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chockfull
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17 hours ago, chockfull said:

...From just a basic logical analysis of the classes and content, it is a reasonable path to form a conclusion regarding the history of the content and to reach the idea that it is a group sham as opposed to God delivering original content to a group.  It doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny at all basically.

If there is a conclusion to be drawn it is that the content in the Ways classes are not magic in producing false claims, and are basically a sham orchestrated by people protecting money power and position who know better and definitely know what they are doing with the content.

Protect the $65M in assets amassed by the first predator.

y a

 

 

Good post, Chockfull !!!!


And you got me to reevaluate wierwille’s doctrine from another angle. wierwille’s self-promotion was camouflaged by the persona that he was a simple clergyman frustrated with the lack of answers and power in his life until supposedly God spoke to him.


In the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.


I believe anyone who is NOT enamored with this myth of wierwille should be able to see through his smoke and mirrors. Comparing wierwille’s body of work with that of E.W. Bullinger, it becomes clear that wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist. It is intriguing to note wierwille attempted to preemptively avoid the issue of pirating intellectual property by occasionally saying something along the lines that much of what he taught was nothing new, he simply pieced together what he learned from others and with God’s guidance made it accurate in the process.


So, I decided to suspend my criticism of wierwille’s flagrant plagiarism and examine his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process. If indeed he had God’s help then we should not find any errors or logical fallacies – in either the exact copying of another person’s material or in wierwille's supposedly  “correcting" , “revising” …or in any way modifying another person’s material. In other words, the finished product of wierwille’s doctrine (which also goes by the pet name “The Word” – an affectionate term used by big wierwille-fans    ) should be error-free and faultless in every way. 


I did not have to go very far in this reexamination – here are two examples straight out of PFAL:


1. Example of wierwille copying another person’s error: The four crucified with Jesus. This is a distinct error first propounded by E.W. Bullinger. To keep it brief – I will not go into great detail over this bizarre teaching which has already been laboriously dissected on Grease Spot in numerous threads by many folks. Suffice it to say here that given what we know of how the Gospels were written – not only from independent research but even from passages within each of the four Gospels – we find that the Gospels were produced by assembling information collected from many sources. For example, note the word “compile” in   Luke 1 ESV     https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1&version=ESV
1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.”


I think the erroneous four crucified doctrine that wierwille copied from Bullinger was one of wierwille’s favorite ploys to distinguish himself from other Bible teachers. It plays on a false-fear that you’ve been missing a lot of info – almost as if to say   “all those other Bible teachers missed there were actually four crucified with Jesus. What else have they missed? Stick with me and you’ll find out lots of other things that even many Bible scholars have missed.

Besides the fact that the Gospel writers compiled information from many sources the reality that there are four DIFFERENT narratives of the life of Jesus Christ represents four DIFFERENT accounts of events and experiences – each Gospel presenting the details through a sequence of the author’s own choosing. The sequence is always linear – in a straightforward manner – even if there’s an extremely long protracted timeline such as    John 1       https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=ESV starting off with  “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”


wierwille’s argument for there being four crucified with Jesus depends on him using the dubious “scripture build-up” method – piecemealing passages from across the four Gospels as well as mangling and obfuscating definitions of the Greek words for “thief” and “malefactor” to try and suggest there were more than two crucified with Jesus. wierwille’s teaching on this in the PFAL class reminds me of the film “Pulp Fiction” - a 1994 American crime film written and directed by Quentin Tarantino – the film’s narrative is told out of chronological order and follows three main interrelated stories that each have a different protagonist. In the case of Bullinger’s / wierwille’s teaching of the four crucified with Jesus – their misconstrued narrative is told in an awkward chopped-up chronological order as if by someone who suffered a severe trauma to the head and now has lapses in memory  - -zeroing in on the different Greek words used in each Gospel when referring to the others crucified with Jesus…Bullinger and wierwille also assume that the Gospel writers were not mentally advanced enough to understand the concept of four, since there is no mention of four criminals at the crucifixion scene in any Gospel.,,even though the disciples seemed perfectly capable of other mathematical challenges - like enumerating the number of days/nights Jesus would be in the grave - three  ... or to mention their own number - twelve disciples.

