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The Absent Christ?


OldSkool
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On 12/2/2022 at 6:03 AM, chockfull said:

Yes in the world we live in tolerance and acceptance more illuminates the path than hard core stances.

With compromise, to me, like in a marriage, that means being ok with having diverse viewpoints on topics, allowing others the freedom to see things their way, and not being such an a hole with a corncob stuck up the butt looking down my nose at other Christians.  Like I was taught to do in the PFAL series.  People blame the Way Corps but that was just a Stanford prison experiment with free time to study collaterals.

 

On 12/3/2022 at 5:58 AM, OldSkool said:

I bet that was a line for line quote with LCM too. It's interesting though, when I was in rez the version of this can of malarkey they pushed was "any two believers can make a marriage work because they can renew their minds." I guess the bullshonta morphs to suit the times...

What you describe with their marriage and how its value was centric to being VP's successor....they still encourage this same type of stuff. They call it spiritual goals, thats how they put it to the way corps. You want to marry someone with the same spiritual goals as yourself. So if you really want to be a region coordinator someday then marry someone with the same aspirations. I had that pushed on me since day one with my time in TWI.

Im thinking bottom line is TWI has no business talking about marriages with anyone.

 

On 12/3/2022 at 6:25 AM, chockfull said:

The Ways shenanigans and anti Christ operation has broken up more Christian marriages than I have actually seen any other place.

The only “more harmony in the home” you see in Der Vey is the woman walking 10 steps behind the man in obedience and subjugation.

Ladies here’s your chance!  You can live the Word of der vey  at home.  Or take a similar risk and go out on an ambassador program to Saudi Arabia.  Really move the word there lol.

I mean there are real examples of affairs causing suicides.  

Yes in residence these idiots were much more onerous.  When I think about what they were doing behind the scenes at the time they were controlling us with respect to marriage and dating it makes me sick to my stomach.

Yes if the Way never spoke again publicly on Christian  family marriage and sex it would still be too soon.  Their witness in that area stinks to high heaven.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 12/3/2022 at 6:32 AM, chockfull said:

Yeah because I’m commenting on der vey and marriage I wanted to point out this example.  It is a good example of what I believe the Bible does teach about marriage. Harmony with different opinions through mercy and grace.   Not lock step obedience through rigid unyielding mental patterns and absolute trust and obedience.  I mean dogs aren’t even like that.

 

On 12/3/2022 at 8:35 AM, waysider said:

I first heard VPW quote this line in the CF&S class in the early 1970s. I heard it again, while being counseled, as I made preparations to divorce my first wife. 

 

On 12/3/2022 at 8:43 AM, OldSkool said:

Boy oh boy they are uttely destitute when it comes to marriage counselling. The clergy who officiated my first marriage set a booby trap during counselling that likely proved to be the end of that marriage. During counselling, and there were numerous sessions, we were asked to tell the other what would be grounds for divorce in the marriage. I came from a long line of alcoholics so of couse being under pressure she said alcoholism. Well....Im a recovering alcoholic at this point and when I went off the deep end with my drinking some years back it was a real easy progression to divorce from there. Who in their right mind would ask an engaged couple to tell the other what would be grounds for divorce? 

I dont blame TWI or clergy for my marriage ending...it's largely my fault and I have made amends the best I am able. What I am saying if the concept hadn't been introduced at all we would have had a better chance of staying married through it all.

 

On 12/3/2022 at 12:56 PM, Charity said:

I know commitment is vital in order to work out problems that pop up in all marriages.  When deciding on who to marry, don't people "normally" get to know each other more than whether someone "stands on Word" or not. In the corps, when the leaders kept everyone so busy, how did anyone have time to get to know someone just as a person, not just from the "role" he or she had.  It's very likely that I accepted "any 2 Christians can make a marriage work" because it sounded easy or because if VP said it, it must be true or because I struggled, even before going into the ministry with how to actually get to know the person I was dating in a healthy way.  All three were genuine reasons for me at the time. 

Thank you so much for the threads.  My experience in searching for topics on this site has been unsuccessful.  The only way I know how is to scroll through all 187 pages to find something that's connected to my topic of interest.  My other choice is just to ask if any of you know a thread that could help which I'll probably be doing over time.

