I think when you go outside of "cults" you can say that change of belief happens in every belief system... Most of the people I know who have "walked away from the faith " I guess you could call it. Has not been abandoned or black listed like a cult performs...
The same thing happens when a person who grew up in a non-religious family (Atheist) to a religious belief system (Christian,Muslim,Jew,Hindu..ect). Relationships will change because of the core of the beliefs that someone has effects on many areas of their life.
Unlike The Way in other Christian circles in my experience people are not "black listed".
I would say the similarity is only what the person feels because their world view of life has changed and so now they will naturally relate differently to those who used to be apart of the faith they possess. Unlike in The Way it is not only the feeling of separation just because of a new difference of belief but also those in the group (his old friends) are taught not to associate with the person who committed apostasy. Something that at least all of the churches I have known do not do and should not do.
Interesting link, thanks shortfuse. I know several former priests and nuns, though most of them left without losing what is called faith; they left because the lifestyle was just too weird. Karen Armstrong (a former Catholic nun and a wonderful writer and speaker) has written several interesting books, my favorite being her autobiography titled "The Spiral Staircase: My Climb Out of Darkness". I found it a comforting and illuminating read.
I think the more pathetic examples are perhaps those who no longer *really* believe, are still addicted to praise, support and adulation. Add to this.. some simply do not have the skills to do or inclination to do anything else. No real life skills.. nor the inclination to start at the bottom of the ladder somewhere..
I think the more pathetic examples are perhaps those who no longer *really* believe, are still addicted to praise, support and adulation. Add to this.. some simply do not have the skills to do or inclination to do anything else. No real life skills.. nor the inclination to start at the bottom of the ladder somewhere..
I was going to ask if you'd seen or heard of the documentry Marjoe but it appears to be out of print. Here's a link to the book. He's a perfect example of what you are talking about - and he became just about as dishonest in his ministry as people we know of....except he activly did not try to hurt the people he fed off of.
apparently his PARENTS got him started on this when he was four years old..
maybe not much unlike a certain "young man" who somehow has been "persuaded" by a bunch of old lunatics that he (and gramps) had or have some kind of *ministry* or something..
pretty damned sick.
Got half an education, and still is trapped in the pulpit.
Thanks Shortfuse for the link to this article. I found it very enlightening and helpful.
I too struggled for a while when I was "in" and my beliefs started shifting. I would sit at fellowship or other ministry events and feel so out of place amongst wide-eyed zealots that just repeated the same cliches and mantras over and over. I also felt so alone because I could not express my doubts to anyone. I couldn't talk to someone who was "in" because most would reprove me for not believing correctly. Even if I found another "innie" who had doubts they would always halt at admitting the whole thing was a sham. Of course no one outside of TWI would really understand what my turmoil was all about.
Many things struck me as I read through this, too many to list all at once.
One was
Money
One of the ministers interviewed was shocked when one of his professors said:
“When you get into your own churches, you’ve got to realize that there’s these two things that are important that you’ve got to do: You’ve got to raise money, and you’ve got to recruit members."
Well, at least they were honest and didn't couch it. If only TWI were this honest up front.
The longer you're in the system, the harder it is to get out financially. Here's another quote from the article:
"Why don’t they resign their posts and find a new life? They are caught in a trap, cunningly designed to harness both their best intentions and their basest fears to the task of immobilizing them in their predicament. Their salaries are modest and the economic incentive is to stay in place, to hang on by their fingernails and wait for retirement when they get their pension"
(oops, not an issue with TWI leaders, at least not at the level below "director". And even directors can be forced off the compound if they become too much of a burden [Mrs. VPW]).
“I think I’m doing it now because financially I don’t have a choice. I could quit and go in there today and say today, ‘I’m not coming back.’ But it would cause a huge financial burden on me. I mean, how would I continue to make my house payment and support my family?”
"Pastors who are provided a parsonage to live in are even more tightly bound: they have no equity to use as a springboard to a new house."
(Ding, ding, ding) Keep your leaders from buying a house and you'll keep many of them in bondage. The older they get the more trapped they become. TWI HQ has become an old folks home. Soon many of them will no longer be useful but rather, a burden. Then they will be kicked to the curb. I guess many will have to live with their children, even the children who have left the flock.
Feeling lonely and trapped
Again, from the article:
"The loneliness of non-believing pastors is extreme. They have no trusted confidantes to reassure them, to reflect their own musings back to them, to provide reality checks. As their profiles reveal, even their spouses are often unaware of their turmoil."
