Even if she 'wanted' it, he being the 'spiritual one' should have said "NO Madame Not for me! I'm a minister of God." (this is hypothetical obviously!)
quote:Let me pose this to you: A parent has sex with a child, who is responsible? A teacher has sex with a student...who is responsible? A 25 year old has sex with a 14 year old...are you going to tell me that is ok if the 14 year old Wants it?
Radar,
You are correct, children are not responsible for their actions.
quote:Even if she 'wanted' it, he being the 'spiritual one' should have said "NO Madame Not for me! I'm a minister of God." (this is hypothetical obviously!)
A La Prochaine,
Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But if the man doesn't do the right thing but instead gives in to his manly urges, why does it always have to be about power and control (which in the argument is like being compared to rape)?
This is the premise of this entire argument, that its ALWAYS about power and control in the male.
As I said, I don't doubt that happens; but saying it ALWAYS does is, in my opinion, rather extreme.
"Always" is a general and collective term and I think most of us realize that. Is it really necessary for you to nit-pick so? From what I have read, ALMOST ALL cases involve NOT love, romance or even horniness, but power and control issues. Just like rape.
Are adults responsible for their actions, yes. But these women were also highly coerced... physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually manipulated and preyed upon.
I'd say that relieves them of a great deal of the responsibility and places it squarely on the shoulders of the one doing the manipulating!!
Like it or not, even the courts acknowlege "mitigating circumstances".
If you think that life is only black and only white, you are not living in reality.
It is ALWAYS ABOUT POWER when the aggressor is in POWER over the victim.
Maybe it isn't about power to the Aggressor (man or woman) but it is about power to the VICTIM (man or woman) and that is the perspective that counts. You are under the assumption that we only think it is rape or assault when the aggressor is a man and the victim is a woman. YOU ARE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. It would be assault/rape if the aggressor was a woman and the victim is a man if the scenario is set up because the aggressor is ABLE to approach and deceive the victim because of the aggressor's position.
Do you think any normal young woman would VOLUNTARILY go off and have sex with lcm if he had been a bagger at the grocery store? Hell NO!
quote:Are adults responsible for their actions, yes. But these women were also highly coerced... physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually manipulated and preyed upon.
I'd say that relieves them of a great deal of the responsibility and places it squarely on the shoulders of the one doing the manipulating!!
The Highway,
I would say that whether an individual was highly coerced is a matter to be determined by the facts in that particular situation.
If you are claiming that ALL the women in TWI who had sex with ministers were so highly cooerced and manipulated to the point they were not responsible for their actions, then I would have to decline from that extreme viewpoint. However, I will agree that some fall in that category.
It is always about power. I agree with you Radar et al. ALWAYS! ALWAYS!!
People that rape or "coerce someone into having sex" (same thing) have serious mental issues. Power issues. Gender issues. Insecurity issues. It is more complex than being horny.
Are they "horny". I guess. Personally, I really don't like that term.
There is healthy attraction and unhealthy attraction. There are healthy sexual urges and unhealthy ones.
I have to go but... COME ON!!! oldies, WG
PLEASE!!!
There are far tooo many women that this happens to. 1 in 3?
With the women I've known and met it seems like even more than that. It is sick.
WG, this may shed some light on your question. I apologize for how long it is, but it is very good information. I've posted a lot more on the 'Godly Sorrow' thread of TroubleWine's.
While this lawsuit was going on, there were *quite* a few other women lined up behind the Axxxxs who were preparing to bring their own suits against Martindale and the BOT. They were carefully watching the developments as the case progressed. There was plenty of support for Pxxx and Fxxx while the suit was going on. The support was bouying these women who wanted to bring their own cases.
When the case settled, these women watched GreaseSpot for the reactinon among the ex-way community and were appalled at the number of people who did NOT support the Axxxxs in their settlement, but instead railed on Pxxx for selling out. There was a horrible backlash of people who had seemed to support the Axxxxs before, who upon learning of the settlement, said some pretty stupid, selfish, and untrue things about Pxxx and Fxxx.
I know for a *fact* that it was this lack of support for the Axxxxs among this community that caused these women to DROP their plans.
It's hard enough to be brave enough to front the expense, build your case, and bring it to court to be revictimized by the attorneys for the defense. But to then be vilified among those who claimed to be your supporters for settling your case? That's too much to bear.
Xxx
Thanks for bringing this point out into the open. I totally agree with you.
