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evil spirits

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i could probably elaborate a bit better if i knew something about which parts you didnt understand, e. but i will try to restate a few things anyway.

im basically stating that i think there are two basic ways we can look at "spirit" experiences: 1) as entities in the universe 2) as aspects of the human psyche.

and that i think there are wide varieties (exotic, like in nature) of both.

and i think both are valid and important.

ive experienced the entities, and ive experienced the powerful voices of the soul.

i feel that the voices of the soul are not only more common, but higher priority for each of us.

any of this help?

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I wrote that I would post some references to things people might find interesting.

The French scientist Jacques Vallee decided to investigate reports of alien encounters from a counter intelligence perspective rather than the perspective of "objective" science. He wrote a series of books including Messengers of Deception: UFO Contactees and Cults (1979), Dimensions: A Casebook of Alien Contact (1988) and Confrontations: A Scientist's Search for Alien Contact (1990).

Here are a couple of pull quotes from Messengers of Deception:

"I propose: that the UFO we see is a device which creates a distortion of the witness's reality; that it does so for a purpose, which is to project images or fabricated scenes designed to change our belief systems; and that the technology we observe is only the incidental support for a worldwide enterprise of 'subliminal seduction'." (p. 19)

"It [the story of alien contact] involves many people with a common characteristic: they have engaged in communication with what they regard as another level of consciousness, above the human level. They believe that they have met the 'Higher Intelligence.' They have acquired an almost fanatical faith in its importance for the future of humanity. They have created a subculture in which psychic phenomena and contact with space are considered everyday occurrences. Then why is their world one of fear and insecurity and suspicion, not a world of love?" (p. 54)

Vallee presents his conclusions in terms of "aliens" instead of "evil spirits", but the motives and methods of the beings are the same. He thinks they are playing a game of bluff, and they have far less real power than they want us to think. Vallee sees that they want to distract us from something, but not having an appreciation for what the gospel is really all about (which, by the way, WE didn't have either in TWI), Vallee has no idea why they are so driven.

John 16:8-11 tells us that the Comforter has come, among other reasons, to convince the world that its ruler has been condemned. It seems to me that the powers of this world are mightily interested in distracting people from that truth.

Another book that influenced my thinking was The Psychic Mafia by M. Lamar Keene (1976). Keene had been a professional psychic medium for a number of years, before quitting that life-style. In his book, Keene exposed the tricks used to swindle the gullible. Judging from what Wierwille taught in the advanced class, either he was pretty gullible himself, or he also was a knowing swindler.

Love,

Steve

Edited by Steve Lortz

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I just came across something that reminded me of something. When Sonny Liston went up against Mohammed Ali, Liston bet heavily against himself and took a dive. People referred to it as "the phantom punch" since Ali didn't actually hit him when he fell. Apparently, it's common knowledge now.

(It came up on "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?")

Naturally, in twi, the thing COULDN'T have a mundane explanation, it HAD to be "evil spirits."

In "who did you hear was born of the wrong seed?" we had this post:

"Muhamud Ali

(He knocked Joe Frazier out without touching him he was soooo seed.)

Dot Matrix"

Broken Arrow, on "Where's the Library?"

"Some of his other "insights" were that Muhammad Ali was born of the seed of the serpent and it was actually a devil spirit that ko'd Sonny Liston in Ali's first title fight (Cassius Clay at the time.)"

Broken Arrow, on "Big Fat (but unsubstantiated) Claims":

"Muhammad Ali was seed (LCM). It was a devil spirit that ko'd Sonny Liston in the title fight. We know this because no one saw the punch that knocked him out."

Steve Lortz had an update...

Actually, LCM recanted this later, saying that MA probably got born again when he was young (in a Christian home). His MANAGER was the "seed boy."

George

George Aar summed it all up , "Who did you hear was born of the wrong seed?"

Actually it was Sonny Liston NOT Joe Frazier that was knocked out by the "phantom" punch of Cascius Clay (later Mohammed Ali).

I guess the idea that Liston took a dive just wasn't spiritual enough to be believed. It HAD to be spiritual didn't it? DIDN'T IT?

(snip)

geo.

twi was-and is- very superstitious and under-educated, especially considering their

claims on always having the inside story on everything.

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It's dem spurrrts, dang nabbit!