Although this may exist in mainstream denominations it is compounded in TWI by the complete ostracizing of the "unbelieving believer" by their family and so-called friends. The threat of losing your family has kept many in TWI from honestly expressing their doubts.
"Confiding their difficulties to a superior is not an appealing option: although it would be unlikely to lead swiftly and directly to an involuntary unfrocking. No denomination has a surplus of qualified clergy, and the last thing an administrator wants to hear is that one of the front line preachers is teetering on the edge of default. More likely, such an acknowledgment of doubt would put them on the list of problematic clergy and secure for them the not very helpful advice to soldier on and work through their crises of faith. Speaking in confidence with fellow clergy is also a course fraught with danger, in spite of the fact that some of them are firmly convinced that many, and perhaps most, of their fellow clergy share their lack of belief."
Which leads to:
Don't Ask, Don't Tell
As noted above: Expressing your doubts may not lead to "involuntary unfrocking"(LOL).
"One can be initiated into a conspiracy without a single word exchanged or secret handshake; all it takes is the dawning realization, beginning in seminary, that you and the others are privy to a secret, and that they know that you know, and you know that they know that you know. This is what is known to philosophers and linguists as mutual knowledge, and it plays a potent role in many social circumstances. Without any explicit agreement, mutual knowledge seals the deal: you then have no right to betray this bond by unilaterally divulging it, or even discussing it."
I think that's where TWI was/is heading. When you've got a surplus of people [which TWI did for a while] 100's of WC and 1000's of believers it's no big deal to throw them out when they stray off only slightly. But as the numbers of believers and leaders decline [and the money they bring in] the more apt TWI leaders are to forgive slight straying. After all, they probably have their own misgivings.
"Circumstances conspire to encourage everyone to cooperate with this arrangement. The bishop, as already noted, is certainly not motivated to expose any doubters or outright atheists among his subordinates."
Sorry this post is so long. The article resonated with me.
Thanks Shortfuse for the link to this article. I found it very enlightening and helpful.
I too struggled for a while when I was "in" and my beliefs started shifting. I would sit at fellowship or other ministry events and feel so out of place amongst wide-eyed zealots that just repeated the same cliches and mantras over and over. I also felt so alone because I could not express my doubts to anyone. I couldn't talk to someone who was "in" because most would reprove me for not believing correctly. Even if I found another "innie" who had doubts they would always halt at admitting the whole thing was a sham. Of course no one outside of TWI would really understand what my turmoil was all about.
Many things struck me as I read through this, too many to list all at once.
One was
Money
One of the ministers interviewed was shocked when one of his professors said:
“When you get into your own churches, you’ve got to realize that there’s these two things that are important that you’ve got to do: You’ve got to raise money, and you’ve got to recruit members."
Well, at least they were honest and didn't couch it. If only TWI were this honest up front.
The longer you're in the system, the harder it is to get out financially. Here's another quote from the article:
"Why don’t they resign their posts and find a new life? They are caught in a trap, cunningly designed to harness both their best intentions and their basest fears to the task of immobilizing them in their predicament. Their salaries are modest and the economic incentive is to stay in place, to hang on by their fingernails and wait for retirement when they get their pension"
(oops, not an issue with TWI leaders, at least not at the level below "director". And even directors can be forced off the compound if they become too much of a burden [Mrs. VPW]).
“I think I’m doing it now because financially I don’t have a choice. I could quit and go in there today and say today, ‘I’m not coming back.’ But it would cause a huge financial burden on me. I mean, how would I continue to make my house payment and support my family?”
"Pastors who are provided a parsonage to live in are even more tightly bound: they have no equity to use as a springboard to a new house."
(Ding, ding, ding) Keep your leaders from buying a house and you'll keep many of them in bondage. The older they get the more trapped they become. TWI HQ has become an old folks home. Soon many of them will no longer be useful but rather, a burden. Then they will be kicked to the curb. I guess many will have to live with their children, even the children who have left the flock.
Feeling lonely and trapped
Again, from the article:
"The loneliness of non-believing pastors is extreme. They have no trusted confidantes to reassure them, to reflect their own musings back to them, to provide reality checks. As their profiles reveal, even their spouses are often unaware of their turmoil."
Although this may exist in mainstream denominations it is compounded in TWI by the complete ostracizing of the "unbelieving believer" by their family and so-called friends. The threat of losing your family has kept many in TWI from honestly expressing their doubts.
