Victor plagiarized poetry ALL. THE. TIME. The first time I noticed this was in a fellowship meeting that was held forth in our house because the coordinator's house was briefly occupied by devil spirits. Instead of the coordinator holding forth with his own teaching, he played a tape of one from vp. Victor opened the sermon with an unattributed poem. The official TWI supplemental printed materials also included the poem with no attribution.
Victor never claimed he wrote the poem he read, but he never gave credit, honor or tribute where it was due, either. The way the poem was read, how it was situated strategically in the sermon, the context... EVERYTHING about victor's reading and reprinting this poem implied and suggested that it was written by the little man reading it.
I remember asking the "leaders" and "teachers" about the poem's author - was it vp's? They shrugged and changed the subject. I looked it up on my phone to find it was a woman. The sycophants, still reeling from Vic's tremendous holding forth, became obviously irritated with my finding. Their urge to lovingly correct me was palpable.
Apologists for vp's serial plagiarism usually cop out with, "What does is matter?" Well, it matters EVERYTHING!
Plagiarism is a lie. It is thievery. It is deception. Why do this? Why choose to prove you are the liar, the thief, the deceiver?
I've heard he did that with "The Touch of the Master's Hand." Was that the poem you were thinking of in this case?
'Twas battered and scarred, and the auctioneer
Thought it scarcely worth his while
To waste much time on the old violin,
But held it up with a smile.
"What am I bidden, good folks," he cried,
"Who'll start the bidding for me?"
"A dollar, a dollar. Then two! Only two?
Two dollars, and who'll make it three?"
"Three dollars, once; three dollars, twice;
Going for three…" But NO,
From the room, far back, a grey-haired man
Came forward and picked up the bow;
Then wiping the dust from the old violin,
And tightening the loosened strings,
He played a melody pure and sweet,
As a caroling angel sings.
The music ceased, and the auctioneer,
With a voice that was quiet and low,
Said: "What am I bid for the old violin?"
And he held it up with the bow.
"A thousand dollars, and who'll make it two?
Two thousand! And who'll make it three?
Three thousand, once; three thousand, twice,
And going and gone!" said he.
The people cheered, but some of them cried,
"We do not quite understand.
What changed its worth?" Swift came the reply:
"The touch of the master's hand."
And many a man with life out of tune,
And battered and scarred with sin,
Is auctioned cheap to the thoughtless crowd
Much like the old violin.
A "mess of pottage," a glass of wine,
A game — and he travels on.
He is "going" once, and "going" twice,
He's "going" and almost "gone."
But The Master comes, and the foolish crowd
Never can quite understand
The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought
By the touch of The Master's hand.
In my teens I was told about this person who was believing for red drapes in an apartment or something. This story was told to me directly a number of times and I believed the persons telling it knew the person in the story looking for red drapes. Why else would they tell it this way? Later, thumbing through a book called PFAL, I realized that they took that story from VPW, or behaved as if they had had that experience. Whole fellowships are sitting around experiencing non-experiences.
I just googled "Anvil of God's Word" . . . that's one I heard a lot.
The Anvil — God's Word
(attributed to John Clifford)
LAST EVE I passed beside a blacksmith's door,
And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;
Then, looking in, I saw upon the floor
Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.
" How many anvils have you had, " said I,
" To wear and batter all these hammers so? "
" Just one, " said he, and then, with twinkling eye,
" The anvil wears the hammers out, you know. "
And so, thought I, the anvil of God's Word,
For ages skeptic blows have beat upon;
Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
The anvil is unharmed — the hammers gone.
Edited by WordWolf (This poem has not been found in his writings, so authorship is unproven.)
I've heard he did that with "The Touch of the Master's Hand." Was that the poem you were thinking of in this case?
It could have been, but I just don't remember now. The notes and photos are in a phone I no longer possess. There is a channel on YouTube that has hundreds of recordings of Vic's sermons. Some record this exact thing we're talking about - reciting poetry without attribution or credit. (Anyone can find out for themselves, if they don't BELEEEVE this discussion.)
What I do remember is being so disturbed by what was going on in that moment. When the tape of vic's holding forth ended, I announced the name of the author to the fellowship, hoping someone else might have been as curious as I. But, no. I felt nothing but the stinging darts of silent contempt and disdain, presumably for outing vpw, but more likely for not having a dull mind, the type of mind that results from allowing "rubbing in by repetition."