With all this finagling of who said what when about who, it seems to me wierwille was really playing an intellectual shell game involving sleight-of-thought, in which various words and ideas are moved about with the skillful adeptness of a double-talking used car salesman, to the amazement of PFAL students. Do you know what this means? wierwille’s big act of being so concerned for the accuracy and integrity of “The Word” is just that – an act! It’s a sham !

How does butchering the Gospels in a piecemeal fashion to concoct an alternate version of the crucifixion scene reflect precisely and honestly what really happened?

wierwille attempted to show us what other Bible scholars had apparently missed. His spiel  was a mixture of sense and nonsense that appeared to be earnest and meaningful and at times was a rapid patter of deliberately evasive  ambiguous language and elaborate and passionate but confusing explanations. What wierwille missed was the importance of the central figure at the crucifixion – the Lord Jesus Christ !!!!


…I think wierwille was just making a mountain out of a molehill and being ignorant of how people relate an incident. Four different people could have witnessed a hit-and-run incident and give four different descriptions of the vehicle that hit the victim. One person says it was a white SUV. Another says they thought it was a white Ford Bronco, a third witness says the SUV looked gray. And the fourth witness replays the dash camera in her car and it shows a 1998 light gray Dodge Durango SUV – which eye-witnesses could have mistaken for white since the incident happened at dusk and colors often appear different in low light…To one Gospel writer, the two men crucified with Jesus were described as thieves. To another writer, they’re malefactors – or evildoers. Even wierwille admitted in PFAL that each author of any book in the Bible used their own vocabulary and style when writing by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. 


Also, many Bible scholars have pointed out that each Gospel has a distinct viewpoint and a particular purpose to portray certain unique aspects of Jesus Christ – and as such logic would dictate that the proper literary flow is to simply read each Gospel all the way through as a whole piece, to understand the author’s original intent.


There are many more inaccuracies and logical fallacies concerning lots of other Bible stuff in PFAL  - so you might want to check out:
 Raf’s thread    Actual Errors in PFAL  

and Mark Clarke’s thread More blatant PFAL errors    

 

= = = = = 


2. Example of wierwille screwing up another person’s correct interpretation: Another thing that wierwille “borrowed” from Bullinger but then he mangled in PFAL is from    II Peter 1: 20, 21     https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=II+Peter+1&version=KJV      


20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


In Bullinger’s book “How to Enjoy the Bible” Bullinger says in regard to “of any private interpretation”, is that the little word “of” is genitive of origin – and is simply saying Scripture wasn’t CONCEIVED by anyone’s imagination or personal interpretation. Bullinger goes on from there to cover some basic hermeneutics – which is the study of the methodological principles of interpretation of the Bible. I believe Bullinger got that part right.


In PFAL however, wierwille muddied up II Peter 1:20 and said The Bible should not be privately interpretated – in other words, it’s a no-no to have or offer a personal interpretation or opinion……there is to be no “I think it means this”. wierwille goes on to say that if no private interpretation is allowed than the Bible must interpret itself.

Just pause for a moment and think about what an affront that is to logic, linguistics, historians, sociologists, anthropologists, and philosophers – not to mention Bible scholars, translators and textual researchers. We’re talking about a compilation of 66 different books written by 40 different authors over the course of an approximately 1500-year period, using basically 3 different languages, spanning a variety of cultural, political, and geographical settings. Needless to say wierwille's idea that the Bible interprets itself is silly...absurd...laughable...and I can't believe I actually bought into it at one point in my life. In my defense I will say I was young and naïve. critical thinking schmitical thinking.  :biglaugh: 


