Yes I was a part of TWI, and yes I was blessed by various people and events of TWI, such as big dos, teachings, music and classes. Yes, I thought there was a lot of good, and also a lot of bad. (Chiefly the rigid superiority of "good" and "best", and how that evolved into "everyone else is possessed") That sort of doctrine is psychologically abusive and that came from LCM in a very obvious way and VPW in a not so obvious way (but VPW approved of LCM)
I don't know what BG's ministry is like, it might be very boring, it might be very narrow minded, it might be good, it might be like reading a book and that is it, no ministry per se. It was disappointing to see good in TWI and then to see possessiveness, rigid superiority, etc. I didn't have to believe it, but how could I not?? I could have left the first minute I felt disappointed, but I didn't. I didn't believe everything TWI said, but I couldn't disbelieve it either.
dottie.... i agree with so much of where you are coming from.... you have always been my dear friend and example of truly loving god and fighting for truth (as we knew/know it)
i don't want to fight. i've never been good at it, as you know...
Say what you want, Dot, but I think Oldies has one heckuva open heart. He's far from blind. Try a little more honey and a little less acid (that goes for you too, Oldiesman).
Oldies, I would be interested in you addressing Excathedras post as well,...
How are YOU gonna justify that old snake...OR the ministry that he started and nurtured?
I think it is disgusting that you would blind yourself to his evil and who he worked for...and then slam the folks who actually witnessed the viscious selfserving perverts endulging in their callous disregard of peaple when it came to sating their lusts.
Dot, as far as your point of view being valid I agree.......all ANYBODY has to do to honestly know VPW`s true nature is to read in galations about the attributes of a man after the spirit verses a man after the flesh...this explains things explicitly, and leaves no room for doubt....
Oldies has you fooled rafe...imo you are pretty unfair....if you read back and see how oldies nastily trashed dot and her post first...
Well, I think oldies & dot are a bit out of line, but emotions can run high. I'm sure both will be down to earth in no time.
I can understand the *feeling that any benefit in the The Way was from God & Leonard because I felt that way after taking Leonard's class. But with a bit more perspective, I think that's an emotional response not based on fact.
I mean, from a spiritual perspective, all glory belongs to God only. Not to BG, and I think we can agree, not to Wierwille.
But I can state, just from a biblical perspective, that Wierwille was not a true minister in any sense of the word. He disqualified himself on pretty much every count. I think his behavior wholly invalidates everything he did and he deserves no credit at all. I say that in the same sense that Jim Jones' actions actions makes him, upon consideration, evil. Not a minister of the gospel. Yet Jones said/did plenty of good things or so many folks wouldn't have followed him. Yet, I fear no contradiction in calling him evil. Similarly, I fear no contradiction in calling Wierwille evil. I don't care how many people got healed, met the Lord, yada yada. By the definitions of the VERY Bible that Wierwille worshipped he was not a minister of the gospel.
If I see someone stab another with a knife and find out it was for no good reason (self defense) I am inclined to think the guy with the knife is bad.
I DO think VPW was the counterfeit.
Maybe I do not KNOW his heart but let's see:
He was a minister of a church and left because of an affair.
He wanted to start his own ministry so he plagiarized other people's work to start a ministry.
He taught the first few corps first hand that he had "needs to get met". Virtually almost all the ordained women in the ministry first had to service VPW. If they were honest and able to deal with what they have done, they would swing by and tell us. So, he ruined all those girls lives while feeding his depraved sexual appetites.
(One example, an 18 year old girl was in the corps it was the 2nd or 3rd, I think. VPW used to meet her at a special place. She was convinced she was special to him. She was young and easily led. One day, she went to their special place and there VPW was "sexually healing" another young corps girl. Both of these women are ordained. I got the story from the first girls' own mouth, when she tried to recruit me into the sex stuff!)
He assaulted EX. He invited me to the coach and was naked asking for "favors". When I refused he set out to ruin me.
He lied to the believers. I know of at least one meeting where we drove through horrid snow to get to this mandatory meeting. HE cancelled the last teaching and fellowship because he said he had important things God wanted him to attend to -- he was going to sexually "heal" a friend of mine.
The ministry paid for abortions when girls themselves in trouble with leadership. One corps girl had SEVEN abortions paid for by ministry money.
A HUGE respected leader in TWI told me VPW convinced a woman he could bless her and her daughter sexually. They went to him together.
VPW had us gathered around him one night and shared about how in Africa the father deflowers the daughter. Then, he said we should teach our children not to be afraid of our bodies and we could touch their nipples and show them how they hardened. Then, shared an example. Promoting incest.
Ask Ex she was at that meeting.
My 9th corps friend wrote her paper on adultry being wrong, to tackle the sex practices of TWI, and VPW told her NOT to do the paper. (Squelching research)
According to Marsha a corps girl and JAL VPW was known to drug women to get in their pants.
VPW lied about his credentials and published books that were almost verbatim from other authors.
He claimed to have a promise from God that is strickenly similar to Leonard's.
Goey's post:
quote: Leonard Wrote:
quote:
"One day God spoke to me. "If thou wilt wait patiently before me, I will give thee the revelation concerning that which is written in my Word touching these things; the revelation my people need to bring them out of their chaos and confusion."
Wierwille said in SNS #214
quote:
"...God revealed Himself to me and talked to me and told me as plain as day that, if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation,..."
Well, I think I can safely say IMO, he was a counterfeit, a bad man.
IF you cannot see it, then I do not know what to say except check your glasses and see if they have a rose tint.
I feel pretty safe even dropping the IMO and saying VPW was a bad person. No, I did not KNOW his heart, but it is safe to assume from his actions he was a louse. Let's not loose common sense here. Someone does all of these things, but he may have had a good heart...
Oh pleeeze. I have some swamp land in Florida you might be interested in.
If it walks like a duck or squawks like a duck it is probably a duck.
Or for those more Biblically minded:
Mathew 7: 15-20
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
This is not to say you are a bad person, I just strongly disagree with you. And strongly feel VPW was a fake.
I was answering his Halitosis remark. I am tired of honey. But generally am less caustic, have you read his posts to me? According to him I am a hateful liar.
But I will take what you said and try to understand his limited view point. I will remove one thing.
Evan
I am not trying to say BG is the way to go. I am saying if these people have Allegiance to VPW because of the PFAL class and material, then thier allegiance is to BG Leonard not VPW.
They just do not know it!
I do not think we should necessarily align ourselves with any man all-together.
The point is VP stole BG's class. "If" the class is what keeps people thinking VPW is a great guy, then think again.
Loved your remarks.
quote: But I can state, just from a biblical perspective, that Wierwille was not a true minister in any sense of the word. He disqualified himself on pretty much every count. I think his behavior wholly invalidates everything he did and he deserves no credit at all. I say that in the same sense that Jim Jones' actions actions makes him, upon consideration, evil. Not a minister of the gospel. Yet Jones said/did plenty of good things or so many folks wouldn't have followed him. Yet, I fear no contradiction in calling him evil. Similarly, I fear no contradiction in calling Wierwille evil. I don't care how many people got healed, met the Lord, yada yada. By the definitions of the VERY Bible that Wierwille worshipped he was not a minister of the gospel.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 09, 2003 at 19:07.]
Dot, I know you're a good heart. And I know Oldiesman is too. So I did direct my "honey v. acid" comment at both of you.
I wasn't trying to point fingers. Thanks for taking my comment as constructive, as it was intended to be. I refuse to believe you two can't resolve this, once you're both out of venom. :)-->
I appreciate your being a peacemaker. There is no resolve except to agree we disagree.