The fellowship I attended was comprised entirely of my ex wife's family. Their leader (their "father in the word") and his wife went Corps in the late '70s or early 80s. They were family corps around 85-86, I think. They cling to victor and his writings even more fervently than Mike - they would NEVER read or study any other version of the Bible than the KJV. And they would say, "What does it matter? You heard the Word and Will of God today. Be thankful."
They worked diligently to renew my mind for me by rubbing into it repeatedly that there is only one true cosmological/spiritual hierarchical order:
They worked diligently to renew my mind for me by rubbing into it repeatedly that there is only one true cosmological/spiritual hierarchical order:
God
Jesus Christ
Paul
Victor
That's the order they want the average follower to have in mind. The order for the way corps is God - Board of Directors (as the head of the body) - way corps. Jesus Christ is a name sake who is sitting at the right hand of God chillaxin. There is to be no interatcion, praise, worship, honor, or relationship with Jesus Christ according to the way international.
That's the order they want the average follower to have in mind. The order for the way corps is God - Board of Directors (as the head of the body) - way corps. Jesus Christ is a name sake who is sitting at the right hand of God chillaxin. There is to be no interatcion, praise, worship, honor, or relationship with Jesus Christ according to the way international.
Wow uncanny how this is exactly the same structure as set up by the Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses.
God -> Apostle -> Leaders for the Mormons
God -> Watchtower Society -> Leaders for Jehovahs Witnesses
The title of this thread is not only true, but it is pants-....ing hilarious to me. It could be the title of a skit from Mr. Show, The State, Kids in the Hall, K&P.... or the title of an article in The Onion.
I mean who in the actual f#ck actually plagiarizes poetry?! At least one human actually did! Wow. Just, wow. Sad and funny.
Edited by Nathan_Jr Censorship is sad and funny, too. But I get it.
The title of this thread is not only true, but it is pants-....ing hilarious to me. It could be the title of a skit from Mr. Show, The State, Kids in the Hall, K&P.... or the title of an article in The Onion.
I mean who in the actual f#ck actually plagiarizes poetry?! At least one human actually did! Wow. Just, wow. Sad and funny.
At least 2 humans- you forgot the convicted criminal on Death Row did it, also.
I don't know, I don't think using an existing model for creative inspiration necessarily constitutes plagiarism. That's not what Wierwille did. He just outright plagiarized other sources and claimed them to be his own.
Waysider your statement is exactly where the Way is trying to position ole VP the plagiarist lecher.
They are trying to sell him as creative inspiration from God not lying and stealing from low morals.
The main issue with the plagiarism is that it cements lying stealing and political moves in as corporate culture - the unwritten rules.
Every following President has also lied with zero remorse that is their MO - they don’t value truth they value political capital.
They lie, cover up the sins of the past, double down on the existing infrastructure and keep on keeping on. They know no other way.
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WordWolf
I've heard he did that with "The Touch of the Master's Hand." Was that the poem you were thinking of in this case?
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WordWolf
Myra Brooks Welch wrote "The Touch of the Master's Hand."
The Touch of the Master's Hand
Thought it scarcely worth his while
To waste much time on the old violin,
But held it up with a smile.
"What am I bidden, good folks," he cried,
"Who'll start the bidding for me?"
"A dollar, a dollar. Then two! Only two?
Two dollars, and who'll make it three?"
"Three dollars, once; three dollars, twice;
Going for three…" But NO,
From the room, far back, a grey-haired man
Came forward and picked up the bow;
Then wiping the dust from the old violin,
And tightening the loosened strings,
He played a melody pure and sweet,
As a caroling angel sings.
The music ceased, and the auctioneer,
With a voice that was quiet and low,
Said: "What am I bid for the old violin?"
And he held it up with the bow.
"A thousand dollars, and who'll make it two?
Two thousand! And who'll make it three?
Three thousand, once; three thousand, twice,
And going and gone!" said he.
The people cheered, but some of them cried,
"We do not quite understand.
What changed its worth?" Swift came the reply:
"The touch of the master's hand."
And many a man with life out of tune,
And battered and scarred with sin,
Is auctioned cheap to the thoughtless crowd
Much like the old violin.
A "mess of pottage," a glass of wine,
A game — and he travels on.
He is "going" once, and "going" twice,
He's "going" and almost "gone."
But The Master comes, and the foolish crowd
Never can quite understand
The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought
By the touch of The Master's hand.
