Veneration of Mary: Are Catholics right after all?

[oldiesman]

The following information came to me in an email and thought some of us may want to think about and discuss it.     I can tell you from personal experience in TWI that I didn't think as highly of Mary the mother of Jesus as I should have.   Maybe you feel the same way I do, but now I regret that.    The links are not clickable here but let me know if you want me to post them.   Thank you.

 

Charlie Kirk and the Journey Home--Both Christine Niles of Stella Maris Media and Raymond Arroyo of Fox News (38:01) and EWTN are reporting that, in the last few months of his life, Charlie Kirk and his wife had been attending Mass at Saint Bernadette Parish in Scottsdale, Arizona.

Kirk, the Founder and CEO of Turning Point USA, was raised Presbyterian, and had long identified as an Evangelical.

In July, he surprised many of his followers when he said the solution to toxic feminism was the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Kirk said that "I think we as Protestants and Evangelicals under-venerate Mary. She was very important. She was a vessel for our Lord and Savior....We don't talk about Mary enough. We don't venerate her enough. Mary was clearly important to early Christians."

The cruel, savage and premeditated murder of Charlie Kirk may well have been demonic in origin. Let us hope and pray that Charlie Kirk attained the eternal destiny which he was seeking, and let us pray for his wife and children, who have suffered a grievous and inconsolable loss.
 

[oldiesman]

Oops I guess the links are working... 

[waysider]

[Human without the bean]

They are now.

[Raf]

Out of respect:

You posted this in atheism. You do NOT want to know what I think of Charlie Kirk.

So I will move it and I will ask that we refrain from referring to the killer's motive as "demonic," which (under the umbrella of the atheism forum) is a lazy scapegoating that robs a homicidal a-hole of responsibility for his despicable act.

And I will ask that we refrain from politics, which is impossible in a conversation about Charlie Kirk (which is why I feel compelled to change the name of the thread).

So henceforth, this thread is narrowed to the following:

Quote

Kirk said that "I think we as Protestants and Evangelicals under-venerate Mary. She was very important. She was a vessel for our Lord and Savior....We don't talk about Mary enough. We don't venerate her enough. Mary was clearly important to early Christians."
 

Do we agree? [moving to doctrinal).

[waysider]

This seems rather disingenuous and hypocritical, coming from someone who was known to be an outspoken misogynist. One might even suspect he was pandering.

Is that too far off topic? Remove if necessary.

[oldiesman]

2 hours ago, Raf said:

Out of respect:

You posted this in atheism. You do NOT want to know what I think of Charlie Kirk.

So I will move it and I will ask that we refrain from referring to the killer's motive as "demonic," which (under the umbrella of the atheism forum) is a lazy scapegoating that robs a homicidal a-hole of responsibility for his despicable act.

And I will ask that we refrain from politics, which is impossible in a conversation about Charlie Kirk (which is why I feel compelled to change the name of the thread).

So henceforth, this thread is narrowed to the following:

Do we agree? [moving to doctrinal).

Raf please do what you feel is best.     My sole reason for this post was to discuss Mary the Mother of Jesus and what Kirk said about Christians not venerating her enough.   If he was right then we, whoever wants to, may do good to give it some appreciable thought...thx

[waysider]

1 hour ago, oldiesman said:

 My sole reason for this post was to discuss Mary the Mother of Jesus and what Kirk said about Christians not venerating her enough.

Will that work?

[WordWolf]

(Yes, I think it was crazy to post this in the sub forum in which it started. That was just BEGGING for a flame post...which would have been on subject for the sub forum. 

 

I think there is a False Dilemma at work, and I am going to identify it. 

 

Mrs Wolf has suggested to me previously (with merit, I believe) that Mary veneration, at least the modern type and much of what led to it, springs from the practice of Christianity being an Old Boys Club.   Women can easily feel left out of things, and Mary veneration helps address that. 