I think VPW was an evil guy doing evil things.
He thinks otherwise.
there is no common ground.
However, his first response to me was acrid as was his second and I have had it.
He may have a heck of a open heart when YOU speak. Have you heard him speak to Rascal? Or other victims? Not so open minded there Raf.
Maybe you can help him.
Through the years he has called Ex, me, Rascal and others liars. It takes a lot to expose all these horror stories, and to have this Nay-sayer follow you where ever you go is a bit much.
He comes across as a "nice Joe" but then hits hard on the defense of the ministry. He does not waffle on his loyality and does not "learn" from what others share. He merely calls us liars or evil.
I do see him as blind. Perhaps, you have seen progress. I have seen all sorts of people having the pieces of the puzzle finally fit for them. Except for Mike and Oldies. They are Weirwille patriots, and think when anyone shares the things that happened to them at the hands of VPW, that we are just drowning in "hate".
Weirwille did evil things and I therefore think he was evil. He sees that as hatred.
If he even had a modicum of compassion he would say, "I see why you folks are saying what you are saying if VPW did what he did. I am having difficulty believing it."
But through the years he has told women they "wanted it" when Weirwille assaulted them. He brings up the very weak argumemt "no body held a gun to your head." (Perhaps not an exact quotes but the gist) Which is like an off-shoot slogan, as they still adhere to many of VP's teachings.
I do not think Oldies is evil. I think he lives in La-La land. Like the Walgreens commercials about the town called "perfect".
I think his lack of ability to step into someone elses shoes, and his remarks in the past about girls going with VPW and having sex willingly, seem to excuse VPW - in his mind - of any responsibility. Therefore, his "good old Joe" innocent act is really insidious.
It underminds sharings from people like Ex who was assaulted, or attemps made by VPW toward me, or many other female posters who have spoken up through the years.
It takes the nightmare of TWI and puts it into an acceptable package, because his twig was sweet and the class brought him closer to God.
His Nay-saying makes posters who want to share, decide they do not want to be vulnerable to such disregard and dismissal.
You may see him as someone who is open. But really Raf, it has been three or more years, is he not saying the exact same things?
So how open is he?
If you see him as open to hearing you, I will pray that you can help him see, but I am not going to address him anymore unless he comes at me with acrid remarks.
And then my sweet Raf, whether you see it as me being the BAD guy or not, I will no longer be assaulted without response.
(It is a situation where we will not meet in the middle. I have "SEEN" and cannot go backwards. He will not see and cannot move forward.)
God Bless you Raf, you are a nice man. I hope someday he does "get it"
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 09, 2003 at 20:44.]
Perhaps the problem is what we think of as "evil." I used to think it was like in the movies -- shifty-eyed, grimacing, everything done with a snarl, never a kind word to anybody. Ebeneezer Scrooge meets Dracula, ya know?
But the face of evil is not like that. The truly evil person shows kindness regularly, especially when it costs him very little. He justifies his life to himself that way -- if he were only evil always, he could not stand to live with himself. He is cheerful and upbeat, confident, well-mannered and well-groomed, drawing people with his charisma. He fools others about what he really stands for, and more importantly, he fools himself. But keeping up this charade takes a lot of energy, so sooner or later, his selfish intents will emerge.
Those who he has so easily put on pedestals of admiration he just as easily demeans and discards. People, to him, are not to be loved, they are to be used, for admiration, and sex, and money, and power. He looks for people who are gentle, kind, forgiving, and nurturing, because they will overlook his evil the longest. (Exy, are ya listening?) On the fringes of his acquaintance are those whose reputations boost his -- in his inner circle are those from whom he can take what he wants.
So while the masses are lauding him to the skies for his wonderful deeds among them, he is privately writing them off as beneath him, as he is the Enlightened One. And he rides on the wave of his reputation to victimize the chosen few.
Do you see where Dot may have a point? I've seen some evolution in your thought on a lot of matters. I've seen an open mind and heart. You don't have to agree with her conclusions necessarily, but is she really all wrong, particularly about you? I'm not saying yes or no either way, but what do you think? If she's misinterpreting you, now's the chance to set the record straight. But if she's right... I leave the conclusion of that sentence to you.
Dot,
I didn't jump on Oldiesman because I knew others would. I apologize if it looked like I'm picking on you. Far be it from me to tell people to stop squabbling :)--> !
The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, PATIENCE, gentleness, goodness, meekness, self control, I left one out because I'm trying to remember off the top of my head. So Oldiesman, next time you feel the need to mention someone's halitosis, just ask yourself which fruit of the spirit you're trying to exhibit. (I wish I took my own advice more often, but hey, I never claimed to be perfect. Or to see an invisible snowstorm.)
Do you see where Dot may have a point? I've seen some evolution in your thought on a lot of matters. I've seen an open mind and heart. You don't have to agree with her conclusions necessarily, but is she really all wrong, particularly about you? I'm not saying yes or no either way, but what do you think? If she's misinterpreting you, now's the chance to set the record straight. But if she's right... I leave the conclusion of that sentence to you.
Raf I'll try to answer these things as best I can because you asked. I don't know if Dot Matrix is all wrong but I do notice deception and hate, definitely, especially where VPW is concerned. She can call me whatever she wants, I really don't care, but let's not distort the record.
quote:I think VPW was an evil guy doing evil things. He thinks otherwise.
I've said on more than one occasion that VP did evil works and good works, that he was a compilation of the two. Saying he was doing only evil is distorting the record. Promoting he did evil only distorts his life and this is probably why she thinks he was a child of the devil.
quote:He may have a heck of a open heart when YOU speak. Have you heard him speak to Rascal? Or other victims? Not so open minded there Raf.
Maybe you can help him.
This actually may be true. I have an open heart (or try to) when you speak because you have proven to be objective. You point out the good and the bad. I like that. Especially with the PFAL class. I really like that.
On the other hand, the "victims" seem to only look at one thing, the evil works of VP. That's the only thing that has any meaning for them, it seems, or at least that's how they come off. So be it, but I don't see that as being objective or representative of history and reality.
quote:Through the years he has called Ex, me, Rascal and others liars. It takes a lot to expose all these horror stories, and to have this Nay-sayer follow you where ever you go is a bit much.
This is another deception. I don't think I ever called anyone a liar, and if I ever did, I know I apologized later (people pointed out my error and I changed). On the other hand, I don't have to believe every story either, especially coming from people who tend to distort the record, fudge the facts, think VP is a Child of Satan, etc. I think some stories are colored with prejudice and hate against VPW, I know this because I've checked with other non-posting sources who say they were at the same meeting, or may have been privy to that experience, etc., who interpret the same experience as entirely different. But I still keep my mouth shut, generally, until the false accusations are so blatant (vp is a child of the devil) etc.
As far as following her whereever she goes, I don't know who she's talking about.
quote: He comes across as a "nice Joe" but then hits hard on the defense of the ministry. He does not waffle on his loyality and does not "learn" from what others share. He merely calls us liars or evil.
More deception. I do defend TWI-1 when I think its appropriate, but have complained about some things too, ABS/TITHING comes to mind. I try to "learn" from what others share but not to the point of discounting or denouncing what good I've experienced. And I've had a lot of negatives to say about TWI-2.
quote:...They are Weirwille patriots, and think when anyone shares the things that happened to them at the hands of VPW, that we are just drowning in "hate".
Partly true. I think I come off as a Wierwille patriot because I don't forget the good he's done. But I know he's done bad things and have acknowledged those also. I did say that Dot Matrix is being blinded by hatred of VPW, and I do believe that based upon her comments about him being a child of the devil.
quote:Weirwille did evil things and I therefore think he was evil. He sees that as hatred.