Now fork over $450.00 for the advanced class where you can learn all about it!

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In the foundational class on hooky-pook...er... the section of the foundational class on hooky-pook, Dr. (he wasn't really a doctor, you know) Wierwille mentioned "Mr. Fletcher". Anybody familiar with spiritualism would recognize that "Mr. Fletcher" was the "spirit guide" of Arthur Ford. In Psychic Mafia, Keene exposed the deceptive material means Arthur Ford used to fool people. Either Wierwille was taken in, or he knowingly promoted the deceptions of spiritualism.

Speaking of spiritualism, before they decided to present themselves as technologically advanced space aliens in the west, evil spirits presented themselves as spirits of the "dear departed", communicating from the "other side". Nowadays, an interested person can find both brands.

Regarding the "devil spirit" material exhibited at the advanced class, the table usually included a copy of Dungeons & Dragons. The game was co-authored by Dave Arneson, a faithful follower of TWI, who abundantly shared tens of thousands of dollars a year from the sales of D&D to The Way International. The Trustees, including Wierwille himself, were always buddy-buddy with Arneson to his face, inviting him to parties that ordinary believers were not invited to, when they were in town. But they turned around and bad mouthed the game at the advanced class. I suppose, looking back, it was an advanced class in hypocrisy!

Love,

Steve

Edited by Steve Lortz

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Either Wierwille was taken in, or he knowingly promoted the deceptions of spiritualism.

So much for "in-depth spiritual perception and awareness".

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So much for "in-depth spiritual perception and awareness".

Indeed!

Does anybody know why Wierwille was so insistent on calling evil spirits "devil spirits"? I don't think the New Testament does so? I think it usually calls them "demons" or "unclean spirits". Here's a bit of history

My link

Love,

Steve

Edited by Steve Lortz

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thank you, t. so much. i love you. your reply helped me to understand more what you are saying.

--

i never knew that about Dave Arneson

--

i have no idea why he called them devil spirits

i could swear there were posts on that

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I think he called them devil spirits because "demon" sounded too cute... Like when they call kids "little demons.". Doesn't sound cute to me.

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Indeed!

Does anybody know why Wierwille was so insistent on calling evil spirits "devil spirits"? I don't think the New Testament does so? I think it usually calls them "demons" or "unclean spirits". Here's a bit of history

My link

Love,

Steve

He thought "demon" was too wimpy or watered down or..... whatever. That was in the Advanced Class

Pg.16...(A.C. Silly-Bus)

"Daimonion is devil or devil spirit. One or more may do the possessing. This word daimonion is the word that so many translate into english as demon. This in itself is a trick of Satan to translate daimonion as demons because it sounds less evil, less harsh, than devil."

Fast forward to pg. 19

"A born again saved believer may become afflicted with evil spirits."

...............................................................................

So, here we see, merely three pages later, that Wierwille contradicts his own rule by referring to devil spirits as evil spirits. From a literary standpoint, this section does not reflect the voice he previously used.

From this I surmise (IMO) that Wierwille lifted this material from another source and didn't understand it or didn't even bother to "make it his own".

...............................................................................

(I'm still chuckling over his being taken in by Arthur Ford.)

Edited by waysider

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Well, I did some browsing around in Blue Letter Bible. The word "demon" never occurs in the KJV, but then, neither does the phrase "devil spirit". Two words translated "devil": "daimon" and "diabolos". It seems odd that Wierwille, with his supposed adherence to "the originals" would abandon the Biblical Greek use of "daimon" for the 17th century English "devil".

More later...

Love,

Steve

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The word diabolos is an adjective compounded of dia - "through", and ballo - "I throw": or "I throw through". It may have meant something like what we mean when we say we "throw somebody under the bus". Since it was originally an adjective, it meant something like "slanderful". With an article ("the") the adjective becomes substantive and means "accuser".

So, for the most part, the word "devil" in the King James simply means an accuser. The word "spirit" (pneuma) is never directly associated with diabolos, though diabolos seems to be in parallel construction with "Holy Spirit" when Jesus was being tempted in the wilderness. The word is singular except for three places, I Timothy 3:11, II Timothy 3:3 and Titus 2:3, where the text says that Christian women should not be diaboloi, plural. Jesus told the Pharisees that they were OF their father the diabolos, but at the last supper, he said that one of His disciples WAS a diabolos.