From the very beginning, Pxxx was a true man who stood up for his wife to protect her in every aspect. First he confronted the MOGFOT himself, with a man right outside the other room with a gun. He gave LCM and the BOT every chance to settle this before he filed a lawsuit. If the BOT had agreed, most likely none of us would have ever heard of the problem in the first place. Very plausible.
Due to the BOTS own ego's and self grandeurized ideas, they probably never dreamed Pxxx would take it as far as he took it. They thought they were untouchable. Waydale comes onto the scene.
Again being the man that he was, he not only protected his wife from the backlash of some of the topics on the forums, but every other victim also.
Remember when we all got together with the attorney. We were there to help validate the Axxxx's case. Our experiences with TWI that we would testify about, were to back up and substantiate their claims.
I believe he was upfront right from the beginning as to what he was doing. At least in every conversation I ever had with him, there was no doubt in my mind that he wanted truthful, non-imbellished experiences to back him up for his case.
I believe that there have been so many very hurtful things done to those that were done in TWI, that when it seemed that someone was actually going to take down these ego-driven, hard hearted Pharisee types, the emotional momentum really picked up and people felt they would be vindicated by proxy. In other words, if the Axxxxs went to court and laid every thing on the line, and TWI went bankrupt or LCM went to prison, that the vindication would be for the entire ex-way community. This is very understandable how this could happen.
In my humble opinion, it takes a village to take down a dilapated TWI. I think as a whole, we are all slowly chipping away at the foundation now. It won't be long before the foundation will be washed away. But it is all of us working together and continuing to expose the dastardly deeds of the BOT. It is not one person (and then we put all of our eggs in his basket).
I would love to see more women come forth so that those that are still in can see the truth and then be set free. I for one will continue to support anyone who has the gumption to take it on. But no one can fault another.
I can say these things cuz..............iamfreenow
Xxxx
I would love to see those women come forward too.
However they have determined that they will not, because they saw the lack of support from the ex-way community in the Axxxx case, once they decided to settle. It's hard enough to stand up and take what the defense attorneys dish out. But it's even harder to see people who swore allegience to you, turn around and blacken your character when they see you have decided to settle out of court.
xxx
The Axxxxs are only proceeded by Jesus Christ. After Him, then its the ex-twi family that offered me their hearts, hands, and home when I escaped TWI and my brother who traveled over 500 miles to help me move in the middle of the night.
I supported the Axxxxs in everyway I could concerning their lawsuit. And I was never critical of their decision to settle out of court.
That said?.
The women who decided to drop their law suits should not pass the blame on to those who posted criticizing the Axxxxs decision to settle out of court. The number of those that voiced their disappointment with the settlement was relatively few compared to those that rallied to the defense of the Axxxxs. Some of those critical posters have not been heard from since. (Makes you go humm??..)
A woman who was victimized by LCM and/or the BOT/RC/LC/BC should follow through on their initial decision to sue. If the voicing of the few malcontents could so easily dissuade someone then it may be best that they not proceed on. The Axxxxs had to withstand a lot worse, pushing the lawsuit as far as they did. It takes courage to do what the Axxxxs did!!!
IMHO, I would think that the Axxxxs case settlement would have made it easier for someone to receive a similar settlement from TWI. These women could have, very possibly, brought TWI to its knees. I don?t think the income of TWI is enough to keep paying out settlements similar to the Axxxxs.
To anyone that dropped their lawsuit, I am truly sorry you were abused by twi and I pray that you find healing, peace and joy in the life that is ahead of you. But please don?t live your life wondering what may have happened if you had pressed on against twi and blaming Greasespot posters for not doing so.
xxxx
Very true, because you have to be really tough skinned to go up against those defense attorneys. I remember one of them called me prior to the trial and introduced himself. He was very friendly and he asked me if I had ever been to court. I told him I had and either he or I said that he would be the one calling me a liar. Thats his job. When I would be on the stand it would be his job to discredit my testimony. I didn't have nearly at stake what the Axxxx's did, so I can only imagine what had been going on in Fxxx's mind.
I was merely making an observation of the dynamics that were going on leading up to the trial. I was not judging those dynamics. If anyone thinks I was I sincerely apologize. It is not up to me to tell you what you should do. I certainly was not trying to.
xxx
Having been involved in a number of issues involving employees and management, when it comes to actually taking action versus talking about the injustice, you will most likely go it alone. There was no union, so it was employees confronting management about problems we saw. Every worker had the same complaints about the boss and all said they wanted to bring the issues up. We decided to bring the issues up at a monthly company meeting and I volunteered to spearhead it. As I began bringing the grievances up I was sure I could count the other employees support. To my dismay absolutely no one backed me up. When asked by the boss if they had the same complaints as I, they all said "it wasn't a really big issue with them". I felt what a waste of my time to bring it up and deserted by everyone.
