There was already a whole thread about me. Without the hand of God on human history I'm just trying to give some atheists some happiness before the nuclear winter.
Yeah, I was kind of hoping for one straight answer as to exactly why you left twi or were you kicked out?
Yeah, I was kind of hoping for one straight answer as to exactly why you left twi or were you kicked out?
I don’t think he ever said. He went to ROA ‘87-‘88, got blessed in spite of being high all the time, tried to go WOW, but the AC rejected his application, then he hopped from charlatan to charlatan and got kicked out of at least one other cult, IHOP.
Some of THE best teachings I've heard on these subjects were by men after they had left twi...Wayne Clapp's 'Hell is not a place of eternal torment' and John Nessles 'Who is this Jesus Christ' were/are absolutely skillful' brilliant, impactful....
This may be one of the most important topics of our time, i.e., What is Hell? I think Martin Luther struggled with it; certainly I do. Still haven't decided yet, still open to possibilities. Here's another book that I think we discussed at some point in the past:
WW kind of sideswiped a theory I've been working under for the past few years. I've brought it up before but it bears repeating.
I have a suspicion (not enough evidence to call it a theory) that VPW was an unbeliever at heart. In tribute to Mike's thesis about how Wierwille hid great truths in plain sight and we all missed it: He declared himself to be all but atheist after studying the Bible. He no longer believed the words Holy or Bible on the cover (which is grammatically and rhetorically stupid, but you get his point). Being educated about the Bible, its history and authorship caused him to all but lose his faith. He said so!
What if he never regained it?
Bear with me: what if, from that moment forward, it was never about getting God and His Word right, but getting while the getting was good? He got money. He got adoration, He got fame (relative to most of us). He got attention. He got sex. He got power.
How much of what he did makes more sense if he didn't believe a word of it but knew how to manipulate people to get what he wanted from them? Every time he discovered a niche, he exploited it. "This book is not some kind of Johnny come lately idea just to be iconoclastic..." [if someone has the correct wording, please let me know. I'll be happy to fix]. Oh it WASN'T? Because it was so shoddy I would think that you were selling a title rather than a book. You have a doctorate. You know how to present and defend a thesis (stop laughing, you in the back row. @#$%ing Snowball Pete).
But he was an unbeliever. He KNEW the scholarship about the Bible that people like Bart Ehrman and Dan McClellan are popularizing today. He knew and he stopped believing. And THAT is when the bulls hit started.
The funny thing is, it doesn't negate anything he taught. Just his motives. If McClellan and Ehrman are right, the first Christians really weren't Trinitarians. They weren't what Wierwille espoused either, though some were. Jehovah's Witnesses actually got it right, if McClellan and Ehrman are correct. But even that conclusion presupposes a unified message from the New Testament writers. And they weren't unified.
Here's the problem Wierwille exposed that a lot of Christianity still gets wrong. There WAS NO FIRST CENTURY CHURCH. There were first century churches. Tons of them. And they disagreed with each other about EVERYTHING.
Another topic for another time.
Bottom line, I'm increasingly coming to believe that Wierwille's rise and ministry can best be explained by the hypothesis that he was an unbeliever from the moment before he became relevant.
After watching many episodes of "The Practice" and enjoying it immensely, I have to admit, "It's Possible".
I have lots of joy. I also exhibit the fruit of the spirit in much of my life and have been commended many times for doing "God's Work" (to which I respond: "I have to; He won't).
"Atheists are extremely without joy" is a statement of staggering ignorance and bigotry. I trust that is outside your character. Might be best to stick with a subject about which you actually know something
This opens up a whole lot of other questions for me like, does God work with unbelievers as well. Maybe the whole rap of "the fruit of the spirit comes from the manifestations" is bogus. QUESTION for the group: did VPW make that up or did he copy it from elsewhere... Stiles, Leonard, or somebody else?
I no longer have the books that demonstrate what concepts Wierwille lifted word for word. I would suspect Christians would care more about the content than the source when evaluating the doctrines, and that conversation, of course, belongs in Doctrinal (we have a new sub forum dedicated specifically to twi doctrine. Feel free).
The question of whether he plagiarized or made it up stays here.
I no longer have the books that demonstrate what concepts Wierwille lifted word for word. I would suspect Christians would care more about the content than the source when evaluating the doctrines, and that conversation, of course, belongs in Doctrinal (we have a new sub forum dedicated specifically to twi doctrine. Feel free).
