It is not arguable that large parts of Mr. Wierwille's early work was identical or nearly so to the works of other authors.
quote:(by MIKE)The purpose of Dr collecting (by revelation) and correcting (by revelation) the materials that God had inspired in others was to BLESS US! I did get blessed.
Okay, it now looks like there is no argument about whether Mr. Wierwille actually read the works of others before compiling his own works. It certainly is a documented fact that Wierwille and a few others attended Leonard's class in Canada.
There doesn't seem to be an argument about whether or not Wierwille's actions meet the legal definition of plagerism.
The only argument that I can discern is whether it was important or not. Whether Wierwille should or should not be held to the same standards as everyone else. Whether Wierwille's wholesale copying of others' works was done at the behest of God, or in order to line his own pockets.
When's one's unshakeable premise is that PFAL is the new Word of God, and that virtually everything done to bring it forth was justified, then nothing else matters.
When one has a somewhat open mind, one can more easily accept that things may not have been as they appear.
Roy brought up a good point: If someone had taken Wierwille's work and repackaged it under a different name, how would Wierwille have responded? Never mind hypotheticals, look how he did respond to independent groups (the Way East, the Way West and the Way of Australia) running classes that he had no direct control over?
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
If we're all supposed to be one big happy family, then we're supposed to be treating each other BETTER than we treat the outsiders, whom the Word of God says we're to be GOOD to.
We aren't supposed to rip each other off, the way Wierwille ripped off Leonard. We aren't supposed to take advantage of out brothers and sisters in Christ for the sake of money, power and sex. Yet that's exactly what Wierwille did. If TWI was a "family", it was a highly disfunctional one, not the kind of family relation we find described in Paul's writings.
TWI is all flipped out about people running boot leg PFAL classes!
There was talk of legal problems if people ran it or copied it and shared it with others.
>>
Actually it would be a simple matter for anyone
with requsisite way experience to "film" their
own version of PFAL (but call it something else and rewrite the syllabus). Didn't CG do this ?
Camcorders are cheap and lord knows (no pun intended) that many know various sessions quite well. I know a guy locally who had the PFAL so many times he can pick up anywhere with it if you start making given statements from it.
Diazbro, yes they could film it and say they got the info right from God!!!! Actually, that is not a bad idea to side step the legal stuff. I know someone who could do it in a Craig accent! Or they can buy Leonard's stuff and come by it legally and see how things could have been...
:)-->
Oakster!
You can quote and credit Karl! I have a small mention in that book and could relate what I saw; oh, I already have and it did not make a difference! Nevermind!
What? The story of how Wierwille did a hostile takeover of the Way East and the Way West has never been posted here before?
Heefner and Doop were heading up independent corporations using the PFAL class and running fellowships in California and New York respectively. They had a separate set of Trustees or Directors. I don't remember all the details, but Wierwille managed to set things up so that he was in control of both organizations, folding them into the Way International. He saw how others were having sucess using his stuff...if he was that much of a control freak, does anyone think that he would have stood still if unauthorized people were printing copies of PFAL, or even just parts of it and putting their own names on it? Of course not!
The remarks about plagerizing from Karl were supposed to be humorous!!!! -->
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
I don?t believe Dr was competing in the academic realm, nor was he competing in the marketplace. The purpose of Dr collecting (by revelation) and correcting (by revelation) the materials that God had inspired in others was to BLESS US! I did get blessed.
To hold Dr to academic standards is ludicrous. The academic standards are there to keep in line a bunch of God rejecters. Dr blessed us with a wonderful collection of truths for our own benefit. "
Your joking right? YOU YOU YOU did I make it clear that YOU have represented VPW as a "scholar, teacher and as far as I can tell Jesus Christ" on more than one occassion!
You know Mike all he was, was a good ole boy who got caught being a scum bag in his mind and actions and the truth of his fruit lives on.
He may have had a good heart at some point but only God know's when it went south. You have no argument, you have no proof, you have no Man Of God.
