YW and thanks. So here's a question you may have already answered, but perhaps you may want to expound more for the readers understanding. The below link has been described as a "miracle". But what is the non-spiritual explanation? I will admit, I do believe it was a miracle and can't honestly see it any other way at this point. Thx.
You are not alone in believing the accounts of what was said to have happened in 1917. There are many travel agencies that book pilgrimages to Fatima. The info below is from the 206 Tours' website.
Did You Know These Interesting Facts About Fatima?
Over 4 million people make a Pilgrimage here each year.
Over 1 million people attended the 100th Anniversary of the Apparitions on May 13, 2017
Some pilgrims crawl 600 feet (182 meters) from the Basilica of the Most Holy Trinity to the Chapel of Apparitions on their knees as an act of penance. Then they circle around the Chapel on their knees too, while praying the rosary.
My question is if there has ever been a miraculous event like this one that could not be explained in some other way by experts in different fields such as those cited in the Miracle of the Sun website? The weeping statues were disproved, and the shroud of Turin was proven not to be the authentic burial shroud of Jesus.
Is it even possible for supernatural beings to prove themselves in the natural realm of science, physics, etc.?
Not only so, but recognition thereof was an important development in my (still extremely limited) understanding of spirituality in general.
IOW, recognizing experiences we, while in twi, exclusively labeled as miracles due to God honoring our faithfulness, were NOT in fact limited to a certain parochial group of fundamentalist Wierwillites was a BFD for me.
God makes the rain to fall on the believers and unbelievers... or some such similar expression.
If the experiences are being exclusively labeled as miracles (either inside or outside of twi), do you mean they are, are not, or possibly can be actual miracles? I'm not sure of the point you are making by your last sentence.
If the experiences are being exclusively labeled as miracles (either inside or outside of twi), do you mean they are, are not, or possibly can be actual miracles? I'm not sure of the point you are making by your last sentence.
No. I mean that unexplained, unexplainable phenomena that we considered miracles and thought was exclusive to twi (the "household") takes place whether the person is a believer or not.
22 hours ago, Rocky said:
God makes the rain to fall on the believers and unbelievers... or some such similar expression.
It's thought of and described in secular circles as synchronicity.
Here's another thing that we, in TWI, thought was US as individuals tapping into the power of a specific God.
Meditation alone in nature. 42 or 43 years ago, I spent a year as a Wow in Fremont, Ohio. In the Spring of 1982, I started spending some time in a small woods environment along Muskellunge Creek Road, immediately south of State Street. It was my happy place. I felt like I was communing with God.
What was really happening is better described as achieving a FLOW state.
The irony, looking back on it, is in that it was and is something that is not at all unique to TWI or any other flavor or sect of Christianity.
It took me a VERY LONNNNNGGG time to recognize and realize this aspect of FLOW. When I did, it was freeing in a very real way. I could accomplish things without reference to anything Wierwille.
As far as a biblical key, I found it in Proverbs 2: 1-5.
It took many long hours (over the course of years) it took me to overcome the chains Victor Wierwille planted in my brain in his PFLAP classes (read ONLY this and not that),
Why? Could it have been because I had been indoctrinated ("trained") to be afraid of world wisdom?
Here's another thing that we, in TWI, thought was US as individuals tapping into the power of a specific God.
Meditation alone in nature. 42 or 43 years ago, I spent a year as a Wow in Fremont, Ohio. In the Spring of 1982, I started spending some time in a small woods environment along Muskellunge Creek Road, immediately south of State Street. It was my happy place. I felt like I was communing with God.
What was really happening is better described as achieving a FLOW state.
The irony, looking back on it, is in that it was and is something that is not at all unique to TWI or any other flavor or sect of Christianity.
It took me a VERY LONNNNNGGG time to recognize and realize this aspect of FLOW. When I did, it was freeing in a very real way. I could accomplish things without reference to anything Wierwille.
As far as a biblical key, I found it in Proverbs 2: 1-5.
It took many long hours (over the course of years) it took me to overcome the chains Victor Wierwille planted in my brain in his PFLAP classes (read ONLY this and not that),
Why? Could it have been because I had been indoctrinated ("trained") to be afraid of world wisdom?
I like the video - I keep saying I want to begin doing laps again and the video is a good incentive.
I can understand someone communing with God while being in the woods. I used to do that myself.
When it comes to Prov 2:1-5 though, I don't see world wisdom here.
