Names of days are arbitrary; in fact, most days are named after pagan gods. When a named day falls is arbitrary.
If you're going to get really precise, you have to count the 7th day from the original first "day of rest." Don't envy you that task.
Please have a little more respect for people here. You have knocked some very thoughtful people. We have reached our current views after long heart-searching, after sometimes painful journeys out of the bullying and dogmatic approach of TWI. No-one here needs anyone else to try to order us to think in a particular way. By all means, present your argument - for discussion, not for dogma or doctrine.
I know you are passionate to understand God and to do your best. Please accept that others are, also, and we are all at different places of our understanding of God. Do what's right for you, now.
Point taken- I probably have to re word things so it comes across as a discussion rather than doctrine that should be accepted
Sorry to all if I gave you the wrong impression
Something to consider Twinky
The names of days may have been arbitrary and it maybe named after pagan gods but right from the beginning the sabbath has
been observed and has been passed through the generations.
Otherwise why would God say"remember to keep the sabbath" even before it's introduced
The Jews have got a lot of their own man made traditions as in the pharisees - hundreds of complicated rules
which God never told them to do and they observed the sabbath with the wrong heart- they were strict in their observance and the one thing they could never be
fauted on is observing the weekly 7th day sabbath- which God commanded them to do
using the calculated hebrew calendar- it's very accurate.
God gave them the calendar and God should know because he created time, days and seasons
the day we call saturday has been calculated as
the 7th day- I know there were the introduction of the gregorian (modern day calendar) but the jews re adjusted
it to ensure that it was always the 7th day that they observe the sabbath
In Exodus 20- even before the ten commandments was officially given in written tablets
God is saying remember to keep the sabbath- so it was not something new to them, the knowledge
of when to keep it has been passed right down from Adam & Eve where the word of God was written in the stars
I am not judging- what makes you think I am judging?
I only discern what is right and wrong by comparing it with the rightly divided word of God
If i am proven wrong going by the word of God-rightly divided (of course! vw took everyone for a ride)
then I am humble enough to learn from it and accept it. There maybe things that no one knows for sure
until they are in the kingdom of God meeting Jesus Christ face to face
you've made reference to " the rightly divided word of God" a few times in this discussion - I was wondering if you could break that down - would you please define that.
you've made reference to " the rightly divided word of God" a few times in this discussion - I was wondering if you could break that down - would you please define that.
When i say "rightly divided word of God, I am referring to the truth in God's word
that does not have contradictions
and it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scrptures
The so called Word has lots and lots of contradictions that oftentimes don't fit harmoniously with the rest of the scriptures, no matter how you slice or dice them. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Not everything always fits like a hand in a glove, with mathematical accuracy and scientific precision.
VW in disregarding the seventh day sabbath of Exodus 20: 8-11 is using
Romans 14:5 as an excuse- pulling it out of context and iplies that it doesnt matter which day of the week
that God has designated as a sabbath for rest, worship, teaching and fellowship. Every man can decide
which day of the week he wants to come to fellowship.
If that's the case why does the twigs, branches, limbs always automatically meet on a sunday
Since when can man decide which day he wants to honour God's designated sabbath
Folks, if you go back in history- in the early christian churches of God, there was no such thing as a sunday
service, they always honoured the 7th day Sabbath i.e Saturday
In fact for 400 years from the time of the early christian history, there was no such as a sunday gathering
Read Acts 13:42
So where does the sunday(1st day of the week) exactly the opposite of what God has ordained originate from
Read below attachement "Romes Challenge to the Protestants"
VW is going against what ihe teaches about having the right context in order to rightly divide the word
He goes into such detail about proving something relativelwy insignificant as in 4 crucified but when it comes to the very
important sabbath which is part of the ten commandments given by God to Moses, he just glosses it over with a scripture
taken out of context.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor
thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: w
wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Let's examine the scripture that vw used in over riding the 7th day sabbath
Hi - here's my thoughts on the topic - going back to Acts 15 and the first Church "Council" of Jerusalem the leaders that met in Jerusalem discussed the expansion of the church to Gentiles, and exactly what their obligations and responsibilities were in the faith. They very deliberately carved out a place for them that did not include the circumcision nor the vast array of Mosaic laws.
As to the circumcision it now makes much clearer sense than it might have to those Jews living at that time - circumcision identifies the circumcised with Israel. Salvation in Christ identifies the saved with Jesus Christ, where circumcision is truly "of the heart".
That council's decision was to minimize the obligations of the Gentiles to the earliest and arguably simplest and broadest commandments of God to mankind, while letting them know that "Moses" was held forth and taught in ample supply for them to learn, should they wish to. So there's clearly - very clearly a difference being set forth between being subject to the law, "under it" and the encouragement to them of simply studying it and learning from it. (and Christ as the fulfillment of the Law for salvation applies to all)
And we see throughout the New Testament writings this difference being clarified for ALL the members of the church, both Jew and Gentile - that the Law isn't a thing we can pick and choose from to keep some parts of it and not others in relation to our faith in Jesus Christ - if we keep some of it for the sake of righteousness, we are obligated to keep ALL of it and in so doing, we will negate the salvation of Christ, by grace. SO the net result of it all is simple - learning the law of Moses would have value to God's people, as both history and an understanding of God's relationship with His people but as we enter the faith, in the Church, we are no longer Jew OR Gentile, but new people in Christ and as such have this "token" of life today as the sigh of the totality of our new and future lives in eternity.
This all filters down to mean less emphasis on the rites and rituals that symbolize our relationship with God and instead living a new life of total immersion, complete relationship, 24X7, forever. We're no longer limited to one day a week or a few hours in a week of communal time with our Father, we are living it and therefore any observations, rituals and traditions have to reflect that new sense of reality as part of it.
The Sabbath is therefore less a matter of Sunday or Saturday, regardless of how you want to decide the day. The idea of following that pattern of devotion towards God is the important aspect of it, that in our physical lives in this day and age we set aside a time to God, to honor Him and this life keeping it mind that we are under a far greater obligation to give honor to God in everything we do, at all times, and in all ways.
When i say "rightly divided word of God, I am referring to the truth in God's word that does not have contradictions and it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scrptures
Thanks for your reply to my question. Now correct me if I’m way off track here – but when you say you are “referring to the truth in God's word that does not have contradictions and it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scriptures” it seems to me (whether you are aware of it or not) you have introduced an element outside of the scriptures – which is your own cognitive abilities , like attention, memory, judgment, evaluation, language skills, problem solving and reasoning to list a few of them. As the Wikipedia article states “Cognitive processes use existing knowledge and generate new knowledge”.
I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. In fact, it is necessary in order for one to make sense of anything…like deliberating over a water bill that indicates you had used 20,000 gallons of water last month, in your apartment – and you know you only use on average about 2,656 gallons a month. Through your cognitive abilities like memory of previous usage, knowledge of how plumbing works, problem solving – noting you have not seen any indications of massive leaks around the apartment, and decision making you proceed to contacting the landlord and/or utility provider. Now that might be an easy issue to tackle with cognitive abilities.
Now let’s take the Scriptures and think about how we understand or try to make sense of the Bible. Again we must draw upon our cognitive abilities – and of them probably knowledge, memory, language skills, judgment, evaluation and especially reasoning are the most crucial. Besides the drawbacks of having to gain a working knowledge of biblical languages and grasping what ancient Near Eastern cultures were like, the context in history, etc. - often we are not aware of how susceptible we are to confirmation bias . As Wikipedia says “It is a type of cognitive bias. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply-entrenched beliefs.”
So the additional and often invisible element to making sense of the simple direct statements of Scripture is our own cognitive abilities. This additional step of understanding (using our cognitive abilities) carries with it the possibility of an erroneous interpretation due to some flaw in our approach.
I’ll put all my cards on the table. When I was in TWI I used to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. Since I left, I have refocused my faith to having a relationship with Jesus Christ instead of believing in the pseudo-scholarship of wierwille and TWI - and in general even forsaking the fundamentalist’s interpretation of the Bible – where everything is taken literally and all is deemed inerrant.
Do I believe the Bible is the Word of God? Absolutely! Do I believe it’s the God-breathed Word? Absolutely! And just like man in whom God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life – God breathed life into the Scriptures as holy men of God spoke being moved by the Holy Spirit. “Oh wait, is that a reference to Adam and Eve there? They blew it – we’re fallen creatures now.” Yes and that might explain why there are errors and contradictions in the Bible. Another odd thing to think about – Jesus Christ – the Word made flesh – was human. I believe he is the Son of God who once walked the earth – but doggonit why he didn’t write a book in the Bible?! We have inspired accounts of his life and lots of passages in the Bible that explain the meaning of his life (past, present, and future). I still study the Bible…think, pray, philosophize about it – as a means to an end – deepening my relationship with Jesus Christ.
…well if you read this far – I thank you for your patience…and endurance…anyway I thought Twinky, Mark S, Allan, and Socks made some great points discussing the “contradiction” between “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8 and “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5
That’s all for now folks
Edited by T-Bone this revision is NOT God-breathed...I'm just out of breath
I am not judging- what makes you think I am judging?
I only discern what is right and wrong by comparing it with the rightly divided word of God
If i am proven wrong going by the word of God-rightly divided (of course! vw took everyone for a ride)
then I am humble enough to learn from it and accept it. There maybe things that no one knows for sure
until they are in the kingdom of God meeting Jesus Christ face to face
It appears that both words imply that you're right and those you judge are wrong.
Am I wrong on that?
I can't prove you wrong or right. But if you are able to put aside your ego and be still inside, you might discern/judge differently than you have heretofore. Maybe.
When i say "rightly divided word of God, I am referring to the truth in God's word
that does not have contradictions
and it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scrptures
That sounds like something you learned from Wierwille.
How do YOU know it does not have contradictions or that it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scriptures (as we know them)?