If all those men you mentioned touched his life so much he could not possibly have forgotten them in footnotes he just knew that they would not be paying attention to him because they were busy actually studying the bible. Not stealing from other true SCHOLARS.
EVERY book of VPW's has a copyright date on it, and a Library of Congress catalogue number. The only reason to go through such a process is to legally protect your writings from plagiarism. So yes, Wierwille was definitely concerned about others stealing HIS works, but it didn't stop him from stealing from others.
I have seen books by other Christian authors that have NO copyright restrictions on them, but VPW's works do not fall in that category. YOU may think that copying and disseminating "God's" words without crediting the authors is okay, but VPW cetainly didn't. I have said this to you before on another thread, but you sort of forgot that little piece of "data."
VPW offered the works of others in The Way bookstore, but he conveniently left out those specific works he stole from. I never saw a copy of Stiles little book on the gifts of the spirit until I found one at a used book sale a couple of years ago. (BTW, in the beginning of that book, the author decried plagiarism of his work.) Wierwille never offered B.G. Leonard's work in The Way bookstore as far as I know, and I go back to 1971. Why did he offer some of the works of Kenyon, Bullinger, etc.? I would guess that he simply wanted to flesh out his bookstore and earn more profit! When he had written more of his own stuff, I noticed the works of others just sort of dried up.
quote:VPW offered the works of others in The Way bookstore, but he conveniently left out those specific works he stole from. I never saw a copy of Stiles little book on the gifts of the spirit until I found one at a used book sale a couple of years ago. (BTW, in the beginning of that book, the author decried plagiarism of his work.) Wierwille never offered B.G. Leonard's work in The Way bookstore as far as I know, and I go back to 1971. Why did he offer some of the works of Kenyon, Bullinger, etc.? I would guess that he simply wanted to flesh out his bookstore and earn more profit! When he had written more of his own stuff, I noticed the works of others just sort of dried up
Shaz! WOW! Stiles also spoke of how his work was stolen? Wow!
EVERYTIME i saw Dr. make that statement he was reading from the Bible.
"There is no use trying" said Alice, "one can't believe impossible things".
"I dare say, you haven?t had much practice" said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast".
quote:... When it does come to that marketplace, Dr most certainly BOOSTED the sales of Keyon, Bullinger, and Leonard...
I think Dr. boosted the sales of Kenyon and Bullinger because all of us had access to those books in the Way bookstore. However, I never saw any of Leonard's books there. So to say Leonard's sales were boosted is incorrect. Further, I never heard VP advocate taking any of Leonard's classes...has anyone?
on the other hand, Mike said:
quote:We could fuss over what did NOT go right back then, or we can celebrate God's success in blessing us.
quote:To hold Dr to academic standards is ludicrous.
To hold You to intelectual honesty is equally ludicrous.
quote:Dr often stated ?I didn?t write the book!? and I know he often downplayed the idea of origination.
He was referring to the Bible Mike. The PFAL book clearly names VPW's as the author.
quote:We're supposed to be a FAMILY, not an academic institution
Then why did VPW call TWI a "Research and Teaching Ministry". Sounds kind of "academic" to me.
quote:To bring up the subject of "origination" to cloud this wonderful truth of God's success is not good.
Wrong! Dicsussing the subject of "orgination" of PFAL sheds light upon source of the work and the character of VPW. To deny it clouds the truth about how PFAL really came about and it's obviously uninspired nature.
quote:I have a message of good cheer for the family: God succeeded in His work with Dr to bless us FAR MORE than we could ever guess. God gave us His WORD in a far more powerful way than antiquity could.
Mike, Take your stupid message and shove it up your... ( * )
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
"friends come and go but it is the word that stands".
Twi often taught straight up that people came in a sorry second to what they considered "truth" I think we all can agree on that fact right?
Mike even you ditch the "family" theory and will rant about how certain words of truth are to be held in a higher reason for being correct and righteous than the family word you use when explaining why vpw is better than anyone.
Your quite angry at your family most of the time because they do not agree with your position at least that is how you write.