1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
Well... proverbs was written by a specific person or people to specific persons or people.
That doesn't mean any OTHER people would be unable to cultivate long term curiosity. I get it. it took me years to get beyond the chains Wierwille installed in my brain.
Think about what scientists, mathematicians, or philosophers having curiosity to figure out things they are interested in. Wierwille and Martindale were adamant that any new insight about ANYTHING was ONLY revelation from God. I (NOW) say that's malarkey.
You are not alone in believing the accounts of what was said to have happened in 1917. There are many travel agencies that book pilgrimages to Fatima. The info below is from the 206 Tours' website.
Did You Know These Interesting Facts About Fatima?
Over 4 million people make a Pilgrimage here each year.
Over 1 million people attended the 100th Anniversary of the Apparitions on May 13, 2017
Some pilgrims crawl 600 feet (182 meters) from the Basilica of the Most Holy Trinity to the Chapel of Apparitions on their knees as an act of penance. Then they circle around the Chapel on their knees too, while praying the rosary.
My question is if there has ever been a miraculous event like this one that could not be explained in some other way by experts in different fields such as those cited in the Miracle of the Sun website? The weeping statues were disproved, and the shroud of Turin was proven not to be the authentic burial shroud of Jesus.
Is it even possible for supernatural beings to prove themselves in the natural realm of science, physics, etc.?
Honestly don't know... but I believe faith is still a requirement to accept it as an actual miracle. Similar is the story of Bernadette Soubirous. I believe the hell she went through trying to prove to everyone what she saw, was eventually confirmed by the spring, the healings that occurred, and later her incorruptible physical body. Even with all that, faith still is a requirement.
Honestly don't know... but I believe faith is still a requirement to accept it as an actual miracle. Similar is the story of Bernadette Soubirous. I believe the hell she went through trying to prove to everyone what she saw, was eventually confirmed by the spring, the healings that occurred, and later her incorruptible physical body. Even with all that, faith still is a requirement.
Bernadette Soubirous had a childhood bout of cholera which left her with severe, chronic asthma along with other ailments throughout her life. Eventually she contracted tuberculosis of the lungs and bones, and this long-term illness caused her to die in 1879 at the age of 35.
But here's the thing - according to Wikipedia, the apparition of "the lady" in Bernadette's third vision "told her that she does not promise to make her happy in this world, but in the other." However, the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes was built in honor of the apparitions of "the lady" she saw. It is one of the most-visited Catholic shrines in the world, with around four million tourists coming every year. (Wikipedia: Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes)
And although God did not heal her during her life, she was canonized by the church in 1933.
But because of her religious faith, she will get her rewards in the afterlife – an unprovable concept which requires faith in order to be real in the minds of those living.
Where would religions be without the faith requirement?
It took me a VERY LONNNNNGGG time to recognize and realize this aspect of FLOW. When I did, it was freeing in a very real way. I could accomplish things without reference to anything Wierwille.
It took many long hours (over the course of years) it took me to overcome the chains Victor Wierwille planted in my brain in his PFLAP classes (read ONLY this and not that),
23 hours ago, Rocky said:
It took me years to get beyond the chains Wierwille installed in my brain.
Think about what scientists, mathematicians, or philosophers having curiosity to figure out things they are interested in. Wierwille and Martindale were adamant that any new insight about ANYTHING was ONLY revelation from God. I (NOW) say that's malarkey.
Did you have any strong beliefs about God before you became involved with twi? You went through a lot more than I ever did and you've come through a lot since leaving. Do you think any of it still has some impact on your life?
Did you have any strong beliefs about God before you became involved with twi? You went through a lot more than I ever did and you've come through a lot since leaving. Do you think any of it still has some impact on your life?
I was born into an Italian family in upstate NY. I was baptized into the Catholic Church and attended five years of Catholic (elementary) school. It was, on the whole, a major influence in my childhood. It sowed the seeds of longing for communion with God. IOW, it was instrumental in plowing the fields of my mind to prepare me for Wierwille's cult.
When my children (one of mine and a stepson) were elementary school age, I became very involved in advocacy for public schools, both political and involvement with school district leadership.
That was when I began reading regularly and extensively to satisfy curiosities and answer questions that frequently came up as I faced and endured life's challenges.
Of course my childhood still has impact in and on my life. We each, individually and together, are the sum and substance of our life experience. I'm in my 70th year in this life (I have completed half of my 70th trip around the sun). I've been around the block a time or two. I've face my share of travails.