The question of whether he plagiarized or made it up stays here.
I don't care much either way. Should we still?
Only if one wants to see it in the original... and who knows, maybe there's something there that's different...
Yeah, I was kind of hoping for one straight answer as to exactly why you left twi or were you kicked out?
As I tell my sister, I am my favorite subject. So OK, the Rock in 87 and 88. Highlights of my Christian experience.
Went into the Army. Met up with a guy trying to establish The Way in Germany but nothing came of it.
Got out in 93 and joined a twig. Went to the Rock and this time it was awful. Grounds weren't immaculate as they used to be. The love, joy and family were gone. I found LCMs preaching to be caustic and controlling. It was later that fall I had that demonic episode I wrote about. Eventually I split with my twig leader and The Way.
In my experience, The Way changed between '88 and '93. I know it is different for everybody, many thought it was over before I took PFAL.
A little extra, would Christianity ever be the same again? The Way was gone, was that glorious experience of Christianity gone, too?
Sometime around 96 or 97 the providential hand of God (just humor me, OK?) brought me to Morningstar Fellowship in Charlotte, NC. Truly, it was a 'God thing' (read: psychotic event). My walk with Christ (in my imagination) opened up new chapters and new vistas and even though the experience of love in Christian family (no thanks to VP, I'm sure) was never the same, interaction with other worlds became even better- like...way better (don't bogart that bong) ...
Hard getting away from my favorite subject but you did ask.
I'm fuzzy on the specifics. We discussed this in detail here 10 or 12 years ago. Most of this sort of thing came from Stiles or Leonard or maybe both. The definitions VPW used in the Advanced Class were lifted almost word-for-word from one of them. I think it may have been Stiles. Anyhow, it's all archived here somewhere. I'm not personally very skilled at locating old discussions. But, yeah, it's all here if you're motivated enough to look for it. At the moment, I'm more motivated to catch another episode of Heavenly Ever After on Netflix.
As I tell my sister, I am my favorite subject. So OK, the Rock in 87 and 88. Highlights of my Christian experience.
Went into the Army. Met up with a guy trying to establish The Way in Germany but nothing came of it.
Got out in 93 and joined a twig. Went to the Rock and this time it was awful. Grounds weren't immaculate as they used to be. The love, joy and family were gone. I found LCMs preaching to be caustic and controlling. It was later that fall I had that demonic episode I wrote about. Eventually I split with my twig leader and The Way.
In my experience, The Way changed between '88 and '93. I know it is different for everybody, many thought it was over before I took PFAL.
A little extra, would Christianity ever be the same again? The Way was gone, was that glorious experience of Christianity gone, too?
Sometime around 96 or 97 the providential hand of God (just humor me, OK?) brought me to Morningstar Fellowship in Charlotte, NC. Truly, it was a 'God thing' (read: psychotic event). My walk with Christ (in my imagination) opened up new chapters and new vistas and even though the experience of love in Christian family (no thanks to VP, I'm sure) was never the same, interaction with other worlds became even better- like...way better (don't bogart that bong) ...
Hard getting away from my favorite subject but you did ask.
I think you know that twi will have none of the preposterous, pretentious and extreme prophetic phoniness that ministries like Morningstar (and IHOPKC, Gateway Church, Bethel Church, and others) prosper in, but they all do share in twi's history of there being sexual abuse. Now, do they all practice lovebombing like twi - that I do not know.
I think you know that twi will have none of the preposterous, pretentious and extreme prophetic phoniness that ministries like Morningstar (and IHOPKC, Gateway Church, Bethel Church, and others) prosper in, but they all do share in twi's history of there being sexual abuse. Now, do they all practice lovebombing like twi - that I do not know.
I'm just going to tell you my opinion. Of course you can disagree.
Respectfully, you're very certain about things you know nothing about. But, I' m not here to convince anyone of anything, either.
I'm just going to tell you my opinion. Of course you can disagree.
Respectfully, you're very certain about things you know nothing about. But, I' m not here to convince anyone of anything, either.
You know nothing about what I do or do not know. What I said about those groups can easily be documented. I will do so if you're interested but not tonight - it's too late.
There was already a whole thread about me. Without the hand of God on human history I'm just trying to give some atheists some happiness before the nuclear winter.
