I reread your post and WOW! Sounds like people getting MAD when Jesus healed a guy on the Sabbath!
quote: There was a steady stream of people going to the trailer at all hours for healing. When the Great Fore Head heard of this a sentry was posted there to keep people away! So they'd sneak in the back door. I recall there were lots of health problems at HQ in those days. Hmmm.
The Word-Faith movement is that family of believers who teach things like "the law of believing," "name it and claim it," etc. Stuff that reminds you of Wierwille when you hear it from the likes of Ken Hagin, Ken Copeland and KC Price... It reminds you of Wierwille because they all rely on the same source: EW Kenyon.
Without a doubt, Wierwille plagiarized Kenyon. But Wierwille was a veritable gentleman and scholar compared to the level of plagiarism of Kenyon by Kenneth Hagin.
There is a difference between "influences", "quoting", and "word styles" and out-and-out plagiarism.
Hagin's work was an out-and-out plagiarism, notwithstanding what that one author said. That author said, "If I have to try to remember everyone who has influenced one of my teachings and give him credit, I'll go crazy" (total paraphrase).
Hagin absolutely went way beyond "quoting" or "being influenced by" Kenyon.
Again, you are trying to protect your hero, docvic(praise be his name).
Is your ego so fragile, are you so locked-in to the idea that you utterly refuse to see what is right in front of your face?
Are you so desperate to excuse the acts of that deranged perverted man that you are willing to overlook what are more than just minor character flaws?
quote:We consider Kenneth E. Hagin to be a great man of God. If E.W. Kenyon were here today, he and Hagin would probably be good friends. And from his vantage point in heaven, Kenyon is probably delighted that Kenneth E. Hagin has been so successful in getting the message of faith, so dear to Kenyon?s heart, out to so many in the world in this generation.
If Kenyon himself wouldn?t be bothered about it all, why should anyone else?
With all due respect, HORSEHOCKEY. Look carefully at what's written there:
"From his vantage point in heaven, Kenyon is probably delighted."
PROBABLY delighted?
Actually, in my belief, Kenyon would probably be infuriated. Which one of us is right? We cannot know because such a statement is BASELESS SPECULATION. To take the next step and say "If Kenyon himself wouldn't have been bothered, why should anyone else" is a logical fallacy. IF my BASELESS SPECULATION is true, why should you have a problem with the flagrant theft Kenyon's works?
It's barely worthy of a response.
quote:They've [the Faith teachers] all copied from my Dad [E. W. Kenyon]. They've changed it a little bit and added their own touch. . . , but they couldn't change the wording. The Lord gave him [Kenyon] words and phrases. He coined them. They can't put it in any other words. . . It's very difficult for some people to be big enough to give credit to somebody else.
quote:Although Mrs. Houseworth is extremely gracious when asked about her father's lack of recognition, she is decidedly not "laughing" about it, not even "a little bit." She feels hurt that the Faith teachers have failed to give credit where credit is due. Moreover; the Kenyon Gospel Publishing Society has been exploited financially by the massive popularity of Hagin (whose first book was not published until 1960), Copeland, et al. Houseworth can no longer afford to publish its newsletter because of what she sees as the injustice done to her father.
The injustice done to Kenyon has not gone unnoticed by others who knew him. For instance, one man who both knew and occasionally ministered with Kenyon, John Kennington, pastor of Emmanuel Temple in Portland, Oregon, says this of his role in the Faith movement:
Today Kenyon's ideas are in the ascendancy. Via the electronic church or in the printed page I readily recognize not only Kenyon's concepts, but at times I recognize pure plagiarism, for I can almost tell you book, chapter, and page where the material is coming from. Kenyon has be-come the "father" of the so-called "faith" movement.
Now get this: tell me if it doesn't sound familiar.
quote:Mr. Kenyon went home to be with the Lord in 1948. It was 1950 before I was introduced to his books. A brother in the Lord asked me, "Did you ever read after Dr. Kenyon?" I said, "I've never heard of him." He said, "You preach healing and faith just like he does." He gave me some of Kenyon's books. And he did preach faith and healing just like I do. After all, if someone preaches the new birth, and somebody else preaches the new birth, it has to be the same. Likewise, if you preach faith and healing - and I mean Bible faith and Bible healing - it has to be the same. We may have different words to express it, but if it is according to the word of God, it is the same truth.
The emphasis in that last paragraph was mine because he said "we may use different words to express it" when, in fact, he's not using different words at all.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on November 11, 2003 at 18:19.]