In PFAL, wierwille does briefly get into some of the keys to the proper interpretation of the Bible mentioned by Bullinger (and which you’ll also find in many affordable paperbacks written by competent and better qualified authors – besides the more technical books of many systematic theologies written by real scholars)... But here's something puzzling - in PFAL wierwille tries to make the case that you can’t go wrong using these “simple” keys to see how the Bible interprets itself – but truth be told, observing wierwille in live teachings or even speaking extemporaneously he often failed to adhere to the very interpretive keys that he promoted in PFAL. He’d ignore the context of a passage, fumble with the definition of a Greek word, proof-text, twist things up in logical fallacies – and don't forget his go-to tactic for pulling answers out of thin air to justify his absurd interpretation of a verse “Father showed me this.”  It's like an actor going off-script. If there was truth in scamming (well, that's gotta be a contradiction of terms :rolleyes:  ) I could picture wierwille saying "I'm not a real doctor but I play one on TV - if you happen to be watching a video of the PFAL class."

 

So reevaluating his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process. Assuming that God Almighty is an infinite, perfect, omniscient, truthful, and rational being who is absolutely capable of clearly communicating any type of information to other rational beings - and given that wierwille's body of work contains numerous inaccuracies, contradictions, and logical fallacies - leads me to conclude wierwille made a false claim. God did NOT guide wierwille to produce a perfect body of work. Wierwille must have lied and/or had been operating under a serious delusion.

 

* * * * *


To understand wierwille’s origin story is to peer through the smoke and mirrors of wierwille-mythology and comprehend the fascinating backstory – a complicated narrative unfolding on Grease Spot that still continues to reveal stuff about the narcissistic megalomanic, unabashed plagiarist and self-deluded cult-leader. If all this is news to you, then you might want to check out:
WordWolf’s thread  The Way Living in Wonderland  

and Skyrider's thread The Wierwille Legacy: Who will write the book?

 

* * * * * 

PS: Hey, you folks still involved with The Way International – you’ve got some reading AND thinking to do! Besides reading the threads that I gave the links to – you should check out the book “Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International
https://www.amazon.com/Undertow-Escape-Fundamentalism-Control-International-ebook/dp/B06ZY8HVKS   on Grease Spot the author goes by the name Penworks. She also started a thread about her book  - click here > https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24360-undertow-escaping-from-the-fundamentalism-and-cult-control-of-the-way-international/    

She worked in the research department of TWI. There’s some very revealing stuff in there about the shady inner workings of The Way International and how wierwille who was supposedly so concerned about “the integrity and accuracy of The Word” had no qualms about pressuring the research department to mistranslate a Greek word so it would substantiate what he thought a passage should say. and what about his dictum “ private interpretation of the Bible is not allowed “? I guess it’s okay for wierwille to do that. :evildenk:
 

And while you're thinking about ordering Penworks’ book you could always do some light reading  :biglaugh:   of another thread started by Penworks - Evidence: Letters VPW wrote to the Way Corps       https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24319-evidence-letters-vpw-wrote-to-the-way-corps/

 besides the comments of other Grease Spotters you can also visit an independent website that has a lot of TWI info  including way corps household newsletters - click here  >     https://sites.google.com/site/corpsnewsletters/system/app/pages/subPages?path=/home   - be forewarned these letters are not for the faint of heart – if you’re a big fan of wierwille you’ll probably be shocked at how narcissistic, manipulative, vengeful, and berating personality wierwille was – evidenced by his own words to the way corps, his most devoted followers.


I encourage you to read…and thinkfully engage your cognitive skills. Live a little dangerously  :biglaugh:  - try ignoring what leadership tells you to think about Grease Spot. Think for yourself…If the observations, arguments and experiences expressed on Grease Spot seem ridiculous and unbelievable to you, then blow us off and return to your “idyllic” life in TWI. But if there’s anything that resonates with you – then take your time to mull things over… ...Back in 1986, once we realized there was something really wrong with The Way International (even though we couldn’t actually nail it down yet) my wife and I took several months of prayer, deep reflection, crucial Bible studies, reviewing of Way-doctrines and lots of intense conversations over our individual experiences, doubts, questions, concerns and feelings before we mutually decided to leave TWI…there was no Internet back then. We had to fend for ourselves...we had to start thinking like adults  - which is a really odd thing to say - but because we were so indoctrinated - thinking like an adult was trained out of us...being fully indoctrinated forces you to have a childlike dependency on leadership. In other words, your intellect, emotions, aspirations, hopes and dreams are on a short leash - you lack independence or autonomy due to being strongly controlled by another. 