For a woman to go before a public court and disclose events of a sexual nature requires much support. If she thinks that support, real or imagined, vaporizes it can be devastating. I can see how some would mistaken posts on GS for support. Many of the posts are very adimant about the wrongs done by TWI and support the idea of justice via the courts. Obviously some woman were inclined to pursue this avenue because of perceived support here, but realized it really isn't there after the response to the Axxxx's actions.
xxx
I don't know if those very early posts are still on the pages on GS or if they have been removed. But for weeks, there were people who did *nothing* but denigrate Pxxx Axxxx for his decision. And these were people who had formerly sworn their support.
Thankfully not everyone behaved this way. But a good deal of them did. Enough to convince several women with STRONG cases not to pursue them. The fact that they dropped their pursuit is not a reflection on the strength of their cases, but *rather* the strength of the venom aimed at the Axxxxs for settling their case. It's bad enough to have to stand up to the defense attorneys, but it's worse to be knifed in the back by people who you thought were your supporters.
After having freshly experienced being knifed in the back by people you thought were your friends at TWI, how many of you would truly be willing to go through that all over again with people who have proved how fickle they can be? And in a very public fashion?
quote:Do you think any normal young woman would VOLUNTARILY go off and have sex with lcm if he had been a bagger at the grocery store? Hell NO!
Perhaps, yes. If she wanted to have sex with him.
What you seem to be suggesting is, ALL the women in TWI who had sex with ministers didn't have the option to just say "no". They are ALL victims, regardless of whether they wanted it or not. They are ALL victims (of rape?).
I think this is as extreme as you can get. Adults that are not mentally ill can say "no", no matter what gender they are.
yes, THERE WERE women who "accused" vp and others..... and... they were shown the door, hushed up, "shunned", accused of being tripped out, etc., etc. And, yes, I did not believe them either--mostly because that was company policy in those days, I am ashamed to say. If I had more love and less "twi-style believing", perhaps I would have had the balls to support them-who knows??
To all the folks on here who never saw it--get over it, you just didn't see it and most did not. Now that all is said and done, I have come to know of at least an easy half-dozen whom I knew PERSONALLY that were "used" to help "bless" the ole vicenstein...
Who you gonna hold responsible?? some barely legal-age woman-child or the 55-60 something, married, ordained, "PHD"-wielding, father AND self-proclaimed "Father-in-the WERD" man o' gawd o' the last 20 centuries.... SOME of u are as klueless as can be. some OBVIOUSLY wish to remain that way forever...and are to be pitied for their cold, unfeeling, hard-hearted wish and desire to "freeze" the past in some syrupy, glazed-over, self-induced WOW, RACA-style way-o'-vee-pee nirvana
WAKE UP, damn it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He and it wasn't ALL THAT--now get over it. You want to give someone the glory for what was godly, give it to God--and leave it there!!
Watered Garden - last year when the Catholic church was confronted by accusations of predatory behavior by some members of the priesthood and men were speaking up 10, 20, 30 years or more after they had been abused - did you ask the same question? Why didn't they speak up before?
It's a great question. You could probably do an internet serach and find a pyschology paper on why people who are victims remain silent - especially in a controlling group like twi. Silence doesn't mean, of course, that it didn't happen - there are probably dozens of factors that would make one keep silent.
Fear/knowing that no one would believe you.
Not wanting to have to take on the Grand Poo-bah when you're a lowly serf.
Being dragged through it all again and being the subject of a public scandal - imagine knowing what everyone was whispering about you.
To ask another question of you - how many times did you see people leave the Way ™ or get kicked out and you would hear things about them that slandered their reputations? It's embarassing to reflect how quickly we just cut people off without ever getting to hear their side of the story. But who wants to talk to anyone possessed by fiends?
First of all, I edited that line because I thought better of it, but I apologize because you saw it before I took it out.
If I said I knew the moon was made of Roquefort cheese, would you believe me? Of course not. If I said I knew someone who talked to an uncle of an astronaut who said it, would you believe me then?
No one has answered my question yet. And I did ask it in good faith, because this is something that has bothered me since the first time I read "Marsha's story". Why did he get away with it for so long?
