My God Dovey...what inhuman basturds. I cannot believe that they would tell you that...
What about it oldies...how is GOD gonna make up THIS injustice committed to Dovey by his supposed leaders eh? Is he going to excuse the heartless jerks masquerading as his representativess.......demanding the honor, respect, priveledges and perks due them in their status??
Twi was a horrible horrible place...
The awfull thing is...I can remember the mindset well enough to know that I probably would have been naievly nodding my head like a bobble head doll in agreement with their oh so spiritual assesment of needs in that situation...gotta just toughen up....gotta just think the word... I am SO sorry.
I have said it before...*gawd sometimes I make myself sick*
Just go wow n corpes...it`ll heal you (not to mention make our *numbers* for enrollment this year look good as well)
This is the kind of thing that rips the heart from my chest. To be in SOOOO MUCH PAIN that you could hardly breath, then having the right to grieve stolen from you by ?CHRISTIANS?. It is pitiful. So, yes I do think many who followed TWI and their moggies, were NOT working for the Lord. They were working for the devil.
Can you see Jesus say to you, don?t talk about it; do not grieve. He would open his arms and let you have a safe place to fall. He would brush the hair from your swollen red eyes, and wipe the tears as they flowed down your cheeks. He would have rocked you and let you pour out your pain. AND ?WE? as your Christian family should have behaved in like manner.
My little Dove, you cry out "why"? As long as you need to do so.
Your sweet baby boy is not allowed to be grieved for, or appropriately remembered; yet VPW is given some kind of a spiritual upgrade in death where all the evil he did magically vanishes and does not count.
He can be spoken of with adulation and his stolen work praised and the thievery of it goes unnoticed after a quick wink. Yet, an innocent child dies and we can?t even talk about how his favorite food made him smile or maybe how he loved puppies and frogs because speaking like that is WRONG.
It was a sick, twisted, spiritually perverted organization and unfortunately many are still caught in the thought patterns they tried to trap us with. If you see the truth and the truth is ?not pretty? then the person pointing it out must be ?not pretty.? (Evil, full of hatred an evildoer).
So, here you are with a giant wound for a heart and you are looked at as nuts because you lost your child.
How devilish?
I worked at a mental hospital to help mostly Alzheimer?s patients. There were tares among the wheat as well! They would send people out, recruiters to nursing homes and other places to push this ?Alzheimer?s unit? and the electric shock treatment. Which has been banned in all but I think 2 states. Georgia it is still used and Medicare pays the hospital $5,000.00 each time someone is zapped. So these tares go out among the desperate and sell the false hope treatment (IMO).
So, this one day this elderly woman is in the hospital and one of the recruiters is there. The woman and her husband had an attacker break in, beat them to a pulp, rape her and leave them for dead. Her face was so badly beaten it was difficult to tell she was a woman. Her skin was purple from the bruises; she had a broken arm and other wounds. This recruiter talked the family into committing her to the ?unit? for electric treatment to help her with depression! The head nurse, two other nurses and I were standing Christians. We prayed with patients, sang hymns and read them the Bible.
The Head nurse and I spoke at length about this. If this woman was NOT depressed it would be unhealthy. She was right where she needed to be mentally, yet these recruiters had her family stick her in this facility. One of the nurses, with risk to her own job, talked her family into getting her grief counseling, not to stick her in a mental ward with electric shock treatments!
This treatment reminds me of what happened to you. I am so sorry. If you were not distraught, there would have been something wrong with you. You were normal to be grieving over your baby. They are the abnormal ones. (IMO)
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 14, 2003 at 13:21.]
I think Rascal's comment to Oldies is one that has been made over pages.
I do not think she means to make it sound like that.
I maybe wrong, but I think she is stringing together a point she has been trying to make to him on pages here and many other threads, that TWI-1/VPW does not deserve the loyality he gives TWI-1 and VP.
It comes from what may be perceived as a cavalier attitude toward anything bad VPW did, like ?Oh well, God will make it up to them.?
I believe her remarks are why should GOD have to make it up? Why did they DO it to begin with?
The Oldies attitude seems to be like if we do not look at it, it did not happen!
Or even if it happened, well God will make it up to them.
She is saying let's not excuse it because it is uncomfortable, let's get it out from under the rug and deal with things. I think she is saying to make a statement like "God will make it up to them", is minimizing the things TWI-1 and VPW did to people.
God probably will help them, or make it up to them, but what I believe her point is, WHY should God have to make it up, we should not be behaving like that to begin with. Rascal has a problem with the behavior of VPW, TWI and the leaders who hurt people.
It seems sometimes that Oldies does not have a problem with THEIR BEHAVIOR or that he minimizes the heart wrenching affects of that behavior by comments like "God will make it up." It was not rape it was adultery, it was not really plagerism they just look real close.
Different approaches.