If vpw never has to be accountable to what he wrote then how is it any one who reads it has to be accountable to it? double standard much?
I do not understand how you can scream it is about family one minute then flip out and claim what that family says is in error and to be discounted and from the devil when they are speaking the utter truth of a situation such as where and what someone did.
I hear you saying vpw could do it because God told him to put if anyone one eles thinks they can but two and two together then it is the devil talking to them. God only talks to the one man vpw?
Here is the problem , if the lord tarries and fewer people know what pfal is the ONLY thing left is the books Mike and the books will be looked at with the eye of academic as the author holds no spell over them as a great leader or MOG. He will be like millions of other dead authors and looked at in only the academic sense .
so to say it doest matter in some fantasy family that will all eventualy die either (from what the book says as truth or literaly ). the idea of it "being from God" will only live out your life time and then only because you believe it .
In another fifty years of being dead and gone those who encounter pfal books will have only academics to look at it regardless of how much you believe what you believe.
Mike listen I also think it is sad that pfal is dying and nearly gone now and will be totaly useless to people in just a few short years.
I think it is good people hold people accountable even if it does hurt you , to hear negatives about an author you respect.
God moves on with us Mike ,time moves on the"word lives on" it doesnt stop because someone can be critical . Or even when somone dies .
Jesus Christ Lives Mike forever now and He consideres Himself our teacher and He is.
God is so much bigger than one generation Mike.
God didnt die vpw did.
I have to close my speech with the good news Dot opened this with We have authors today working with the Lord that write stuff that is to heal us all. Jesus is a Lord of the times and people and how they think and do things change He teaches us how to live daily, it is a spirit we live within not a simple book written by any one man.
It is a life given by a spirit of a most high God and a personal REal life that never ends that God is the Father of. not a stitch in time that felt good to you that cant change or refuses to change. God never changes but people do and Jesus Christ has a job to do as Lord and that is to teach us how to live in the world that constantly changes powers and principles .
Vpw had his day for a select few , I will not diminish what his writings did for your life , but I will say if you want to bring up the whole family idea of what God is doing , then recognize the past is indeed the past and Jesus Christ is alive in todays world without vpw and still on the throne as King of All creation. and nothing will stop him not even death anymore.
[This message was edited by mj412 on November 05, 2003 at 10:41.]
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Oakspear
It is not arguable that large parts of Mr. Wierwille's early work was identical or nearly so to the works of other authors.
Okay, it now looks like there is no argument about whether Mr. Wierwille actually read the works of others before compiling his own works. It certainly is a documented fact that Wierwille and a few others attended Leonard's class in Canada.There doesn't seem to be an argument about whether or not Wierwille's actions meet the legal definition of plagerism.
The only argument that I can discern is whether it was important or not. Whether Wierwille should or should not be held to the same standards as everyone else. Whether Wierwille's wholesale copying of others' works was done at the behest of God, or in order to line his own pockets.
When's one's unshakeable premise is that PFAL is the new Word of God, and that virtually everything done to bring it forth was justified, then nothing else matters.
When one has a somewhat open mind, one can more easily accept that things may not have been as they appear.
Roy brought up a good point: If someone had taken Wierwille's work and repackaged it under a different name, how would Wierwille have responded? Never mind hypotheticals, look how he did respond to independent groups (the Way East, the Way West and the Way of Australia) running classes that he had no direct control over?
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Steve!
OakTom, you make a very good point about Roy2027 making a very good point.
Why don't you tell us exactly what docvic(praise be his name) DID do, so it is not left to supposition?
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Oakspear
Nah, I don't want to plagerize Karl K.
:D-->
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Raf
Aww, go ahead. The Word of Karl is the Will of Karl.
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Dot Matrix
DEAR
TWI is all flipped out about people running boot leg PFAL classes!
There was talk of legal problems if people ran it or copied it and shared it with others.
Yet, Moggie VP can do it to others, just don't do it to him!
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Steve!
As long as he is (as he is) properly credited, what's the problen?