The Sabbath is therefore less a matter of Sunday or Saturday, regardless of how you want to decide the day. The idea of following that pattern of devotion towards God is the important aspect of it, that in our physical lives in this day and age we set aside a time to God, to honor Him and this life keeping it mind that we are under a far greater obligation to give honor to God in everything we do, at all times, and in all ways.
There you go, Brother Socks, making rational arguments and coming to wise conclusions.
Thanks for your reply to my question. Now correct me if I’m way off track here – but when you say you are “referring to the truth in God's word that does not have contradictions and it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scriptures” it seems to me (whether you are aware of it or not) you have introduced an element outside of the scriptures – which is your own cognitive abilities , like attention, memory, judgment, evaluation, language skills, problem solving and reasoning to list a few of them. As the Wikipedia article states “Cognitive processes use existing knowledge and generate new knowledge”.
I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. In fact, it is necessary in order for one to make sense of anything…like deliberating over a water bill that indicates you had used 20,000 gallons of water last month, in your apartment – and you know you only use on average about 2,656 gallons a month. Through your cognitive abilities like memory of previous usage, knowledge of how plumbing works, problem solving – noting you have not seen any indications of massive leaks around the apartment, and decision making you proceed to contacting the landlord and/or utility provider. Now that might be an easy issue to tackle with cognitive abilities.
Now let’s take the Scriptures and think about how we understand or try to make sense of the Bible. Again we must draw upon our cognitive abilities – and of them probably knowledge, memory, language skills, judgment, evaluation and especially reasoning are the most crucial. Besides the drawbacks of having to gain a working knowledge of biblical languages and grasping what ancient Near Eastern cultures were like, the context in history, etc. - often we are not aware of how susceptible we are to confirmation bias . As Wikipedia says “It is a type of cognitive bias. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply-entrenched beliefs.”
So the additional and often invisible element to making sense of the simple direct statements of Scripture is our own cognitive abilities. This additional step of understanding (using our cognitive abilities) carries with it the possibility of an erroneous interpretation due to some flaw in our approach.
I’ll put all my cards on the table. When I was in TWI I used to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. Since I left, I have refocused my faith to having a relationship with Jesus Christ instead of believing in the pseudo-scholarship of wierwille and TWI - and in general even forsaking the fundamentalist’s interpretation of the Bible – where everything is taken literally and all is deemed inerrant.
Do I believe the Bible is the Word of God? Absolutely! Do I believe it’s the God-breathed Word? Absolutely! And just like man in whom God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life – God breathed life into the Scriptures as holy men of God spoke being moved by the Holy Spirit. “Oh wait, is that a reference to Adam and Eve there? They blew it – we’re fallen creatures now.” Yes and that might explain why there are errors and contradictions in the Bible. Another odd thing to think about – Jesus Christ – the Word made flesh – was human. I believe he is the Son of God who once walked the earth – but doggonit why he didn’t write a book in the Bible?! We have inspired accounts of his life and lots of passages in the Bible that explain the meaning of his life (past, present, and future). I still study the Bible…think, pray, philosophize about it – as a means to an end – deepening my relationship with Jesus Christ.
…well if you read this far – I thank you for your patience…and endurance…anyway I thought Twinky, Mark S, Allan, and Socks made some great points discussing the “contradiction” between “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8 and “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5
That’s all for now folks
Thanks, and to clarify -
I don't think there's a contradiction and that may be your point, but to be sure - they're not in conflict.
Breaking it down -
- Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
- Ephesians 2 - (the "new man in Christ" and the body/church of God isn't an expanded Israel, it's a new entity of both "Jew and Gentile")
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[e] the Spirit.
- if I had been a Gentile in the era of Acts 15, I would not have been asked to dive in and learn and observe the laws and rites of the Jews. I would have been instructed to NOT do that, and given direction to line up with the earliest "laws of Noah" and give or take - live in peace while knowing that anything and everything I might want to know about Moses and the teachings of the Law was more than available pretty much everywhere there were Jews.
- If i'd been a Jew OR a Gentile at and following the time the epistles were written I'd have gotten essentially the same message but with a GREAT DEAL of additional detail being taught as it was revealed and understood by the writers, none of which steers me to adopt the practices and traditions of the earlier Jews.
- Paul never addresses any kind of apparent contradiction in a way that makes me the reader feel like...hey....I should be learning how to be a good Jew....shouldn't I?....so I can be a good follower of Jesus Christ....? ... don't I need to decide which day to observe the Sabbath?....don't I need to decide how I'm going to cleanse myself and my house through my tithes and offerings....?..............Rather he teaches the joining of Jew and Gentile and all mankind from God through Christ into a new body of people. It's not just an emotional change or a strictly academic change, although both are involved - it's a basic, fundamental change in how my relationship with God and Christ is to be conducted. EVERYTHING I do has to reflect the greater "spiritual realities" if they're to be valid - no building or artifice in which God dwells or meets with me, rather a living tabernacle in a living temple...................no offering of the life of an animal through it's blood sacrifice - rather a trust in the sacrifice of the life of Christ and my offering of my own life through that, to God, for my wholeness.
- It appears obvious but I think a re reading of Acts, Romans, Galatans and Ephesians specifically point to the grave concerns that Paul DID have - that the simple message of Jesus Christ and salvation by faith, not works, and the new Church of and in Christ ,could be easily diluted and changed....so much to the point that when push ever came to shove he didn't want to break the church up over arguments of do-this-or-do-that, he wanted us to remember the "higher ground" of our faith in Christ alone.
PEACE.
Edited by socks I've heard the thunder, now I am waiting for the rain.
That sounds like something you learned from Wierwille.
How do YOU know it does not have contradictions or that it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scriptures (as we know them)?
Look not everything that you learnt from vw is false - he did teach some good principles
you cant honestly tell me that keys to rightly dividing the word of God is rubbish (plagiarized maybe but not rubbish)
Satan doesnt give you everything bad otherwise you will run away
vw was a stupid clown who didnt live the word of God with the type of lifestyle that he led
in fact he admitted that he didnt believe the word. I dont at what point satan entered into him to devise the whole
cult set up so he can travel around in his luxury purpose van- i suppose the bed was the most important thing to him
and he wanted to have free sex while calling himself "father in the word"
I can only pity him when he comes face to face with God
So dont go on a witch hunt on me and tie me in with vw just because i spoke about the rightly divided word
which is biblical
I know what I spoke about regarding the sabbath doesnt have contradictions and it fits
harmoniously because I have studied and checked them out
God loves you bud and wants all of us to come to a knowledge of the truth
Love in Christ
Gabe
The so called Word has lots and lots of contradictions that oftentimes don't fit harmoniously with the rest of the scriptures, no matter how you slice or dice them. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Not everything always fits like a hand in a glove, with mathematical accuracy and scientific precision.
That's right and that's why we need to be like the bereans Acts 17:11. God called them noble
In regards to TWI, i feel we didnt check the twi personally out thoroughly and felt that the way vw
was flawless and gave him too much credit
Look not everything that you learnt from vw is false - he did teach some good principles
you cant honestly tell me that keys to rightly dividing the word of God is rubbish (plagiarized maybe but not rubbish)
Satan doesnt give you everything bad otherwise you will run away
vw was a stupid clown who didnt live the word of God with the type of lifestyle that he led
in fact he admitted that he didnt believe the word. I dont at what point satan entered into him to devise the whole
cult set up so he can travel around in his luxury purpose van- i suppose the bed was the most important thing to him
and he wanted to have free sex while calling himself "father in the word"
I can only pity him when he comes face to face with God
So dont go on a witch hunt on me and tie me in with vw just because i spoke about the rightly divided word
which is biblical
I know what I spoke about regarding the sabbath doesnt have contradictions and it fits
harmoniously because I have studied and checked them out
God loves you bud and wants all of us to come to a knowledge of the truth
Love in Christ
Gabe
That's a long way around the question without even acknowledging the question itself.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." I Thessalonians 5:21
If you didn't learn it from Wierwille, where did you learn it? Okay, that wasn't the question.
But did you ever make it your own? Did you prove it or just accept what he taught you?
Hi - here's my thoughts on the topic - going back to Acts 15 and the first Church "Council" of Jerusalem the leaders that met in Jerusalem discussed the expansion of the church to Gentiles, and exactly what their obligations and responsibilities were in the faith. They very deliberately carved out a place for them that did not include the circumcision nor the vast array of Mosaic laws.
As to the circumcision it now makes much clearer sense than it might have to those Jews living at that time - circumcision identifies the circumcised with Israel. Salvation in Christ identifies the saved with Jesus Christ, where circumcision is truly "of the heart".
That council's decision was to minimize the obligations of the Gentiles to the earliest and arguably simplest and broadest commandments of God to mankind, while letting them know that "Moses" was held forth and taught in ample supply for them to learn, should they wish to. So there's clearly - very clearly a difference being set forth between being subject to the law, "under it" and the encouragement to them of simply studying it and learning from it. (and Christ as the fulfillment of the Law for salvation applies to all)
And we see throughout the New Testament writings this difference being clarified for ALL the members of the church, both Jew and Gentile - that the Law isn't a thing we can pick and choose from to keep some parts of it and not others in relation to our faith in Jesus Christ - if we keep some of it for the sake of righteousness, we are obligated to keep ALL of it and in so doing, we will negate the salvation of Christ, by grace. SO the net result of it all is simple - learning the law of Moses would have value to God's people, as both history and an understanding of God's relationship with His people but as we enter the faith, in the Church, we are no longer Jew OR Gentile, but new people in Christ and as such have this "token" of life today as the sigh of the totality of our new and future lives in eternity.
This all filters down to mean less emphasis on the rites and rituals that symbolize our relationship with God and instead living a new life of total immersion, complete relationship, 24X7, forever. We're no longer limited to one day a week or a few hours in a week of communal time with our Father, we are living it and therefore any observations, rituals and traditions have to reflect that new sense of reality as part of it.