I realize that's vague. But it's the best answer I can give you this evening.
Faith is a requirement when it comes to believing in God for without it, one would see God and the bible quite differently. But what should someone do when a biblical concept they have put their faith in proves to be untrue?
God’s protection is a good example of this. It is something many Christians trust in because of accounts like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and the fiery furnace, David and Goliath, and Daniel in the lion’s den. There are also scriptures like:
2 Thessalonians 3:3 - But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one
All of Psalm 91 – I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust…He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler…There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. (Verses 2,4,10)
Trusting in these verses, however, does not prevent bad things from happening.
Once this happens, continuing to have faith in them is not thinking logically or critically. Instead, having faith becomes playing a game of chance at the least or being completely deluded at the worst. Are there other conclusions to consider?
This post relates to my previous one about God's protection. I'm calling this one "easier said than done."
I’ve been thinking about the next time I take the 5-hour drive to visit my son and his family, this time without the comforting thought of having God’s protection while driving on very busy highways most of the way. I’m trying to think rationally to get over the nervousness, but it continues to persist.
This morning I happened to listen to the YouTube video called “Belief and the Brain: a Psychiatrist and a Neuroscientist on Evolution and Religion.” Seth Andrews had two guests on his podcast:
- Dr. Andy Thomson, a psychiatrist and author of "Why We Believe in God(s): A Concise Guide to the Science of Faith," and
- Dr. John Wathey, a computational biologist, neuroscientist, and author of "The Illusion of God's Presence: The Biological Origins of Spiritual Longing."
They discussed, among many other things, why the concept of God being a heavenly father can become such a compelling desire and need for bible-believing people. It concerns the neural circuitry which evolved to “program the infant brain to expect the presence of a loving being who responds to the child's needs.” That innate feeling is triggered again in adulthood through religion because of the Father-son relationship that is fundamental to biblical teachings. The strength of these adult feelings is quite similar to the strength one had as an infant. IOW, there’s not just a psychological reason for a believer connecting with an all-loving and ever-present Father but a strong biological one as well.
This explains why Christians are so unwilling to let go of this concept, and why it can also be difficult for one who has deconverted to let go in certain scenarios even though they know it's just wishful thinking. Replacing illogical thinking with rational thinking requires some concentrated work to be done.
Replacing illogical thinking with rational thinking requires some concentrated work to be done.
It (changing one's thinking or values or understanding of spiritual matters) requires time and patience. It doesn't (and can't) happen overnight.
On 5/29/2024 at 9:49 AM, Charity said:
what should someone do when a biblical concept they have put their faith in proves to be untrue?
What should one do when they lose trust and become disillusioned? 1) realize they aren't proving anything either wrong or right. Rather, they are coming to grips with reality. 2) realize the narrative on which they have built their "relationship with God" is all about stories. The stories, it appears, are not holding true under the challenges of contemporary life.
It (changing one's thinking or values or understanding of spiritual matters) requires time and patience. It doesn't (and can't) happen overnight.
What should one do when they lose trust and become disillusioned? 1) realize they aren't proving anything either wrong or right. Rather, they are coming to grips with reality. 2) realize the narrative on which they have built their "relationship with God" is all about stories. The stories, it appears, are not holding true under the challenges of contemporary life.
Thanks Rocky. Your post falls in line with another thought I've been having - have I been too judgmental and/or opinionated with my posts. Each of our realities about God and the bible is uniquely personal although we might connect with the thoughts and feelings of others. I've reviewed what the Socratic Dialog Method is and how it's used which has been helpful.
The trip I mentioned earlier will not happen for at least two more months so there's time to think on the reality of living life without relying on a non-existent god for his protection.
I've ordered the two books I referred to in my previous post and am now reading the available sample of "The Illusion of God's Presence" on Amazon. The author begins by giving a few interesting anecdotes to explain where he's going with the contents of his book, and so far I find it pretty relatable. I've posted it below if you or anyone else is curious about this topic.
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waysider
Yeah, see. That kinda leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We were either following the teachings of a man with devil spirits or he was wrong about what he taught. That means he could have been
waysider
When you consider the irony in this, it's almost comical in a perversely twisted way. Want something from God? Follow a complicated formula. Make sure to cross every T and dot every I. Want
Raf
William Lane Craig is the master of the Gish Gallop, a form of debate in which you efficiently spout as much bulls hit in the time allotted as you possibly can. Since it takes more time to clean bulls
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Charity
You are not alone in believing the accounts of what was said to have happened in 1917. There are many travel agencies that book pilgrimages to Fatima. The info below is from the 206 Tours' website.