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Steve Lortz
If we're all supposed to be one big happy family, then we're supposed to be treating each other BETTER than we treat the outsiders, whom the Word of God says we're to be GOOD to.
We aren't supposed to rip each other off, the way Wierwille ripped off Leonard. We aren't supposed to take advantage of out brothers and sisters in Christ for the sake of money, power and sex. Yet that's exactly what Wierwille did. If TWI was a "family", it was a highly disfunctional one, not the kind of family relation we find described in Paul's writings.
Hear, hear! Dot Matrix!
Love,
Steve
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Oakspear
that was the initial reason...now I'm just being contrary.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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diazbro
Dot MAtrix said:
TWI is all flipped out about people running boot leg PFAL classes!
There was talk of legal problems if people ran it or copied it and shared it with others.
>>
Actually it would be a simple matter for anyone
with requsisite way experience to "film" their
own version of PFAL (but call it something else and rewrite the syllabus). Didn't CG do this ?
Camcorders are cheap and lord knows (no pun intended) that many know various sessions quite well. I know a guy locally who had the PFAL so many times he can pick up anywhere with it if you start making given statements from it.
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Dot Matrix
((((Almost everyone))))
Diazbro, yes they could film it and say they got the info right from God!!!! Actually, that is not a bad idea to side step the legal stuff. I know someone who could do it in a Craig accent! Or they can buy Leonard's stuff and come by it legally and see how things could have been...
Oakster!
You can quote and credit Karl! I have a small mention in that book and could relate what I saw; oh, I already have and it did not make a difference! Nevermind!
I like the suggestion "Don't feed the monster."
Thanks insurgent!
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Oakspear
What? The story of how Wierwille did a hostile takeover of the Way East and the Way West has never been posted here before?
Heefner and Doop were heading up independent corporations using the PFAL class and running fellowships in California and New York respectively. They had a separate set of Trustees or Directors. I don't remember all the details, but Wierwille managed to set things up so that he was in control of both organizations, folding them into the Way International. He saw how others were having sucess using his stuff...if he was that much of a control freak, does anyone think that he would have stood still if unauthorized people were printing copies of PFAL, or even just parts of it and putting their own names on it? Of course not!
The remarks about plagerizing from Karl were supposed to be humorous!!!!
-->
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Oakspear
I'm having a rough week
:(-->
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Dot Matrix
((((Oakster))))
Thanks for the scoop!
Hope your week gets better!!!!
BTW, it may have been posted before but I never did read it here, so thanks Oak man!
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Nottawayfer
I agree not to feed the monster anymore either.
Laughter is a tranquilizer with no side effects.
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DATWAY
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shazdancer
Mike,
EVERY book of VPW's has a copyright date on it, and a Library of Congress catalogue number. The only reason to go through such a process is to legally protect your writings from plagiarism. So yes, Wierwille was definitely concerned about others stealing HIS works, but it didn't stop him from stealing from others.
I have seen books by other Christian authors that have NO copyright restrictions on them, but VPW's works do not fall in that category. YOU may think that copying and disseminating "God's" words without crediting the authors is okay, but VPW cetainly didn't. I have said this to you before on another thread, but you sort of forgot that little piece of "data."
VPW offered the works of others in The Way bookstore, but he conveniently left out those specific works he stole from. I never saw a copy of Stiles little book on the gifts of the spirit until I found one at a used book sale a couple of years ago. (BTW, in the beginning of that book, the author decried plagiarism of his work.) Wierwille never offered B.G. Leonard's work in The Way bookstore as far as I know, and I go back to 1971. Why did he offer some of the works of Kenyon, Bullinger, etc.? I would guess that he simply wanted to flesh out his bookstore and earn more profit! When he had written more of his own stuff, I noticed the works of others just sort of dried up.
Shaz
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Dot Matrix
Thanks all, good points!
Again, (((((everyone))))) (except Mike)
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Dot Matrix
Shaz! WOW! Stiles also spoke of how his work was stolen? Wow!