The Sabbath is therefore less a matter of Sunday or Saturday, regardless of how you want to decide the day. The idea of following that pattern of devotion towards God is the important aspect of it, that in our physical lives in this day and age we set aside a time to God, to honor Him and this life keeping it mind that we are under a far greater obligation to give honor to God in everything we do, at all times, and in all ways.
Great point
8 hours ago, socks said:
Thanks, and to clarify -
I don't think there's a contradiction and that may be your point, but to be sure - they're not in conflict.
Breaking it down -
- Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
- Ephesians 2 - (the "new man in Christ" and the body/church of God isn't an expanded Israel, it's a new entity of both "Jew and Gentile")
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[e] the Spirit.
- if I had been a Gentile in the era of Acts 15, I would not have been asked to dive in and learn and observe the laws and rites of the Jews. I would have been instructed to NOT do that, and given direction to line up with the earliest "laws of Noah" and give or take - live in peace while knowing that anything and everything I might want to know about Moses and the teachings of the Law was more than available pretty much everywhere there were Jews.
- If i'd been a Jew OR a Gentile at and following the time the epistles were written I'd have gotten essentially the same message but with a GREAT DEAL of additional detail being taught as it was revealed and understood by the writers, none of which steers me to adopt the practices and traditions of the earlier Jews.
- Paul never addresses any kind of apparent contradiction in a way that makes me the reader feel like...hey....I should be learning how to be a good Jew....shouldn't I?....so I can be a good follower of Jesus Christ....? ... don't I need to decide which day to observe the Sabbath?....don't I need to decide how I'm going to cleanse myself and my house through my tithes and offerings....?..............Rather he teaches the joining of Jew and Gentile and all mankind from God through Christ into a new body of people. It's not just an emotional change or a strictly academic change, although both are involved - it's a basic, fundamental change in how my relationship with God and Christ is to be conducted. EVERYTHING I do has to reflect the greater "spiritual realities" if they're to be valid - no building or artifice in which God dwells or meets with me, rather a living tabernacle in a living temple...................no offering of the life of an animal through it's blood sacrifice - rather a trust in the sacrifice of the life of Christ and my offering of my own life through that, to God, for my wholeness.
- It appears obvious but I think a re reading of Acts, Romans, Galatans and Ephesians specifically point to the grave concerns that Paul DID have - that the simple message of Jesus Christ and salvation by faith, not works, and the new Church of and in Christ ,could be easily diluted and changed....so much to the point that when push ever came to shove he didn't want to break the church up over arguments of do-this-or-do-that, he wanted us to remember the "higher ground" of our faith in Christ alone.
PEACE.
Socks- You are absolutely right when you say our relationship with God must be 24/7 and we have that priveledge of
communicating with God as christians who are living in the post resurrection of Christ era.
I must point out though the bible versions wwe have got a lot of errors in translation including the KJV which is notorious
Just because wthe KJV tells you what has been added by way of italics doesnt mean you can trust it
This is the reason for 2 Timothy 2:15
We normally decide what is true by what we think is the correct interpetation of scriptures based on the material
supplied by a particular version not realising that maybe there are translation errors (in ths case I think you are using
KJV. Am i correct?
In addition I would like to ask you a couple of questions:
(1) Are you saying then that the Law has been abolished?
(2) Are you saying the Jews can have one way of doing things and the Gentiles
need not follow- the Gentiles can do their own thing
That's a long way around the question without even acknowledging the question itself.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." I Thessalonians 5:21
If you didn't learn it from Wierwille, where did you learn it? Okay, that wasn't the question.
But did you ever make it your own? Did you prove it or just accept what he taught you?
After I came out of the way- heart broken and distraught and I sought God with tears
pleading for Him to show me the truth. I will be honest I was so brain washed by TWI
the biggest mistake of my life was not ot check TWI out and when I was in the way,
I didnt even make the word my own- You know when you live in the stinking "way" homes
it's a group think brain wash coming - the sewage coming from the top from TWI HQ-
You are busy being guided by their activities and feeding of their "rightly divided word
The Lord systematically brought me out of false doctrine. I remember when the presence of
God came
That's a long way around the question without even acknowledging the question itself.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." I Thessalonians 5:21
If you didn't learn it from Wierwille, where did you learn it? Okay, that wasn't the question.
But did you ever make it your own? Did you prove it or just accept what he taught you?
When I was in TW in NZ, I lived in the "way" homes and that's the biggest mistake that one can
make. As someone pointed out in GSC- it's a group think brain washing and the sewage comes
from the top- it's all about what the leadership from the top and the foot kissers at the twig level
tell you- your ability to think and medidate is based on the rubbish they give you.
Honestly, what chance do you have, if you told them hey LCM is wrong on this matter-
What do you think would happen.? So, No! I didnt make the word my own while I was in the way
After I got out of the way- and it was a lot of heart ache and disillusionent
I cried out to God pleading "God please show me the truth and I sought him earnestly
I still remember I was in my room praying and suddenly the awesome presence of the Holy
Spirit came upon me and I had tears of joy for days.
The Lord systematicall led me out for error and to know the truth.
When i read this book called "God's plan for mankind", it was like- i kid you not
it was like "the scales of my eyes fell out"
So! Yes! After I got out of the way, I made the word my own by researching and studying
and doing my best to live by what I know as truth from the word of God
Look not everything that you learnt from vw is false - he did teach some good principles you cant honestly tell me that keys to rightly dividing the word of God is rubbish (plagiarized maybe but not rubbish)
Satan doesnt give you everything bad otherwise you will run away
vw was a stupid clown who didnt live the word of God with the type of lifestyle that he led
in fact he admitted that he didnt believe the word. I dont at what point satan entered into him to devise the whole
cult set up so he can travel around in his luxury purpose van- i suppose the bed was the most important thing to him
and he wanted to have free sex while calling himself "father in the word"
I can only pity him when he comes face to face with God
So dont go on a witch hunt on me and tie me in with vw just because i spoke about the rightly divided word
which is biblical
I know what I spoke about regarding the sabbath doesnt have contradictions and it fits
harmoniously because I have studied and checked them out
God loves you bud and wants all of us to come to a knowledge of the truth
Love in Christ
Gabe
The verse you’re alluding to - II Timothy 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” was something wierwille adapted to use like a weapon to divide and conquer – polarize folks to think in one direction – his direction as to how to correctly interpret the Bible – and then once the two options or groups are established – it became an us-versus-them-mentality – wierwille’s theology versus every other individual or group that dares to interpret the Bible. A cult leader develops a group-think-mentality among his or her subordinates as a great way to maintain control of the conquered.
And for what it’s worth – there are many technical references that interpret II Timothy 2:15 quite differently from wierwille’s idea which suggested we all must aspire to cut through any ambiguity, confusion, errors, or contradictions in the Bible with surgical precision. RCH Lenski’s commentaries on the New Testament , Expositors Greek New Testament, W. Robertson Nicoll editor , The NET Bible , and The Cultural Background Bible basically they all handle the passage as follows: since the book of Timothy is addressing preachers and teachers as workmen – and may be drawing upon the imagery of a plowman – who should cut a straight path for others to follow in. Cutting straight having the idea of being true and honest – not swerving off course quarreling over words, irreverent babbling , subverting hearers and upsetting the faith of some, as the context of chapter 2 suggests...In my opinion, II Tim.2:15 has more to do with how a leader presents ANDrepresents the Word of Truth. I don't think it refers to becoming a master at hermeneutics...That echoes something Paul said in II Corinthians 4:2 "But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God."
Not everything wierwille “taught” or plagiarized is rubbish. Another thing to consider is that the works he plagiarized from were not the end-all or the final word…the definitive answer on how a passage is to be interpreted. In other words, people aren’t perfect. Take Bullinger for example. I love his “How to Enjoy the Bible”, “Figures of Speech in the Bible” and “The Companion Bible. I frequently use them. But in my opinion he was a bit of an extremist when it came to some of his interpretations – leaning more on assumptions than what the text plainly states. He was a big proponent of dispensationalism – one of the chapters in “How to Enjoy the Bible” gets into “rightly-dividing” dispensations / administrations – which is totally hypothetically since there are no plain direct passages in the Bible that state such divisions. If you’re into dispensationalism - great. I’m not a big fan myself - I lean more towards a covenant theology or even a Christ-centric theology.
Another one of Bullinger’s extreme interpretations is the four crucified with Jesus - another thing plagiarized by wierwille . In my opinion, this was a weak attempt to get around the discrepancies in the Gospels -which wierwille used to supposedly show “the accuracy and integrity of the Word” – to distinguish himself from other preachers and teachers. And if you didn’t follow his line of thinking on this as well as other topics with “apparent contradictions” then “your whole Bible will fall to pieces”…It might be of interest to those who enjoy reading the Bible to check out Making Sense of the Bible by Adam Hamilton . The book has some great stuff on how the books of the Bible were canonized and even statistical data showing how the Gospels were compiled.
The idea that if one uses certain keys it is guaranteed you will rightly-divide the Word – is just that – an idea – a mental construct . It exists in the person’s mind. That’s not to say it’s a totally bad thing - - wanting to be correct is good - but don’t assume it’s a given - don’t presume you have the perfect formula to extract truth from the text. I think a lot of folks in TWI got fixated on the word "rightly-divided" as something that is totally devoid of mistakes if we follow the format laid out in the PFAL class. When I was in TWI many of us used to talk with such pride that we were in the ministry that has more of the rightly-divided Word than any other group. It made you feel superior and authoritative - “I’m right cuz it says so right there - RIGHTLY-divided.”
I really don't care if someone wants to use the term "rightly divided" - just be forewarned I'll translate that to "using my current level of hermeneutical skills and critical thinking here is what I think the proper interpretation might be" .