It is hatred when you think ONLY evil about VPW, which Dot Matrix demonstrates. What about all the good he's done? She's been around long enough to know what good he's done. Oh well, it doesn't matter. Adolph Hitler did some good things too right? yada yada yada...
quote:If he even had a modicum of compassion he would say, "I see why you folks are saying what you are saying if VPW did what he did. I am having difficulty believing it." But through the years he has told women they "wanted it" when Weirwille assaulted them. He brings up the very weak argumemt "no body held a gun to your head." (Perhaps not an exact quotes but the gist) Which is like an off-shoot slogan, as they still adhere to many of VP's teachings.
I have no difficulty believing he committed evil works like adultery and plagiarism. However, allegations of drugging and rape I do have my doubts about. (Maybe I would feel different if I actually spoke face to face with the women who allegedly experienced this.)
I've pointed out that women could have just said "no" to VP (like Dot Matrix did!) and they wouldn't have been "abused". I've also pointed out that its possible that these women who had sex with VP actually may have wanted to. They wanted to "bless the man of God". Those are their words.
Wow, Isn't amazing to see what you miss when you're off line a couple days?
A few thoughts...
I've been under the impression the last few years that VPW's claim to have heard God speak to him about teaching the word like it's not been known since the first century, etc. was, in fact, part of a prochecy that was spoken over him at the graduation of Bro. Leonard's "the Gifts of the Spirit" class. Why? Bro. Leonard practised laying hands on graduates and prophesying over them at the conclusion of his classes. In many instances, a "gift" ministry was pronounced over the individual. In addition, having heard many prophecies brought forth over people these past few years, the wording or phraseology sounds much like a personal prophecy.
With regards to Bro. Leonard's quote aboute God speaking to him and saying that He would give the revelation regarding these things (gifts of the Spirit) to bring His people out of Chaos, etc. Brother Leonard was speaking (conversing) to Charles Sydney Price at the time. In other words, Bro. Leonard recognised God speaking to him through Charles S. Price. Those of you reading this who have heard the voice of God speaking to you through another person will recognize this as a viable method employed by God to communicate to us. It's simply unmistakeable. Brother Leonard didn't claim that God spoke to him audibly, as VPW did.
There seems to be many threads waiting to happen here. Would we all agree that the plagiarism issue has been settled at least? I, for one, vote yes.
BTW, I was able to refuse VPW because I do not drink and did not join him. He did not have the opportunity to slip something in the drink. But the set up was there- is that the kinda minister you really want to defend?
I may go back a wade through a ton of your nay-saying to prove a point.
But for the record, I have gotten plenty of e-mails that see you the way I do.
Lost perhaps, deceived- most definitely. Always against the victims- that was unanimous.
Like I said it might not be verbatim but the gist of your insults have been that sex with VPW it was consensual. And this point is usually brought up after a woman shares an experience with VPW. Which SHOOTS THE VICTIM.
Someone, could have been me, pointed out to you that even if it was consensual it was WRONG and not in line with the actions becoming a minister of God's word. The point was lost on you.
To show you that VPW was even drugging girls to have sex with them, I gave you a reference where Marsha and JAL say it.
When I pointed you toward Marsha's letter on Juedes site, you disregarded the letter and instead told me that "my God was Juedes".
Again, the point was lost on you.
You talk about deception? You are a master at a low sweet talking guy who takes the point and swings it to an insult.
I do believe VPW is a fake, I think his own resume of actions surely show he was not working FOR God. That is my opinion. I do think his intent was to whisk us away to spiritual impotence. When I shared my thoughts.
You make it personal:
quote: Good Lord. I think if the Devil Himself were writing this, He couldn't put his thoughts any more bold and blatant.
I profoundly disagree with these words and do not relate or acknowledge these words or experiences in any way in my time in TWI-1. They are lies, lies from the fiery pit of hell. Railing bold words of evil designed to falsely accuse one of God's children from someone who apparently thinks they are the Searcher of Hearts.
WOW, what boldness!
It demonstrates how hatred of a person, in this case VPW, blinds and distorts anything and everything VPW ever did.
You say I am bold with lies, insinuate I am working for the devil, say I blind and distort things and have hatred.
You take the focus off of the things VPW did, which are part of history now babe, there has been more than a few people who have stepped up to the plate to expose the truth. And you turn it towards ME. "No VPW is not a deceiver! It is Dot!" (Even after we expose his lies, his stealing other authors works, have had women tell of the sexual abuse - you take the focus from exposing a false prophet. Mmmmmmm?
Even a big VPW fan would surely pause to see if maybe they need to rethink the pedestal they placed VPW on. Anyone really wanting to be free of this cult and get on with worshiping God, would at least ponder such things.)
But you do not miss a beat; you turn it around and make it MY problem. Why how "TWI" of you!
But you will be happy to know that it is in keeping with your "Father in the Word". Because I confronted him about the sex stuff and he then made it my problem. His response?
"What so ever things are pure think on these things" So, his SEXUAL abuse and practices were NOT wrong, it was HOW I LOOKED AT IT. Sounds like you Oldies, VP would be proud.
If you look at other posters and other testimony you will hear repeatedly VPW was not the man you think he was. Shaz has a brilliant post! Raf puts the comparisons between the books of Leonard and Weirwille, Goey posts the ?promise? to both men.
But you choose to ignore those things. Instead you look for the most vulnerable or weakest link on the thread. Which on this one is me because I was SO directly affected by VPW?s practices and you start to pick. This will change the focus of the BRILLANT posts and truth and instead place it on me. You are really a professional at this? Are you still on staff? You could have said, "I have a problem with which seems to be a conclusion on your part. I have had so many good things happen to me in TWI-1 I feel like I need to sefend VPW." Then, defend him, do not attack me. But you cannot defend him can you?
In the Soul Stealing thread as soon as Sunesis posts a very personal account of what VPW did to her:
?When I realized years ago that VPW had a woman in every port and the sex was much more prevalent than could really be imagined, that VP had been abusing TWIers as far back as when he first visited us "Groovy Christians" in Rye, New York where he had relations with at least one in particular 16 year old that I know of, it makes me sick.
?.When VPW came on to me graphically and lewdly, he told me a "secret" as to why he had sex with the girls and not his wife. I had to keep it lockbox and not tell a soul. Later, I heard he told this same "secret" to other girls. Also, those of you who never knew anything was going on, well, VPW was very careful who he picked - the vulnerable, those who wouldn't tell. Read the article. How these pastors almost have "psychic" ability, is how one parishioner put it, as to whom to pick.
And women did speak up. I know a woman in the first family corps who was very angry when VP came on to her and had been doing it to others. She was immediately thrown out and her name slandered, even in our town where she was from. She had "tripped out and was possessed." The standard line they gave. Any woman who spoke up was out - quick.
The rest, some even proud to be part of VPW's "secret club" never discussed it with the "uninitiated" or those not "spiritually mature" enough to handle it.
VPW was a predator, pure and simple.?
You turn things around in the next thread starting slowly:
You say:
One of the major premises of the soul-stealing article seems to be the following:
quote:
As with rape, a pastor's sexual or romantic involvement with a parishioner is not primarily a matter of sex or sexuality but of power and control.
?Says who? Would it be at least a possibility that the pastor is having sexual relations because he's horny?
I don't doubt there are some cases like this, but I'd like to see the definitive proof that every sexual relation of a pastor/parishioner is about power and control.