"Confiding their difficulties to a superior is not an appealing option: although it would be unlikely to lead swiftly and directly to an involuntary unfrocking. No denomination has a surplus of qualified clergy, and the last thing an administrator wants to hear is that one of the front line preachers is teetering on the edge of default. More likely, such an acknowledgment of doubt would put them on the list of problematic clergy and secure for them the not very helpful advice to soldier on and work through their crises of faith. Speaking in confidence with fellow clergy is also a course fraught with danger, in spite of the fact that some of them are firmly convinced that many, and perhaps most, of their fellow clergy share their lack of belief."
Which leads to:
Don't Ask, Don't Tell
As noted above: Expressing your doubts may not lead to "involuntary unfrocking"(LOL).
"One can be initiated into a conspiracy without a single word exchanged or secret handshake; all it takes is the dawning realization, beginning in seminary, that you and the others are privy to a secret, and that they know that you know, and you know that they know that you know. This is what is known to philosophers and linguists as mutual knowledge, and it plays a potent role in many social circumstances. Without any explicit agreement, mutual knowledge seals the deal: you then have no right to betray this bond by unilaterally divulging it, or even discussing it."
I think that's where TWI was/is heading. When you've got a surplus of people [which TWI did for a while] 100's of WC and 1000's of believers it's no big deal to throw them out when they stray off only slightly. But as the numbers of believers and leaders decline [and the money they bring in] the more apt TWI leaders are to forgive slight straying. After all, they probably have their own misgivings.
"Circumstances conspire to encourage everyone to cooperate with this arrangement. The bishop, as already noted, is certainly not motivated to expose any doubters or outright atheists among his subordinates."
Sorry this post is so long. The article resonated with me.
Yep.....all of the above.
Twi's top-tier are the DOUBTERS......they manipulate and oppress on every turn to twist things to their advantage. Sure, they mouth the scriptures, slogans, cliches, and all.....but their heart is far from the Lord.
In 2000, when martindale was ousted.......6 or 7 region couples BOLTED FROM THE TWI TRAP!!!
"(Ding, ding, ding) Keep your leaders from buying a house and you'll keep many of them in bondage."
When people build equity and financial security.....more options, more freedom is in front of them. And, with each step forward the opportunities for success compound. New contacts, new ideas, new investments in the american free market can lead to a series of successes that leave debt and bondage in a world forgotten.
Yeah.....I think twi instilled their "debt policy" to the detriment of followers.
What a difference life is today....rather than trapped in the corps pit.
They chose to push legalism to keep followers in bondage, and thus, from leaving.
Is there any wonder why corps enrollment is at a pittance of 6 or 7 each year?
Nope.....not from what I've observed and experienced. Wierwille set the trap
"One can be initiated into a conspiracy without a single word exchanged or secret handshake; all it takes is the dawning realization, beginning in seminary, that you and the others are privy to a secret, and that they know that you know, and you know that they know that you know."
Or.....after corps graduation, you and the others are privy to the twi-deception. When the corps application stated a "lifetime of Christian service" what they really meant was a lifetime of TWI service. If you show or voice a hint of discontent in leaving, then they bring pressure to bear in your life.
In such a setup, the decision-makers have unparalleled control over your life. Perhaps, they'll send you to Mississippi to oversee a growing twig (4 people)....or something. What? Where's your believing? You don't want to go? You're stubbornness is as witchcraft saith the directors! If you keep this up.....you WILL be called out on corps night.
Twi relishes in favors for their friends.....hardship for their corps enemies. It's a game of picking winners and losers.
Jump when they say jump. It's the Way's way of doing things.
Blacklisting gives twi the illusion of fighting an adversary.
"One can be initiated into a conspiracy without a single word exchanged or secret handshake; all it takes is the dawning realization, beginning in seminary, that you and the others are privy to a secret, and that they know that you know, and you know that they know that you know."
Or.....after corps graduation, you and the others are privy to the twi-deception. When the corps application stated a "lifetime of Christian service" what they really meant was a lifetime of TWI service. If you show or voice a hint of discontent in leaving, then they bring pressure to bear in your life.
In such a setup, the decision-makers have unparalleled control over your life. Perhaps, they'll send you to Mississippi to oversee a growing twig (4 people)....or something. What? Where's your believing? You don't want to go? You're stubbornness is as witchcraft saith the directors! If you keep this up.....you WILL be called out on corps night.
Twi relishes in favors for their friends.....hardship for their corps enemies. It's a game of picking winners and losers.
Jump when they say jump. It's the Way's way of doing things.
Blacklisting gives twi the illusion of fighting an adversary.