So who was the source of that last quote Raf? Kenneth Hagin? It's pretty amazing to me that preachers who have attracted such a broad following are being exposed as dishonest intellectual thieves. Makes you kind of wonder about the spiritual depth of those kind of ministries doesn't it?
Re-reading these posts, I had an thought I'd like to share.
What VPW, Hagin and other have done is market a product. They have taken "Ideas" from others, some previously published, some not.
They have packaged, branded and marketeted them more successfuly than those (Bullinger, Kenyon, Leonard, Stiles and others) who developed them. These assimilators were more sucessful at diseminating the information because they were better marketers. Pehaps because part of their motivation was wealth power and prestige.
I am not excusing plagarism or theft of intellectual property, just commenting on the process.
These assimilators were more sucessful at diseminating the information because they were better marketers. Pehaps because part of their motivation was wealth power and prestige.
Ckeer, I don't think anyone has the a problem
with that assessment. Far from it since many
have arrived at the same conclusion. Idea stealers are perhaps more shrewd at advancing
ideas than they are at developing them.
In any case it seems that the primary
soure of disagreement here is how one should now consider VPW given his plagiarism. Which
is something that most seem to acknowledge (but not all).
Some would have us adopt a "well he passed on a good message , stolen or not" attitude while others want him to be held accountable for his deceit. Obviously some are in the middle and since VPW is deceased there isn't going to be much input from him.
Speaking in general I think that is a good topic
and I don't get tired talking about it since I think some people need to hear this information
since maybe they have not heard it before or
perhaps are just now beginning to consider that
VPW wasn't really the biblical hotshot he claimed to be. Most already know that but many
aren't ready to give up on that idea.
In my local area I know some VPW hardcores who
simply won't listen to criticism against VPW
and they throttle it with all kinds of things
like "you are talking bad about a dead man"
yet they regularly trash deceased "cop outs" and even suggest that their negative believing
had something to do with it. In fact I think
the larger share of VPW loyalists and preservationists don't come to GSpot even
quote:He was 93 going on 94 I believe. What struck me most about him was the fact that... HE PRAYED ALL DAY LONG! For real. All day long you could hear him singing, praising God, praying, prophesying etc.
well i've always seen this in vp, cg, lc and all the rest of the moggies ha ha ha ha ha
Hey Dot...as far as the inspiration for aos ....I was taking the advanced class when lcm showed up at emporia all excited about some movie he`d seen with John Travola recently, where the spiritual underworld was portrayed in a dance production so realistically...
He got all fired up about how the ministry could do it so much better .... that was his inspiration anyway.....wanting to prove how twi could outdo hollywood...cause we were so superior in everyway don`tcha know?
Diaz Bro- Thanks for your reply to my post, This whole thread is helping question my assumptions and change my beliefs, heal and move on.
I guess where I am at right now and the point I was trying to get to (which your post helped with) is that the assimilating, repackaging branding and selling of someone elses product is a large part of the american way of life and bussiness. I see that as both good and evil. Improvemnt of a product or idea is good.
Marketing an improved product to more people is good. Taking a "perfectly" good product and making changes to escape legal patent or copywrite restrictions is evil. It does not improve the product, it weakens it.
I remember VPW stated durring the first part of the foundational class how much he had read works "around" the bible an "Word" for years before he started to just go to the "Word".
He takled about how he had met many men who had great ministries but he at least implied that they fell away from him because they would not "Go to the Word". I now wonder if this was his attempt to attribute and credit by discrediting his sources. Was it an excuse to plagarise? An indication of VPW's own weakness?
I also wonder what it was he saw in the "man of God" that came to teach at his church. I can't remember his name but if I remember the story, when "The man of God" was introduced to VPW he asked VP- what he wanted to do when he grew up and VP replied "be a man of God like you sir". Why? From a psychological stand point this could reveal a great personal weakness.
One reason I am thinking along these lines is because I just finshed the novel by Imus "God's other son". It is about a very messed up boy who grows up to become the most famous and powerful evangelist in the modern world and believes he is God's other son. Parts of it are funny and parts painful.
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Evan
I reread your post and WOW! Sounds like people getting MAD when Jesus healed a guy on the Sabbath!
Deplorable!
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Raf
Dot,
The Word-Faith movement is that family of believers who teach things like "the law of believing," "name it and claim it," etc. Stuff that reminds you of Wierwille when you hear it from the likes of Ken Hagin, Ken Copeland and KC Price... It reminds you of Wierwille because they all rely on the same source: EW Kenyon.