The GSC is not a "Christians only" or a "Christian=specific" forum. Everyone is welcome to post, regardless of position, beliefs, and where they are in their life.
That having been said, not everything is welcome to be posted. It's not acceptable to dump insults on posters just because they're Christians, and it's not acceptable to dump insults on posters just because they're NOT Christians. So, no slams just because people are atheists or agnostics (which doesn't mean everyone else is free game for insults.) You have choices. Either refrain from posts like that, or just admit you can't control yourself and go elsewhere to post. You can always make your own message board and post whatever you'd like on it. The other possibility is to disregard the GSC rules and common manners and lay into people without restriction. Of course, that means that the Moderators are going to have to take action. Those who can't control themselves will require others adding control to them. That's true just about everywhere. Naturally, you can ignore my post or make fun of it, but a word to the wise is sufficient.
As I tell my sister, I am my favorite subject. So OK, the Rock in 87 and 88. Highlights of my Christian experience.
Went into the Army. Met up with a guy trying to establish The Way in Germany but nothing came of it.
Got out in 93 and joined a twig. Went to the Rock and this time it was awful. Grounds weren't immaculate as they used to be. The love, joy and family were gone. I found LCMs preaching to be caustic and controlling. It was later that fall I had that demonic episode I wrote about. Eventually I split with my twig leader and The Way.
In my experience, The Way changed between '88 and '93. I know it is different for everybody, many thought it was over before I took PFAL.
A little extra, would Christianity ever be the same again? The Way was gone, was that glorious experience of Christianity gone, too?
Sometime around 96 or 97 the providential hand of God (just humor me, OK?) brought me to Morningstar Fellowship in Charlotte, NC. Truly, it was a 'God thing' (read: psychotic event). My walk with Christ (in my imagination) opened up new chapters and new vistas and even though the experience of love in Christian family (no thanks to VP, I'm sure) was never the same, interaction with other worlds became even better- like...way better (don't bogart that bong) ...
Hard getting away from my favorite subject but you did ask.
Between the 88 and 89 ROA, lcm drew his line in the sand. vpw used to take people in isolation on grounds, and occasionally threaten to kick them out for incompetence unless they swore an oath of allegiance to him. He pulled this privately and in quiet because vpw knew it was wrong. vpw taught lcm. Among the things he taught him was that lcm was going to have to "loosen up" on the subject of sex and sex acts with women other than his wife if he wanted to lead God's people. He convinced lcm that vpw was the real thing. So, when lcm did things vpw did, lcm believed they were OK with God Almighty, so he didn't cover his tracks so much..which is why he got caught.
So, 1985 was "Passing of the Patriarch." For a few years, lcm wandered the grounds in a fog (according to him.) After that (1988), lcm drew his line in the sand. He contacted ALL the twi leaders above twig level. He demanded an oath of allegiance to him PERSONALLY. We know this because one of our posters got this message, and phoned lcm directly. He said it sounded like lcm was saying they all had to follow him BLINDLY (his emphasis, not mine.) lcm claimed that was what he was already doing. "If that's what you really think, you can kiss my @$$$" *hangs up*
lcm demanded that everyone choose between himself and Geer. Most leaders said they refused to choose among men, and/or said they chose to stand with God, period. So, lcm fired all of them. In one fell swoop, 80% of all the leaders in twi were fired, and letters were sent to everyone with the names of everyone in their state who was canned, and saying they were canned for following their lusts and so on. When that happened, the people- who knew the locals but didn't know lcm- stuck with their local leaders rather than lcm. Since lcm kicked them all out simultaneously, he made it convenient for them to associate with each other. In different places, at least for a time, the locals all split from twi as a group. At ROA 89, attendance was 20% what it had been at ROA 88. Immediately following ROA 89, some of the people who attended left. (Like me-I was there to buy out the bookstore, to observe things for myself to make informed decisions, and to be on-site if, somehow, lcm got sensible and started fixing things.
As for the splits, 20% stayed with lcm, 80% left. I summarized the split around the time by saying that the love left, and the fire stayed. So, the compassionate people were out, and none were to be found in twi after that, when you returned. What was left was people who were willing to be loyal even if it was not sensible to do so. So, people running on lots of conviction- the fire.
So, that's why twi seemed so different from ROA 90 onward (until lcm called off the ROAs.)