It seems it is the ?attitude? towards BEHAVIOR that she is addressing.
Rascal am I wrong? If so, I apologize. Just how I took it.
(Olds made a comment about God making things up to Leonard in heaven or something, anyway it was a point she has presented prior, sitting here alone it may look unfair to Oldies but it has been commentary between them for awhile)
Oak, you know what I like about you? You try to be fair whether you agree or disagree with a person. It speaks highly of you.
((((Oak))))) (((Rascal))) ((((Dovey))))
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 14, 2003 at 14:12.]
Dear Dot...thankyou for clarifying things that I ddid not articulate very well myself...
Thank you oak as well, I do not intend to be unfair to anybody.... (note to self DON`T post before first cup of coffee in the am anymore)
I was just stewing over how twi lovers on other pages and threads seem to want to say that it`s ok that these things happened...cause God will *make it up* to them somehow...... mean time praise God for twi/vpw...we learned some *word*
I think this attitude can still be a way of deceiving ourselves to the enormity of the evil manifested and horrors endured at vpw/twi`s hands...
Sorry I singled you out oldies... you are kind of taking it on the chin for all of the supporters that ever made me mad...lol I apologise.......I come out more abrasive than I intend to...I was upset over hearing about yet another horror endured by one of our dear friends....sigh.
Believe it or not it`s your ideas that I am attempting to examine, not attack you....personal assaults are always out of line.
A good book to read might be "Sorrow" by Norman Vincent Peale. I find that he is good to read sometimes. A Christian who promoted positive believing but did not have a narrow, rigid, controlling ministry. He didn't have any ministry save for his church in NYC, he wrote books so people could be blessed reading his books from their homes, not having to make "commitments" and saying TWI alone has the truth.
Dear friends, I did not mean to start an arguement. I just got so mad at something I read, that I really needed to vent. It was probably a long time coming for me and I too on occasion make excuses for what they did to me and others.
But I now (I think) realize that they can't make anything up to me so maybe I should just let it go, but that is really hard to do. Yes I can probably forgive them, but they never apologized to me in the first place and secondly even if I forgive them how can I forget too?
Can they give me the years back that they took from me? No
Can they give me my son back? no
Can they resore our good names that they lied about and destroyed? no
Has any leader ever apologized for the lies? Yes one our B.C. Left twi and found our e-ail address and e-mailed an apologized to us for going along with the lies they told and the hurt they caused.
Did we forgive him? YES
Can we forget too? No
How do you forget your own son and what they did to first rob me of the greiving we needed to go thru, then years later trash our lives like we were something less than human and our lives didn't mean a thing to them.
I hate the expression forgive and forget because even though you can forgive anything you can't forget some things and I don't ever want to forget my son. I want to remember him and the 10 precious years I had him. The rest of the stuff they did to us I try not to dwell on too much, but it is still there in our background, but I did learn a lesson from them. STAY THE H#LL OUT OF CULTS.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
oopS HIT THE WRONG BUTTON. now to continue......... They fooled us once.....shame on them.......If I get fooled again then shame on me.
Once again thank you all for your love and support I don't know what I would have done if it hadn't been for waydale and greasespot cafe. I love you all. Love Dovey
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
You need never forget. God had people's mistakes recorded for all time.
You do not need to forget what they did to you.
Forgiveness will happen in its time, when you can handle it. It will happen after the anger, and boy I would have a lot of anger after what happened to you.
It will all happen in its time. I HATE when people tell me to FORGIVE and I am not ready, or the perp did not aske for forgiveness. Hate it! And if you never forgive them that is your business.
If it happens, it will happen when it should.
Once I was so angry at a person who took my money without asking and gambled it ALL away in 24 hours. It was all I had.
I cannot tell you how mad I was.
I held on to it for a long time, until it was time to let it go. Then, I walked up to the person and said "I forgive you. For all of it."
He NEVER asked but rather justified his position with yelling and demeaning me...
But when it was time, and I said what I said because I had gotten to that place, (nobody can push someone into it, and when they try it just has ya get mad at them as well.) it was great. Including the shocked look on his mug. Funny, he was still an A-hole, but I was better for it.
Now, for those that think I should do that with others, who is to say I haven't? (Or if I haven't that is really nobody's business but mine and God's) I can still report to you that someone stole my money and gambled it, to share an account of my life.... And in the sharing it does not mean I hate or have not forgiven, it is a true reporting of an incident.
And that incident woke me up to protecting myself. As Dr. Phil says the best predictor of future events is the past history with a person.
Other people no longer have access to my funds.
Thus, I reported incidents in TWI as well, and how I FEEL about things and conclusions I have made to let certain loyalities to people go and be aware that even the most genuine searcher for God's heart can get tricked or fooled.