Surely someone must have gone to the authorities, not in TWI, but real authorities?
And please don't accuse me of being cold and hard hearted. I'm not. But it would be much easier to believe if he'd been accused while alive. I have reasons for asking this question that I'm not ready to divulge and maybe never will be.
no disrespect intended--perhaps you better tend to those other, personal issues because I seriouly doubt that you will ever receive the answer you are loking for in the form you are looking for...
dear watered garden, are you mad at me for some reason?
i didn't think to go to any authorities because in a very sick way i thought he was the authority
he started on me when i was 18; i was 11 last time i was sexually abused by a family member, which i told dear doctor all about
he told me i needed to be healed in a Godly way from such a horrible ordeal
**
side note, after he died, something in me was a little more free, in that i asked craig not to carry on in his shoes. craig was very very mean to me about that
WG....I understand where you are coming from, you are not one of the normal "neanderthal" posters. This is a tough subject to understand, tough if you are one of the victims, and maybe tougher to understand if you aren't.
If your question is not answered by now....it probably won't ever be, you may already have made your mind up and aren't really interested in putting yourself in someone else's shoes.
Either way.....what is real to the victims is what is real. What is real to the spectators....who cares?
WG, I don't think anyone considers your question malicious or out of line in any way. No one is telling you to shut up. Many women did come forward and they were quickly hushed or escorted out of the organization. Some women committed suicide rather than deal with the pain and embarrassment of coming forward. Many people here have attempted to share with you what they know about why people didn't come forward:
- fear (of many things)
- belief that the behavior wasn't wrong
- belief that they wouldn't be believed (proven that they were right)
- no desire to face the accusations and name calling that would have happened
- the culture/societal norms of the time
- belief that they were the only one it had happened to
- etc.
I tend to think you have an answer you are expecting to hear and since you haven't heard it you think you haven't gotten the answer. OR because those are good enough reasons in your mind. OR it's a very personal and complex mind that reasons why to do and not to do some things.....none of us may truly know the answers to why someone does or doesn't do something.
Your response, IMHO, that no one has answered your question, seems a little harsh.
I don't think the answer would make much difference to many of the people that have set their opinions in stone, however.
Did any of the women go to worldy authorities? police? FBI? etc.
I for one find that the testimony of so many women is highly credible. There are too many witnesses corroborating each other for this to be a lie. I suppose those that still refuse to believe it probably still believe that the Holocaust didn't happen, because that was the official TWI line.
ps. i told him many times i was not able to understand or handle this healing he had in mind
but one time, because i was such an idiot, he gave me a few drinks on the coach going from one campus to another and most of that is a blur or an out of body experience
i am so ashamed i could puke
i was never the same after that
i avoided him like the plague but really he had no interest any more (can't blame him, who wants to "do" a dead person?)
but even then i didn't say anything, my whole "self" was wrapped up in this thing called the way ministry
**
ps. your comments about being a peon made me feel bad. i was in the corps program which is where and how i became the ultimate peon
please don't think i or anyone "normal" still think this way
WG - I think I answered your question in my earlier post. Did you read what happened to Marsha after she left TWI? EVERYONE who knew her was told she was chock-full-of-devil-spirits! We were told to stay away from her. One thing I forgot to add is that V.F. told me that if she contacted me again, I should call him immediately to tell him what she said.
"Why did he get away with it for so long?"
Most of the women I knew that were mistreated by VPW told me that they honestly believed that no one would believe them if they told about their experiences.
There were men who covered for him - like V.F. and many others. They protected him because they believed he was right in what he was doing - all those bible verses to back him up - he was the MOG. Plus, I'd guess that they wanted a piece of the action as well. As long as VP could justify himself - using the bible as his excuse, then they'd be justified if they did it too.
And there was fear! These women knew they'd be kicked out of TWI and branded possessed whores if they said anything. Add to that the fact no one would believe them and higher-ups covered for the MOG - it was a losing battle.
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
43
17
23
32
Popular Days
Jan 29
100
Feb 3
48
Feb 2
36
Feb 4
22
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 43 posts
Raf 17 posts
oldiesman 23 posts
Dot Matrix 32 posts
Popular Days
Jan 29 2003
100 posts
Feb 3 2003
48 posts
Feb 2 2003
36 posts
Feb 4 2003
22 posts
A la prochaine
OLDIES,
I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU ACTUALLY POSTED THAT!