Without a doubt, Wierwille plagiarized Kenyon. But Wierwille was a veritable gentleman and scholar compared to the level of plagiarism of Kenyon by Kenneth Hagin.
Wierwille wasn't alone.
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oldiesman
Raf, did you happen to check out Kenyon's website and their response about Kenyon being plagiarized. What do you think?
And might we possibly apply some of this thinking to Dr. W ?
Was Kenyon Plagiarized?
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Steve!
I'm sorry, Oldiesman, you are an idiot and blind.
There is a difference between "influences", "quoting", and "word styles" and out-and-out plagiarism.
Hagin's work was an out-and-out plagiarism, notwithstanding what that one author said. That author said, "If I have to try to remember everyone who has influenced one of my teachings and give him credit, I'll go crazy" (total paraphrase).
Hagin absolutely went way beyond "quoting" or "being influenced by" Kenyon.
Again, you are trying to protect your hero, docvic(praise be his name).
Is your ego so fragile, are you so locked-in to the idea that you utterly refuse to see what is right in front of your face?
Are you so desperate to excuse the acts of that deranged perverted man that you are willing to overlook what are more than just minor character flaws?
I pity you, I really do.
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Dot Matrix
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Dot Matrix
It is interesting that it is on a Kenyon site, though...
Raf? thoughts?
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Raf
Oldiesman,
With all due respect, HORSEHOCKEY. Look carefully at what's written there:
"From his vantage point in heaven, Kenyon is probably delighted."
PROBABLY delighted?
Actually, in my belief, Kenyon would probably be infuriated. Which one of us is right? We cannot know because such a statement is BASELESS SPECULATION. To take the next step and say "If Kenyon himself wouldn't have been bothered, why should anyone else" is a logical fallacy. IF my BASELESS SPECULATION is true, why should you have a problem with the flagrant theft Kenyon's works?
It's barely worthy of a response.
From this site.
Now get this: tell me if it doesn't sound familiar.
The emphasis in that last paragraph was mine because he said "we may use different words to express it" when, in fact, he's not using different words at all.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on November 11, 2003 at 18:19.]
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Jbarrax
So who was the source of that last quote Raf? Kenneth Hagin? It's pretty amazing to me that preachers who have attracted such a broad following are being exposed as dishonest intellectual thieves. Makes you kind of wonder about the spiritual depth of those kind of ministries doesn't it?
Peace
JerryB
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Raf
No Jerry,
It doesn't make me "wonder" at all.
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Dot Matrix
Makes me sick. Was there that much corruption or that many tares among the wheat?
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ckeer
Re-reading these posts, I had an thought I'd like to share.
What VPW, Hagin and other have done is market a product. They have taken "Ideas" from others, some previously published, some not.
They have packaged, branded and marketeted them more successfuly than those (Bullinger, Kenyon, Leonard, Stiles and others) who developed them. These assimilators were more sucessful at diseminating the information because they were better marketers. Pehaps because part of their motivation was wealth power and prestige.
I am not excusing plagarism or theft of intellectual property, just commenting on the process.
wasn't born to follow-
false doctrines
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diazbro
Hey so I wanted to point out that as the AOS thing
started to get hot I pointed out to my local leaders that
there were undeniable similarities between that idea and the
Fellowship Of Christian Athletes which was founded in 1954.
See www.fca.org and check out the sight. Here is a quote:
"Since 1954, the Fellowship of Christian Athletes has been
challenging coaches and athletes on the professional, college,
high school, junior high and youth levels to use the powerful
medium of athletics to impact the world for Jesus Christ"
Sound kind of familiar ? Using sports as a metaphor for the christian
walk ? I was active in this organization growing up and I'm quite c
ertain that LCM would have had some enocunter with this group. Famous
athletes like Fran Tarkenton supported the outfit so it was far from
obscure. Whenever I wanted to comapre the AOS concept to FCA I got
silenced real quick. People were telling me that FCA was the counterfeit
to TWI's truth and they simply would't hear me when I mentioned that FCA
was in exsitence long before AOS came around.
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Dot Matrix
WOW
Other big foreheads leaping around in tights, truly it IS a scary world!
On a serious note, why couldn't LCM just say I heard a concept I would like to incorporate here.... Instead of getting rev. or whatever the story was?
BTW, the creed poem thingy was kinda cool.
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WordWolf
Actually, the term "athletes of the spirit" was in use
LONG before twi used it.
I forget which website we saw it on a few months ago.