This opens up a whole lot of other questions for me like, does God work with unbelievers as well. Maybe the whole rap of "the fruit of the spirit comes from the manifestations" is bogus. QUESTION for the group: did VPW make that up or did he copy it from elsewhere... Stiles, Leonard, or somebody else?
I'm not sure. What I know is that it was neither taken from the Bible, nor does it agree with the Bible, and that's really the important thing to take away from that.
I'm fuzzy on the specifics. We discussed this in detail here 10 or 12 years ago. Most of this sort of thing came from Stiles or Leonard or maybe both. The definitions VPW used in the Advanced Class were lifted almost word-for-word from one of them. I think it may have been Stiles. Anyhow, it's all archived here somewhere. I'm not personally very skilled at locating old discussions. But, yeah, it's all here if you're motivated enough to look for it. At the moment, I'm more motivated to catch another episode of Heavenly Ever After on Netflix.
The definitions of "the manifestations" -the 1.0 versions vpw taught in "his" class on Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,- those came straight from Leonard. The later versions added lots of multisyllabic words, all to obscure the source, none of them of any use.
"The manifestation of <name> is your operation of the God-given ability where with, you may receive from God, by His revealing unto you..." That got slapped at the beginning of all of them, and it didn't improve the old definitions. If he was making "improvements," there were things he could have done. According to Leonard, "Word of Knowledge" is "certain truths or facts about which it is impossible for you to know by your 5 senses." vpw kept that part. But it's needlessly exclusive. If you COULD know something but simply DON'T, God Almighty isn't BLOCKED from revealing it. It's such an obvious mistake that cg fixed that in his Advanced class, rendering it "certain truths or facts unknown to you by the 5 senses." Now, THAT works. It makes sense, and it technically accurate. (Sadly, he kept on making changes, and some of them were NOT improvements.) I remember that one because I took CG's Adv class. I had the definitions to study beforehand. I was ready to ask about that particular definition- only to discover cg had already fixed it.
I'm not sure about "fruit of the spirit" there. If I were to offer a GUESS, I'd recommend someone check Bullinger, in HtEtB and/or the Companion Bible.
I'm just going to tell you my opinion. Of course you can disagree.
Respectfully, you're very certain about things you know nothing about. But, I' m not here to convince anyone of anything, either.
Keep in mind that you may hold any opinion you wish, but not all of them can be posted here. Inflammatory posts and personal attacks are not permitted. So, if your opinion is, say, that Christian dentists have no souls, you can keep that but you can't post it here because it's an attack on the Christian dentists. Ignoring simple warnings, BTW, doesn't mean you get to just do whatever, either. It just means you decided to make more work for the Moderation staff, since you decide you won't control yourself, so they have to do it for you.
The GSC is not a "Christians only" or a "Christian=specific" forum. Everyone is welcome to post, regardless of position, beliefs, and where they are in their life.
That having been said, not everything is welcome to be posted. It's not acceptable to dump insults on posters just because they're Christians, and it's not acceptable to dump insults on posters just because they're NOT Christians. So, no slams just because people are atheists or agnostics (which doesn't mean everyone else is free game for insults.) You have choices. Either refrain from posts like that, or just admit you can't control yourself and go elsewhere to post. You can always make your own message board and post whatever you'd like on it. The other possibility is to disregard the GSC rules and common manners and lay into people without restriction. Of course, that means that the Moderators are going to have to take action. Those who can't control themselves will require others adding control to them. That's true just about everywhere. Naturally, you can ignore my post or make fun of it, but a word to the wise is sufficient.
Just trying to understand how poking fun at the logical conclusions of atheism is a worse offense that calling some Christian groups preposterous, pretentious and extreme prophetic phoniness.
You know nothing about what I do or do not know. What I said about those groups can easily be documented. I will do so if you're interested but not tonight - it's too late.
Since you separated sexual abuse into a separate offense, tell us about the extreme prophetic phoniness.
Also, tell us what if any of the supernatural you believe might be authentic. I have some familiarity with all of those groups and frequented two of them many times.