Wake up boy! Time to wake up!
Even if she 'wanted' it, he being the 'spiritual one' should have said "NO Madame Not for me! I'm a minister of God." (this is hypothetical obviously!)
'til the next time...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Radar,
You are correct, children are not responsible for their actions.
But adults who are not mentally ill, are.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
A La Prochaine,
Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But if the man doesn't do the right thing but instead gives in to his manly urges, why does it always have to be about power and control (which in the argument is like being compared to rape)?
This is the premise of this entire argument, that its ALWAYS about power and control in the male.
As I said, I don't doubt that happens; but saying it ALWAYS does is, in my opinion, rather extreme.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
Oldiesman...
"Always" is a general and collective term and I think most of us realize that. Is it really necessary for you to nit-pick so? From what I have read, ALMOST ALL cases involve NOT love, romance or even horniness, but power and control issues. Just like rape.
Are adults responsible for their actions, yes. But these women were also highly coerced... physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually manipulated and preyed upon.
I'd say that relieves them of a great deal of the responsibility and places it squarely on the shoulders of the one doing the manipulating!!
Like it or not, even the courts acknowlege "mitigating circumstances".
If you think that life is only black and only white, you are not living in reality.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Radar OReilly
Oldiesman,
It is ALWAYS ABOUT POWER when the aggressor is in POWER over the victim.
Maybe it isn't about power to the Aggressor (man or woman) but it is about power to the VICTIM (man or woman) and that is the perspective that counts. You are under the assumption that we only think it is rape or assault when the aggressor is a man and the victim is a woman. YOU ARE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. It would be assault/rape if the aggressor was a woman and the victim is a man if the scenario is set up because the aggressor is ABLE to approach and deceive the victim because of the aggressor's position.
Do you think any normal young woman would VOLUNTARILY go off and have sex with lcm if he had been a bagger at the grocery store? Hell NO!
Radar
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
The Highway,
I would say that whether an individual was highly coerced is a matter to be determined by the facts in that particular situation.
If you are claiming that ALL the women in TWI who had sex with ministers were so highly cooerced and manipulated to the point they were not responsible for their actions, then I would have to decline from that extreme viewpoint. However, I will agree that some fall in that category.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
OHMAGOD!!!
It is always about power. I agree with you Radar et al. ALWAYS! ALWAYS!!
People that rape or "coerce someone into having sex" (same thing) have serious mental issues. Power issues. Gender issues. Insecurity issues. It is more complex than being horny.
Are they "horny". I guess. Personally, I really don't like that term.
There is healthy attraction and unhealthy attraction. There are healthy sexual urges and unhealthy ones.
I have to go but... COME ON!!! oldies, WG
PLEASE!!!
There are far tooo many women that this happens to. 1 in 3?
With the women I've known and met it seems like even more than that. It is sick.
I have to go.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
insurgent
From the depths of the archives:
WG, this may shed some light on your question. I apologize for how long it is, but it is very good information. I've posted a lot more on the 'Godly Sorrow' thread of TroubleWine's.
While this lawsuit was going on, there were *quite* a few other women lined up behind the Axxxxs who were preparing to bring their own suits against Martindale and the BOT. They were carefully watching the developments as the case progressed. There was plenty of support for Pxxx and Fxxx while the suit was going on. The support was bouying these women who wanted to bring their own cases.
When the case settled, these women watched GreaseSpot for the reactinon among the ex-way community and were appalled at the number of people who did NOT support the Axxxxs in their settlement, but instead railed on Pxxx for selling out. There was a horrible backlash of people who had seemed to support the Axxxxs before, who upon learning of the settlement, said some pretty stupid, selfish, and untrue things about Pxxx and Fxxx.
I know for a *fact* that it was this lack of support for the Axxxxs among this community that caused these women to DROP their plans.
It's hard enough to be brave enough to front the expense, build your case, and bring it to court to be revictimized by the attorneys for the defense. But to then be vilified among those who claimed to be your supporters for settling your case? That's too much to bear.
Xxx
Thanks for bringing this point out into the open. I totally agree with you.
From the very beginning, Pxxx was a true man who stood up for his wife to protect her in every aspect. First he confronted the MOGFOT himself, with a man right outside the other room with a gun. He gave LCM and the BOT every chance to settle this before he filed a lawsuit. If the BOT had agreed, most likely none of us would have ever heard of the problem in the first place. Very plausible.