What about the woman? what if she willingly wants it??
Radar and Ala then try to talk to you and Ala can not believe you posted that!
So now the focus is OFF what Sunesis just shared and the issue becomes he was ?horny? and maybe they wanted it.
YOU DID NOT GET IT THEN AND YOU DO NOT NOW!
Then you prattle on about how it is not control?. Blaa blaaa
The posters try to reason with you. Lindy and Radar make great points.
Blaa Blaaa
You say ?People are responsible for their actions.?
This is while folks are trying to unfold to you what happened to them. You minimize the hugeness of VPW?s crap and make it the responsibility of the ?believer?
Again, missing the point and changing the focus to protect VPW.
Then, ANOTHER testimony from Alfacat who KNOWS of the abuse and he gives you a wake up call?
It goes on and on and on.
Then, someone asks WHY they did not report this stuff. The victims explain the fear on and on?
You say, now showing the strength of your ability to change focus and NOW we have you placing it back on the victim:
You quote someone:
When I asked why no one said anything there were two answers that stood out in my mind:
1. No one would believe them.
2. They believed they were "doing the Word" according to the MOG.
AND YOU (OLDIES) SAY:
Another possible reason why some women never said anything:
3. They knew they had sinned by voluntarily committing adultery with VPW, and they kept their sin with VPW in the lockbox. They confessed their sin to God, asked for his forgiveness, and the matter for all intents and purposes, was forgiven and forgotten
GEEZ Oldies?. You did not, you do not and you do not WANT TO GET IT.
So, even if it was not a forced or evil seduction in your mind, VPW was NOT THE MAN YOU THOUGHT HE WAS! Okay, being as you like to minimize people?s accounts lets say VPW did not drug people, seduce or assault. Let?s just say he poked everything he could?. Somehow by tying him up into that kind of package you become able to handle your deception. ?It wasn?t REALLY rape. It wasn?t bad as the girls wanted it, he was just a horny guy.? So, you take peoples experiences, MANY people?s experiences, minimize them to an acceptable level FOR you, so that you do not have to change. You have had more than TWO witnesses tell you the truth, you choose to be ignorant.
LET IT GO.
YOU WERE DECEIVED.
A TON of believers told you. There has been many witnesses to this fact but you REFUSE to see.
You want to accuse me of lies and deceit, you need to get a mirror pal.
Just because you choose to remain ignorant does not mean I or anyone else is going to tolerate your bu?sh-t.
You see for someone like you to dislike me is an honor because it means I am the antithisis of VPW - who you refuse to knock off the throne you constructed.
By the way, in your most recent attacks of me, you are not reading things in context, didn't VPW teach you better than that?
But again, now the thread is about "Oldies" much like things become about "Mike" whenever someone tried to share a truthful more informed view on the pratices of VPW.
IMO, Oldies you are one brain cell away from being Mike. Just your brand of diversion is more insidious then his. You are never REALLY nailed down, never really open to others, you strke and then crawl back under your "nice guy" sign hoping the few friends you have made here do not have a clear picture of what you promote.
Oldies, go back under your sign. Most have seen the real you by now. You can ignore me and I will you. Your acrid and shallow observations were just to derail anyone from seeing VPW's true agenda "steal, kill and destroy" IMO.
Again, Shaz has a beautiful post on what evil looks like. Because you saw a few smiles, handshakes and had a few indirect strokes does not mean VPW was not evil to people. IT is the face that evil wears. If you had a "nice twig" thank GOD and your twig leaders. They protected you from the masked man.
Good bye Oldies. I am wiping the dust off my feet. You have been helped endlessly. You do not want to know.
What do you want? You want me to say VPW was a good guy that went bad. The record reports things differently, unless maybe you go back to when he was 20 or something. But from the point he started poking people, which was EARLY on, he has hurt people. He did it with a smile, which apparently makes everything okay in your book.
So, you think I can only see evil BECAUSE of the sex. Sex apparently is not a big deal to you, whether it is executed according to scripture (marriage) or not.
So, let's look at the OTHER things. The stolen promise. The stolen books, the stolen class...
When I first brought the stolen class up to you year(s) ago, you said "No one can steal the Bible it is there for everyone" (gist). I did not say THE BIBLE I said the class.
So, it is not that ALL I see is jaded by the sexual practices. I see other things. A litney of things that when added up prove to be a long story of bad things. I bet Plots as a minister would be tossed out if he ahd a list like this! As would any minister.
So, I am not jaded by his sexual crap. You are jaded by deceit and your inability to yield to evidence "the church" has brought to you.
I will continue to express my opinions. I am sure you will continue to defend VPW and shut out the testimony of victims.
Do not take it so personally when I express my feelings about VPW. They are mine and I am allowed to have them. You strike out as if I blackened your eye. That kind of alliegence may need to be re-examined by you.
It is best that we avoid each other.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 10, 2003 at 10:54.]
quote: I think his lack of ability to step into someone elses shoes, and his remarks in the past about girls going with VPW and having sex willingly, seem to excuse VPW - in his mind - of any responsibility. Therefore, his "good old Joe" innocent act is really insidious.
I never excused VP of his evil acts, so this is more deception. Even if the girls willingly had sex, it's still at least adultery where VPW was concerned. I've said that repeatedly.
quote:His Nay-saying makes posters who want to share, decide they do not want to be vulnerable to such disregard and dismissal.
That may be true, but if I have a difficult time believing something and ask questions about it, what's wrong with challenging? If posters don't want to be scrutinized, they shouldn't post. But the reverse is also true, and even more so. Anyone who is pro-twi or pro-VPW gets challenged repeatedly.
Asking challenging questions is one thing Oldies......openly accusing folks of being liars or filled with hate or working for satan simply BECAUSE you are unwilling to consider their account or point of view is harmfull and wrong.
To justify these actions as simply as *challenges* is just one more way of decieving yourself into thinking that your behavior isn`t harmfull...imo
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CircleGame
Hi Oldies,
Yes I was a part of TWI, and yes I was blessed by various people and events of TWI, such as big dos, teachings, music and classes. Yes, I thought there was a lot of good, and also a lot of bad. (Chiefly the rigid superiority of "good" and "best", and how that evolved into "everyone else is possessed") That sort of doctrine is psychologically abusive and that came from LCM in a very obvious way and VPW in a not so obvious way (but VPW approved of LCM)
I don't know what BG's ministry is like, it might be very boring, it might be very narrow minded, it might be good, it might be like reading a book and that is it, no ministry per se. It was disappointing to see good in TWI and then to see possessiveness, rigid superiority, etc. I didn't have to believe it, but how could I not?? I could have left the first minute I felt disappointed, but I didn't. I didn't believe everything TWI said, but I couldn't disbelieve it either.
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excathedra
dottie.... i agree with so much of where you are coming from.... you have always been my dear friend and example of truly loving god and fighting for truth (as we knew/know it)
i don't want to fight. i've never been good at it, as you know...
i don't know anymore if i give a flying fruck
?
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Dot Matrix
Oldiesman
They will not be able to smell my "Halitosis" (your word)
Because your head smells like VP's a$$
You are a blind fool.
Ohhhh I am evil.
Boo!
Don't get so close it might rub off!
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 09, 2003 at 18:52.]
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Raf
Wow.
Say what you want, Dot, but I think Oldies has one heckuva open heart. He's far from blind. Try a little more honey and a little less acid (that goes for you too, Oldiesman).
Please?
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rascal
Oldies, I would be interested in you addressing Excathedras post as well,...
How are YOU gonna justify that old snake...OR the ministry that he started and nurtured?