Between the 88 and 89 ROA, lcm drew his line in the sand. vpw used to take people in isolation on grounds, and occasionally threaten to kick them out for incompetence unless they swore an oath of allegiance to him. He pulled this privately and in quiet because vpw knew it was wrong. vpw taught lcm. Among the things he taught him was that lcm was going to have to "loosen up" on the subject of sex and sex acts with women other than his wife if he wanted to lead God's people. He convinced lcm that vpw was the real thing. So, when lcm did things vpw did, lcm believed they were OK with God Almighty, so he didn't cover his tracks so much..which is why he got caught.
So, 1985 was "Passing of the Patriarch." For a few years, lcm wandered the grounds in a fog (according to him.) After that (1988), lcm drew his line in the sand. He contacted ALL the twi leaders above twig level. He demanded an oath of allegiance to him PERSONALLY. We know this because one of our posters got this message, and phoned lcm directly. He said it sounded like lcm was saying they all had to follow him BLINDLY (his emphasis, not mine.) lcm claimed that was what he was already doing. "If that's what you really think, you can kiss my @$$$" *hangs up*
lcm demanded that everyone choose between himself and Geer. Most leaders said they refused to choose among men, and/or said they chose to stand with God, period. So, lcm fired all of them. In one fell swoop, 80% of all the leaders in twi were fired, and letters were sent to everyone with the names of everyone in their state who was canned, and saying they were canned for following their lusts and so on. When that happened, the people- who knew the locals but didn't know lcm- stuck with their local leaders rather than lcm. Since lcm kicked them all out simultaneously, he made it convenient for them to associate with each other. In different places, at least for a time, the locals all split from twi as a group. At ROA 89, attendance was 20% what it had been at ROA 88. Immediately following ROA 89, some of the people who attended left. (Like me-I was there to buy out the bookstore, to observe things for myself to make informed decisions, and to be on-site if, somehow, lcm got sensible and started fixing things.
As for the splits, 20% stayed with lcm, 80% left. I summarized the split around the time by saying that the love left, and the fire stayed. So, the compassionate people were out, and none were to be found in twi after that, when you returned. What was left was people who were willing to be loyal even if it was not sensible to do so. So, people running on lots of conviction- the fire.
So, that's why twi seemed so different from ROA 90 onward (until lcm called off the ROAs.)
See, now this is interesting. I was never told the backstory. I was really disappointed in '93 because my young nephew joined me at the Rock that year. Everyone knows what it's like trying to communicate your faith or the reasons for your faith. Well, the Rock was nothing like I told him it was. It just wasn't worth it. Now I know why.
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Raf
WW kind of sideswiped a theory I've been working under for the past few years. I've brought it up before but it bears repeating. I have a suspicion (not enough evidence to call it a theory) that
Oakspear
Almost thou persuadest me to be an atheist
Raf
This is getting obnoxious
Raf
This is getting obnoxious
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Charity
Yeah, I was kind of hoping for one straight answer as to exactly why you left twi or were you kicked out?
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Nathan_Jr
LMFAO!!
I don’t think he ever said. He went to ROA ‘87-‘88, got blessed in spite of being high all the time, tried to go WOW, but the AC rejected his application, then he hopped from charlatan to charlatan and got kicked out of at least one other cult, IHOP.
It’s hard to tell.
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Oakspear
Almost thou persuadest me to be an atheist
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oldiesman
This may be one of the most important topics of our time, i.e., What is Hell? I think Martin Luther struggled with it; certainly I do. Still haven't decided yet, still open to possibilities. Here's another book that I think we discussed at some point in the past:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=32180704645&dest=usa&ref_=ps_ggl_17730880232&cm_mmc=ggl-_-US_Shopp_Trade_10to20-_-product_id=COM9780595143429USED-_-keyword=&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=17190383924&gbraid=0AAAAAD3Y6guhSTjDY6oAFsx9lSu4SnsCN&gclid=CjwKCAjwo4rCBhAbEiwAxhJlCSy6Q8uurSSH4soZ9p8JiiXjAh8S4jIwrnkXakdETCyLGnk95MVBbhoCj6kQAvD_BwE
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oldiesman
After watching many episodes of "The Practice" and enjoying it immensely, I have to admit, "It's Possible".
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oldiesman
This opens up a whole lot of other questions for me like, does God work with unbelievers as well. Maybe the whole rap of "the fruit of the spirit comes from the manifestations" is bogus. QUESTION for the group: did VPW make that up or did he copy it from elsewhere... Stiles, Leonard, or somebody else?
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waysider
Yes, he copied it.