You owe it to yourself and your loved ones to take a long and honest look at wierwille’s real origin story and then decide if that should remain as part of your own story. ...Take your time and be smart and careful if you do decide to leave...your safety and security ...and freedom is our utmost concern for you !  Your allegiance should be to God and Jesus Christ and that you serve them with a clear conscience. You do not owe The Way International anything...for as much as they have exploited you, I think they owe you a lot !

 

that's all for now, folks  - - peace to all ! :wave:

Edited by T-Bone
typos and formatting, plus I crucified four editors after they told me my post can interpret itself...what do you think their computers looked like? I bet they couldn't win a beauty contest...I wish you could have read my original post - it's just so -so.
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One of the things I see Wierwille doing time after time is basing some aspect of his teaching on someone like Bullinger, but completely misunderstanding the point. Here's an example that I found that I posted on the "Snow Job" thread some years ago:

Quote

Wierwille taught in The Word's Way (not sure if it made it into PFAL itself) chapter "The Lord's Brethren" that the brothers of Jesus specifically named in the gospels could not have been Joseph's sons from a previous marriage. His reasoning was that an older brother would have invalidated Jesus' claim to the throne of David. The only problem with that was that in another collateral chapter "The Geneology of Jesus" Wierwille teaches that the geneology in Matthew, the "royal" geneology is Mary's, while the geneology in Luke is Joseph's. Therefore, the existance of any of Joseph's older sons would be irrelevant to any claim to the throne of David.

If one looks through Bullinger's appendixes and come to the one regarding the Lord's Brethren, one would see that Bullinger states the same thing that Wierwille did, dismissing the possibility that James, Joses, Simon and Judas were Jesus' older half-brothers by Joseph's first wife, since their existance would invalidate Jesus' claim to the Davidic throne. However, Bullinger wrote in his appendixes that he believed that the geneology in Matthew was Joseph's, and the one in Luke was Mary's, making his position consistant at least.

To me it looks like Wierwille simply parrotted what Bullinger said about the brethren, without fully understanding Bullinger's reasoning behind it, and subsequently making no sense. Just one of several examples where Wierwille apparently didn't understand what Bullinger was saying, but liked his conclusions.

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1 hour ago, Oakspear said:

One of the things I see Wierwille doing time after time is basing some aspect of his teaching on someone like Bullinger, but completely misunderstanding the point. Here's an example that I found that I posted on the "Snow Job" thread some years ago:

I think it's what's called "narcissist mirroring".  He's copying like a child copies an adult, but lacking the ability to develop his own identity he just looks like a copy-cat.  Completely unable to "make it his own" as is said in TWI and ever really understand.  No sunesis going on.

The WAP class I believe made fun of those out there who "parrot" their teachers . . . but that's exactly what TWI teaches it's followers to do.

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I take no pleasure in exposing TWIs iniquity.  Mostly distance from it helps me personally.  But without it exposed history repeats and a new generation of lives end up just like the last one with 98% of graduated leadership in the org not associating themselves any longer due to cult like operations and control and false doctrine eroding basic family values.

They continue to lie and whitewash because their standard of living and income and power and influence would not be what it is without that.  
 

in this sense they are the true children of VP

Edited by chockfull
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As I read through I noticed one more discrepancy.  VP in one work speaks of his first receiving into manifestation Holy Spirit (autocorrect caps that) in his office in Payne Ohio where God told him the teach him Word 1st century line.  But in another area it is the JE Stiles story at Oral Robert’s Tulsa Oklahoma convention.  Which was the first RHST practiced by VP?

Something that transformational for him and all subsequent cult followers should be even more clear than 4 crucified or the day Jesus died, no?