Due to the BOTS own ego's and self grandeurized ideas, they probably never dreamed Pxxx would take it as far as he took it. They thought they were untouchable. Waydale comes onto the scene.
Again being the man that he was, he not only protected his wife from the backlash of some of the topics on the forums, but every other victim also.
Remember when we all got together with the attorney. We were there to help validate the Axxxx's case. Our experiences with TWI that we would testify about, were to back up and substantiate their claims.
I believe he was upfront right from the beginning as to what he was doing. At least in every conversation I ever had with him, there was no doubt in my mind that he wanted truthful, non-imbellished experiences to back him up for his case.
I believe that there have been so many very hurtful things done to those that were done in TWI, that when it seemed that someone was actually going to take down these ego-driven, hard hearted Pharisee types, the emotional momentum really picked up and people felt they would be vindicated by proxy. In other words, if the Axxxxs went to court and laid every thing on the line, and TWI went bankrupt or LCM went to prison, that the vindication would be for the entire ex-way community. This is very understandable how this could happen.
In my humble opinion, it takes a village to take down a dilapated TWI. I think as a whole, we are all slowly chipping away at the foundation now. It won't be long before the foundation will be washed away. But it is all of us working together and continuing to expose the dastardly deeds of the BOT. It is not one person (and then we put all of our eggs in his basket).
I would love to see more women come forth so that those that are still in can see the truth and then be set free. I for one will continue to support anyone who has the gumption to take it on. But no one can fault another.
I can say these things cuz..............iamfreenow
Xxxx
I would love to see those women come forward too.
However they have determined that they will not, because they saw the lack of support from the ex-way community in the Axxxx case, once they decided to settle. It's hard enough to stand up and take what the defense attorneys dish out. But it's even harder to see people who swore allegience to you, turn around and blacken your character when they see you have decided to settle out of court.
xxx
The Axxxxs are only proceeded by Jesus Christ. After Him, then its the ex-twi family that offered me their hearts, hands, and home when I escaped TWI and my brother who traveled over 500 miles to help me move in the middle of the night.
I supported the Axxxxs in everyway I could concerning their lawsuit. And I was never critical of their decision to settle out of court.
That said?.
The women who decided to drop their law suits should not pass the blame on to those who posted criticizing the Axxxxs decision to settle out of court. The number of those that voiced their disappointment with the settlement was relatively few compared to those that rallied to the defense of the Axxxxs. Some of those critical posters have not been heard from since. (Makes you go humm??..)
A woman who was victimized by LCM and/or the BOT/RC/LC/BC should follow through on their initial decision to sue. If the voicing of the few malcontents could so easily dissuade someone then it may be best that they not proceed on. The Axxxxs had to withstand a lot worse, pushing the lawsuit as far as they did. It takes courage to do what the Axxxxs did!!!
IMHO, I would think that the Axxxxs case settlement would have made it easier for someone to receive a similar settlement from TWI. These women could have, very possibly, brought TWI to its knees. I don?t think the income of TWI is enough to keep paying out settlements similar to the Axxxxs.
To anyone that dropped their lawsuit, I am truly sorry you were abused by twi and I pray that you find healing, peace and joy in the life that is ahead of you. But please don?t live your life wondering what may have happened if you had pressed on against twi and blaming Greasespot posters for not doing so.
xxxx
Very true, because you have to be really tough skinned to go up against those defense attorneys. I remember one of them called me prior to the trial and introduced himself. He was very friendly and he asked me if I had ever been to court. I told him I had and either he or I said that he would be the one calling me a liar. Thats his job. When I would be on the stand it would be his job to discredit my testimony. I didn't have nearly at stake what the Axxxx's did, so I can only imagine what had been going on in Fxxx's mind.
I was merely making an observation of the dynamics that were going on leading up to the trial. I was not judging those dynamics. If anyone thinks I was I sincerely apologize. It is not up to me to tell you what you should do. I certainly was not trying to.
xxx
Having been involved in a number of issues involving employees and management, when it comes to actually taking action versus talking about the injustice, you will most likely go it alone. There was no union, so it was employees confronting management about problems we saw. Every worker had the same complaints about the boss and all said they wanted to bring the issues up. We decided to bring the issues up at a monthly company meeting and I volunteered to spearhead it. As I began bringing the grievances up I was sure I could count the other employees support. To my dismay absolutely no one backed me up. When asked by the boss if they had the same complaints as I, they all said "it wasn't a really big issue with them". I felt what a waste of my time to bring it up and deserted by everyone.