Could have been FCA, or something on Starr Daily, or
somebody else. (Glenn Clark? Rufus Mosley?)
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diazbro
Ckeer, I don't think anyone has the a problem
with that assessment. Far from it since many
have arrived at the same conclusion. Idea stealers are perhaps more shrewd at advancing
ideas than they are at developing them.
In any case it seems that the primary
soure of disagreement here is how one should now consider VPW given his plagiarism. Which
is something that most seem to acknowledge (but not all).
Some would have us adopt a "well he passed on a good message , stolen or not" attitude while others want him to be held accountable for his deceit. Obviously some are in the middle and since VPW is deceased there isn't going to be much input from him.
Speaking in general I think that is a good topic
and I don't get tired talking about it since I think some people need to hear this information
since maybe they have not heard it before or
perhaps are just now beginning to consider that
VPW wasn't really the biblical hotshot he claimed to be. Most already know that but many
aren't ready to give up on that idea.
In my local area I know some VPW hardcores who
simply won't listen to criticism against VPW
and they throttle it with all kinds of things
like "you are talking bad about a dead man"
yet they regularly trash deceased "cop outs" and even suggest that their negative believing
had something to do with it. In fact I think
the larger share of VPW loyalists and preservationists don't come to GSpot even
to lurk since its likely that they will see
bad things posted about their "Father in the
Word".
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diazbro
Dot said:
Other big foreheads leaping around in tights, truly it IS a scary world!
>>
*laff* Well I think that TWI can claim sole
owenship of that idea - leaping around in tights
while fighting devil spriits and amoebas.
FCA didn't really have any productions quite like AOS and thank God for that.
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Dot Matrix
Diazbro
your post to Ckeer was very well stated!
I love the point about it is okay for them to trash a dead "cop out" but if we discuss VP it is "he is dead!"
Valid, good point.
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excathedra
dead man "walking"
NOT
this is the craziest place i've ever been besides well.....
?
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excathedra
greek said
well i've always seen this in vp, cg, lc and all the rest of the moggies ha ha ha ha haok bye
?
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rascal
Hey Dot...as far as the inspiration for aos ....I was taking the advanced class when lcm showed up at emporia all excited about some movie he`d seen with John Travola recently, where the spiritual underworld was portrayed in a dance production so realistically...
He got all fired up about how the ministry could do it so much better .... that was his inspiration anyway.....wanting to prove how twi could outdo hollywood...cause we were so superior in everyway don`tcha know?
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Oakspear
Actually Martindale was in FCA when in college. I believe he was a big wheel in KU's FCA chapter, perhaps the president.
Did FCA use the athlete of the spirit as a metaphor for a Christian? Or did they use the popularity of athletes to further the Christian message?
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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ckeer
Diaz Bro- Thanks for your reply to my post, This whole thread is helping question my assumptions and change my beliefs, heal and move on.
I guess where I am at right now and the point I was trying to get to (which your post helped with) is that the assimilating, repackaging branding and selling of someone elses product is a large part of the american way of life and bussiness. I see that as both good and evil. Improvemnt of a product or idea is good.
Marketing an improved product to more people is good. Taking a "perfectly" good product and making changes to escape legal patent or copywrite restrictions is evil. It does not improve the product, it weakens it.
I remember VPW stated durring the first part of the foundational class how much he had read works "around" the bible an "Word" for years before he started to just go to the "Word".
He takled about how he had met many men who had great ministries but he at least implied that they fell away from him because they would not "Go to the Word". I now wonder if this was his attempt to attribute and credit by discrediting his sources. Was it an excuse to plagarise? An indication of VPW's own weakness?
I also wonder what it was he saw in the "man of God" that came to teach at his church. I can't remember his name but if I remember the story, when "The man of God" was introduced to VPW he asked VP- what he wanted to do when he grew up and VP replied "be a man of God like you sir". Why? From a psychological stand point this could reveal a great personal weakness.
One reason I am thinking along these lines is because I just finshed the novel by Imus "God's other son". It is about a very messed up boy who grows up to become the most famous and powerful evangelist in the modern world and believes he is God's other son. Parts of it are funny and parts painful.
wasn't born to follow-
false doctrines
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WordWolf
Does somebody have a copy of the prefaces/introductions to RTHST and the
orang piffle book handy? I think Ckeer would like to see them again and
review exactly what vpw wrote about the "sincere" Christians he'd learned
from.....
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Greek2me
Dot said
Bundles to be burned dottie, bundles to be burned...
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