I think it is disgusting that you would blind yourself to his evil and who he worked for...and then slam the folks who actually witnessed the viscious selfserving perverts endulging in their callous disregard of peaple when it came to sating their lusts.
Dot, as far as your point of view being valid I agree.......all ANYBODY has to do to honestly know VPW`s true nature is to read in galations about the attributes of a man after the spirit verses a man after the flesh...this explains things explicitly, and leaves no room for doubt....
Oldies has you fooled rafe...imo you are pretty unfair....if you read back and see how oldies nastily trashed dot and her post first...
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vickles
so oldies, are you calling us ones that seen evil liars? Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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TheEvan
Well, I think oldies & dot are a bit out of line, but emotions can run high. I'm sure both will be down to earth in no time.
I can understand the *feeling that any benefit in the The Way was from God & Leonard because I felt that way after taking Leonard's class. But with a bit more perspective, I think that's an emotional response not based on fact.
I mean, from a spiritual perspective, all glory belongs to God only. Not to BG, and I think we can agree, not to Wierwille.
But I can state, just from a biblical perspective, that Wierwille was not a true minister in any sense of the word. He disqualified himself on pretty much every count. I think his behavior wholly invalidates everything he did and he deserves no credit at all. I say that in the same sense that Jim Jones' actions actions makes him, upon consideration, evil. Not a minister of the gospel. Yet Jones said/did plenty of good things or so many folks wouldn't have followed him. Yet, I fear no contradiction in calling him evil. Similarly, I fear no contradiction in calling Wierwille evil. I don't care how many people got healed, met the Lord, yada yada. By the definitions of the VERY Bible that Wierwille worshipped he was not a minister of the gospel.
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Dot Matrix
Linda
Maybe I do not know VPW's heart...
If I see someone stab another with a knife and find out it was for no good reason (self defense) I am inclined to think the guy with the knife is bad.
I DO think VPW was the counterfeit.
Maybe I do not KNOW his heart but let's see:
He was a minister of a church and left because of an affair.
He wanted to start his own ministry so he plagiarized other people's work to start a ministry.
He taught the first few corps first hand that he had "needs to get met". Virtually almost all the ordained women in the ministry first had to service VPW. If they were honest and able to deal with what they have done, they would swing by and tell us. So, he ruined all those girls lives while feeding his depraved sexual appetites.
(One example, an 18 year old girl was in the corps it was the 2nd or 3rd, I think. VPW used to meet her at a special place. She was convinced she was special to him. She was young and easily led. One day, she went to their special place and there VPW was "sexually healing" another young corps girl. Both of these women are ordained. I got the story from the first girls' own mouth, when she tried to recruit me into the sex stuff!)
He assaulted EX. He invited me to the coach and was naked asking for "favors". When I refused he set out to ruin me.
He lied to the believers. I know of at least one meeting where we drove through horrid snow to get to this mandatory meeting. HE cancelled the last teaching and fellowship because he said he had important things God wanted him to attend to -- he was going to sexually "heal" a friend of mine.
The ministry paid for abortions when girls themselves in trouble with leadership. One corps girl had SEVEN abortions paid for by ministry money.
A HUGE respected leader in TWI told me VPW convinced a woman he could bless her and her daughter sexually. They went to him together.
VPW had us gathered around him one night and shared about how in Africa the father deflowers the daughter. Then, he said we should teach our children not to be afraid of our bodies and we could touch their nipples and show them how they hardened. Then, shared an example. Promoting incest.
Ask Ex she was at that meeting.
My 9th corps friend wrote her paper on adultry being wrong, to tackle the sex practices of TWI, and VPW told her NOT to do the paper. (Squelching research)
According to Marsha a corps girl and JAL VPW was known to drug women to get in their pants.
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm
VPW lied about his credentials and published books that were almost verbatim from other authors.
He claimed to have a promise from God that is strickenly similar to Leonard's.
Goey's post:
Well, I think I can safely say IMO, he was a counterfeit, a bad man.
IF you cannot see it, then I do not know what to say except check your glasses and see if they have a rose tint.
I feel pretty safe even dropping the IMO and saying VPW was a bad person. No, I did not KNOW his heart, but it is safe to assume from his actions he was a louse. Let's not loose common sense here. Someone does all of these things, but he may have had a good heart...
Oh pleeeze. I have some swamp land in Florida you might be interested in.
If it walks like a duck or squawks like a duck it is probably a duck.
Or for those more Biblically minded:
Mathew 7: 15-20
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
This is not to say you are a bad person, I just strongly disagree with you. And strongly feel VPW was a fake.
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Dot Matrix
Raf
I was answering his Halitosis remark. I am tired of honey. But generally am less caustic, have you read his posts to me? According to him I am a hateful liar.
But I will take what you said and try to understand his limited view point. I will remove one thing.
Evan
I am not trying to say BG is the way to go. I am saying if these people have Allegiance to VPW because of the PFAL class and material, then thier allegiance is to BG Leonard not VPW.
They just do not know it!
I do not think we should necessarily align ourselves with any man all-together.
The point is VP stole BG's class. "If" the class is what keeps people thinking VPW is a great guy, then think again.
Loved your remarks.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 09, 2003 at 19:07.]
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excathedra
scanning scanning
;)--> 
;)-->
dot has not said one word of a lie ......
meetings.....
abortions.....
girls....
hey if you have two witnesses, does that help ?
?
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Dot Matrix
Thanks Ex!!! It is the truth! What a resume VPW has. A resume to sit second chair in
he ll. There has been countless people that have spoken up and I thank you.
But Oldies would rather call me evil and speaking for the devil then HEAR anything about VP. SOBEIT!
Thanks Vickles!
Thanks Rascal, glad you saw the way Oldies has been speaking to me, before I let him have it!
Fair is fair.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 09, 2003 at 19:17.]
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Raf
Dot, I know you're a good heart. And I know Oldiesman is too. So I did direct my "honey v. acid" comment at both of you.
I wasn't trying to point fingers. Thanks for taking my comment as constructive, as it was intended to be. I refuse to believe you two can't resolve this, once you're both out of venom.
:)-->
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Dot Matrix
Raf
Gosh, where were you when he was trashing me?
I appreciate your being a peacemaker. There is no resolve except to agree we disagree.
I think VPW was an evil guy doing evil things.
He thinks otherwise.
there is no common ground.
However, his first response to me was acrid as was his second and I have had it.
He may have a heck of a open heart when YOU speak. Have you heard him speak to Rascal? Or other victims? Not so open minded there Raf.
Maybe you can help him.
Through the years he has called Ex, me, Rascal and others liars. It takes a lot to expose all these horror stories, and to have this Nay-sayer follow you where ever you go is a bit much.
He comes across as a "nice Joe" but then hits hard on the defense of the ministry. He does not waffle on his loyality and does not "learn" from what others share. He merely calls us liars or evil.
I do see him as blind. Perhaps, you have seen progress. I have seen all sorts of people having the pieces of the puzzle finally fit for them. Except for Mike and Oldies. They are Weirwille patriots, and think when anyone shares the things that happened to them at the hands of VPW, that we are just drowning in "hate".
Weirwille did evil things and I therefore think he was evil. He sees that as hatred.
If he even had a modicum of compassion he would say, "I see why you folks are saying what you are saying if VPW did what he did. I am having difficulty believing it."
But through the years he has told women they "wanted it" when Weirwille assaulted them. He brings up the very weak argumemt "no body held a gun to your head." (Perhaps not an exact quotes but the gist) Which is like an off-shoot slogan, as they still adhere to many of VP's teachings.