For a woman to go before a public court and disclose events of a sexual nature requires much support. If she thinks that support, real or imagined, vaporizes it can be devastating. I can see how some would mistaken posts on GS for support. Many of the posts are very adimant about the wrongs done by TWI and support the idea of justice via the courts. Obviously some woman were inclined to pursue this avenue because of perceived support here, but realized it really isn't there after the response to the Axxxx's actions.
xxx
I don't know if those very early posts are still on the pages on GS or if they have been removed. But for weeks, there were people who did *nothing* but denigrate Pxxx Axxxx for his decision. And these were people who had formerly sworn their support.
Thankfully not everyone behaved this way. But a good deal of them did. Enough to convince several women with STRONG cases not to pursue them. The fact that they dropped their pursuit is not a reflection on the strength of their cases, but *rather* the strength of the venom aimed at the Axxxxs for settling their case. It's bad enough to have to stand up to the defense attorneys, but it's worse to be knifed in the back by people who you thought were your supporters.
After having freshly experienced being knifed in the back by people you thought were your friends at TWI, how many of you would truly be willing to go through that all over again with people who have proved how fickle they can be? And in a very public fashion?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Perhaps, yes. If she wanted to have sex with him.
What you seem to be suggesting is, ALL the women in TWI who had sex with ministers didn't have the option to just say "no". They are ALL victims, regardless of whether they wanted it or not. They are ALL victims (of rape?).
I think this is as extreme as you can get. Adults that are not mentally ill can say "no", no matter what gender they are.
People are responsible for their actions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
someone saying i want "glory" would be enough to keep me from going up against wierwille-twi
Link to comment
Share on other sites
alfakat
yes, THERE WERE women who "accused" vp and others..... and... they were shown the door, hushed up, "shunned", accused of being tripped out, etc., etc. And, yes, I did not believe them either--mostly because that was company policy in those days, I am ashamed to say. If I had more love and less "twi-style believing", perhaps I would have had the balls to support them-who knows??
To all the folks on here who never saw it--get over it, you just didn't see it and most did not. Now that all is said and done, I have come to know of at least an easy half-dozen whom I knew PERSONALLY that were "used" to help "bless" the ole vicenstein...
Who you gonna hold responsible?? some barely legal-age woman-child or the 55-60 something, married, ordained, "PHD"-wielding, father AND self-proclaimed "Father-in-the WERD" man o' gawd o' the last 20 centuries.... SOME of u are as klueless as can be. some OBVIOUSLY wish to remain that way forever...and are to be pitied for their cold, unfeeling, hard-hearted wish and desire to "freeze" the past in some syrupy, glazed-over, self-induced WOW, RACA-style way-o'-vee-pee nirvana
WAKE UP, damn it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He and it wasn't ALL THAT--now get over it. You want to give someone the glory for what was godly, give it to God--and leave it there!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Orange Cat
Watered Garden - last year when the Catholic church was confronted by accusations of predatory behavior by some members of the priesthood and men were speaking up 10, 20, 30 years or more after they had been abused - did you ask the same question? Why didn't they speak up before?
It's a great question. You could probably do an internet serach and find a pyschology paper on why people who are victims remain silent - especially in a controlling group like twi. Silence doesn't mean, of course, that it didn't happen - there are probably dozens of factors that would make one keep silent.
Fear/knowing that no one would believe you.
Not wanting to have to take on the Grand Poo-bah when you're a lowly serf.
Being dragged through it all again and being the subject of a public scandal - imagine knowing what everyone was whispering about you.
To ask another question of you - how many times did you see people leave the Way ™ or get kicked out and you would hear things about them that slandered their reputations? It's embarassing to reflect how quickly we just cut people off without ever getting to hear their side of the story. But who wants to talk to anyone possessed by fiends?
Orange Cat color>
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
yes absolutely what they said
AND
if anyone should get glory for any good, it should be God, because he's good
but i'll bet there aren't too many goddamned religions and cults in the world that believe or practice this
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
First of all, I edited that line because I thought better of it, but I apologize because you saw it before I took it out.
If I said I knew the moon was made of Roquefort cheese, would you believe me? Of course not. If I said I knew someone who talked to an uncle of an astronaut who said it, would you believe me then?
No one has answered my question yet. And I did ask it in good faith, because this is something that has bothered me since the first time I read "Marsha's story". Why did he get away with it for so long?
Surely someone must have gone to the authorities, not in TWI, but real authorities?
