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John Alexander Dowie

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Has anyone here ever followed or explored the exploits of this man? He was a huge factor in the Life of John G Lake who was part of so many healing miracles in the early part of the 20th century.

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On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 4:31 AM, jim jack said:

Has anyone here ever followed or explored the exploits of this man? He was a huge factor in the Life of John G Lake who was part of so many healing miracles in the early part of the 20th century.

So... why all the concern and so much focus on healing, or "healing miracles"?  Have you ever stopped yourself, and very carefully (and honestly) thought that question through?

Given the nature and tone of so many of your postings here, I doubt it.  Maybe you haven't (or can't) because it's simply beyond your own knowledge and understanding of various signs and miracles that are recorded in the scriptures.   But, rather than rain too much or too hard on your parade here... maybe I better just leave it at that.   And if you can eventually figure it out, then great.  But if not... well, it'll all wash out in the end.  So what if healings and miracles make a few things in this (temporal) life easier and/or more pleasant.  If that's all what it's about... why be so impressed by it?  Who or what does it draw attention to?

However, I'll leave you with these few little thoughts.  THIS life (in the flesh, that we have now) was really never intended to be "forever." And if you believe that, then is it so difficult to also believe that maybe... just maybe... all that really matters is how anything and everything in this life might or can (and does) best prepare us for our (eternal) life that is yet to come?  Israel (the best of the best of all humanity) experienced more (genuine) signs, miracles, and wonders than you can shake a stick at.  Yet, think carefully what it did (moreover, what it didn't) do for them, on a lasting (or eternal) basis.  And we're not talking about fake stuff or quackery.  Those were "the real deal." Yet, in the much larger and broader scope of things, seems it didn't much matter.  And God Almighty knows that, too. 

 

 

Edited by TLC

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I think a discussion of "why healings and miracles" and/or why not could make for an interesting discussion in Doctrinal.   (That's no guarantee it WOULD, but it might make for one.)

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1 hour ago, WordWolf said:

I think a discussion of "why healings and miracles" and/or why not could make for an interesting discussion in Doctrinal.   (That's no guarantee it WOULD, but it might make for one.)

Agreed... though I've already tipped my hand as to my perspective on the matter.  Feel free to have my previous post moved to doctrinal if there is any continued discussion or interest in doing so. 

Edited by TLC

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TLC...good question...I'd answer in this manner...Jesus said" the things that I do, ye shall do also & greater" some would respond.."well that was/is Jesus" who do you think YOU are anyway". I've been enthralled by several really descent teachings on this subject...not entirely on healing..but healing tends to follow alot of other subjects that I've studied....like renewing one's mind and our identity in Christ. I'm not absorbed by it,..but I do enjoy ministering to people & love to watch how they respond when their bodies do change for the better...wayfers were taught about "signs & wonders follow those who believe..." if one doesn't believe..I don't think much in the physical rehlm will show up or change..most only hope but won't  learn a few principles that might be life changing...but  when we do step out in faith,,,,,great things potentially can & many times do happen.

John G Lake had constant invalids in his family including himself...Dowie according to Lake showed him where he was missing it & from that point on..got totally delivered & practice it on others..so yeh I'm interested  as I do my best to help people & many times offering healing really makes a difference..especially if they've been tormented many many years.. Faith w/out works is dead..we learn & don't  do anything but KNOW what is taught.I think the aim of education IS action..so in being a doer of the word & not a hearer only deceiving myself is one of my many daily goals..so that I won't be deceiving myself.

 

thanks for the question as its a good un..LOL

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1 hour ago, jim jack said:

Jesus said" the things that I do, ye shall do also & greater"

Do you understand that His ministry was to Israel (not to the Gentiles) and that those words were spoken to those (of Israel) that were with him that day?  see Matt. 10:5; Rom. 15:8.

1 hour ago, jim jack said:

wayfers were taught about "signs & wonders follow those who believe..."

Aside from Mark 16:17 (which, once again, appears to be specifically given only to Israel), what scriptural references or basis, if any, might you have for that being suitable or applicable to the church of the body that Paul ushered in? Just because that was said or taught in twi doesn't make or mean it's true. 

1 hour ago, jim jack said:

Faith w/out works is dead..