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Raf
I no longer have the books that demonstrate what concepts Wierwille lifted word for word. I would suspect Christians would care more about the content than the source when evaluating the doctrines, and that conversation, of course, belongs in Doctrinal (we have a new sub forum dedicated specifically to twi doctrine. Feel free).
The question of whether he plagiarized or made it up stays here.
I don't care much either way. Should we still?
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oldiesman
Do you know who from and what book?
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oldiesman
Only if one wants to see it in the original... and who knows, maybe there's something there that's different...
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JoyfulSoul
As I tell my sister, I am my favorite subject. So OK, the Rock in 87 and 88. Highlights of my Christian experience.
Went into the Army. Met up with a guy trying to establish The Way in Germany but nothing came of it.
Got out in 93 and joined a twig. Went to the Rock and this time it was awful. Grounds weren't immaculate as they used to be. The love, joy and family were gone. I found LCMs preaching to be caustic and controlling. It was later that fall I had that demonic episode I wrote about. Eventually I split with my twig leader and The Way.
In my experience, The Way changed between '88 and '93. I know it is different for everybody, many thought it was over before I took PFAL.
A little extra, would Christianity ever be the same again? The Way was gone, was that glorious experience of Christianity gone, too?
Sometime around 96 or 97 the providential hand of God (just humor me, OK?) brought me to Morningstar Fellowship in Charlotte, NC. Truly, it was a 'God thing' (read: psychotic event). My walk with Christ (in my imagination) opened up new chapters and new vistas and even though the experience of love in Christian family (no thanks to VP, I'm sure) was never the same, interaction with other worlds became even better- like...way better (don't bogart that bong) ...
Hard getting away from my favorite subject but you did ask.
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waysider
I'm fuzzy on the specifics. We discussed this in detail here 10 or 12 years ago. Most of this sort of thing came from Stiles or Leonard or maybe both. The definitions VPW used in the Advanced Class were lifted almost word-for-word from one of them. I think it may have been Stiles. Anyhow, it's all archived here somewhere. I'm not personally very skilled at locating old discussions. But, yeah, it's all here if you're motivated enough to look for it. At the moment, I'm more motivated to catch another episode of Heavenly Ever After on Netflix.
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Charity
I think you know that twi will have none of the preposterous, pretentious and extreme prophetic phoniness that ministries like Morningstar (and IHOPKC, Gateway Church, Bethel Church, and others) prosper in, but they all do share in twi's history of there being sexual abuse. Now, do they all practice lovebombing like twi - that I do not know.
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JoyfulSoul
I'm just going to tell you my opinion. Of course you can disagree.
Respectfully, you're very certain about things you know nothing about. But, I' m not here to convince anyone of anything, either.
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Charity
You know nothing about what I do or do not know. What I said about those groups can easily be documented. I will do so if you're interested but not tonight - it's too late.
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WordWolf
The GSC is not a "Christians only" or a "Christian=specific" forum. Everyone is welcome to post, regardless of position, beliefs, and where they are in their life.
That having been said, not everything is welcome to be posted. It's not acceptable to dump insults on posters just because they're Christians, and it's not acceptable to dump insults on posters just because they're NOT Christians. So, no slams just because people are atheists or agnostics (which doesn't mean everyone else is free game for insults.) You have choices. Either refrain from posts like that, or just admit you can't control yourself and go elsewhere to post. You can always make your own message board and post whatever you'd like on it. The other possibility is to disregard the GSC rules and common manners and lay into people without restriction. Of course, that means that the Moderators are going to have to take action. Those who can't control themselves will require others adding control to them. That's true just about everywhere. Naturally, you can ignore my post or make fun of it, but a word to the wise is sufficient.
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WordWolf
Between the 88 and 89 ROA, lcm drew his line in the sand. vpw used to take people in isolation on grounds, and occasionally threaten to kick them out for incompetence unless they swore an oath of allegiance to him. He pulled this privately and in quiet because vpw knew it was wrong. vpw taught lcm. Among the things he taught him was that lcm was going to have to "loosen up" on the subject of sex and sex acts with women other than his wife if he wanted to lead God's people. He convinced lcm that vpw was the real thing. So, when lcm did things vpw did, lcm believed they were OK with God Almighty, so he didn't cover his tracks so much..which is why he got caught.