I do not think Oldies is evil. I think he lives in La-La land. Like the Walgreens commercials about the town called "perfect".
I think his lack of ability to step into someone elses shoes, and his remarks in the past about girls going with VPW and having sex willingly, seem to excuse VPW - in his mind - of any responsibility. Therefore, his "good old Joe" innocent act is really insidious.
It underminds sharings from people like Ex who was assaulted, or attemps made by VPW toward me, or many other female posters who have spoken up through the years.
It takes the nightmare of TWI and puts it into an acceptable package, because his twig was sweet and the class brought him closer to God.
His Nay-saying makes posters who want to share, decide they do not want to be vulnerable to such disregard and dismissal.
You may see him as someone who is open. But really Raf, it has been three or more years, is he not saying the exact same things?
So how open is he?
If you see him as open to hearing you, I will pray that you can help him see, but I am not going to address him anymore unless he comes at me with acrid remarks.
And then my sweet Raf, whether you see it as me being the BAD guy or not, I will no longer be assaulted without response.
(It is a situation where we will not meet in the middle. I have "SEEN" and cannot go backwards. He will not see and cannot move forward.)
God Bless you Raf, you are a nice man. I hope someday he does "get it"
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 09, 2003 at 20:44.]
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shazdancer
Exy, Dot, Oldies, et al,
Perhaps the problem is what we think of as "evil." I used to think it was like in the movies -- shifty-eyed, grimacing, everything done with a snarl, never a kind word to anybody. Ebeneezer Scrooge meets Dracula, ya know?
But the face of evil is not like that. The truly evil person shows kindness regularly, especially when it costs him very little. He justifies his life to himself that way -- if he were only evil always, he could not stand to live with himself. He is cheerful and upbeat, confident, well-mannered and well-groomed, drawing people with his charisma. He fools others about what he really stands for, and more importantly, he fools himself. But keeping up this charade takes a lot of energy, so sooner or later, his selfish intents will emerge.
Those who he has so easily put on pedestals of admiration he just as easily demeans and discards. People, to him, are not to be loved, they are to be used, for admiration, and sex, and money, and power. He looks for people who are gentle, kind, forgiving, and nurturing, because they will overlook his evil the longest. (Exy, are ya listening?) On the fringes of his acquaintance are those whose reputations boost his -- in his inner circle are those from whom he can take what he wants.
So while the masses are lauding him to the skies for his wonderful deeds among them, he is privately writing them off as beneath him, as he is the Enlightened One. And he rides on the wave of his reputation to victimize the chosen few.
Regards,
Shaz
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Raf
Oldiesman,
Do you see where Dot may have a point? I've seen some evolution in your thought on a lot of matters. I've seen an open mind and heart. You don't have to agree with her conclusions necessarily, but is she really all wrong, particularly about you? I'm not saying yes or no either way, but what do you think? If she's misinterpreting you, now's the chance to set the record straight. But if she's right... I leave the conclusion of that sentence to you.
Dot,
I didn't jump on Oldiesman because I knew others would. I apologize if it looked like I'm picking on you. Far be it from me to tell people to stop squabbling
:)--> !
The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, PATIENCE, gentleness, goodness, meekness, self control, I left one out because I'm trying to remember off the top of my head. So Oldiesman, next time you feel the need to mention someone's halitosis, just ask yourself which fruit of the spirit you're trying to exhibit. (I wish I took my own advice more often, but hey, I never claimed to be perfect. Or to see an invisible snowstorm.)
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WordWolf
AHA!
I "KNEW" It!
The issues I had with vpw's definitions WERE due to him ripping off BG Leonard!
Rafael, since this scattered over several pages, please cut and paste this
in one coherent thread when you get a chance. (Pretty please.)
========================================
vpw's definition of word of knowledge:
"The manifestation of word of knowledge is your operation of the God-given
ability whereby you may receive from God
by His revealing unto you,
certain truths or facts about which it is impossible for you to know by the
five senses."
cg's definition of word of knowledge:
"The manifestation of word of knowledge is your operation of the God-given
ability whereby you may receive from God
by His revealing unto you,
certain truths or facts unknown to you by the five senses."
(Definition circa 1989.)
cg's defintion of word of knowledge:
"The manifestation of word of knowledge is your operation of the God-given
ability whereby you receive from God
by His revealing unto you,
certain truths or facts unknown to you by the five senses."
(Definition circa 1991.)
===========================
If anyone's got anyone else's definition,or another iteration of the ones we
mentioned, please add it-like the wap one.
Ok, here's what I had a bee in my bonnet about....
When I was preparing for the Advanced class, I studied the vpw definition.
I had an issue with the phraseology.
After all, the point of a defintion is supposed to be an accurate and coherent
explanation.
I said this is NOT what it was.
"About which it is impossible for you to know by the five senses?"
Why does it have to be impossible?
Elisha's in Dothan. A messenger gets sent to him. Someone tells him a messenger
was sent to him. He doesn't move. He says the guy's boss is hot on his tail.
Now, a lookout could have told him this-or a good look from his roof. That was
not "impossible", just impractical.
Ananias and Sapphira sell a house and give "all" (some) of the money for the
church, announcing they gave it all. Someone could easily have checked the
legal documents certifying the sale and shown the discrepancy between the amount
sold and the amount given. That's not "impossible", that's bookkeeping.
So, I said, why this compulsion to say it was "impossible"? Why constrain God
so? If something COULD have been known but wasn't, does God say "well, you
should have sent an investigator" and refuse to tell you something? Of course
not! God is not required to limit Himself in this fashion, nor is He demonstrated
to have done so at any time! So, I found that faulty.
When I arrived, cg had already seen the same point I did, and had made a change
to reflect that, which was already in print. (Good-I hate it when I can see
things as a new student better than the instructor-that's a bad sign.)
So, the problem I had was that vpw took Leonard's definition, changed the word
"gift" to "manifestation" (which I think is an improvement), added his stock
preface (which is of debatable value, since it is technically true, but
needlessly cumbersome), then made a few cosmetic changes to make his use of
Leonard's definition less obvious. In short, he did not "make the subject
his own." If he HAD done his own research from there, using Leonard as a
STARTING POINT ONLY, he would have had no difficulty making the same connection
I did when I FIRST saw the definitions. He literally took the definitions and
just made cosmetic changes, leaving their core the same.
Contrasting that with what cg did...
First of all, he made no pretensions he wasn't working from someone else's
definition, so he didn't need to make cosmetic changes.
Second of all, it's obvious he (or someone else-I'm figuring it was him)
sat down and examined the subjects, seeking to understand them. It was in
understanding their points he saw the need to make a change to correct the
definition, and so he did. Therefore, he didn't limit God in his definition.
I considered that change a definite improvement, without hearing a single word
from him on when or why it was made.
My opinion wasn't universal-I'd gotten into multiple debates back then as to
whether or not the previous definition was improved by the change or was
perfect in the form vpw gave it. (I think you can see what was the reason
others disagreed with me-it was "how dare you question vpw on anything" stuff.)
Now, cg went a step further and deleted a word in his next iteration, as you
can see. He deleted the word "may".
Another student explained this to me, and shared the reason he was given for
this change. He said he was told this was because the manifestations are not
a "maybe" thing-you don't "maybe" manifest. The student passed this along, and
made it clear, without discussion (we only had a moment) that he did not think
this was an improvement. Upon later reflection (first chance I had to mull it
over), I did not consider this an improvement. As I see it (and saw it then),
the manifestation is the ability to instantly commune with God Almighty,
and interface with Him. That ALWAYS works. You do NOT always get an answer,
and you do NOT always get an answer that directly responds to your question.