So says... James? Ah, ha.  Another of the Israelites, and a rather obvious adherent to the law.  Faith without works is dead, is it?

Why adulterate or otherwise (in any way) frustrate the grace of God?  It's clearly and plainly written that faith is counted for righteousness (Rom. 4:5), and no where in the church epistles does it require some sort of activation or proof or validation by "works" in order for it to be genuine and real.

Perhaps you think that little statement from James and the Pauline doctrines of grace are symbiotic, and can peacefully cohabit the same space in your mind.  Well, they aren't... and they don't.  Though they may not be diametrically opposed, fight against each other they will, and do.  And unless (and/or until) you grasp and understand that subtle difference between the two, I suspect it would be (probably is) virtually impossible not to boast a little (in one way or another) of whatever works result from your own (or anyone else's) believing.  Or, on the other hand,  pass a bit of judgment and/or reproof (i.e., condemnation) upon oneself (or others) when "it ain't there."  

Maybe you've never seen or heard of anyone (or yourself) give witness to or carry on about what a great job (or great failure) of believing happened or took place somewhere.  But, I doubt that too, if you really want to be honest about it.  Yeah, take the blame for it yourself when it fails... but at least "mouth" the praises to God when it does works.  Think you do one half of that only, but not the other? Really?  So easy it is to pretend, and deceive ourselves.     

 

 

 

Edited by TLC

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well...let me know where it does end up k?? as I'm never too sure where & what category to put things in...so thank you for getting it right for the others as well who may have an interest

 

TLC..So what you're saying is that Israel who Jesus had obviously "come for" & not the gentiles ..are the only ones that can operate one of the nine manifestations in l Co 12 (Miracles)? If wso ..when I daily operate tongues..it them must be counterfiet, as I'm a gentile (non Jew)

 

John G Lake and all the Wigglesworths/Kulmans/Todd White/Dan Mohler and all the others..... must be Judeans to be privy to this OR is God NOT a respector of persons and all may freely partake of these nine manifestations..

 

I think God's viewpoint of this is for all those who believe on Jesus can walk in the fullness of what he says is available & obviously we can choose not to and just remain doubtful & never see the results if we HAD reached out in love for the sake of the other..this is really all about truly loving our neighbor..a person with illness..tormented by disease and such is not what God wants for them, as Jesus came to set the captives free & we're the ones here to minister NOW with his power doing the work..we're the "conduit" of God's power into the sick & infirm.

Maybe this doesn't sound like tWI teaching to you & I'm saying it isn't..they "initiated it" back 40 years ago & from this other ministry..I've learned much & seen it up close..deliverances left & right just as the Bibles prophesises in the latter times..go on youtube..look up divine healing..you'll see many street healers who lay hands on the sick & they video their recoveries..(for our edification) This is exciting & we were introduced to this but seldom saw the actual happening of it while in TWI (at least I know I didn't & most others I personally know of didn't either) Do you ever recall any teaching from VP of having gone out & offer healing & he give a teaching about it/? NO never...just the man with the withered arm in PFAL..I think thats all I ever heard about..none other..ever ever..LOL..thanks for your honesty in demanding to know where I stand in all this. I apppreciate it.

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It is clear that this  thread has become more oriented to the Doctrinal forum so consider it moved.

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On 2/16/2019 at 8:43 AM, jim jack said:

TLC..So what you're saying is that Israel who Jesus had obviously "come for" & not the gentiles ..are the only ones that can operate one of the nine manifestations in l Co 12 (Miracles)?

Evidently you're still having difficulty making any sort of distinction between the gospel of the Kingdom, which Jesus and the 12 preached, and the gospel of grace, which Paul taught.

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the good news of the kingdom is that Jesus came to set the captives free...how is this different from what Paul preached in the epistles?

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On 2/17/2019 at 12:41 PM, TLC said:

Evidently you're still having difficulty making any sort of distinction between the gospel of the Kingdom, which Jesus and the 12 preached, and the gospel of grace, which Paul taught.

I thought grace and truth came through Jesus Christ? John 1:17

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On 2/17/2019 at 11:15 AM, jim jack said:

the good news of the kingdom is that Jesus came to set the captives free...how is this different from what Paul preached in the epistles?