So, 1985 was "Passing of the Patriarch." For a few years, lcm wandered the grounds in a fog (according to him.) After that (1988), lcm drew his line in the sand. He contacted ALL the twi leaders above twig level. He demanded an oath of allegiance to him PERSONALLY. We know this because one of our posters got this message, and phoned lcm directly. He said it sounded like lcm was saying they all had to follow him BLINDLY (his emphasis, not mine.) lcm claimed that was what he was already doing. "If that's what you really think, you can kiss my @$$$" *hangs up*
lcm demanded that everyone choose between himself and Geer. Most leaders said they refused to choose among men, and/or said they chose to stand with God, period. So, lcm fired all of them. In one fell swoop, 80% of all the leaders in twi were fired, and letters were sent to everyone with the names of everyone in their state who was canned, and saying they were canned for following their lusts and so on. When that happened, the people- who knew the locals but didn't know lcm- stuck with their local leaders rather than lcm. Since lcm kicked them all out simultaneously, he made it convenient for them to associate with each other. In different places, at least for a time, the locals all split from twi as a group. At ROA 89, attendance was 20% what it had been at ROA 88. Immediately following ROA 89, some of the people who attended left. (Like me-I was there to buy out the bookstore, to observe things for myself to make informed decisions, and to be on-site if, somehow, lcm got sensible and started fixing things.
As for the splits, 20% stayed with lcm, 80% left. I summarized the split around the time by saying that the love left, and the fire stayed. So, the compassionate people were out, and none were to be found in twi after that, when you returned. What was left was people who were willing to be loyal even if it was not sensible to do so. So, people running on lots of conviction- the fire.
So, that's why twi seemed so different from ROA 90 onward (until lcm called off the ROAs.)
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WordWolf
I'm not sure. What I know is that it was neither taken from the Bible, nor does it agree with the Bible, and that's really the important thing to take away from that.
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WordWolf
The definitions of "the manifestations" -the 1.0 versions vpw taught in "his" class on Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,- those came straight from Leonard. The later versions added lots of multisyllabic words, all to obscure the source, none of them of any use.
"The manifestation of <name> is your operation of the God-given ability where with, you may receive from God, by His revealing unto you..." That got slapped at the beginning of all of them, and it didn't improve the old definitions. If he was making "improvements," there were things he could have done. According to Leonard, "Word of Knowledge" is "certain truths or facts about which it is impossible for you to know by your 5 senses." vpw kept that part. But it's needlessly exclusive. If you COULD know something but simply DON'T, God Almighty isn't BLOCKED from revealing it. It's such an obvious mistake that cg fixed that in his Advanced class, rendering it "certain truths or facts unknown to you by the 5 senses." Now, THAT works. It makes sense, and it technically accurate. (Sadly, he kept on making changes, and some of them were NOT improvements.) I remember that one because I took CG's Adv class. I had the definitions to study beforehand. I was ready to ask about that particular definition- only to discover cg had already fixed it.
I'm not sure about "fruit of the spirit" there. If I were to offer a GUESS, I'd recommend someone check Bullinger, in HtEtB and/or the Companion Bible.
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WordWolf
Keep in mind that you may hold any opinion you wish, but not all of them can be posted here. Inflammatory posts and personal attacks are not permitted. So, if your opinion is, say, that Christian dentists have no souls, you can keep that but you can't post it here because it's an attack on the Christian dentists. Ignoring simple warnings, BTW, doesn't mean you get to just do whatever, either. It just means you decided to make more work for the Moderation staff, since you decide you won't control yourself, so they have to do it for you.
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JoyfulSoul
Just trying to understand how poking fun at the logical conclusions of atheism is a worse offense that calling some Christian groups preposterous, pretentious and extreme prophetic phoniness.
Maybe you can guide me in this nuance?
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JoyfulSoul
Since you separated sexual abuse into a separate offense, tell us about the extreme prophetic phoniness.
Also, tell us what if any of the supernatural you believe might be authentic. I have some familiarity with all of those groups and frequented two of them many times.
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JoyfulSoul
See, now this is interesting. I was never told the backstory. I was really disappointed in '93 because my young nephew joined me at the Rock that year. Everyone knows what it's like trying to communicate your faith or the reasons for your faith. Well, the Rock was nothing like I told him it was. It just wasn't worth it. Now I know why.
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