That is why it was/is doomed to fail.If anything God is a rewarder who diligently seek him.Hmm..twi is/was seeking somthing else..........
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Naten00
I think when you go outside of "cults" you can say that change of belief happens in every belief system... Most of the people I know who have "walked away from the faith " I guess you could call it. Has not been abandoned or black listed like a cult performs...
The same thing happens when a person who grew up in a non-religious family (Atheist) to a religious belief system (Christian,Muslim,Jew,Hindu..ect). Relationships will change because of the core of the beliefs that someone has effects on many areas of their life.
Unlike The Way in other Christian circles in my experience people are not "black listed".
I would say the similarity is only what the person feels because their world view of life has changed and so now they will naturally relate differently to those who used to be apart of the faith they possess. Unlike in The Way it is not only the feeling of separation just because of a new difference of belief but also those in the group (his old friends) are taught not to associate with the person who committed apostasy. Something that at least all of the churches I have known do not do and should not do.
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waysider
You could always do what VPW did....start an MLM and drown any remorse in free flowing booze.
(But I don't recommend it.)
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OperaBuff
Interesting link, thanks shortfuse. I know several former priests and nuns, though most of them left without losing what is called faith; they left because the lifestyle was just too weird. Karen Armstrong (a former Catholic nun and a wonderful writer and speaker) has written several interesting books, my favorite being her autobiography titled "The Spiral Staircase: My Climb Out of Darkness". I found it a comforting and illuminating read.
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Ham
I think the more pathetic examples are perhaps those who no longer *really* believe, are still addicted to praise, support and adulation. Add to this.. some simply do not have the skills to do or inclination to do anything else. No real life skills.. nor the inclination to start at the bottom of the ladder somewhere..
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Keith
I was going to ask if you'd seen or heard of the documentry Marjoe but it appears to be out of print. Here's a link to the book. He's a perfect example of what you are talking about - and he became just about as dishonest in his ministry as people we know of....except he activly did not try to hurt the people he fed off of.
http://www.amazon.com/MAJOE-The-Life-Marjoe-Gortner/dp/B002SQY7VM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336084238&sr=8-1
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Ham
Interesting..
I looked up the Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe_Gortner
apparently his PARENTS got him started on this when he was four years old..
maybe not much unlike a certain "young man" who somehow has been "persuaded" by a bunch of old lunatics that he (and gramps) had or have some kind of *ministry* or something..
pretty damned sick.
Got half an education, and still is trapped in the pulpit.
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PatAnswer
Thanks Shortfuse for the link to this article. I found it very enlightening and helpful.
I too struggled for a while when I was "in" and my beliefs started shifting. I would sit at fellowship or other ministry events and feel so out of place amongst wide-eyed zealots that just repeated the same cliches and mantras over and over. I also felt so alone because I could not express my doubts to anyone. I couldn't talk to someone who was "in" because most would reprove me for not believing correctly. Even if I found another "innie" who had doubts they would always halt at admitting the whole thing was a sham. Of course no one outside of TWI would really understand what my turmoil was all about.
Many things struck me as I read through this, too many to list all at once.
One was
Money
One of the ministers interviewed was shocked when one of his professors said:
“When you get into your own churches, you’ve got to realize that there’s these two things that are important that you’ve got to do: You’ve got to raise money, and you’ve got to recruit members."
Well, at least they were honest and didn't couch it. If only TWI were this honest up front.
The longer you're in the system, the harder it is to get out financially. Here's another quote from the article:
"Why don’t they resign their posts and find a new life? They are caught in a trap, cunningly designed to harness both their best intentions and their basest fears to the task of immobilizing them in their predicament. Their salaries are modest and the economic incentive is to stay in place, to hang on by their fingernails and wait for retirement when they get their pension"
(oops, not an issue with TWI leaders, at least not at the level below "director". And even directors can be forced off the compound if they become too much of a burden
[Mrs. VPW]).
“I think I’m doing it now because financially I don’t have a choice. I could quit and go in there today and say today, ‘I’m not coming back.’ But it would cause a huge financial burden on me. I mean, how would I continue to make my house payment and support my family?”
"Pastors who are provided a parsonage to live in are even more tightly bound: they have no equity to use as a springboard to a new house."
(Ding, ding, ding) Keep your leaders from buying a house and you'll keep many of them in bondage. The older they get the more trapped they become. TWI HQ has become an old folks home. Soon many of them will no longer be useful but rather, a burden. Then they will be kicked to the curb. I guess many will have to live with their children, even the children who have left the flock.