Well, if you (or anyone else reading this) honestly want a serious answer to what those two gospels are (and some comparisons between them), then I think this old farmer's explanation of it (from scripture) actually does it in a way that is about as clear and simple as I could find in a relatively short amount of time searching the Internet:

 

Edited by TLC

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tlc..hey an interesting "take" from "LF"..I've seen him on TV a few times as he usually makes alot of credible points & I appreciate you recomending me watch this (& others of course)..I think I realize what you're both saying..the concept of "works" being involved in salvation vs it being a fee gift from God via Jesus's sacrafice & God raising him from the grave..I think TWI made this very clear in a way, in that alot of what they taught contrary to orthodox  religion  (ie water baptism/SIT/ 9 manifestations/etc)..much if not all are "works of the flesh"..one gets "saved" and the "tools" are within us..holy spirit..which we then can "operate" the manifestations etc.. In utilizing the spirit within me..I'm not after "getting a ticket into heaven".. that has already been accomplished with nothing for me to do in that regard on my part except to accept it as a done deal & move onward & upward with wonderful "works" we then can do. Why? Why SIT Why study? why go after more knowlege & wisdom? To "get me to heaven..." or is it to help me be more confident in what God has & is providing? & thus a brighter light before men to shine into their darkened hearts?

 

One prays and we see our prayers answered..why? we prayed & God is faithful..looks like works (prayer)..but God says "pray & watch what I'll work in you for yours & others sakes" He says love & render not evil for evil, like the world reccomends we do (retaliation). & watch how those heaps of coals on their heads will help them know the love of God thru you & I. I lay hands on the sick and they shall recover..is the promise.. why? For my sake..no (although I'll be blessed when a healing happens) but for their sakes to draw them closer to God & all he has for them

Faith w/out works is dead right? (James)we learn great truths & never do the works of what we learn..and we have an emptiness in us having NOT walked out on the limb to see if God will provide the power behind our words & actions....the aim of education is Action..we learn/we act on it/we see results/we therefore are growing because we did something instead of nothing. Doing nothing is typical, but not for me personally..I'd rather learn/try & be amazed!!

when I first attended PFAL & completed it..I felt at the time I had something concise to offer others..before it was just "steer them to my church"..but this appeared to be even more insightful than the church was showing me.. (anything at that time was better than the ritualistic church I was attending)...did people want what I had experienced??Couldn't really know unless I got their $$ & got them "into the class" some of what we were taught was wrong..I get that..but it did introduce to me the idea of there being more to Christianity than my former church & this was pretty exciting..sadly.. wrong doctrine is destructive...which we either learned the hard way or not..

 

 

so yeh there's work to be done..for the sake of the other..is it about me getting rewarded for it? If thats the case then you're making it about you & not the other..God will reward our faithfulness...but to really care about people is what I want to be about in my life.

 

 

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As jim jack has stated.

Quote

but to really care about people is what I want to be about in my life.

And this was and is the primary emphasis as stated by Jesus Christ.  

In further developing our godly fruit what did Jesus say about the greatest law or commandment?

Matt 22:36-40 
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." NKJV

And just who is our neighbor according to Jesus Christ? Is our neighbor only our fellow country men? Or is he or she only of the same race or religion that we are? Is our neighbor only some one that we go to church or school with? Jesus answers this question clearly in his parable written in Luke 10:25-37. When a person knowledgeable of the law asked Jesus, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered him with a question relating to the man's own understanding, "What is written in the law?" In verse 27, he answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." But the man had another question, and asked in verse 29, "And who is my neighbor?"

In replying, Jesus gave his explanation using a parable (figurative story), beginning in verse 30,

Luke 10:30-36 
30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' 36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" NIV

So using today's language and scenario we have a lawyer asking Jesus Christ, "who is the neighbor that I should see as an example of godly love?" And Jesus tells him about a man that recently got beaten senseless with all his money stolen and then tossed on a curb inside a city near a church. Then the local church leaders and those with the lofty title reverend all pass him by and don't help him even though they see his condition and that he is literally dying. But then a common person from a neighboring city traveling through, who just happens to be from a family with a mixture of Jewish and Moslem family members as soon as he sees the man and his condition takes pity on him and does everything he can to help him. (If you know biblical history you know that the Samaritans of Jesus' day were a mixture of Assyrian and Jewish descendents.) The traveler immediately runs to the local drug store and buys bandages and cleaning and sterilization ointment. Then runs back to where the man is lying, thoroughly cleans all his wounds and wraps bandages with first aid antibiotic cream around them. Then lifts him into his car and drives him to the nearest hospital. Then stays with him until he gets medical help. Then tells the doctors and staff to do what ever it takes for this man to recover fully and that he will pay all the hospital and doctor bills.