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JeffMedic
EVERYTIME i saw Dr. make that statement he was reading from the Bible.
"There is no use trying" said Alice, "one can't believe impossible things".
"I dare say, you haven?t had much practice" said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast".
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Yanagisawa
Anytime someone pooh-poohs the rigours of academic standards as "the world's way" run like the wind. You've got a jen-you-wine cult leader.
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oldiesman
Mike said:
I think Dr. boosted the sales of Kenyon and Bullinger because all of us had access to those books in the Way bookstore. However, I never saw any of Leonard's books there. So to say Leonard's sales were boosted is incorrect. Further, I never heard VP advocate taking any of Leonard's classes...has anyone?
on the other hand, Mike said:
I do agree with that statement....
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Goey
Mike,
To hold You to intelectual honesty is equally ludicrous. He was referring to the Bible Mike. The PFAL book clearly names VPW's as the author. Then why did VPW call TWI a "Research and Teaching Ministry". Sounds kind of "academic" to me. Wrong! Dicsussing the subject of "orgination" of PFAL sheds light upon source of the work and the character of VPW. To deny it clouds the truth about how PFAL really came about and it's obviously uninspired nature. Mike, Take your stupid message and shove it up your... ( * )Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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mj412
"It is the word and nothing but the word,"
"friends come and go but it is the word that stands".
Twi often taught straight up that people came in a sorry second to what they considered "truth" I think we all can agree on that fact right?
Mike even you ditch the "family" theory and will rant about how certain words of truth are to be held in a higher reason for being correct and righteous than the family word you use when explaining why vpw is better than anyone.
Your quite angry at your family most of the time because they do not agree with your position at least that is how you write.
If vpw never has to be accountable to what he wrote then how is it any one who reads it has to be accountable to it? double standard much?
I do not understand how you can scream it is about family one minute then flip out and claim what that family says is in error and to be discounted and from the devil when they are speaking the utter truth of a situation such as where and what someone did.
I hear you saying vpw could do it because God told him to put if anyone one eles thinks they can but two and two together then it is the devil talking to them. God only talks to the one man vpw?
Here is the problem , if the lord tarries and fewer people know what pfal is the ONLY thing left is the books Mike and the books will be looked at with the eye of academic as the author holds no spell over them as a great leader or MOG. He will be like millions of other dead authors and looked at in only the academic sense .
so to say it doest matter in some fantasy family that will all eventualy die either (from what the book says as truth or literaly ). the idea of it "being from God" will only live out your life time and then only because you believe it .
In another fifty years of being dead and gone those who encounter pfal books will have only academics to look at it regardless of how much you believe what you believe.
Mike listen I also think it is sad that pfal is dying and nearly gone now and will be totaly useless to people in just a few short years.
I think it is good people hold people accountable even if it does hurt you , to hear negatives about an author you respect.
God moves on with us Mike ,time moves on the"word lives on" it doesnt stop because someone can be critical . Or even when somone dies .
Jesus Christ Lives Mike forever now and He consideres Himself our teacher and He is.
God is so much bigger than one generation Mike.
God didnt die vpw did.
I have to close my speech with the good news Dot opened this with We have authors today working with the Lord that write stuff that is to heal us all. Jesus is a Lord of the times and people and how they think and do things change He teaches us how to live daily, it is a spirit we live within not a simple book written by any one man.
It is a life given by a spirit of a most high God and a personal REal life that never ends that God is the Father of. not a stitch in time that felt good to you that cant change or refuses to change. God never changes but people do and Jesus Christ has a job to do as Lord and that is to teach us how to live in the world that constantly changes powers and principles .
Vpw had his day for a select few , I will not diminish what his writings did for your life , but I will say if you want to bring up the whole family idea of what God is doing , then recognize the past is indeed the past and Jesus Christ is alive in todays world without vpw and still on the throne as King of All creation. and nothing will stop him not even death anymore.
[This message was edited by mj412 on November 05, 2003 at 10:41.]
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itchley
me gracious.
never knew this.
marywonni
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