We have to use our minds in order to process the information before us – using things like reasoning and critical thinking skills (as I mentioned in my previous post about cognitive abilities). That’s why I said I thought Twinky, Mark S, Allan, and Socks made some great points discussing the “contradiction” between “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8 and “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5. I put “contradiction” in quotes to indicate there might appear to be something theologically inconsistent - which one could infer just by going on what it says - simply reading the text . I enjoyed following the logic and reasoning that these Grease Spotters used to offer possible solutions to the dilemma.
To me Grease Spot is not about condemning everything that wierwille taught or even the stuff he plagiarized. It's about encouraging clear honest thinking. Whatever people want to salvage out of all that is fine by me - since I do that myself. It's like learning to draw with a superfine point of a pen or pencil rather than using big broad brush strokes. Instead of black or white thinking - it's shades of gray - even technicolor ! We do not have to be a prisoners of all-or-nothing-thinking...which is a cognitive distortion encouraged by TWI . see the cognitive distortion of all-or-nothing-thinking - from that website the following:
"A cognitive distortion is an automatic way of repeatedly interpreting a situation that causes us to not consider other ways of thinking about it. When we over-rely on cognitive distortions, we usually interpret events in such a way that fuels emotions such as anxiety, depression, or anger. All-or-nothing thinking is one such distortion. All-or-nothing thinking refers to thinking in extremes. You are either a success or a failure. Your performance was totally good or totally bad. If you are not perfect, then you are a failure. This binary way of thinking does not account for shades of gray, and can be responsible for a great deal of negative evaluations of yourself and others."
And I like hearing from other folks who do NOT think like I do - it helps broaden my horizons - gives me a different perspective. It's not about how much I know or how much I can out-geek someone else when it comes to interpreting the Bible. It's about always developing critical thinking skills to better process what I study...When I look at Acts 17:2 where Paul reasoned with folks out of the scriptures and in verse 11 where folks searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true – I think there was a lot more going on than just quoting scripture or simply fact-checking if Paul cited a verse correctly. Paul reasoned – he must have employed arguments, logic, explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead – since this was not something clearly delineated in the Old Testament. That’s why the Berean Jews examined the scriptures – probably a lot of them were familiar with the verses Paul had referenced – but now they were reevaluating how to interpret them in light of the logic and explanations that Paul gave.
"Knowing a great deal is not the same as being smart; intelligence is not information alone but also judgment, the manner in which information is collected and used"....Carl Sagan
Socks- You are absolutely right when you say our relationship with God must be 24/7 and we have that priveledge of
communicating with God as christians who are living in the post resurrection of Christ era.
I must point out though the bible versions wwe have got a lot of errors in translation including the KJV which is notorious
Just because wthe KJV tells you what has been added by way of italics doesnt mean you can trust it
This is the reason for 2 Timothy 2:15
We normally decide what is true by what we think is the correct interpetation of scriptures based on the material
supplied by a particular version not realising that maybe there are translation errors (in ths case I think you are using
KJV. Am i correct?
In addition I would like to ask you a couple of questions:
(1) Are you saying then that the Law has been abolished?
(2) Are you saying the Jews can have one way of doing things and the Gentiles
need not follow- the Gentiles can do their own thing
Hi - thanks.
1. Fulfilled, and as it is said, a new covenant required a new priest. Matthew 5:17–18 - Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. Romans 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. And of course as Hebrews covers - 9:12 - He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.....and....7:23–24, The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
2. No.
In Acts 15 they essentially came up with a compromise of sorts for the Church, a determination that freed Gentiles from needing to observe the Law, going forward. It was their decision as to how to proceed and for them it left the topic of the church as a whole and specifically Jews still under discussion. In the teaching of the epistles however we see that there was - is - neither Jew nor Gentile and all believers in the faith are part of the same body and have the same Lord, Jesus Christ. So today there are not separate rules for each - 's'all one Church.
My point in bringing that into the discussion is that it makes it easier to see what was really going on and to see the struggle they had in learning and accepting it, in a very human way that I get because by the Old Covenant I AM A GENTILE, and coming into the Christian faith in Jesus Christ I have none of the Jewish religion that I observe, just as Gentiles then didn't either.....so I wouldn't automatically assume any of it because I'd have to be taught it first. They recognized NOT to do that, and in time learned it applied to them also - one God, one Lord, one Body, and one salvation in Christ.
Again, its just an easy way to understand the doctrine of the NT if I put myself into their shoes and nothing does that better than seeing the two groups of Jew and Gentile - one is God's called nation of people and - the other is "everyone else". I am in fact a Gentile from that viewpoint. But not in the "New covenant" of Jesus Christ through which all become one body, one Church, one group of called out people's. And in that new covenant Jesus Christ does not require me to be circumcised (although I am in heart separated and cleansed in this "new man" of Christ), or to tithe to the temple (although I can give and share freely of all that I am and have, in recognition of God's grace towards me) or to observe the Sabbath as a required day of "rest" and devotion (although I can now devote all my time and life, and everything I do, to God through Jesus Christ, "lord of the Sabbath")
Sunday? Saturday?
Hell, I was raised Catholic, pick one, I can do one day a week with a bunch of convoluted exceptions and work arounds, standing up, that's easy time.
In Christ, I'm on the clock 7 days a week, forever. I set aside time everyday for prayer, meditation, devotion. I need it. Charitable giving, on call service ministering - cell's off the hook now. I've gone from death to life, from condemned to celebrated son. I'm in the family business now and it's personal AND it's business. It's a way of life.
-----------------------
Based on the revelation of Peter, Paul, the witness of others at the council and the reminding of the O.T. promise of the Gentiles becoming part of God's people, it became very clear to them that Gentiles were receiving salvation through faith in Jesus Christ without any observance of the Law, and certainly circumcision which had brought the issue to a head and led to their meeting to discuss. This clarifies all of the practices of the Law - if I were a Gentile at that time, it would not have meant I would STOP doing some or all of the Law (because I wouldn't have been observing any of it, not being Jewish), it would have meant I wouldn't START doing ANY of it. The few things they did cite in their letter to the Church at that time appears to basically be a call out to the pre-Mosaic law "laws" or standards of Gods', and there's clearly no tie in to the role of such things being a part of the "new" faith, rather the inference that they are a reflection of their new lives, in Christ. I do think that gives a logical foundation for what I read later in Paul's epistles, that the spirit of God was leading them to understand the long arc of history.
The decision of Acts 15 reflects a thoughtful Church leadership and growing members who were balancing between the old and the new - some had known Jesus face to face, followed Him, heard Him, knew Him. Others had heard the testimony of those people and then others and believed. Others like Paul had their own direct receipt of the message of Christ. All of the original group and the first generations of converts were Jewish - and now they see the message expanding out by God's direction and revelation. From my perspective today, it would seem reasonable in the narrative of Acts that the experience of Pentecost ushers in the "new covenant" of Christ in dramatic fashion and it grows from there. What it meant appears to have been a rolling out of their own knowledge, awareness and understanding.
1. Fulfilled, and as it is said, a new covenant required a new priest. Matthew 5:17–18 - Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. Romans 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. And of course as Hebrews covers - 9:12 - He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.....and....7:23–24, The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
2. No.
In Acts 15 they essentially came up with a compromise of sorts for the Church, a determination that freed Gentiles from needing to observe the Law, going forward. It was their decision as to how to proceed and for them it left the topic of the church as a whole and specifically Jews still under discussion. In the teaching of the epistles however we see that there was - is - neither Jew nor Gentile and all believers in the faith are part of the same body and have the same Lord, Jesus Christ. So today there are not separate rules for each - 's'all one Church.
My point in bringing that into the discussion is that it makes it easier to see what was really going on and to see the struggle they had in learning and accepting it, in a very human way that I get because by the Old Covenant I AM A GENTILE, and coming into the Christian faith in Jesus Christ I have none of the Jewish religion that I observe, just as Gentiles then didn't either.....so I wouldn't automatically assume any of it because I'd have to be taught it first. They recognized NOT to do that, and in time learned it applied to them also - one God, one Lord, one Body, and one salvation in Christ.
Again, its just an easy way to understand the doctrine of the NT if I put myself into their shoes and nothing does that better than seeing the two groups of Jew and Gentile - one is God's called nation of people and - the other is "everyone else". I am in fact a Gentile from that viewpoint. But not in the "New covenant" of Jesus Christ through which all become one body, one Church, one group of called out people's. And in that new covenant Jesus Christ does not require me to be circumcised (although I am in heart separated and cleansed in this "new man" of Christ), or to tithe to the temple (although I can give and share freely of all that I am and have, in recognition of God's grace towards me) or to observe the Sabbath as a required day of "rest" and devotion (although I can now devote all my time and life, and everything I do, to God through Jesus Christ, "lord of the Sabbath")
Sunday? Saturday?
Hell, I was raised Catholic, pick one, I can do one day a week with a bunch of convoluted exceptions and work arounds, standing up, that's easy time.
In Christ, I'm on the clock 7 days a week, forever. I set aside time everyday for prayer, meditation, devotion. I need it. Charitable giving, on call service ministering - cell's off the hook now. I've gone from death to life, from condemned to celebrated son. I'm in the family business now and it's personal AND it's business. It's a way of life.
-----------------------
Based on the revelation of Peter, Paul, the witness of others at the council and the reminding of the O.T. promise of the Gentiles becoming part of God's people, it became very clear to them that Gentiles were receiving salvation through faith in Jesus Christ without any observance of the Law, and certainly circumcision which had brought the issue to a head and led to their meeting to discuss. This clarifies all of the practices of the Law - if I were a Gentile at that time, it would not have meant I would STOP doing some or all of the Law (because I wouldn't have been observing any of it, not being Jewish), it would have meant I wouldn't START doing ANY of it. The few things they did cite in their letter to the Church at that time appears to basically be a call out to the pre-Mosaic law "laws" or standards of Gods', and there's clearly no tie in to the role of such things being a part of the "new" faith, rather the inference that they are a reflection of their new lives, in Christ. I do think that gives a logical foundation for what I read later in Paul's epistles, that the spirit of God was leading them to understand the long arc of history.