Then Jesus asks the lawyer, "which of the people that I have just described was a good neighbor to the man who got robbed and beaten?" The legally knowledgeable lawyer then answered, "the traveler from out of town who had mercy on him." Then Jesus told the inquisitive lawyer, "that is the example that you should follow and in doing this you should push aside any race, ethnic or religious prejudice that you might have."

If you have not yet come to this realization. How does this parable tie in with the questions that the lawyer asked, namely,"what must I do to inherit eternal life?" and "who is my neighbor?" In answering these questions Jesus stressed the importance of godly fruit and specifically in showing compassion and mercy to all people regardless of race, ethnicity and religious persuasion. This is realized because in Jesus' days on earth the Samaritans were looked down on and often outright scorned by Jesus' fellow countrymen mostly because they were a mixture of Jewish, Assyrian and other descendants. The city of Samaria was part of the nation of Israel, but the blood of the people there had been diluted by people of different races and their religious beliefs had been changed also. Ancient historical information on this is seen in 2 Kings 17 and this is clearly stated in 2 Kings 17:24. Today we have similar circumstances. All over the world today we have people from different countries, ethnicities and religious groups that according to Jesus' teachings and earthly example, we should have compassion on, especially if they too showed compassion to their fellow man. Jesus was never a divider of mankind. He was always a uniter. Jesus even said to "love your enemies".

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Alexander_Dowie

After reading the above link it looks like John Alexander Dowie was nothing special for miracles or serving God or his son Jesus Christ. As an example, he was promoted or promoted himself for doing healings, yet he died at the age of 59, which is below average. You would think that if he would believe for other people's healings that he would be able to believe for his own healing. Also it looks like Dowie promoted himself more than he promoted Jesus Christ. As an example, there is no usage of the word Jesus or the word Christ in this article. And it has a graphic image of him in a costume as part of this article. Perhaps he wanted people to worship himself. And the only two usages of the word "God" is part of the phrase "God's Messenger" and the other usage is the following, He emphasized faith in God, "entire consecration", and holiness. "The word consecration means the action of making or declaring something, typically a church, sacred." From this it looks like instead of promoting Jesus Christ, he promoted a church or churches that he started

After reading the above link it looks like jim jack is more of a follower of Jesus Christ than John Alexander Dowie was. 

 

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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yeh Mark the life expendecy back at the turn of the century was much lower than now a days..yet that's way too young to die..I agree..

John G Lake found  that commanding the demonic off of people was a huge key to his own deliverance(which he learned from Dowie), thus utilized that for the sake of others while still promoting Jesus Christ and his grace & mercy in our lives & positive results followed...Blake in teaching this same mind set now, encourages people to rise up & lay hands on the sick,,..despite having sin in our lives & that God will deal with us (in terms of our own personal "sins"..but not to allow that to hinder us in reaching out to others)..since we are a "forgiven people"...we can walk out what God has promised & in that process...see great transformation in our lives from "sinner to son"....helps us in "cleaning up our acts"up, while we faithfully do minister to others (not making it all about ourselves.)

 

Yes the Dowies & Lakes needed the transformation thru Jesus Christ, just as we do today...Gd will work with us while we're being conformed to the image of Christ! Whew..what a concept..Satan will try & get us to get "hung up" on our deficiencies but God is greater than that in how he'd like us to see it.  Pretty "cool system" if you ask me..LOL..at times I too fail..but am able to repent and ask the Lord to help me do better next go-round..especially when I do hurt the other instead of help, in my attempt to love my neighbor. "Ain't perfect" but I like the direction I've chosen to go.

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Interesting article..as I knew a bit of this..not a perfect man...thats for sure...but it sure stirred alot of people way back when & out of it came some amazing results & encouragements. Ethics is always at the center of one's "ministry" (hopefully) & this man had questionable ethics from what I read..Thankfully God dealt with him.

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