There is more biblical evidence for "devils" being human than there is for "devils" being spirits!

Will wonders never cease!?!

Next time, daimon and daimonizomai...

Love,

Steve

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In the foundational class on hooky-pook...er... the section of the foundational class on hooky-pook, Dr. (he wasn't really a doctor, you know) Wierwille mentioned "Mr. Fletcher". Anybody familiar with spiritualism would recognize that "Mr. Fletcher" was the "spirit guide" of Arthur Ford. In Psychic Mafia, Keene exposed the deceptive material means Arthur Ford used to fool people. Either Wierwille was taken in, or he knowingly promoted the deceptions of spiritualism.

Speaking of spiritualism, before they decided to present themselves as technologically advanced space aliens in the west, evil spirits presented themselves as spirits of the "dear departed", communicating from the "other side". Nowadays, an interested person can find both brands.

Regarding the "devil spirit" material exhibited at the advanced class, the table usually included a copy of Dungeons & Dragons. The game was co-authored by Dave Arneson, a faithful follower of TWI, who abundantly shared tens of thousands of dollars a year from the sales of D&D to The Way International. The Trustees, including Wierwille himself, were always buddy-buddy with Arneson to his face, inviting him to parties that ordinary believers were not invited to, when they were in town. But they turned around and bad mouthed the game at the advanced class. I suppose, looking back, it was an advanced class in hypocrisy!

Love,

Steve

vpw talked a good game and regurgitated the works of others, but his recitals exceeded his understanding.

That's how frauds like Arthur Ford fooled him.

In other news, we discussed Dave Arneson before.

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this thread is gettin rich...i was a dungeon master long before i was a twiggie...the original monster manual had entire pantheons of demons (chaotic evil) and devils (lawful evil) but no angels...although it included a few good aligned spirit beings...like sphinxes.

...

one of the last word studies i did before parting with twi was on some KJV NT occurance of "superstition"...something-daimonia in greek...meant "fear of demons" or something

something clicked and i saw the superstition in twi.

nowadays i see the histories of psychology and consciousness in bible stories about demons...so i use various types of meditation, prayer, dreaming practices and jungian shadow-work to illuminate the hidden archetypes of my own soul.

there are notions in hospice education that caregivers ought to prioritize the contemplation of the inner life as a way to make peace with your demons/devils/shadows whatever.

its almost like a complete reversal of superstition...where instead of fighting or fleeing demon enemies, you invite them to dance. we seek a transformation of lead into gold.

likewise with suffering...instead of fighting or fleeing the flames...we learn to walk in the fire.

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T, you and I know each other from "way" back when, so I think you will appreciate this, especially in the context of your last post.

About the time I started really questioning twi (about 3-4 years before I actually left) I started having recurring dreams about a house I used to live in when I was a kid. only it wasn't really any house I had ever lived in when I really stopped and thought about it. It was a huge house, bigger on the inside than on the outside... With sprawling gardens and huge rooms with spiral staircases and stained glass windows - it went on and on. And then I would end up in an old dusty room filled with books. And I would start to get scared... And then the demons would come out of the books and I would wake up terrified. I had this dream almost every night. I tried telling myself to take control of the dream and just not go in the house - that didn't work. I'd end up getting into the house any time I opened a door in a dream.

Since leaving twi, I still have house dreams, but they are happy now. And the books aren't scary anymore.

The house was me, the real me, before I got in the Way, begore my mom even attended her first felllowship. Where I was when I was a child. And the books? All the stuff I had hidden away to make myself a twi-bot.

Now I dream a lot about travelling... Lots of good changes. I'm not scared of being who I am anymore. And it is good.. My demons weren't evil, it was just me the whole time, trying desperately to get free.

Edited by JavaJane

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I don't have time for a long post, but the main thing the devil and his devil spirits do to influence and gain power and control is the same thing the serpent did in the first chapters of Genesis with Eve and then Adam. Whisper lies in people's ears. The devil even tried to do this with Jesus Christ. Of course, Jesus is our example of what to do when we get lies whispered in our ears. Recognize the falseness and ask God for truth to overcome it. And if necessary or if you want to, rebuke the demonic liar in the name of Jesus Christ.