 

So true – TWI is the worst place to look for marriage counseling…and in general, the impact that a harmful and controlling cult has on the individual, couples, marriages, and families is always  intriguing to me…there’s so many variables to factor in and human beings are so complex it becomes an ever-developing story. I get into it for several reasons: isolate and identify problems. Sort out personal issues , figure out the self-induced problems, the bad habits and dubious mindset I adopted when in TWI…it’s a huge project :rolleyes:  I tend to overthink stuff . Getting back to simple things like a relationship with Jesus Christ seems to help.

what is so frustrating about being married and having a family while being involved with a pseudo-Christian cult is that I got stressed out with wondering why there was so much friction and failure since I thought we were following Jesus Christ. But I was following wierwille’s “the word” aka PFAL which for all practical purposes takes the place of Christ. I think that was the biggest factor in most of my problems.

For me, having personal issues, undeveloped cognitive skills, and bad habits before joining a harmful and controlling cult were only made worse by the TWI mindset and lifestyle.

 

- - - - - 

Start out with the human condition – no one is perfect…this world is not perfect…take a schlep like me for example. Raised in an honest, hardworking but dysfunctional family with a close bond, in the Roman Catholic faith. In my teens got into music, art and the counterculture of the 60s and 70s. I was definitely seeking something – exactly what I don’t know…maybe just the typical coming of age quest…what is truth? What’s it all about?

 

TWI appealed to me because they claimed to have definitive answers for just about everything in life. I was involved in TWI for 12 years. Some stuff about my personality got “hijacked” in a sense. wierwille’s / PFAL’s disparaging mainstream Christianity and conventional wisdom were tantalizing to my “counterculture lifestyle” – and seemed to hold promise of me having a role in the bigger picture of changing the world.

I guess there may be nothing wrong with good intentions…it depends on how you define “good” and formulate a means to that end. TWI’s touchstone for truth was wierwille’s PFAL class. The doctrines of that class were often affectionately referred to as “The Word” both by wierwille and grads of the class. We were going to take “The Word” over the world! We had “the goods” on truth and the means to spread it. I remember in some meetings of ’74 and ’75, wierwille explaining the correlation of “The Word” and PFAL: our goal was taking “The Word” over the world. It didn’t mean everyone is going to believe “The Word”. Our goal was to give everyone a chance to take PFAL. If anyone refused to take the class that was their problem.

 

Honesty is a big deal in my family. But if you want to be a good sales rep for TWI, you must learn how to hype the PFAL class and exaggerate what you got out of it. At the time I didn’t think that was being dishonest.

Being diligent and industrious is another thing about my family. But that trait of mine was commandeered by TWI – I usually felt compelled to give the ministry most of my time, energy, and resources with little left over for family. Even after I left TWI – I became a workaholic – partly to reestablish my technical career and trying to make up for being too close to poverty level for comfort. My wife and I went to professional marriage counselors and that helped sort out what should be our priorities and also my personal goals.  

That’s all for now…some extra credit links below:

 

Human condition - Wikipedia 

Behavioural sciences - Wikipedia 

Counterculture of the 1960s - Wikipedia 

Personality psychology - Wikipedia

What Is Personality Psychology? (verywellmind.com)

What Is Personality? Definition, Development, and Theories (psychcentral.com)

Honesty - Wikipedia

The Parallels Between Cults and Dysfunctional Families • Connections in Recovery

Dysfunctional Families - Framework for Cult Membership (zeolla.org)

10 Things to Know About the Psychology of Cults - Online Psychology Degree Guide

 

Edited by T-Bone
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11 hours ago, WordWolf said:

I Corinthians 15: 23-28

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

Thanks WordWolf for all your recent posts.  In reply to this one, 3 things came to mind so I'll share them on separate posts.  My first one is in response to the verses above.  I know I'm getting a bit :offtopic:so please let me know when it's necessary to post on a different forum. 

I wrote earlier that my grandson has non-verbal autism.  Cameron is 7 years old and is an incredibly sweet boy.  Since he currently understands only simple sentences which he’s heard repeatedly, I know he is not able to believe Rom 10:9,10 now or possibly forever.  But I also know that because of God’s mercy and grace, he will go to be with Christ with the rest of us believers (imho) and receive a new body and mind.  How great is our God and savior!!!

 

Thinking about the return brought 1 Cor 7:14 to mind.  It says, “For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of the wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

 

From what I can remember, TWI taught that if a child has at least one Christian parent, that child is then made holy (saved) until he/she reaches an age of accountability (whatever that is).  In answer to OldSkool’s earlier question to me, however, I can say that I do not think the way international is qualified to say authoritatively what the accuracy of the word really is. 