And please don't accuse me of being cold and hard hearted. I'm not. But it would be much easier to believe if he'd been accused while alive. I have reasons for asking this question that I'm not ready to divulge and maybe never will be.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
alfakat
no disrespect intended--perhaps you better tend to those other, personal issues because I seriouly doubt that you will ever receive the answer you are loking for in the form you are looking for...
I pray that you find what you need...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
In otyher words,
SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP
Okay
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
dear watered garden, are you mad at me for some reason?
i didn't think to go to any authorities because in a very sick way i thought he was the authority
he started on me when i was 18; i was 11 last time i was sexually abused by a family member, which i told dear doctor all about
he told me i needed to be healed in a Godly way from such a horrible ordeal
**
side note, after he died, something in me was a little more free, in that i asked craig not to carry on in his shoes. craig was very very mean to me about that
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Radar OReilly
WG....I understand where you are coming from, you are not one of the normal "neanderthal" posters. This is a tough subject to understand, tough if you are one of the victims, and maybe tougher to understand if you aren't.
If your question is not answered by now....it probably won't ever be, you may already have made your mind up and aren't really interested in putting yourself in someone else's shoes.
Either way.....what is real to the victims is what is real. What is real to the spectators....who cares?
Radar
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WaywardWayfer
WG, I don't think anyone considers your question malicious or out of line in any way. No one is telling you to shut up. Many women did come forward and they were quickly hushed or escorted out of the organization. Some women committed suicide rather than deal with the pain and embarrassment of coming forward. Many people here have attempted to share with you what they know about why people didn't come forward:
- fear (of many things)
- belief that the behavior wasn't wrong
- belief that they wouldn't be believed (proven that they were right)
- no desire to face the accusations and name calling that would have happened
- the culture/societal norms of the time
- belief that they were the only one it had happened to
- etc.
I tend to think you have an answer you are expecting to hear and since you haven't heard it you think you haven't gotten the answer. OR because those are good enough reasons in your mind. OR it's a very personal and complex mind that reasons why to do and not to do some things.....none of us may truly know the answers to why someone does or doesn't do something.
Your response, IMHO, that no one has answered your question, seems a little harsh.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
alfakat
NO disrespect--please don't shut up!!! but PLEASE do not delude yourself into thinking that the answers you need will necessarily be found here...
it sounds like you have "issues" that are important and I just would not bank on them being resolved here...
DO not shut up...this place is about asking and finding out whether or not there is an answer to be found....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve!
I think that WG has a very valid question.
I don't think the answer would make much difference to many of the people that have set their opinions in stone, however.
Did any of the women go to worldy authorities? police? FBI? etc.
I for one find that the testimony of so many women is highly credible. There are too many witnesses corroborating each other for this to be a lie. I suppose those that still refuse to believe it probably still believe that the Holocaust didn't happen, because that was the official TWI line.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
ps. i told him many times i was not able to understand or handle this healing he had in mind
but one time, because i was such an idiot, he gave me a few drinks on the coach going from one campus to another and most of that is a blur or an out of body experience
i am so ashamed i could puke
i was never the same after that
i avoided him like the plague but really he had no interest any more (can't blame him, who wants to "do" a dead person?)
but even then i didn't say anything, my whole "self" was wrapped up in this thing called the way ministry
**
ps. your comments about being a peon made me feel bad. i was in the corps program which is where and how i became the ultimate peon
please don't think i or anyone "normal" still think this way
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Hope R.
WG - I think I answered your question in my earlier post. Did you read what happened to Marsha after she left TWI? EVERYONE who knew her was told she was chock-full-of-devil-spirits! We were told to stay away from her. One thing I forgot to add is that V.F. told me that if she contacted me again, I should call him immediately to tell him what she said.
"Why did he get away with it for so long?"
Most of the women I knew that were mistreated by VPW told me that they honestly believed that no one would believe them if they told about their experiences.
There were men who covered for him - like V.F. and many others. They protected him because they believed he was right in what he was doing - all those bible verses to back him up - he was the MOG. Plus, I'd guess that they wanted a piece of the action as well. As long as VP could justify himself - using the bible as his excuse, then they'd be justified if they did it too.
And there was fear! These women knew they'd be kicked out of TWI and branded possessed whores if they said anything. Add to that the fact no one would believe them and higher-ups covered for the MOG - it was a losing battle.
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
watered garden,
excathedra2000@yahoo.com
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.