The decision of Acts 15 reflects a thoughtful Church leadership and growing members who were balancing between the old and the new - some had known Jesus face to face, followed Him, heard Him, knew Him. Others had heard the testimony of those people and then others and believed. Others like Paul had their own direct receipt of the message of Christ. All of the original group and the first generations of converts were Jewish - and now they see the message expanding out by God's direction and revelation. From my perspective today, it would seem reasonable in the narrative of Acts that the experience of Pentecost ushers in the "new covenant" of Christ in dramatic fashion and it grows from there. What it meant appears to have been a rolling out of their own knowledge, awareness and understanding.
Can you please elaborate your understanding of: Romans 10:4- For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Also dont get me wrong I am not saying that there is a specific day set aside for you to rest and worship
and the rest of the day you are supposed to forget God. No! we must be in constant communication with God
But God also ordained a specific day so that families and working people can rest from their labours
Other people may be forced to work to provide for their families- Most people are engaged with some type
of work to feed themselves- So God made it a universal command for an appointment all christians to
specifically set aside the 7th day (Saturday) corresponding to our modern calendar for collective
rest and worship and teaching
The early christians had direct knowledge of the word of God being taught by the apostles
who were directly taugh by Jesus Christ (The Lord of The Sabbath)
Shouldnt we follow the example set by the early christians in accordance with the word of God
Lord of the Sabbath doesnt mean Jesus Christ did what he liked but Lord of Sabbath here means-
He stood for the Sabbath. It is like Jesus Christ was King of the Sabbath
Jesus Christ would never break the 4th Commandment of God (Exodus 20)
Did you know that the 7th day sabbath was never in question by jews or gentiles?
That's why the sabbath never surfaced as an issue. Circumcision was but it was
settled because as you rightly said Paul preached that circumcision was the circumcision
of the heart.
In regards to the debate on whether the newly converted gentiles should conform to what the jewish
christians were doing (circumcision)in Acts 21:25
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that
they observe no such thing (circumcision), save only that they keep themselves from things
offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
There is absolutely nothing state above in regards to the keeping of the sabbath
Why??? Because Sabbath was never an issue
They were unified and of one heart in keeping the sabbath
Rom 10:
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
By not keeping the sabbath, Gentile christians of today contradict Rom 10:12 essentially saying we have a new understanding from the jews
No! There is nothing mentioned about sabbath in Acts 21:25 - it was purely relating to the circumcision.
This is a classic case of where one can run into the trap of getting something out of context and applying it to something else which is unrelated
The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership
Acts 13:
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentilesbesought these words might be preached tothem the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
So God made it a universal command for an appointment all christians to
specifically set aside the 7th day (Saturday) corresponding to our modern calendar for collective
rest and worship and teaching
Not "all Christians," Waxit. All Israelites (ie, not just Judeans or "Jews") - yes. All Christians - no.
Can you tell us why this issue (above all issues) is important to you? I ask, because there are so many other things we've discussed here at the Café that appear more relevant to our daily lives.
"The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership
Acts 13:
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentilesbesought these words might be preached tothem the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God."
[Actually, if this is the only place you're getting it from, you're jumping to a conclusion.
The synagogue was open on "the Sabbath" for prayer and talking about God. That was expected among the practicing Jews who were not Christians. When some Jews believed and became Christians, the "default" for them automatically would have been to meet on the same day unless they were unable to do so. There's also nothing shocking about a "Christian Jew" going to the synagogue to hear the Torah (Old Testament) being read. That was the only place to do it, and there were no printing presses so no Bibles at home to read from.
So, unless they were prevented from doing so, "Christian Jews" would show up at the synagogue on "the Sabbath", listen to the Torah being read, and speaking to devout Jews about the Messiah and preaching Christ to them. They'd want devout Jews to know the coming Messiah had arrived, after all. It's also not terribly shocking that some Gentiles who'd want to hear would follow news of "Christian Jews" (the disciples) would end up near, around, or otherwise at the synagogue to hear. That's where they were, that's where they were teaching, and that's WHEN they were teaching.
All of that is simple human nature (force of habit, this is where the Torah is being read so I listen there, this is where they need to hear, so I speak there), and it's not necessary to even get into "Israel was told to respect the Sabbath" to have a reasonable explanation. ]
"The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership
Acts 13:
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentilesbesought these words might be preached tothem the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God."
[Actually, if this is the only place you're getting it from, you're jumping to a conclusion.
The synagogue was open on "the Sabbath" for prayer and talking about God. That was expected among the practicing Jews who were not Christians. When some Jews believed and became Christians, the "default" for them automatically would have been to meet on the same day unless they were unable to do so. There's also nothing shocking about a "Christian Jew" going to the synagogue to hear the Torah (Old Testament) being read. That was the only place to do it, and there were no printing presses so no Bibles at home to read from.
So, unless they were prevented from doing so, "Christian Jews" would show up at the synagogue on "the Sabbath", listen to the Torah being read, and speaking to devout Jews about the Messiah and preaching Christ to them. They'd want devout Jews to know the coming Messiah had arrived, after all. It's also not terribly shocking that some Gentiles who'd want to hear would follow news of "Christian Jews" (the disciples) would end up near, around, or otherwise at the synagogue to hear. That's where they were, that's where they were teaching, and that's WHEN they were teaching.
All of that is simple human nature (force of habit, this is where the Torah is being read so I listen there, this is where they need to hear, so I speak there), and it's not necessary to even get into "Israel was told to respect the Sabbath" to have a reasonable explanation. ]
I think that states my understanding and thoughts on it, from the "bottom line", WW.
It would account for the shift of days over history, too. As Christianity moved away from it's "homeland" of the middle east and the roots of Jewish history and religious practice days could certainly shift, Saturday to Sunday, to Wednesday, to any day of the week for that matter. There really doesn't appear to be a clear order for the new church to maintain their past religious practices over time. I don't put a lot of weight on what they DIDN'T tell the Gentiles if the idea is they didn't because it would already be known or an assumed practice, because if they were Gentiles like ME, they wouldn't have known ANYthing about any of it.
One of the things that strikes me about the way the revelation of Christ and the understanding of it developed is that it .... seems .... like it ended up requiring the passage of time and events in order for it to be fully hmmm...."realized" by the Church. I mean - while under the direct immersion of the Jewish faith, near or in Jerusalem, surrounded by history of the Jews any move into a "new" body of called out believers would naturally be influenced by the Jewish roots as you're pointing out WW. It only makes sense. Then that changed in ways that perhaps they never envisioned - Constantine converting? Roman prominence in the establishment of the new church? There were some unprecedented events that moved it away from being a persecuted cult to being essentially a state religion of Rome. Some baggage came with that and not all the changes over time were good but it DID under score the essential basics of Christ and in ways that it would have been difficult to embrace in the years or Peter and Paul. I think that adds to the incredible insight they DID get and their ability to change according to what they believed God was showing them.
Many of the things that Paul reproved and instructed the Corinthian church on correcting read very much like the kinds of things that could develop in a social and political caste system that moved away from the fundamentals.of Christ, the servant leader, Messiah and emphasized seniority, heritage, position, etc.
waxit, I think you make some very good points and we'd probably meet in the middle - if you go with Saturday over Sunday there's a basis for that just as there could be for Sunday over Saturday. Whatever the Jewish history was would certainly have a place of prominence because it's the history up until Christ. The coming of the Messiah formed a new era, one that was not anticipated as it came to be in the form of the "church" of the called out followers of Jesus Christ.
The synagogue was open on "the Sabbath" for prayer and talking about God. That was expected among the practicing Jews who were not Christians. When some Jews believed and became Christians, the "default" for them automatically would have been to meet on the same day unless they were unable to do so. There's also nothing shocking about a "Christian Jew" going to the synagogue to hear the Torah (Old Testament) being read. That was the only place to do it, and there were no printing presses so no Bibles at home to read from.
6 hours ago, Waxit said:
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentilesbesought these words might be preached tothem the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
As well as what WW indicates, it's likely that people worked all day every day and the "sabbath" was the only day off. The only day the men weren't about their business of tending cattle, fields, trading, etc; women more likely in the home tending children, or doing household tasks, or maybe trading. In the evenings, people would eat at home and generally stay home (agricultural community: early to bed, early to rise) or hang out with nearby friends. The times for meeting would be market days (which may have happened on most days, but it's still work, not time to discuss at length) and at "weekends" ie sabbath days. So when else would the Gentiles, or anybody else for that matter, have time to discuss further?
I think that what's more important here is that some (but by no means all) of the Jews of Antioch were at that time willing to hear, to consider; and that the community was enlightened and open enough that Gentiles could also hear the message.
It might be interesting also to consider where this next reported meeting took place. "Almost the whole city came together" - but not necessarily in the synagogue (smallish building) nor in a temple (with a Court of the Gentiles). In fact, almost certainly not, because the holier-than-thou Jews then got ticked off at Paul & Co.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered [where??] to hear the word of the Lord.45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him..
Maybe in the agora/market place? We know from Acts 17 that Paul "reasoned" with people in the market place, having made himself unpopular in the synagogue.
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Twinky
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer. The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time
WordWolf
"The thing though with you guys, it looks like in a clique, you are comfortable in protecting yourselves and when a new kid in the block comes is with something you don't like (which is quite clearl
WordWolf
Waxit: "The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
Waxit
Point taken- I probably have to re word things so it comes across as a discussion rather than doctrine that should be accepted
Sorry to all if I gave you the wrong impression
Something to consider Twinky
The names of days may have been arbitrary and it maybe named after pagan gods but right from the beginning the sabbath has
been observed and has been passed through the generations.