 

First off, I’ve always had trouble with their interpretation of this verse because it infers that unlike children of Christians, the children of non-Christian parents don’t get to be saved until they reach an age of accountability.  This to me is unfair (imo).  Next, the first part of the verse appears to contradict what they teach about the second part.  It says that a husband or wife is made “holy” because of their believing spouse, but we know “holy” here cannot mean “saved” (imo) because as an adult, you have to confess Rom 10:9-10 in order to receive that ticket to heaven.     

 

Since all 3 places “holy” is used in this verse come from the same Greek word “hagios” (which means “set apart/sanctified”), I’m thinking that the verse is saying any young child or unbelieving spouse will be sanctified or set apart from the other unbelievers in that they will be blessed along with their Christian spouse, mother or father (again imo). 

 

This still leaves the question of what happens to young children who die.  Do they go to heaven?  If anyone would like to share their thoughts about this (here or on another thread), it would be great.

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12 hours ago, WordWolf said:

That "LORD" at the beginning of the verse is "YHWH", the name of God Almighty, Yahweh, and is not to be given to anyone else.    

 

It sounds like there is a verse for this.  I'd be bless to know it. 

My second reply to this post is about "What's in a name."

Speaking of Jesus, the Word says, "and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross! And therefore God raised him to the highest place of honor and gave him the name that is above every name,

So like daddy, like son.  Daddy's name, YHWH, is not to be given to anyone else, and Jesus' name is above every name.  We are in incredible company!

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1 hour ago, Charity said:

From what I can remember, TWI taught that if a child has at least one Christian parent, that child is then made holy (saved) until he/she reaches an age of accountability (whatever that is).  In answer to OldSkool’s earlier question to me, however, I can say that I do not think the way international is qualified to say authoritatively what the accuracy of the word really is. 

Well, I think they are quoting this section of scripture:

1 Corinthians 7:14

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

I have to get going for now but will be back a little later. I guess the question is does sanctificatified = salvation in this context?

Keep in mind that God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. His grace and mercy are way beyond our finite comprehension. 

1 John 5:16

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Forget about the sin unto death, I don't really think that applies to your 7y/o grandson. But if God is so very gracious he will give eternal life to someone when I ask on their behalf...I think you have nothing to worry about. Just rest easy in your trust in God. 

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3 hours ago, Charity said:

This still leaves the question of what happens to young children who die.  Do they go to heaven?  If anyone would like to share their thoughts about this (here or on another thread), it would be great.

Rocky recommended a really cool book      Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived by Rob Bell   a while back  and started a thread about the book    [ to get an idea of the book check out this thread – here  ] .

I’ve read it a couple of times – it’s one of my new favorites. Come to think of it – interesting you brought it up on this thread cuz Love Wins opened my eyes to see God’s love is immeasurably bigger than I could conceive of…You might find some answers and comfort to your concern…and in chapter 6 the author’s scripture references got me to rethink of the pervasive presence and influence of Jesus Christ in the world. 

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5 hours ago, Charity said:

This still leaves the question of what happens to young children who die.  Do they go to heaven?  If anyone would like to share their thoughts about this (here or on another thread), it would be great.

It was often used as a pressure tactic to elicit loyalty to TWI.

"You can't leave now. "What will happen to your kids?"

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37 minutes ago, waysider said:

It was often used as a pressure tactic to elicit loyalty to TWI.

"You can't leave now. "What will happen to your kids?"

What exactly were the implications? What would happen to your kids, according to these pseudo-Christian jihadists?

 

 

(This is among the most sinister, brutal forms of gaslighting and spiritual abuse. Abject wickedness. Serpentine trash.)

Edited by Nathan_Jr
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2 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

What exactly were the implications? What would happen to your kids, according to the these pseudo-Christian jihadists?

The implication is that if you abandon TWI, before they reach the age of accountability, they won't be covered by the hedge of protection. Hence, if something bad happens to them, it will be your fault.

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17 hours ago, WordWolf said:

So, I swore fealty to Jesus and am his liegeman, he is my liege-lord.  He swore fealty to God Almighty.

God and Jesus are one in purpose, and work together, having worked together for at least 2,000 years.   If they are one in other ways, that only reinforces what needs no reinforcement to me. 

 Corinthians 15: 23-28 I prefer the NASB version of the same verses, they're a little clearer, IMHO.

23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is clear that [j]this excludes the Father who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

In what is to come, all will be made subject to Jesus......

...except God Almighty, Who subjected everything to Jesus- He won't be subject to Jesus.  Once everything is subject to Jesus, then Jesus is subjected (as if he isn't now) to God Almighty, subjecting everything to God through Jesus, "that God may be all in all."