The main things in life don't change. We get voices of truth whispered in our ears and lies whispered in our ears. The voices could come from our own minds with us analyzing information and wisdom. They could come from God and his Son via the gift of holy spirit with God enlightening us and making us smarter and wiser. Or they could come from a liar, a demonic spirit. We need to simply differentiate truth from error, pray to God for enlightenment and reject the lies. And hopefully smile while doing all three.

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Weirwille deceived by lying spirits? The Devil? Superstition? Peeeee-pul. Look at yourselves. We were all in a cult and have we learned nothing? Its ALL superstition, guys. No devils. No spirits. No supernatural. If anything looks like magic, its magician tricks. Nothing more. You can all finally get rid of your fears because there are no bogeymen out to get you. And no angels to help you out either for that matter.

If anyone had told you these things while you were in TWI you wouldn't have listened. You're probably not listening now. But without a shadow of a doubt its all a lie.... Life is good. You can be free of religion and all its fears. Just saying..

sudo

Freedom From Religion Foundation:http://ffrf.org/

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this thread is gettin rich...i was a dungeon master long before i was a twiggie...the original monster manual had entire pantheons of demons (chaotic evil) and devils (lawful evil) but no angels...although it included a few good aligned spirit beings...like sphinxes.

(snip)

When you realize the MONSTER Manual was meant to have things for the player characters

to BEAT UP, the low number of good-aligned "monsters" makes sense.

The MM 2 had more beings that were good-aligned or other (lawful or chaotic)

in addition to animals and evil monsters.

Dragons, from the beginning, were good or evil depending on type.

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When you realize the MONSTER Manual was meant to have things for the player characters

to BEAT UP, the low number of good-aligned "monsters" makes sense.

The MM 2 had more beings that were good-aligned or other (lawful or chaotic)

in addition to animals and evil monsters.

Dragons, from the beginning, were good or evil depending on type.

funny.

many of the kid and adult players i knew picked "chaotic evil" for their character alignment. and many of them actually played that way. "hack and slash"...like many of the popular video games today.

as the game master i liked to play the good aligned monsters to either thwart or help them. the monster manual template even helped me design my own pantheon of angels.

children playing God using game theory...go figure. gee, thanks Asimov and Tolkien.

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T, you and I know each other from "way" back when, so I think you will appreciate this, especially in the context of your last post.

About the time I started really questioning twi (about 3-4 years before I actually left) I started having recurring dreams about a house I used to live in when I was a kid. only it wasn't really any house I had ever lived in when I really stopped and thought about it. It was a huge house, bigger on the inside than on the outside... With sprawling gardens and huge rooms with spiral staircases and stained glass windows - it went on and on. And then I would end up in an old dusty room filled with books. And I would start to get scared... And then the demons would come out of the books and I would wake up terrified. I had this dream almost every night. I tried telling myself to take control of the dream and just not go in the house - that didn't work. I'd end up getting into the house any time I opened a door in a dream.

Since leaving twi, I still have house dreams, but they are happy now. And the books aren't scary anymore.

The house was me, the real me, before I got in the Way, begore my mom even attended her first felllowship. Where I was when I was a child. And the books? All the stuff I had hidden away to make myself a twi-bot.

Now I dream a lot about travelling... Lots of good changes. I'm not scared of being who I am anymore. And it is good.. My demons weren't evil, it was just me the whole time, trying desperately to get free.

yep. yep. yep. :) and thanks for telling. what a beautiful house.

inspired me to riff a sec...

nightmares seem like the most helpful kinds of dreams.

practicing dreaming to engage them more clearly and memorably helps even more. lucid dreaming even more.

like lightning a menorah to illuminate the darkest corners of our house. consciously talking to voices of the self.

wrestling with our shadow is another important kind of dream. like jacob's. "love your enemy."

it is also not uncommon for the body to be telling us about health issues using people and things in dreams.

and dreams only become more and more significant and full as we age. more vivid and meaningful.

Peter said "old men shall dream dreams"...why? had they forgotten or something?

a culture of superstition that fears the arts of dreaming well probably embeds the insanity it claims to heal.

one of the richest legacies of judeo-christian life and history is the dreaming arts.

Edited by sirguessalot

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wow, e. what a gift.

off topic...i suscribe to a board game blog written by an Erik Arneson on about.com. I often wonder if he is related.

Edited by sirguessalot

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