Otherwise why would God say"remember to keep the sabbath" even before it's introduced
The Jews have got a lot of their own man made traditions as in the pharisees - hundreds of complicated rules
which God never told them to do and they observed the sabbath with the wrong heart- they were strict in their observance and the one thing they could never be
fauted on is observing the weekly 7th day sabbath- which God commanded them to do
using the calculated hebrew calendar- it's very accurate.
God gave them the calendar and God should know because he created time, days and seasons
the day we call saturday has been calculated as
the 7th day- I know there were the introduction of the gregorian (modern day calendar) but the jews re adjusted
it to ensure that it was always the 7th day that they observe the sabbath
In Exodus 20- even before the ten commandments was officially given in written tablets
God is saying remember to keep the sabbath- so it was not something new to them, the knowledge
of when to keep it has been passed right down from Adam & Eve where the word of God was written in the stars
Exodus 20
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
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T-Bone
you've made reference to " the rightly divided word of God" a few times in this discussion - I was wondering if you could break that down - would you please define that.
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Waxit
When i say "rightly divided word of God, I am referring to the truth in God's word
that does not have contradictions
and it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scrptures
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waysider
The so called Word has lots and lots of contradictions that oftentimes don't fit harmoniously with the rest of the scriptures, no matter how you slice or dice them. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Not everything always fits like a hand in a glove, with mathematical accuracy and scientific precision.
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socks
Hi - here's my thoughts on the topic - going back to Acts 15 and the first Church "Council" of Jerusalem the leaders that met in Jerusalem discussed the expansion of the church to Gentiles, and exactly what their obligations and responsibilities were in the faith. They very deliberately carved out a place for them that did not include the circumcision nor the vast array of Mosaic laws.
As to the circumcision it now makes much clearer sense than it might have to those Jews living at that time - circumcision identifies the circumcised with Israel. Salvation in Christ identifies the saved with Jesus Christ, where circumcision is truly "of the heart".
That council's decision was to minimize the obligations of the Gentiles to the earliest and arguably simplest and broadest commandments of God to mankind, while letting them know that "Moses" was held forth and taught in ample supply for them to learn, should they wish to. So there's clearly - very clearly a difference being set forth between being subject to the law, "under it" and the encouragement to them of simply studying it and learning from it. (and Christ as the fulfillment of the Law for salvation applies to all)
And we see throughout the New Testament writings this difference being clarified for ALL the members of the church, both Jew and Gentile - that the Law isn't a thing we can pick and choose from to keep some parts of it and not others in relation to our faith in Jesus Christ - if we keep some of it for the sake of righteousness, we are obligated to keep ALL of it and in so doing, we will negate the salvation of Christ, by grace. SO the net result of it all is simple - learning the law of Moses would have value to God's people, as both history and an understanding of God's relationship with His people but as we enter the faith, in the Church, we are no longer Jew OR Gentile, but new people in Christ and as such have this "token" of life today as the sigh of the totality of our new and future lives in eternity.
This all filters down to mean less emphasis on the rites and rituals that symbolize our relationship with God and instead living a new life of total immersion, complete relationship, 24X7, forever. We're no longer limited to one day a week or a few hours in a week of communal time with our Father, we are living it and therefore any observations, rituals and traditions have to reflect that new sense of reality as part of it.
The Sabbath is therefore less a matter of Sunday or Saturday, regardless of how you want to decide the day. The idea of following that pattern of devotion towards God is the important aspect of it, that in our physical lives in this day and age we set aside a time to God, to honor Him and this life keeping it mind that we are under a far greater obligation to give honor to God in everything we do, at all times, and in all ways.
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T-Bone
Thanks for your reply to my question. Now correct me if I’m way off track here – but when you say you are “referring to the truth in God's word that does not have contradictions and it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scriptures” it seems to me (whether you are aware of it or not) you have introduced an element outside of the scriptures – which is your own cognitive abilities , like attention, memory, judgment, evaluation, language skills, problem solving and reasoning to list a few of them. As the Wikipedia article states “Cognitive processes use existing knowledge and generate new knowledge”.
I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. In fact, it is necessary in order for one to make sense of anything…like deliberating over a water bill that indicates you had used 20,000 gallons of water last month, in your apartment – and you know you only use on average about 2,656 gallons a month. Through your cognitive abilities like memory of previous usage, knowledge of how plumbing works, problem solving – noting you have not seen any indications of massive leaks around the apartment, and decision making you proceed to contacting the landlord and/or utility provider. Now that might be an easy issue to tackle with cognitive abilities.
Now let’s take the Scriptures and think about how we understand or try to make sense of the Bible. Again we must draw upon our cognitive abilities – and of them probably knowledge, memory, language skills, judgment, evaluation and especially reasoning are the most crucial. Besides the drawbacks of having to gain a working knowledge of biblical languages and grasping what ancient Near Eastern cultures were like, the context in history, etc. - often we are not aware of how susceptible we are to confirmation bias . As Wikipedia says “It is a type of cognitive bias. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply-entrenched beliefs.”
So the additional and often invisible element to making sense of the simple direct statements of Scripture is our own cognitive abilities. This additional step of understanding (using our cognitive abilities) carries with it the possibility of an erroneous interpretation due to some flaw in our approach.
I’ll put all my cards on the table. When I was in TWI I used to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. Since I left, I have refocused my faith to having a relationship with Jesus Christ instead of believing in the pseudo-scholarship of wierwille and TWI - and in general even forsaking the fundamentalist’s interpretation of the Bible – where everything is taken literally and all is deemed inerrant.
Do I believe the Bible is the Word of God? Absolutely! Do I believe it’s the God-breathed Word? Absolutely! And just like man in whom God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life – God breathed life into the Scriptures as holy men of God spoke being moved by the Holy Spirit. “Oh wait, is that a reference to Adam and Eve there? They blew it – we’re fallen creatures now.” Yes and that might explain why there are errors and contradictions in the Bible. Another odd thing to think about – Jesus Christ – the Word made flesh – was human. I believe he is the Son of God who once walked the earth – but doggonit why he didn’t write a book in the Bible?! We have inspired accounts of his life and lots of passages in the Bible that explain the meaning of his life (past, present, and future). I still study the Bible…think, pray, philosophize about it – as a means to an end – deepening my relationship with Jesus Christ.
…well if you read this far – I thank you for your patience…and endurance…anyway I thought Twinky, Mark S, Allan, and Socks made some great points discussing the “contradiction” between “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8 and “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5
That’s all for now folks
Edited by T-Bonethis revision is NOT God-breathed...I'm just out of breath
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Rocky
I don't think you get the point.
What's the difference between judgment and discernment?
It appears that both words imply that you're right and those you judge are wrong.
Am I wrong on that?
I can't prove you wrong or right. But if you are able to put aside your ego and be still inside, you might discern/judge differently than you have heretofore. Maybe.
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Rocky
That sounds like something you learned from Wierwille.
How do YOU know it does not have contradictions or that it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scriptures (as we know them)?
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Rocky
There you go, Brother Socks, making rational arguments and coming to wise conclusions.
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socks
Thanks, and to clarify -
I don't think there's a contradiction and that may be your point, but to be sure - they're not in conflict.
Breaking it down -
- Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
- Ephesians 2 - (the "new man in Christ" and the body/church of God isn't an expanded Israel, it's a new entity of both "Jew and Gentile")
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[e] the Spirit.
- if I had been a Gentile in the era of Acts 15, I would not have been asked to dive in and learn and observe the laws and rites of the Jews. I would have been instructed to NOT do that, and given direction to line up with the earliest "laws of Noah" and give or take - live in peace while knowing that anything and everything I might want to know about Moses and the teachings of the Law was more than available pretty much everywhere there were Jews.
- If i'd been a Jew OR a Gentile at and following the time the epistles were written I'd have gotten essentially the same message but with a GREAT DEAL of additional detail being taught as it was revealed and understood by the writers, none of which steers me to adopt the practices and traditions of the earlier Jews.
- Paul never addresses any kind of apparent contradiction in a way that makes me the reader feel like...hey....I should be learning how to be a good Jew....shouldn't I?....so I can be a good follower of Jesus Christ....? ... don't I need to decide which day to observe the Sabbath?....don't I need to decide how I'm going to cleanse myself and my house through my tithes and offerings....?..............Rather he teaches the joining of Jew and Gentile and all mankind from God through Christ into a new body of people. It's not just an emotional change or a strictly academic change, although both are involved - it's a basic, fundamental change in how my relationship with God and Christ is to be conducted. EVERYTHING I do has to reflect the greater "spiritual realities" if they're to be valid - no building or artifice in which God dwells or meets with me, rather a living tabernacle in a living temple...................no offering of the life of an animal through it's blood sacrifice - rather a trust in the sacrifice of the life of Christ and my offering of my own life through that, to God, for my wholeness.
- It appears obvious but I think a re reading of Acts, Romans, Galatans and Ephesians specifically point to the grave concerns that Paul DID have - that the simple message of Jesus Christ and salvation by faith, not works, and the new Church of and in Christ ,could be easily diluted and changed....so much to the point that when push ever came to shove he didn't want to break the church up over arguments of do-this-or-do-that, he wanted us to remember the "higher ground" of our faith in Christ alone.
PEACE.
Edited by socksI've heard the thunder, now I am waiting for the rain.
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socks
PEACE man! Thanks.