To suggest otherwise is to say that "word of knowledge" FORCES or REQUIRES God
to respond a certain way. He can respond any way He wants, and He can choose
NOT to respond. (I have experience with both.)
I'd already seen illustrations of this from other Christians long before I
considered the issue. They illustrated it with a cookie jar. Your operation of
"word of knowledge" is like reaching into Daddy's cookie jar. "Sometimes
they'res a cookie in it, sometimes there isn't."
(I'm sure LOTS of people know this example.)
Anyway, it seems VERY obvious to me that vpw "appropriated" (plagiarized)
BG Leonard's work on the subject.
Now, if I ever take Leonard's class, I've a conversation about impossibility
I'll want to have with the instructor/proctor/leader/semprini.
Oh, and Rafael,
feel free to quote me on any of this as needed.
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oldiesman
Raf I'll try to answer these things as best I can because you asked. I don't know if Dot Matrix is all wrong but I do notice deception and hate, definitely, especially where VPW is concerned. She can call me whatever she wants, I really don't care, but let's not distort the record.
I've said on more than one occasion that VP did evil works and good works, that he was a compilation of the two. Saying he was doing only evil is distorting the record. Promoting he did evil only distorts his life and this is probably why she thinks he was a child of the devil.
This actually may be true. I have an open heart (or try to) when you speak because you have proven to be objective. You point out the good and the bad. I like that. Especially with the PFAL class. I really like that.
On the other hand, the "victims" seem to only look at one thing, the evil works of VP. That's the only thing that has any meaning for them, it seems, or at least that's how they come off. So be it, but I don't see that as being objective or representative of history and reality.
This is another deception. I don't think I ever called anyone a liar, and if I ever did, I know I apologized later (people pointed out my error and I changed). On the other hand, I don't have to believe every story either, especially coming from people who tend to distort the record, fudge the facts, think VP is a Child of Satan, etc. I think some stories are colored with prejudice and hate against VPW, I know this because I've checked with other non-posting sources who say they were at the same meeting, or may have been privy to that experience, etc., who interpret the same experience as entirely different. But I still keep my mouth shut, generally, until the false accusations are so blatant (vp is a child of the devil) etc.
As far as following her whereever she goes, I don't know who she's talking about.
More deception. I do defend TWI-1 when I think its appropriate, but have complained about some things too, ABS/TITHING comes to mind. I try to "learn" from what others share but not to the point of discounting or denouncing what good I've experienced. And I've had a lot of negatives to say about TWI-2.
Partly true. I think I come off as a Wierwille patriot because I don't forget the good he's done. But I know he's done bad things and have acknowledged those also. I did say that Dot Matrix is being blinded by hatred of VPW, and I do believe that based upon her comments about him being a child of the devil.
It is hatred when you think ONLY evil about VPW, which Dot Matrix demonstrates. What about all the good he's done? She's been around long enough to know what good he's done. Oh well, it doesn't matter. Adolph Hitler did some good things too right? yada yada yada...
I have no difficulty believing he committed evil works like adultery and plagiarism. However, allegations of drugging and rape I do have my doubts about. (Maybe I would feel different if I actually spoke face to face with the women who allegedly experienced this.)
I've pointed out that women could have just said "no" to VP (like Dot Matrix did!) and they wouldn't have been "abused". I've also pointed out that its possible that these women who had sex with VP actually may have wanted to. They wanted to "bless the man of God". Those are their words.
I HAVE TO GET TO WORK NOW...MORE LATER....
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Greek2me
Wow, Isn't amazing to see what you miss when you're off line a couple days?
A few thoughts...
I've been under the impression the last few years that VPW's claim to have heard God speak to him about teaching the word like it's not been known since the first century, etc. was, in fact, part of a prochecy that was spoken over him at the graduation of Bro. Leonard's "the Gifts of the Spirit" class. Why? Bro. Leonard practised laying hands on graduates and prophesying over them at the conclusion of his classes. In many instances, a "gift" ministry was pronounced over the individual. In addition, having heard many prophecies brought forth over people these past few years, the wording or phraseology sounds much like a personal prophecy.
With regards to Bro. Leonard's quote aboute God speaking to him and saying that He would give the revelation regarding these things (gifts of the Spirit) to bring His people out of Chaos, etc. Brother Leonard was speaking (conversing) to Charles Sydney Price at the time. In other words, Bro. Leonard recognised God speaking to him through Charles S. Price. Those of you reading this who have heard the voice of God speaking to you through another person will recognize this as a viable method employed by God to communicate to us. It's simply unmistakeable. Brother Leonard didn't claim that God spoke to him audibly, as VPW did.
There seems to be many threads waiting to happen here. Would we all agree that the plagiarism issue has been settled at least? I, for one, vote yes.
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Dot Matrix
Sahz
You made very good points.
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Dot Matrix
Ya know Oldies,
BTW, I was able to refuse VPW because I do not drink and did not join him. He did not have the opportunity to slip something in the drink. But the set up was there- is that the kinda minister you really want to defend?
I may go back a wade through a ton of your nay-saying to prove a point.
But for the record, I have gotten plenty of e-mails that see you the way I do.
Lost perhaps, deceived- most definitely. Always against the victims- that was unanimous.
Like I said it might not be verbatim but the gist of your insults have been that sex with VPW it was consensual. And this point is usually brought up after a woman shares an experience with VPW. Which SHOOTS THE VICTIM.
Someone, could have been me, pointed out to you that even if it was consensual it was WRONG and not in line with the actions becoming a minister of God's word. The point was lost on you.
To show you that VPW was even drugging girls to have sex with them, I gave you a reference where Marsha and JAL say it.
When I pointed you toward Marsha's letter on Juedes site, you disregarded the letter and instead told me that "my God was Juedes".
Again, the point was lost on you.
You talk about deception? You are a master at a low sweet talking guy who takes the point and swings it to an insult.
I do believe VPW is a fake, I think his own resume of actions surely show he was not working FOR God. That is my opinion. I do think his intent was to whisk us away to spiritual impotence. When I shared my thoughts.
You make it personal:
You say I am bold with lies, insinuate I am working for the devil, say I blind and distort things and have hatred.
You take the focus off of the things VPW did, which are part of history now babe, there has been more than a few people who have stepped up to the plate to expose the truth. And you turn it towards ME. "No VPW is not a deceiver! It is Dot!" (Even after we expose his lies, his stealing other authors works, have had women tell of the sexual abuse - you take the focus from exposing a false prophet. Mmmmmmm?
Even a big VPW fan would surely pause to see if maybe they need to rethink the pedestal they placed VPW on. Anyone really wanting to be free of this cult and get on with worshiping God, would at least ponder such things.)
But you do not miss a beat; you turn it around and make it MY problem. Why how "TWI" of you!
But you will be happy to know that it is in keeping with your "Father in the Word". Because I confronted him about the sex stuff and he then made it my problem. His response?
"What so ever things are pure think on these things" So, his SEXUAL abuse and practices were NOT wrong, it was HOW I LOOKED AT IT. Sounds like you Oldies, VP would be proud.
If you look at other posters and other testimony you will hear repeatedly VPW was not the man you think he was. Shaz has a brilliant post! Raf puts the comparisons between the books of Leonard and Weirwille, Goey posts the ?promise? to both men.