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WordWolf
The Anvil — God's Word
And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;
Then, looking in, I saw upon the floor
Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.
" How many anvils have you had, " said I,
" To wear and batter all these hammers so? "
" Just one, " said he, and then, with twinkling eye,
" The anvil wears the hammers out, you know. "
And so, thought I, the anvil of God's Word,
For ages skeptic blows have beat upon;
Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
The anvil is unharmed — the hammers gone.
Edited by WordWolf(This poem has not been found in his writings, so authorship is unproven.)
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Nathan_Jr
It could have been, but I just don't remember now. The notes and photos are in a phone I no longer possess. There is a channel on YouTube that has hundreds of recordings of Vic's sermons. Some record this exact thing we're talking about - reciting poetry without attribution or credit. (Anyone can find out for themselves, if they don't BELEEEVE this discussion.)
What I do remember is being so disturbed by what was going on in that moment. When the tape of vic's holding forth ended, I announced the name of the author to the fellowship, hoping someone else might have been as curious as I. But, no. I felt nothing but the stinging darts of silent contempt and disdain, presumably for outing vpw, but more likely for not having a dull mind, the type of mind that results from allowing "rubbing in by repetition."
The fellowship I attended was comprised entirely of my ex wife's family. Their leader (their "father in the word") and his wife went Corps in the late '70s or early 80s. They were family corps around 85-86, I think. They cling to victor and his writings even more fervently than Mike - they would NEVER read or study any other version of the Bible than the KJV. And they would say, "What does it matter? You heard the Word and Will of God today. Be thankful."
They worked diligently to renew my mind for me by rubbing into it repeatedly that there is only one true cosmological/spiritual hierarchical order:
God
Jesus Christ
Paul
Victor
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OldSkool
That's the order they want the average follower to have in mind. The order for the way corps is God - Board of Directors (as the head of the body) - way corps. Jesus Christ is a name sake who is sitting at the right hand of God chillaxin. There is to be no interatcion, praise, worship, honor, or relationship with Jesus Christ according to the way international.
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chockfull
Wow uncanny how this is exactly the same structure as set up by the Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses.
God -> Apostle -> Leaders for the Mormons
God -> Watchtower Society -> Leaders for Jehovahs Witnesses
I guess cults will cult.
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Rocky
Because, of course, The Word (according to Victor) takes the place of the absent Christ.
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OldSkool
Ahhh! Bingo!!!
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Nathan_Jr
The title of this thread is not only true, but it is pants-....ing hilarious to me. It could be the title of a skit from Mr. Show, The State, Kids in the Hall, K&P.... or the title of an article in The Onion.
I mean who in the actual f#ck actually plagiarizes poetry?! At least one human actually did! Wow. Just, wow. Sad and funny.
Edited by Nathan_JrCensorship is sad and funny, too. But I get it.
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WordWolf
At least 2 humans- you forgot the convicted criminal on Death Row did it, also.
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Nathan_Jr
Right. I did forget. I should have renewed my mind. At least two.... criminals....
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WordWolf
People who are OK with committing felonies on humans may have no problem plagiarizing poems, and might be able to rationalize or justify it easily.
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Rocky
I posit that they are well able to do both. Of course, using a figure of speech, that's exactly what you did too.
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chockfull
Waysider your statement is exactly where the Way is trying to position ole VP the plagiarist lecher.
They are trying to sell him as creative inspiration from God not lying and stealing from low morals.
The main issue with the plagiarism is that it cements lying stealing and political moves in as corporate culture - the unwritten rules.
Every following President has also lied with zero remorse that is their MO - they don’t value truth they value political capital.
They lie, cover up the sins of the past, double down on the existing infrastructure and keep on keeping on. They know no other way.
That is the Way.
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Bolshevik
I can remember Cabinet members going off about this. Wasn't sure what they were so mad at me for. I didn't bring it up.
God guided VPW to these sources. VPW put it all together so the rest of us didn't have to stumble (that bridge poem from earlier was mentioned).
So what if it's plagiarism, it's THE WORD that matters. All belongs to GAWD.
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chockfull
Uh huh.
All intellectual capital belongs to God so there is no plagiarism because you can’t steal from the source.
Parallel logic to:
All women in the kingdom belong to the king so having sex with them is claiming your just rights.
Narcissism + lack of boundaries + enablement.
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Nathan_Jr
This may be an extra polite concession. Should we characterize Bill Colby's or Harvey Weinstein's exploits as merely "having sex with"?
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