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Waxit
Look not everything that you learnt from vw is false - he did teach some good principles
you cant honestly tell me that keys to rightly dividing the word of God is rubbish (plagiarized maybe but not rubbish)
Satan doesnt give you everything bad otherwise you will run away
vw was a stupid clown who didnt live the word of God with the type of lifestyle that he led
in fact he admitted that he didnt believe the word. I dont at what point satan entered into him to devise the whole
cult set up so he can travel around in his luxury purpose van- i suppose the bed was the most important thing to him
and he wanted to have free sex while calling himself "father in the word"
I can only pity him when he comes face to face with God
So dont go on a witch hunt on me and tie me in with vw just because i spoke about the rightly divided word
which is biblical
I know what I spoke about regarding the sabbath doesnt have contradictions and it fits
harmoniously because I have studied and checked them out
God loves you bud and wants all of us to come to a knowledge of the truth
Edited by WaxitLove in Christ
Gabe
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Waxit
That's right and that's why we need to be like the bereans Acts 17:11. God called them noble
In regards to TWI, i feel we didnt check the twi personally out thoroughly and felt that the way vw
was flawless and gave him too much credit
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Rocky
That's a long way around the question without even acknowledging the question itself.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." I Thessalonians 5:21
If you didn't learn it from Wierwille, where did you learn it? Okay, that wasn't the question.
But did you ever make it your own? Did you prove it or just accept what he taught you?
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Waxit
Great point
Socks- You are absolutely right when you say our relationship with God must be 24/7 and we have that priveledge of
communicating with God as christians who are living in the post resurrection of Christ era.
I must point out though the bible versions wwe have got a lot of errors in translation including the KJV which is notorious
Just because wthe KJV tells you what has been added by way of italics doesnt mean you can trust it
This is the reason for 2 Timothy 2:15
We normally decide what is true by what we think is the correct interpetation of scriptures based on the material
supplied by a particular version not realising that maybe there are translation errors (in ths case I think you are using
KJV. Am i correct?
In addition I would like to ask you a couple of questions:
(1) Are you saying then that the Law has been abolished?
(2) Are you saying the Jews can have one way of doing things and the Gentiles
need not follow- the Gentiles can do their own thing
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Waxit
After I came out of the way- heart broken and distraught and I sought God with tears
pleading for Him to show me the truth. I will be honest I was so brain washed by TWI
the biggest mistake of my life was not ot check TWI out and when I was in the way,
I didnt even make the word my own- You know when you live in the stinking "way" homes
it's a group think brain wash coming - the sewage coming from the top from TWI HQ-
You are busy being guided by their activities and feeding of their "rightly divided word
The Lord systematically brought me out of false doctrine. I remember when the presence of
God came
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Waxit
When I was in TW in NZ, I lived in the "way" homes and that's the biggest mistake that one can
make. As someone pointed out in GSC- it's a group think brain washing and the sewage comes
from the top- it's all about what the leadership from the top and the foot kissers at the twig level
tell you- your ability to think and medidate is based on the rubbish they give you.
Honestly, what chance do you have, if you told them hey LCM is wrong on this matter-
What do you think would happen.? So, No! I didnt make the word my own while I was in the way
After I got out of the way- and it was a lot of heart ache and disillusionent
I cried out to God pleading "God please show me the truth and I sought him earnestly
I still remember I was in my room praying and suddenly the awesome presence of the Holy
Spirit came upon me and I had tears of joy for days.
The Lord systematicall led me out for error and to know the truth.
When i read this book called "God's plan for mankind", it was like- i kid you not
it was like "the scales of my eyes fell out"
So! Yes! After I got out of the way, I made the word my own by researching and studying
and doing my best to live by what I know as truth from the word of God
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T-Bone
The verse you’re alluding to - II Timothy 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” was something wierwille adapted to use like a weapon to divide and conquer – polarize folks to think in one direction – his direction as to how to correctly interpret the Bible – and then once the two options or groups are established – it became an us-versus-them-mentality – wierwille’s theology versus every other individual or group that dares to interpret the Bible. A cult leader develops a group-think-mentality among his or her subordinates as a great way to maintain control of the conquered.
And for what it’s worth – there are many technical references that interpret II Timothy 2:15 quite differently from wierwille’s idea which suggested we all must aspire to cut through any ambiguity, confusion, errors, or contradictions in the Bible with surgical precision. RCH Lenski’s commentaries on the New Testament , Expositors Greek New Testament, W. Robertson Nicoll editor , The NET Bible , and The Cultural Background Bible basically they all handle the passage as follows: since the book of Timothy is addressing preachers and teachers as workmen – and may be drawing upon the imagery of a plowman – who should cut a straight path for others to follow in. Cutting straight having the idea of being true and honest – not swerving off course quarreling over words, irreverent babbling , subverting hearers and upsetting the faith of some, as the context of chapter 2 suggests...In my opinion, II Tim.2:15 has more to do with how a leader presents AND represents the Word of Truth. I don't think it refers to becoming a master at hermeneutics...That echoes something Paul said in II Corinthians 4:2 "But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God."
Not everything wierwille “taught” or plagiarized is rubbish. Another thing to consider is that the works he plagiarized from were not the end-all or the final word…the definitive answer on how a passage is to be interpreted. In other words, people aren’t perfect. Take Bullinger for example. I love his “How to Enjoy the Bible”, “Figures of Speech in the Bible” and “The Companion Bible. I frequently use them. But in my opinion he was a bit of an extremist when it came to some of his interpretations – leaning more on assumptions than what the text plainly states. He was a big proponent of dispensationalism – one of the chapters in “How to Enjoy the Bible” gets into “rightly-dividing” dispensations / administrations – which is totally hypothetically since there are no plain direct passages in the Bible that state such divisions. If you’re into dispensationalism - great. I’m not a big fan myself - I lean more towards a covenant theology or even a Christ-centric theology.
Another one of Bullinger’s extreme interpretations is the four crucified with Jesus - another thing plagiarized by wierwille . In my opinion, this was a weak attempt to get around the discrepancies in the Gospels -which wierwille used to supposedly show “the accuracy and integrity of the Word” – to distinguish himself from other preachers and teachers. And if you didn’t follow his line of thinking on this as well as other topics with “apparent contradictions” then “your whole Bible will fall to pieces”…It might be of interest to those who enjoy reading the Bible to check out Making Sense of the Bible by Adam Hamilton . The book has some great stuff on how the books of the Bible were canonized and even statistical data showing how the Gospels were compiled.
The idea that if one uses certain keys it is guaranteed you will rightly-divide the Word – is just that – an idea – a mental construct . It exists in the person’s mind. That’s not to say it’s a totally bad thing - - wanting to be correct is good - but don’t assume it’s a given - don’t presume you have the perfect formula to extract truth from the text. I think a lot of folks in TWI got fixated on the word "rightly-divided" as something that is totally devoid of mistakes if we follow the format laid out in the PFAL class. When I was in TWI many of us used to talk with such pride that we were in the ministry that has more of the rightly-divided Word than any other group. It made you feel superior and authoritative - “I’m right cuz it says so right there - RIGHTLY-divided.”
I really don't care if someone wants to use the term "rightly divided" - just be forewarned I'll translate that to "using my current level of hermeneutical skills and critical thinking here is what I think the proper interpretation might be"
.
We have to use our minds in order to process the information before us – using things like reasoning and critical thinking skills (as I mentioned in my previous post about cognitive abilities). That’s why I said I thought Twinky, Mark S, Allan, and Socks made some great points discussing the “contradiction” between “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8 and “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5. I put “contradiction” in quotes to indicate there might appear to be something theologically inconsistent - which one could infer just by going on what it says - simply reading the text . I enjoyed following the logic and reasoning that these Grease Spotters used to offer possible solutions to the dilemma.
To me Grease Spot is not about condemning everything that wierwille taught or even the stuff he plagiarized. It's about encouraging clear honest thinking. Whatever people want to salvage out of all that is fine by me - since I do that myself. It's like learning to draw with a superfine point of a pen or pencil rather than using big broad brush strokes. Instead of black or white thinking - it's shades of gray - even technicolor
! We do not have to be a prisoners of all-or-nothing-thinking...which is a cognitive distortion encouraged by TWI . see the cognitive distortion of all-or-nothing-thinking - from that website the following:
"A cognitive distortion is an automatic way of repeatedly interpreting a situation that causes us to not consider other ways of thinking about it. When we over-rely on cognitive distortions, we usually interpret events in such a way that fuels emotions such as anxiety, depression, or anger. All-or-nothing thinking is one such distortion. All-or-nothing thinking refers to thinking in extremes. You are either a success or a failure. Your performance was totally good or totally bad. If you are not perfect, then you are a failure. This binary way of thinking does not account for shades of gray, and can be responsible for a great deal of negative evaluations of yourself and others."
And I like hearing from other folks who do NOT think like I do - it helps broaden my horizons - gives me a different perspective. It's not about how much I know or how much I can out-geek someone else when it comes to interpreting the Bible. It's about always developing critical thinking skills to better process what I study...When I look at Acts 17:2 where Paul reasoned with folks out of the scriptures and in verse 11 where folks searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true – I think there was a lot more going on than just quoting scripture or simply fact-checking if Paul cited a verse correctly. Paul reasoned – he must have employed arguments, logic, explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead – since this was not something clearly delineated in the Old Testament. That’s why the Berean Jews examined the scriptures – probably a lot of them were familiar with the verses Paul had referenced – but now they were reevaluating how to interpret them in light of the logic and explanations that Paul gave.
"Knowing a great deal is not the same as being smart; intelligence is not information alone but also judgment, the manner in which information is collected and used"....Carl Sagan
Edited by T-Boneagain with the revisions
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socks
Hi - thanks.
1. Fulfilled, and as it is said, a new covenant required a new priest.
Matthew 5:17–18 - Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.
Romans 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
And of course as Hebrews covers - 9:12 - He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.....and....7:23–24, The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
2. No.
In Acts 15 they essentially came up with a compromise of sorts for the Church, a determination that freed Gentiles from needing to observe the Law, going forward. It was their decision as to how to proceed and for them it left the topic of the church as a whole and specifically Jews still under discussion. In the teaching of the epistles however we see that there was - is - neither Jew nor Gentile and all believers in the faith are part of the same body and have the same Lord, Jesus Christ. So today there are not separate rules for each - 's'all one Church.