My problem is that I feel that the usual methods of addressing that would be veneration of Mary (prayers to her, etc.)  or veneration of female saints (prayers to them, etc.), and I find EITHER to be doctrinal error, at best. 

I think we may agree on the problem but not with the solution. I find Mary veneration to be a lazy solution to a deeper problem, one that calls for answers that are doctrinally sound while still addressing the problem. 

It seems ridiculous to have to say it, but Christianity needs women, and Christianity has room for women, and there is a lot for women there, both to offer them and for them to do, if action is the goal.  

We do not need to address that by embracing error.  

(I'm not aiming this at any posters here, just at the doctrine. Please try not to see offense in it. If I've offended in passing, I'm sorry.) 

[oldiesman]

11 hours ago, waysider said:

Will that work?

I didn't believe in striking the guy's name since it was his idea in the first place, but whatever Raf wants to do with this thread is fine by me.    

[oldiesman]

3 hours ago, WordWolf said:

(Yes, I think it was crazy to post this in the sub forum in which it started. That was just BEGGING for a flame post...which would have been on subject for the sub forum. 

 

I think there is a False Dilemma at work, and I am going to identify it. 

 

Mrs Wolf has suggested to me previously (with merit, I believe) that Mary veneration, at least the modern type and much of what led to it, springs from the practice of Christianity being an Old Boys Club.   Women can easily feel left out of things, and Mary veneration helps address that. 

My problem is that I feel that the usual methods of addressing that would be veneration of Mary (prayers to her, etc.)  or veneration of female saints (prayers to them, etc.), and I find EITHER to be doctrinal error, at best. 

I think we may agree on the problem but not with the solution. I find Mary veneration to be a lazy solution to a deeper problem, one that calls for answers that are doctrinally sound while still addressing the problem. 

It seems ridiculous to have to say it, but Christianity needs women, and Christianity has room for women, and there is a lot for women there, both to offer them and for them to do, if action is the goal.  

We do not need to address that by embracing error.  

(I'm not aiming this at any posters here, just at the doctrine. Please try not to see offense in it. If I've offended in passing, I'm sorry.) 

Thank you WordWolf.   Please explain what the error in doctrine is.    If you like, please post what iAsk says what Mary veneration actually is, so we may proceed with the same frame of reference.  Thx.

[Rocky]

16 hours ago, oldiesman said:

I didn't believe in striking the guy's name since it was his idea in the first place, but whatever Raf wants to do with this thread is fine by me.    

Frankly, I don't believe the idea originated with Kirk. I concur w/ the edit. 

[oldiesman]

This was in today's church bulletin and thought it would be appropriate to discuss inside this thread:

Seven Sorrows of the Blessed Virgin Mary

The seven sorrows of the Blessed Virgin Mary, also known as Our Lady of Sorrows or Mater Dolorosa, are significant events in Mary's life that caused her profound grief and are a popular devotion in the Catholic Church.  These sorrows are frequently depicted in art and are distinct from the five Sorrowful Mysteries of the Rosary [1] [2].

According to www.iAsk.Ai - Ask AI:

The traditional seven sorrows are:

1. The Prophecy of Simeon: When Mary and Joseph presented the infant Jesus at the Temple, Simeon prophesied to Mary, "And you yourself a sword will pierce" (Luke 2:35), indicating the future suffering she would endure because of her son [3] [4] [5]. This prophecy foreshadowed the immense pain Mary would experience throughout Jesus' life and passion [6].
2. The Flight into Egypt: Warned by an angel in a dream that King Herod intended to kill Jesus, Joseph took Mary and the child and fled to Egypt to escape the persecution (Matthew 2:13-14) [3] [4] [5]. This forced journey into a foreign land brought hardship and fear to the Holy Family [6].
3. The Loss of the Child Jesus in the Temple: When Jesus was twelve years old, Mary and Joseph lost him for three days during their return journey from Jerusalem after the Passover feast. They found him in the Temple, listening to and questioning the teachers (Luke 2:43-50) [3] [4] [5]. This period of anxious searching caused Mary great distress [6].
4. Mary Meets Jesus on the Way to Calvary: As Jesus carried his cross to his crucifixion, Mary met him on the Via Dolorosa. This encounter, though not explicitly detailed in the Gospels, is a traditional Fourth Station of the Cross, depicting her immense sorrow at seeing her son's suffering and humiliation [3] [4] [5] [7].
5. The Crucifixion of Jesus: Mary stood at the foot of the cross as Jesus was crucified (John 19:25-27) [3] [4] [5]. Witnessing her son's agonizing death was an unspeakable sorrow, fulfilling Simeon's prophecy [6].
6. Jesus' Body is Taken Down from the Cross: After Jesus' death, his body was taken down from the cross and placed in Mary's arms, a scene often depicted in art as the Pietà (Mark 15:42-46) [3] [4] [5]. This moment represented profound grief as she held her lifeless son [6].
7. The Burial of Jesus: Mary witnessed the burial of Jesus in the tomb (John 19:38-42) [3] [4] [5]. This final act of laying her son to rest brought immense sorrow and a sense of finality, though her faith in God's plan remained [6].

Devotion to Our Lady of Sorrows has a long history, particularly gaining prominence around the 11th century in Western Christianity [2]. The Servite Order, founded in 1233, significantly contributed to the spread of this devotion, developing practices such as the Rosary of the Seven Sorrows and the Black Scapular of the Seven Dolours of Mary [2] [8]. The feast of Our Lady of Sorrows is celebrated liturgically every September 15th [1] [4].

---

Authoritative Sources

1. Our Lady of Sorrows. [Wikipedia]↩
2. Memorial of Our Lady of Sorrows. [Vatican News]↩
3. The Seven Sorrows of Mary. [Catholic Relief Services]↩
4. The Seven Sorrows of Mary. [Franciscan Media]↩
5. What are the 7 Sorrows of Mary? [Aleteia]↩
6. Seven Sorrows of our Blessed Mother. [Our Lady of the Rosary Library]↩
7. The Seven Sorrows for Today. [Boston College Church in the 21st Century Center]↩
8. Our Lady's Seven Sorrows, Seven Promises, and Fatima's Connection. [National Catholic Register]↩

Answer Provided by iAsk.ai – Ask AI.

[modcat5]

On 9/12/2025 at 3:48 PM, waysider said:

This seems rather disingenuous and hypocritical, coming from someone who was known to be an outspoken misogynist. One might even suspect he was pandering.

Is that too far off topic? Remove if necessary.

Yah, necessary ;)

[waysider]

[Raf]

16 hours ago, oldiesman said:

This was in today's church bulletin and thought it would be appropriate to discuss inside this thread:

Seven Sorrows of the Blessed Virgin Mary

The seven sorrows of the Blessed Virgin Mary, also known as Our Lady of Sorrows or Mater Dolorosa, are significant events in Mary's life that caused her profound grief and are a popular devotion in the Catholic Church.  These sorrows are frequently depicted in art and are distinct from the five Sorrowful Mysteries of the Rosary [1] [2].

...

 

And THIS is why this post had to be removed from ATHEISM/Questioning Faith.

Because as an unbeliever I would have torn this to shreds. 

But believers should feel comfortable discussing it without worrying about what unbelievers think, which, let's be honest, if kinda predictable.

 

[oldiesman]

37 minutes ago, Raf said:

And THIS is why this post had to be removed from ATHEISM/Questioning Faith.

Because as an unbeliever I would have torn this to shreds. 

But believers should feel comfortable discussing it without worrying about what unbelievers think, which, let's be honest, if kinda predictable.

 

Thank Raf.   Also if you would, please change the name of this thread to "Mary Veneration" as you suggested earlier....and if you feel like starting a thread debunking "Mary Veneration" please do so and I will read your side of the story.  Thx...

Edited 2 hours ago by oldiesman