Also, I at one time owned a copy of JE Stiles book on the Holy Spirit, and can personally say that my assessment was over 70% of the RHST book was directly copied from Stiles book.  VPs account of writing the RHST book involve checking into a motel and existing on a diet of grapes for 10 days.

I wonder if the diet was a subconscious attempt to cleanse himself from the plagiarism lol.  

Edited by chockfull
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4 hours ago, chockfull said:

As I read through I noticed one more discrepancy.  VP in one work speaks of his first receiving into manifestation Holy Spirit (autocorrect caps that) in his office in Payne Ohio where God told him the teach him Word 1st century line.  But in another area it is the JE Stiles story at Oral Robert’s Tulsa Oklahoma convention.  Which was the first RHST practiced by VP?

Something that transformational for him and all subsequent cult followers should be even more clear than 4 crucified or the day Jesus died, no?

I don't recall him saying he SIT'd first in his Payne office; do you recall where he said that? I would not at all be surprised if he contradicted himself on this though. 

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10 hours ago, chockfull said:

Also, I at one time owned a copy of JE Stiles book on the Holy Spirit, and can personally say that my assessment was over 70% of the RHST book was directly copied from Stiles book.  VPs account of writing the RHST book involve checking into a motel and existing on a diet of grapes for 10 days.

I wonder if the diet was a subconscious attempt to cleanse himself from the plagiarism lol.  

This has the makings of a movie – Grapes of Wrath 2: Lie Harder. (alright so I plagiarized from the Die Hard film series... ... guess I should try harder  :rolleyes:  )…in case you slept through some of your high school classes The Grapes of Wrath is a John Steinbeck novel published in 1939. The story is set during the Great Depression and focuses on the Joads a poor family of tenant farmers driven from their Oklahoma home by drought, economic hardship, agriculture industry changes and bank foreclosures. Due to their nearly hopeless situation and being  trapped in the Dust Bowl, the Joads set out for California along with thousands of other “Okies” seeking jobs, land, dignity and a future.


In Grapes of Wrath 2: Lie Harder the story is set some 18 or 28 years or days and times and hours later and focuses on wierwille a pathological liar and a poor excuse for a pastor who had resigned (or was fired) from the Van Wert Church and driven from a clear conscience by an exceeding abundantly above normal desire for fame, fortune, power and pleasure set out to build his own cult - which wound up being in his own backyard - the family farm (how convenient)  along with thousands of followers including one Okie who for a short time took over this Mickey Mouse operation. In the film adaptation, there are no credits at the end of the movie because wierwille always takes all the credit...the moral of the story? wierwille came into his own by what other people own. Plagiarism is the key to success...If at first you don't succeed, lie, lie, and lie again.
 

Edited by T-Bone
Typos and Formatting 2: Edit Harder
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17 hours ago, chockfull said:

I take no pleasure in exposing TWIs iniquity.  Mostly distance from it helps me personally.  But without it exposed history repeats and a new generation of lives end up just like the last one with 98% of graduated leadership in the org not associating themselves any longer due to cult like operations and control and false doctrine eroding basic family values.

They continue to lie and whitewash because their standard of living and income and power and influence would not be what it is without that.  
 

in this sense they are the true children of VP

Why it's almost like knowing that the love of money is the root of all evil!

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Lmao TBone.  :jump:

The Payne quote was from the Elena Whiteside thread maybe her book but a couple others referenced there...

I know, they could fix everything with the word faux.  Faux is popular, faux is in style, faux is the sizzle!  Faux is the plagiarists key whitewash word to keep the truth in things.

The Way of Faux Abundance and Faux Power

Faux Power for Faux Abundant Living

:dance:

Wait I see the problem. The truth in advertising causes it to lose it's appeal...

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11 hours ago, Rocky said:

Why it's almost like knowing that the love of money is the root of all evil!

Vankin pointed out NPDs want to extract money from people for Narcissistic Supply.  Once they have the money taken from others, that money has already served its purpose.  

 

Just . . . Interesting 

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