My point in bringing that into the discussion is that it makes it easier to see what was really going on and to see the struggle they had in learning and accepting it, in a very human way that I get because by the Old Covenant I AM A GENTILE, and coming into the Christian faith in Jesus Christ I have none of the Jewish religion that I observe, just as Gentiles then didn't either.....so I wouldn't automatically assume any of it because I'd have to be taught it first. They recognized NOT to do that, and in time learned it applied to them also - one God, one Lord, one Body, and one salvation in Christ.
Again, its just an easy way to understand the doctrine of the NT if I put myself into their shoes and nothing does that better than seeing the two groups of Jew and Gentile - one is God's called nation of people and - the other is "everyone else". I am in fact a Gentile from that viewpoint. But not in the "New covenant" of Jesus Christ through which all become one body, one Church, one group of called out people's. And in that new covenant Jesus Christ does not require me to be circumcised (although I am in heart separated and cleansed in this "new man" of Christ), or to tithe to the temple (although I can give and share freely of all that I am and have, in recognition of God's grace towards me) or to observe the Sabbath as a required day of "rest" and devotion (although I can now devote all my time and life, and everything I do, to God through Jesus Christ, "lord of the Sabbath")
Sunday? Saturday?
Hell, I was raised Catholic, pick one, I can do one day a week with a bunch of convoluted exceptions and work arounds, standing up, that's easy time.
In Christ, I'm on the clock 7 days a week, forever. I set aside time everyday for prayer, meditation, devotion. I need it. Charitable giving, on call service ministering - cell's off the hook now. I've gone from death to life, from condemned to celebrated son. I'm in the family business now and it's personal AND it's business. It's a way of life.
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Based on the revelation of Peter, Paul, the witness of others at the council and the reminding of the O.T. promise of the Gentiles becoming part of God's people, it became very clear to them that Gentiles were receiving salvation through faith in Jesus Christ without any observance of the Law, and certainly circumcision which had brought the issue to a head and led to their meeting to discuss. This clarifies all of the practices of the Law - if I were a Gentile at that time, it would not have meant I would STOP doing some or all of the Law (because I wouldn't have been observing any of it, not being Jewish), it would have meant I wouldn't START doing ANY of it. The few things they did cite in their letter to the Church at that time appears to basically be a call out to the pre-Mosaic law "laws" or standards of Gods', and there's clearly no tie in to the role of such things being a part of the "new" faith, rather the inference that they are a reflection of their new lives, in Christ. I do think that gives a logical foundation for what I read later in Paul's epistles, that the spirit of God was leading them to understand the long arc of history.
The decision of Acts 15 reflects a thoughtful Church leadership and growing members who were balancing between the old and the new - some had known Jesus face to face, followed Him, heard Him, knew Him. Others had heard the testimony of those people and then others and believed. Others like Paul had their own direct receipt of the message of Christ. All of the original group and the first generations of converts were Jewish - and now they see the message expanding out by God's direction and revelation. From my perspective today, it would seem reasonable in the narrative of Acts that the experience of Pentecost ushers in the "new covenant" of Christ in dramatic fashion and it grows from there. What it meant appears to have been a rolling out of their own knowledge, awareness and understanding.
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Waxit
Can you please elaborate your understanding of:
Romans 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Also dont get me wrong I am not saying that there is a specific day set aside for you to rest and worship
and the rest of the day you are supposed to forget God. No! we must be in constant communication with God
But God also ordained a specific day so that families and working people can rest from their labours
Other people may be forced to work to provide for their families- Most people are engaged with some type
of work to feed themselves- So God made it a universal command for an appointment all christians to
specifically set aside the 7th day (Saturday) corresponding to our modern calendar for collective
rest and worship and teaching
The early christians had direct knowledge of the word of God being taught by the apostles
who were directly taugh by Jesus Christ (The Lord of The Sabbath)
Shouldnt we follow the example set by the early christians in accordance with the word of God
Lord of the Sabbath doesnt mean Jesus Christ did what he liked but Lord of Sabbath here means-
He stood for the Sabbath. It is like Jesus Christ was King of the Sabbath
Jesus Christ would never break the 4th Commandment of God (Exodus 20)
Did you know that the 7th day sabbath was never in question by jews or gentiles?
That's why the sabbath never surfaced as an issue. Circumcision was but it was
settled because as you rightly said Paul preached that circumcision was the circumcision
of the heart.
In regards to the debate on whether the newly converted gentiles should conform to what the jewish
christians were doing (circumcision)in Acts 21:25
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that
they observe no such thing (circumcision), save only that they keep themselves from things
offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
There is absolutely nothing state above in regards to the keeping of the sabbath
Why??? Because Sabbath was never an issue
They were unified and of one heart in keeping the sabbath
Rom 10:
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
By not keeping the sabbath, Gentile christians of today contradict Rom 10:12 essentially saying we have a new understanding from the jews
No! There is nothing mentioned about sabbath in Acts 21:25 - it was purely relating to the circumcision.
This is a classic case of where one can run into the trap of getting something out of context and applying it to something else which is unrelated
The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership
Acts 13:
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
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Twinky
Not "all Christians," Waxit. All Israelites (ie, not just Judeans or "Jews") - yes. All Christians - no.
Can you tell us why this issue (above all issues) is important to you? I ask, because there are so many other things we've discussed here at the Café that appear more relevant to our daily lives.
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WordWolf
Waxit:
"The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership
Acts 13:
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God."
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[Actually, if this is the only place you're getting it from, you're jumping to a conclusion.
The synagogue was open on "the Sabbath" for prayer and talking about God. That was expected among the practicing Jews who were not Christians. When some Jews believed and became Christians, the "default" for them automatically would have been to meet on the same day unless they were unable to do so. There's also nothing shocking about a "Christian Jew" going to the synagogue to hear the Torah (Old Testament) being read. That was the only place to do it, and there were no printing presses so no Bibles at home to read from.
So, unless they were prevented from doing so, "Christian Jews" would show up at the synagogue on "the Sabbath", listen to the Torah being read, and speaking to devout Jews about the Messiah and preaching Christ to them. They'd want devout Jews to know the coming Messiah had arrived, after all. It's also not terribly shocking that some Gentiles who'd want to hear would follow news of "Christian Jews" (the disciples) would end up near, around, or otherwise at the synagogue to hear. That's where they were, that's where they were teaching, and that's WHEN they were teaching.
All of that is simple human nature (force of habit, this is where the Torah is being read so I listen there, this is where they need to hear, so I speak there), and it's not necessary to even get into "Israel was told to respect the Sabbath" to have a reasonable explanation. ]
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socks
I think that states my understanding and thoughts on it, from the "bottom line", WW.
It would account for the shift of days over history, too. As Christianity moved away from it's "homeland" of the middle east and the roots of Jewish history and religious practice days could certainly shift, Saturday to Sunday, to Wednesday, to any day of the week for that matter. There really doesn't appear to be a clear order for the new church to maintain their past religious practices over time. I don't put a lot of weight on what they DIDN'T tell the Gentiles if the idea is they didn't because it would already be known or an assumed practice, because if they were Gentiles like ME, they wouldn't have known ANYthing about any of it.
One of the things that strikes me about the way the revelation of Christ and the understanding of it developed is that it .... seems .... like it ended up requiring the passage of time and events in order for it to be fully hmmm...."realized" by the Church. I mean - while under the direct immersion of the Jewish faith, near or in Jerusalem, surrounded by history of the Jews any move into a "new" body of called out believers would naturally be influenced by the Jewish roots as you're pointing out WW. It only makes sense. Then that changed in ways that perhaps they never envisioned - Constantine converting? Roman prominence in the establishment of the new church? There were some unprecedented events that moved it away from being a persecuted cult to being essentially a state religion of Rome. Some baggage came with that and not all the changes over time were good but it DID under score the essential basics of Christ and in ways that it would have been difficult to embrace in the years or Peter and Paul. I think that adds to the incredible insight they DID get and their ability to change according to what they believed God was showing them.
Many of the things that Paul reproved and instructed the Corinthian church on correcting read very much like the kinds of things that could develop in a social and political caste system that moved away from the fundamentals.of Christ, the servant leader, Messiah and emphasized seniority, heritage, position, etc.
waxit, I think you make some very good points and we'd probably meet in the middle - if you go with Saturday over Sunday there's a basis for that just as there could be for Sunday over Saturday. Whatever the Jewish history was would certainly have a place of prominence because it's the history up until Christ. The coming of the Messiah formed a new era, one that was not anticipated as it came to be in the form of the "church" of the called out followers of Jesus Christ.
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Twinky
As well as what WW indicates, it's likely that people worked all day every day and the "sabbath" was the only day off. The only day the men weren't about their business of tending cattle, fields, trading, etc; women more likely in the home tending children, or doing household tasks, or maybe trading. In the evenings, people would eat at home and generally stay home (agricultural community: early to bed, early to rise) or hang out with nearby friends. The times for meeting would be market days (which may have happened on most days, but it's still work, not time to discuss at length) and at "weekends" ie sabbath days. So when else would the Gentiles, or anybody else for that matter, have time to discuss further?
I think that what's more important here is that some (but by no means all) of the Jews of Antioch were at that time willing to hear, to consider; and that the community was enlightened and open enough that Gentiles could also hear the message.
It might be interesting also to consider where this next reported meeting took place. "Almost the whole city came together" - but not necessarily in the synagogue (smallish building) nor in a temple (with a Court of the Gentiles). In fact, almost certainly not, because the holier-than-thou Jews then got ticked off at Paul & Co.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered [where??] to hear the word of the Lord. 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him..
Maybe in the agora/market place? We know from Acts 17 that Paul "reasoned" with people in the market place, having made himself unpopular in the synagogue.
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