 

This is very interesting because verse 24 does say “then” as in ‘at that time’, and not before.  Until Jesus hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, until he has abolished all rule and all authority and power, until he has put all his enemies under his feet including the last enemy, death, and until he has put all things in subjection under his feet, verse 25 says he must reign. Then the son himself will also be subjected to God, so that God may be all in all.

So first he reigns and then at the end, he subjects himself to God.  What is all involved in his reigning?  Is it only accomplishing the 4 "untils" listed above?  Is he working on the 4 "untils" during the Grace admin or does he begin only after he gathers the body of believers?  TWI did teach that Jesus was not a king and did not have a kingdom during the Grace admin.  During that time, he was our Lord and the head of the body of Christ.  Were they accurate on this doctrine?

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6 minutes ago, Charity said:

during the Grace admin

Not to muddy the waters here, but administrations don't exist. They were popularized and introduced into Christianity by John Nelson Darby. Before Darby they basically didn't exist. From Darby Cyrus Ingram Scofield pushed them in his study Bible, The Scofiel Reference Bible that became the default study tool for Moody Bible Institute, et. al. That's another topic entirely, but when it comes to understanding Jesus Christ purpose it helps to understand that he is well into his mission of restoring the creation. Essentially Jesus Christ will reign until he has restored the creation and wrested it from the hands of the enemy. He will do what Adam never did...give it all back to God in a symbolic act of obedience and love. I mean it's not that God isn't still one in purpose with Christ. They go hand in hand. Yey, Christ will still lay it all back at the Father's feet instead of keeping it for himself.

Jesus Christ is bringing a new creation into reality. The new birth is the down payment of that creation. At our full redemption at the gathering we will know fully as we are fully known.

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14 minutes ago, waysider said:

The implication is that if you abandon TWI, before they reach the age of accountability, they won't be covered by the hedge of protection. Hence, if something bad happens to them, it will be your fault.

 

7 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Fvck this! 

Yes. That it's exactly as Waysider says. TWI binds people hardcore from early with fear of leaving the ministry.

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3 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Where else? What is the alternative?

Now that you've asked, I think that if they're not old enough or if they're mentally unable to understand and confess Rom 10:9,10 and get born again thereby becoming a member in the body of Christ (as is the case with my grandson), there is no way God would punish them like those who will be in the resurrection of the unjust.  So that only leaves going to heaven, either at the gathering together or with the resurrection of the just.  I personally prefer at the gathering together but either way, they will be resurrected to life :dance:.

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1 minute ago, OldSkool said:

 

Yes. That it's exactly as Waysider says. TWI binds people hardcore from early with fear of leaving the ministry.

Oh, I KNOW it's exactly as Waysider says it is!

Who, after hearing of this, after living this, can still be an apologist for TWI and its inventor, victor paul wierwille? Only the willfully blind and the wicked.

This is vomitous, abject, spiritual depravity. I don't know what born again of serpent seed is, but if anything, it must be this.

Who can still doubt that this is a sinister, evil cult?

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the perpetrators and teachers and defenders of such abuse on THAT day.

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7 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Start out with the human condition – no one is perfect…this world is not perfect…take a schlep like me for example.

Is this similar to being a "wretch like me" in the song Amazing Grace?  Inquiring minds just want to know  :rolleyes:.  I never understood why TWI changed a "wretch" to a "soul" in that song.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Rocky recommended a really cool book      Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived by Rob Bell   a while back  and started a thread about the book    [ to get an idea of the book check out this thread – here  ] .

I’ve read it a couple of times – it’s one of my new favorites. Come to think of it – interesting you brought it up on this thread cuz Love Wins opened my eyes to see God’s love is immeasurably bigger than I could conceive of…You might find some answers and comfort to your concern…and in chapter 6 the author’s scripture references got me to rethink of the pervasive presence and influence of Jesus Christ in the world. 

I should be receiving the book "Undertow" by Charlene Edge any day now.  After I've finished that I would like to read Love Wins.  I will check on the thread you sent me.  Thanks!

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1 hour ago, waysider said:

It was often used as a pressure tactic to elicit loyalty to TWI.

"You can't leave now. "What will happen to your kids?"

So they're basically saying that if you leave, you are no longer a Christian and therefore you and your kids are no longer sanctified.  Unbelievable! :mad2:

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16 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Oh, I KNOW it's exactly as Waysider says it is!

Oh, I figured you did, I would have done everyone a favor by qualifying that statement. I usually only speak up on stuff like that for the sake of those who are lurking on GSC for corraboration.

