it's so difficult not to think you've done something to deserve this pain
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Kit Sober
I think tearing the down of "The Christmas Carol" and "It's a Wonderful Life" (and many of the other nice traditions people and families have developed comes from the same old "steal-kill-destroy" cult mentality which trives by insulting and denigrating anything that doesn't fit with one's opinion.
These two movies and so many traditions like ice skating, fruitcake, Christmas cards, Christmas presents, and other get-togethers during the Advent season bring hearts and souls into harmony with the giving kindness of the Lord, and (I believe) the more that happens, the more people's hearts can be opened to hear the Lord's voice.
Jesus gave parables which left Him as the subject as an unspoken foundation (the birds of the air, the lilies of the field which the Lord watches over and takes care of).
So "The Christmas Carol" could be seen as a parable that one needs to watch how they live today because they will be living in the consequences of those actions in the not-to-distant future, which lesson will be most pertinent when we see the Lord face to face and give an account of how we lived in our earth suits.
And "It's a Wonderful Life" could be seen as a parable to show that the kindness one gives has far-reaching implications for the whole world -- that kindness has a ripple effect such as a pebble tossed into a lake -- and of course the devil wants every Christian to feel isolated, alone, and of no importance so he/she will lose hope and loosen their grip on the hem of His garment.
I think that the arrogance of insulting and the attendant isolation it breeds is a mainstay of cult mentality, and learning to associate with, enjoy, and be friends with others is a vital part of growing in that love of Christ by which His friends are readily known.
It takes very little "in depth perception" to criticize, and it takes kindness from the Lord to have the type of Love with with the Lord lived and lives today in us.
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excathedra
this is the worst christmas of my life - even including wayfer crap christmases
don't want you to feel sorry for me - i'm just saying it
i pray to god that 2012 will bring me a miracle i needed in 2011 - of course there's a few days left of 2011 - i'll take that too
i need prayers -- not for me -- for someone i love
thanks
it's so difficult not to think you've done something to deserve this pain
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Jbarrax
@ excathedra.
Sorry to hear you're feeling blue. :(
I understand. My family is having a heavy Christmas season too.
You pray for us and we'll pray for you.
That wasn't intended to be a poem, it just came out that way.
@ KitSober.
Geez Kit I figured if anyone would agree with me it would be you. So the way you see it, my mind is still infected with a "steal-kill-destroy" cult mentality eh? Thanks for the support. Well, that's what I get for asking. :)
Maybe you're right. I'll give it prayerful consideration.
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socks
Much Merry Christmas to you too!
Hmmmm, "Christmas Carol" - well, the "ghosts" serve as metaphors for the past, present, and future. There is no "Christ" centered message, true. I suppose it means a lot of things to a lot of people. It's been a long time since I read it, frankly I don't think I've ever seen the entire movie of it or if I have which one - there's quite a few versions over the years if my impression is correct.
Much of Christianity believes those who are now dead in the "flesh" are alive in the "spirit" but I took the "ghosts" as metaphors for the self examination a person might do of their own life, reflection, etc.
I don't recall Dickens referencing "men of the cloth" specifically or making a Church versus the "ghosts" moral to be drawn....? Not sure about that but I may not be remembering it correctly.
Upon reflection the Scrooge character recognizes that he can help the Cratchit family and by helping the younger boy he saves his life without which there would be an "empty chair" - that image remains strong in my memory of what I took away from the story - we can rationalize a past that's already occurred but if we knew we could change a future by what we do today we might act differently and thus make a different (and in that story a better) past that we will recall in that future.
I have a statement that informs my daily life today which is somewhat similar - it's not an original thought but the way I put it is
"The future has a past. Make it one you will want to remember".
Mostly though it's a story. Doesn't cross my path much so it doesn't bug me one way or the other.
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geisha779
Jerry,
I still sometimes look at things the way you described, perhaps not Christmas Carol, or It's A Wonderful Life, but I get it. The older movie Scrooge frightened me as a kid and I have never seen It's A Wonderful Life all the way through....it is not a part of our traditions. Seems to me, one could take away the message....let your dreams die and just settle. Didn't Jimmy Stewart's character want a different life? I am not too vested, but I see how you draw your conclusions. Maybe ..... don't take it too seriously?
Me, I love Edward Cullen(the undead) and I have watched Harry Potter grow up.....to me it is entertainment.
My son, a lovely Christian and faithful servant, always has a way of putting things in perspective for me.......he quoted on his FB page " There's a war on Christmas. There's also wars in Africa that children are forced into...but, yours sounds pretty serious."
Anyway, Merry Christmas to you and your family.....
Excathedra,
I am so sorry that you are down and troubled. I am sending prayers, love and goodwill your way. May 2012 be the year of your dreams and the beginning of a beautiful trend that takes you through the rest of your days. Merry Christmas.
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
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Kit Sober
So sorry Jerry B. It was the cult mentality I was railing against, not you. It is painful to me to see so many precious people isolated from "Christian circles" which to me are part of God's protection plan for His people. Also remember that I became Catholic and it's pervasive non-judgmental acceptance of others.
I mean really non-judgmental. The Catholic woman who lured me into this Catholic thinking only thought nice things of people. I used to think she was really stupid to not be able to criticize people as fluently as me. Now I only try to be more like her because I believe that such cleanness towards others allows them to see and accept or not the Lord on their own first-hand understanding. Which to me is the opposite of what the twi experience developed into as it overstepped and crushed others' free will.
Again, Please accept my apology Jerry.
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Jbarrax
Kit. No apology required. I appreciate your honesty. You make very good points.
Merry Christmas and God bless!
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excathedra
thank you
love,e
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