Did You Know These Interesting Facts About Fatima?
https://www.206tours.com/cms/blog/fatima-facts-where-to-go-what-to-see/
My question is if there has ever been a miraculous event like this one that could not be explained in some other way by experts in different fields such as those cited in the Miracle of the Sun website? The weeping statues were disproved, and the shroud of Turin was proven not to be the authentic burial shroud of Jesus.
Is it even possible for supernatural beings to prove themselves in the natural realm of science, physics, etc.?
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Charity
If the experiences are being exclusively labeled as miracles (either inside or outside of twi), do you mean they are, are not, or possibly can be actual miracles? I'm not sure of the point you are making by your last sentence.
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Rocky
No. I mean that unexplained, unexplainable phenomena that we considered miracles and thought was exclusive to twi (the "household") takes place whether the person is a believer or not.
It's thought of and described in secular circles as synchronicity.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/503350.The_Tao_of_Psychology
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Rocky
Here's another thing that we, in TWI, thought was US as individuals tapping into the power of a specific God.
Meditation alone in nature. 42 or 43 years ago, I spent a year as a Wow in Fremont, Ohio. In the Spring of 1982, I started spending some time in a small woods environment along Muskellunge Creek Road, immediately south of State Street. It was my happy place. I felt like I was communing with God.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fremont+ohio+map&atb=v353-1&t=chromentp&iaxm=maps&source=maps
What was really happening is better described as achieving a FLOW state.
The irony, looking back on it, is in that it was and is something that is not at all unique to TWI or any other flavor or sect of Christianity.
It took me a VERY LONNNNNGGG time to recognize and realize this aspect of FLOW. When I did, it was freeing in a very real way. I could accomplish things without reference to anything Wierwille.
As far as a biblical key, I found it in Proverbs 2: 1-5.
It took many long hours (over the course of years) it took me to overcome the chains Victor Wierwille planted in my brain in his PFLAP classes (read ONLY this and not that),
Why? Could it have been because I had been indoctrinated ("trained") to be afraid of world wisdom?
Edited by Rockyadditional thoughts
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Charity
I like the video - I keep saying I want to begin doing laps again and the video is a good incentive.
I can understand someone communing with God while being in the woods. I used to do that myself.
When it comes to Prov 2:1-5 though, I don't see world wisdom here.
1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
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Rocky
Well... proverbs was written by a specific person or people to specific persons or people.
That doesn't mean any OTHER people would be unable to cultivate long term curiosity. I get it. it took me years to get beyond the chains Wierwille installed in my brain.
Think about what scientists, mathematicians, or philosophers having curiosity to figure out things they are interested in. Wierwille and Martindale were adamant that any new insight about ANYTHING was ONLY revelation from God. I (NOW) say that's malarkey.
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oldiesman
Honestly don't know... but I believe faith is still a requirement to accept it as an actual miracle. Similar is the story of Bernadette Soubirous. I believe the hell she went through trying to prove to everyone what she saw, was eventually confirmed by the spring, the healings that occurred, and later her incorruptible physical body. Even with all that, faith still is a requirement.
Bernadette Soubirous - Wikipedia
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Charity
The link is an Interesting account of her life.
Bernadette Soubirous had a childhood bout of cholera which left her with severe, chronic asthma along with other ailments throughout her life. Eventually she contracted tuberculosis of the lungs and bones, and this long-term illness caused her to die in 1879 at the age of 35.
But here's the thing - according to Wikipedia, the apparition of "the lady" in Bernadette's third vision "told her that she does not promise to make her happy in this world, but in the other." However, the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes was built in honor of the apparitions of "the lady" she saw. It is one of the most-visited Catholic shrines in the world, with around four million tourists coming every year. (Wikipedia: Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes)
And although God did not heal her during her life, she was canonized by the church in 1933.
But because of her religious faith, she will get her rewards in the afterlife – an unprovable concept which requires faith in order to be real in the minds of those living.
Where would religions be without the faith requirement?
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Charity
Did you have any strong beliefs about God before you became involved with twi? You went through a lot more than I ever did and you've come through a lot since leaving. Do you think any of it still has some impact on your life?