But you choose to ignore those things. Instead you look for the most vulnerable or weakest link on the thread. Which on this one is me because I was SO directly affected by VPW?s practices and you start to pick. This will change the focus of the BRILLANT posts and truth and instead place it on me. You are really a professional at this? Are you still on staff? You could have said, "I have a problem with which seems to be a conclusion on your part. I have had so many good things happen to me in TWI-1 I feel like I need to sefend VPW." Then, defend him, do not attack me. But you cannot defend him can you?
In the Soul Stealing thread as soon as Sunesis posts a very personal account of what VPW did to her:
?When I realized years ago that VPW had a woman in every port and the sex was much more prevalent than could really be imagined, that VP had been abusing TWIers as far back as when he first visited us "Groovy Christians" in Rye, New York where he had relations with at least one in particular 16 year old that I know of, it makes me sick.
?.When VPW came on to me graphically and lewdly, he told me a "secret" as to why he had sex with the girls and not his wife. I had to keep it lockbox and not tell a soul. Later, I heard he told this same "secret" to other girls. Also, those of you who never knew anything was going on, well, VPW was very careful who he picked - the vulnerable, those who wouldn't tell. Read the article. How these pastors almost have "psychic" ability, is how one parishioner put it, as to whom to pick.
And women did speak up. I know a woman in the first family corps who was very angry when VP came on to her and had been doing it to others. She was immediately thrown out and her name slandered, even in our town where she was from. She had "tripped out and was possessed." The standard line they gave. Any woman who spoke up was out - quick.
The rest, some even proud to be part of VPW's "secret club" never discussed it with the "uninitiated" or those not "spiritually mature" enough to handle it.
VPW was a predator, pure and simple.?
You turn things around in the next thread starting slowly:
You say:
One of the major premises of the soul-stealing article seems to be the following:
quote:
As with rape, a pastor's sexual or romantic involvement with a parishioner is not primarily a matter of sex or sexuality but of power and control.
?Says who? Would it be at least a possibility that the pastor is having sexual relations because he's horny?
I don't doubt there are some cases like this, but I'd like to see the definitive proof that every sexual relation of a pastor/parishioner is about power and control.
What about the woman? what if she willingly wants it??
Radar and Ala then try to talk to you and Ala can not believe you posted that!
So now the focus is OFF what Sunesis just shared and the issue becomes he was ?horny? and maybe they wanted it.
YOU DID NOT GET IT THEN AND YOU DO NOT NOW!
Then you prattle on about how it is not control?. Blaa blaaa
The posters try to reason with you. Lindy and Radar make great points.
Blaa Blaaa
You say ?People are responsible for their actions.?
This is while folks are trying to unfold to you what happened to them. You minimize the hugeness of VPW?s crap and make it the responsibility of the ?believer?
Again, missing the point and changing the focus to protect VPW.
Then, ANOTHER testimony from Alfacat who KNOWS of the abuse and he gives you a wake up call?
It goes on and on and on.
Then, someone asks WHY they did not report this stuff. The victims explain the fear on and on?
You say, now showing the strength of your ability to change focus and NOW we have you placing it back on the victim:
You quote someone:
When I asked why no one said anything there were two answers that stood out in my mind:
1. No one would believe them.
2. They believed they were "doing the Word" according to the MOG.
AND YOU (OLDIES) SAY:
Another possible reason why some women never said anything:
3. They knew they had sinned by voluntarily committing adultery with VPW, and they kept their sin with VPW in the lockbox. They confessed their sin to God, asked for his forgiveness, and the matter for all intents and purposes, was forgiven and forgotten
GEEZ Oldies?. You did not, you do not and you do not WANT TO GET IT.
So, even if it was not a forced or evil seduction in your mind, VPW was NOT THE MAN YOU THOUGHT HE WAS! Okay, being as you like to minimize people?s accounts lets say VPW did not drug people, seduce or assault. Let?s just say he poked everything he could?. Somehow by tying him up into that kind of package you become able to handle your deception. ?It wasn?t REALLY rape. It wasn?t bad as the girls wanted it, he was just a horny guy.? So, you take peoples experiences, MANY people?s experiences, minimize them to an acceptable level FOR you, so that you do not have to change. You have had more than TWO witnesses tell you the truth, you choose to be ignorant.
LET IT GO.
YOU WERE DECEIVED.
A TON of believers told you. There has been many witnesses to this fact but you REFUSE to see.
You want to accuse me of lies and deceit, you need to get a mirror pal.
Just because you choose to remain ignorant does not mean I or anyone else is going to tolerate your bu?sh-t.
You see for someone like you to dislike me is an honor because it means I am the antithisis of VPW - who you refuse to knock off the throne you constructed.
By the way, in your most recent attacks of me, you are not reading things in context, didn't VPW teach you better than that?
But again, now the thread is about "Oldies" much like things become about "Mike" whenever someone tried to share a truthful more informed view on the pratices of VPW.
IMO, Oldies you are one brain cell away from being Mike. Just your brand of diversion is more insidious then his. You are never REALLY nailed down, never really open to others, you strke and then crawl back under your "nice guy" sign hoping the few friends you have made here do not have a clear picture of what you promote.
Oldies, go back under your sign. Most have seen the real you by now. You can ignore me and I will you. Your acrid and shallow observations were just to derail anyone from seeing VPW's true agenda "steal, kill and destroy" IMO.
Again, Shaz has a beautiful post on what evil looks like. Because you saw a few smiles, handshakes and had a few indirect strokes does not mean VPW was not evil to people. IT is the face that evil wears. If you had a "nice twig" thank GOD and your twig leaders. They protected you from the masked man.
Good bye Oldies. I am wiping the dust off my feet. You have been helped endlessly. You do not want to know.
What do you want? You want me to say VPW was a good guy that went bad. The record reports things differently, unless maybe you go back to when he was 20 or something. But from the point he started poking people, which was EARLY on, he has hurt people. He did it with a smile, which apparently makes everything okay in your book.
So, you think I can only see evil BECAUSE of the sex. Sex apparently is not a big deal to you, whether it is executed according to scripture (marriage) or not.
So, let's look at the OTHER things. The stolen promise. The stolen books, the stolen class...
When I first brought the stolen class up to you year(s) ago, you said "No one can steal the Bible it is there for everyone" (gist). I did not say THE BIBLE I said the class.
So, it is not that ALL I see is jaded by the sexual practices. I see other things. A litney of things that when added up prove to be a long story of bad things. I bet Plots as a minister would be tossed out if he ahd a list like this! As would any minister.
So, I am not jaded by his sexual crap. You are jaded by deceit and your inability to yield to evidence "the church" has brought to you.
I will continue to express my opinions. I am sure you will continue to defend VPW and shut out the testimony of victims.
Do not take it so personally when I express my feelings about VPW. They are mine and I am allowed to have them. You strike out as if I blackened your eye. That kind of alliegence may need to be re-examined by you.
It is best that we avoid each other.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 10, 2003 at 10:54.]
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Dot Matrix
Now, back to plagerism...
Anyone want to post anything else VPW stole?
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oldiesman
I never excused VP of his evil acts, so this is more deception. Even if the girls willingly had sex, it's still at least adultery where VPW was concerned. I've said that repeatedly.
That may be true, but if I have a difficult time believing something and ask questions about it, what's wrong with challenging? If posters don't want to be scrutinized, they shouldn't post. But the reverse is also true, and even more so. Anyone who is pro-twi or pro-VPW gets challenged repeatedly.
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rascal
Asking challenging questions is one thing Oldies......openly accusing folks of being liars or filled with hate or working for satan simply BECAUSE you are unwilling to consider their account or point of view is harmfull and wrong.
To justify these actions as simply as *challenges* is just one more way of decieving yourself into thinking that your behavior isn`t harmfull...imo
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