Feeling lonely and trapped
Again, from the article:
"The loneliness of non-believing pastors is extreme. They have no trusted confidantes to reassure them, to reflect their own musings back to them, to provide reality checks. As their profiles reveal, even their spouses are often unaware of their turmoil."
Although this may exist in mainstream denominations it is compounded in TWI by the complete ostracizing of the "unbelieving believer" by their family and so-called friends. The threat of losing your family has kept many in TWI from honestly expressing their doubts.
"Confiding their difficulties to a superior is not an appealing option: although it would be unlikely to lead swiftly and directly to an involuntary unfrocking. No denomination has a surplus of qualified clergy, and the last thing an administrator wants to hear is that one of the front line preachers is teetering on the edge of default. More likely, such an acknowledgment of doubt would put them on the list of problematic clergy and secure for them the not very helpful advice to soldier on and work through their crises of faith. Speaking in confidence with fellow clergy is also a course fraught with danger, in spite of the fact that some of them are firmly convinced that many, and perhaps most, of their fellow clergy share their lack of belief."
Which leads to:
Don't Ask, Don't Tell
As noted above: Expressing your doubts may not lead to "involuntary unfrocking"(LOL).
"One can be initiated into a conspiracy without a single word exchanged or secret handshake; all it takes is the dawning realization, beginning in seminary, that you and the others are privy to a secret, and that they know that you know, and you know that they know that you know. This is what is known to philosophers and linguists as mutual knowledge, and it plays a potent role in many social circumstances. Without any explicit agreement, mutual knowledge seals the deal: you then have no right to betray this bond by unilaterally divulging it, or even discussing it."
I think that's where TWI was/is heading. When you've got a surplus of people [which TWI did for a while] 100's of WC and 1000's of believers it's no big deal to throw them out when they stray off only slightly. But as the numbers of believers and leaders decline [and the money they bring in] the more apt TWI leaders are to forgive slight straying. After all, they probably have their own misgivings.
"Circumstances conspire to encourage everyone to cooperate with this arrangement. The bishop, as already noted, is certainly not motivated to expose any doubters or outright atheists among his subordinates."
Sorry this post is so long. The article resonated with me.
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skyrider
Yep.....all of the above.
Twi's top-tier are the DOUBTERS......they manipulate and oppress on every turn to twist things to their advantage. Sure, they mouth the scriptures, slogans, cliches, and all.....but their heart is far from the Lord.
In 2000, when martindale was ousted.......6 or 7 region couples BOLTED FROM THE TWI TRAP!!!
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excathedra
just get out of whatever you're in if they make you feel like crap or sexuallly assault you or live double standards
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skyrider
"(Ding, ding, ding) Keep your leaders from buying a house and you'll keep many of them in bondage."
When people build equity and financial security.....more options, more freedom is in front of them. And, with each step forward the opportunities for success compound. New contacts, new ideas, new investments in the american free market can lead to a series of successes that leave debt and bondage in a world forgotten.
Yeah.....I think twi instilled their "debt policy" to the detriment of followers.
What a difference life is today....rather than trapped in the corps pit.
They chose to push legalism to keep followers in bondage, and thus, from leaving.
Is there any wonder why corps enrollment is at a pittance of 6 or 7 each year?
Nope.....not from what I've observed and experienced. Wierwille set the trap
that HE SO DESPERATELY FOUGHT TO GET OUT OF.
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skyrider
"One can be initiated into a conspiracy without a single word exchanged or secret handshake; all it takes is the dawning realization, beginning in seminary, that you and the others are privy to a secret, and that they know that you know, and you know that they know that you know."
Or.....after corps graduation, you and the others are privy to the twi-deception. When the corps application stated a "lifetime of Christian service" what they really meant was a lifetime of TWI service. If you show or voice a hint of discontent in leaving, then they bring pressure to bear in your life.
In such a setup, the decision-makers have unparalleled control over your life. Perhaps, they'll send you to Mississippi to oversee a growing twig (4 people)....or something. What? Where's your believing? You don't want to go? You're stubbornness is as witchcraft saith the directors! If you keep this up.....you WILL be called out on corps night.
Twi relishes in favors for their friends.....hardship for their corps enemies. It's a game of picking winners and losers.
Jump when they say jump. It's the Way's way of doing things.
Blacklisting gives twi the illusion of fighting an adversary.
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frank123lol
That is why it was/is doomed to fail.If anything God is a rewarder who diligently seek him.Hmm..twi is/was seeking somthing else..........
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