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18 minutes ago, Charity said:

Now that you've asked, I think that if they're not old enough or if they're mentally unable to understand and confess Rom 10:9,10 and get born again thereby becoming a member in the body of Christ (as is the case with my grandson), there is no way God would punish them like those who will be in the resurrection of the unjust.  So that only leaves going to heaven, either at the gathering together or with the resurrection of the just.  I personally prefer at the gathering together but either way, they will be resurrected to life :dance:.

Im convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that God will far exceed even our greatest expectations!

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9 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Jesus Christ purpose it helps to understand that he is well into his mission of restoring the creation. Essentially Jesus Christ will reign until he has restored the creation and wrested it from the hands of the enemy. He will do what Adam never did...give it all back to God in a symbolic act of obedience and love. I mean it's not that God isn't still one in purpose with Christ. They go hand in hand. Yey, Christ will still lay it all back at the Father's feet instead of keeping it for himself.

Jesus Christ is bringing a new creation into reality. The new birth is the down payment of that creation. At our full redemption at the gathering we will know fully as we are fully known.

There has been so much great stuff to think about from today's posts but I must admit, I'm fading away (getting sleepy).  Apparently I posted the above without a reply from me underneath.  Well thanks to a couple of you, I knew how to edit it in order to add my two cents.

Okay, I think I'm getting it - the title of each "administration" is man made and they are nowhere to be found in the Bible.  So what's written in Revelations is simply what's going to happen in the future.  It doesn't need the title of the "Revelation Administration."  Likewise, the Gospels are about the life of Jesus and does not need to be called the "Christ Administration."  If you stop referring to administrations, you can then get rid of all the man-made teaching that goes along with explaining them.  If I've got this right, it's not a problem letting that doctrine go.

I forgot to include it in the quote above, but I love your line about Jesus not keeping it all to himself when the end comes.  Reminds me of Raffi's "Sharing Song" that my students liked to sing.  It beings with "It's mine but you can have some, with you I'd like to share it..." only in the above case, Jesus would sing to God, "It's mine and you can't have none of it."  Too funny.

Edited by Charity
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3 minutes ago, Charity said:

So they're basically saying that if you leave, you are no longer a Christian and therefore you and your kids are no longer sanctified.  Unbelievable! :mad2:

They consider a person that has left as no longer part of the functioning body of Christ. Still born again, but rewards eliminated and serious consequences to the ones who leave the protection of the household. That little trick is even heavier handed on the way corps with their stupid salt covenant. I actually heard straight out of Rosalie Rivenbarks mouth that the consequences for leaving the way corps are way worse because of the salt covenant.

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28 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

They consider a person that has left as no longer part of the functioning body of Christ. Still born again, but rewards eliminated and serious consequences to the ones who leave the protection of the household. That little trick is even heavier handed on the way corps with their stupid salt covenant. I actually heard straight out of Rosalie Rivenbarks mouth that the consequences for leaving the way corps are way worse because of the salt covenant.

I'm going to vomit. Again.

This is pure, invented, fictitious, cult BULLSHONTA. None of this sinister doctrine is true. It's unbridled hucksterism. This is why I say BELEEF is the biggest problem in the world today. For this abusive, gaslighting doctrine to achieve its designed, destructive result, it must be believed.

Only the huckster requires belief. Belief has no place where Truth is concerned. The Truth can and will be KNOWN. The Truth can and will be seen.

My heart breaks for the deceived.

 

 

Be still. Be not afraid. Watch. Pray. 

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It's a common cult tactic, not used only by The Way.

"Bad things will happen if you leave. You'll be a greasespot in the road by midnight."

If the fear for your own safety isn't enough to get to you, shame is waiting in the wings to make an entrance. Shame in believing your decision to leave may have played a part in tragedy or damnation befalling your loved ones. 

So much for The Abundant Life. Add it to The Green Card.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

They consider a person that has left as no longer part of the functioning body of Christ. Still born again, but rewards eliminated and serious consequences to the ones who leave the protection of the household. That little trick is even heavier handed on the way corps with their stupid salt covenant. I actually heard straight out of Rosalie Rivenbarks mouth that the consequences for leaving the way corps are way worse because of the salt covenant.

But sanctification is not a reward - it's what we received from God when we were born again as stated in 1 Cor 1:30, "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"  So if a Christian is still born again when he/she leaves TWI, then he/she would still be sanctified.  And if he/she is still sanctified, then 1 Cor 7:14 would still apply.  Right?

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