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Rocky
I was born into an Italian family in upstate NY. I was baptized into the Catholic Church and attended five years of Catholic (elementary) school. It was, on the whole, a major influence in my childhood. It sowed the seeds of longing for communion with God. IOW, it was instrumental in plowing the fields of my mind to prepare me for Wierwille's cult.
When my children (one of mine and a stepson) were elementary school age, I became very involved in advocacy for public schools, both political and involvement with school district leadership.
That was when I began reading regularly and extensively to satisfy curiosities and answer questions that frequently came up as I faced and endured life's challenges.
Of course my childhood still has impact in and on my life. We each, individually and together, are the sum and substance of our life experience. I'm in my 70th year in this life (I have completed half of my 70th trip around the sun). I've been around the block a time or two. I've face my share of travails.
I realize that's vague. But it's the best answer I can give you this evening.
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Charity
Faith is a requirement when it comes to believing in God for without it, one would see God and the bible quite differently. But what should someone do when a biblical concept they have put their faith in proves to be untrue?
God’s protection is a good example of this. It is something many Christians trust in because of accounts like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and the fiery furnace, David and Goliath, and Daniel in the lion’s den. There are also scriptures like:
2 Thessalonians 3:3 - But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one
All of Psalm 91 – I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust…He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler…There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. (Verses 2,4,10)
Trusting in these verses, however, does not prevent bad things from happening.
Once this happens, continuing to have faith in them is not thinking logically or critically. Instead, having faith becomes playing a game of chance at the least or being completely deluded at the worst. Are there other conclusions to consider?
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Charity
This post relates to my previous one about God's protection. I'm calling this one "easier said than done."
I’ve been thinking about the next time I take the 5-hour drive to visit my son and his family, this time without the comforting thought of having God’s protection while driving on very busy highways most of the way. I’m trying to think rationally to get over the nervousness, but it continues to persist.
This morning I happened to listen to the YouTube video called “Belief and the Brain: a Psychiatrist and a Neuroscientist on Evolution and Religion.” Seth Andrews had two guests on his podcast:
- Dr. Andy Thomson, a psychiatrist and author of "Why We Believe in God(s): A Concise Guide to the Science of Faith," and
- Dr. John Wathey, a computational biologist, neuroscientist, and author of "The Illusion of God's Presence: The Biological Origins of Spiritual Longing."
They discussed, among many other things, why the concept of God being a heavenly father can become such a compelling desire and need for bible-believing people. It concerns the neural circuitry which evolved to “program the infant brain to expect the presence of a loving being who responds to the child's needs.” That innate feeling is triggered again in adulthood through religion because of the Father-son relationship that is fundamental to biblical teachings. The strength of these adult feelings is quite similar to the strength one had as an infant. IOW, there’s not just a psychological reason for a believer connecting with an all-loving and ever-present Father but a strong biological one as well.
This explains why Christians are so unwilling to let go of this concept, and why it can also be difficult for one who has deconverted to let go in certain scenarios even though they know it's just wishful thinking. Replacing illogical thinking with rational thinking requires some concentrated work to be done.
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Rocky
It (changing one's thinking or values or understanding of spiritual matters) requires time and patience. It doesn't (and can't) happen overnight.
What should one do when they lose trust and become disillusioned? 1) realize they aren't proving anything either wrong or right. Rather, they are coming to grips with reality. 2) realize the narrative on which they have built their "relationship with God" is all about stories. The stories, it appears, are not holding true under the challenges of contemporary life.
Edited by Rockypatience...
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Charity
Thanks Rocky. Your post falls in line with another thought I've been having - have I been too judgmental and/or opinionated with my posts. Each of our realities about God and the bible is uniquely personal although we might connect with the thoughts and feelings of others. I've reviewed what the Socratic Dialog Method is and how it's used which has been helpful.
The trip I mentioned earlier will not happen for at least two more months so there's time to think on the reality of living life without relying on a non-existent god for his protection.
I've ordered the two books I referred to in my previous post and am now reading the available sample of "The Illusion of God's Presence" on Amazon. The author begins by giving a few interesting anecdotes to explain where he's going with the contents of his book, and so far I find it pretty relatable. I've posted it below if you or anyone else is curious about this topic.
https://www.amazon.ca/Illusion-Gods-Presence-Biological-Spiritual/dp/1633880745
https://www.amazon.ca/Illusion-Gods-Presence-Biological-Spiritual/dp/1633880745
Hopefully, one of the two above will bring up the site.
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