But after one does wake up they do want to help others out of the fog and that is not a bad thing. Just some people like foggy weather and don't want to hear, or to know, or to see. Their choice or their right to carry on as usual. (Others actually get angry if you try and help another from the misty grey. I see them as more insidious trying to steer people from deliverance by ranting, they may just never see and fight to keep others in the dark)
I just hope we can survive the "nasties" spewed when we try to shed some light or speculate on "what really happened". Instead of being told we are hateful, speaking for the father of lies, negative people, unforgiving, or speaking ill of the dead... (meaning the VP)
You go ahead and share your piece of the puzzle and I will mine, Ex will hers and others and hopefully some folks out there are saying, "Wow, it wasn't me. I do not have to feel bad anymore..." because folks like you are willing to take a painful event and share what happened to them. Someone may be in that very situation right now and need something to hold on to -- Dovey, you provided that for them.
You are brave to put your heart out there in the open. Thank you!
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 15, 2003 at 19:53.]
For example God didn't need to forgive us because he was angry at us. He could go
on living quite well without us.
He didn't need to relieve mental stress from thinkng about how horrible we were. He saw that we "needed" it else He and humanity weren't going to make much progress in any type of future relationship. Also note that his forgiveness is offerred with the idea that we would start a relationship with Him. It signaled a transition into a more sublime form of co-existence between us and Him.
Take your time with it and treat your forgiveness like a precious gift because it
is ,but only when its authentically presented to someone who is happy to have it.
And also we aren't God so we don't need to be giving wholesale forgiveness to people we barely know , or people long forgotten. Save it for those who need it and they will thank you for it when you give it. you'll know when they
need it.
also understand that God knew all the issues
surrounding our need for his forgiveness. He
knew just how bad off we were so his gesture
was accomplished with a full understanding of
our shortcomings. It definitely wasn't a token
gesture.
I've seen too many victims of TWI get talked
out of the examination step wherein they should be taking full account of how badly someone hurt them so they can guage that impact and
more importantly gain a knowledge of excactly what it is they are forgiving someone else for.
In this fashion it won't be a token gesture either. You and the person you are forgiving can have confidence that its the real deal.
Unfortunately there are some Way abusers who pressure others for forgiveness because they think thats a method for them to escape.
[This message was edited by diazbro on November 15, 2003 at 18:42.]
I once heard that forgiveness was a form of giving: forGIVEness, that sort of thing.
Well, since its a gift, there is, and should be NO obligation of giving it. If you want to forgive, that is ONLY up to you and God, or to you only, but sure as hell not up to anybody else.
So when any TWIt 'reproves' you to forgive and 'get over it', they are totally out to lunch, as they have no idea as to what really constitutes forgiveness; they just want their idol (VPW) to be free from being held accountable for his misdeeds. Nothing more.
quote: Well, since its a gift, there is, and should be NO obligation of giving it. If you want to forgive, that is ONLY up to you and God, or to you only, but sure as hell not up to anybody else. So when any TWIt 'reproves' you to forgive and 'get over it', they are totally out to lunch, as they have no idea as to what really constitutes forgiveness; they just want their idol (VPW) to be free from being held accountable for his misdeeds. Nothing more.
Garth, I disagree with you on this point.
If a person wants to forgive Dr. VP of his sins, how do you know that it's only because they want "their idol to be free from being held accountable.."?
You just finished saying that if you want to forgive, it is ONLY up to you and God. So if a person forgives someone, does it have to be idol worship as the motive?
I would make the general observation that I hope you agree with, that folks shouldn't be thought of as "wrong" if they fail to forgive, and similarly, folks shouldn't be thought of as "wrong" if they do decide to forgive.
quote: I would make the general observation that I hope you agree with, that folks shouldn't be thought of as "wrong" if they fail to forgive, and similarly, folks shouldn't be thought of as "wrong" if they do decide to forgive.
Thank you all for your input, it really makes me feel better to know that I don't have to forgive them, especially because they never asked me to nor would they (with the excetion
of our B.C,) even admit they were wrong in the first place.
Not one of them that slandered us from L.C.M all the way down the chain of leadership ever once called on us to hear our side of the story, they just got up in meeting of one sort or another ie twig,branch,area,state, etc. And told lies about us, and it seems like the higher the leader was the more slander was made against us, like they were making it up as they were going along,ie, adding to it.
We later heard things about us that we didn't even know lol
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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WordWolf
Humanity was outlawed in twi, since it was inefficient and takes time and
energy away from twi activities.
Besides, they didn't have anyone handy to rip off/plagiarize/"borrow from" in
terms of decent counseling skills.
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rascal
My God Dovey...what inhuman basturds. I cannot believe that they would tell you that...
What about it oldies...how is GOD gonna make up THIS injustice committed to Dovey by his supposed leaders eh? Is he going to excuse the heartless jerks masquerading as his representativess.......demanding the honor, respect, priveledges and perks due them in their status??
Twi was a horrible horrible place...
The awfull thing is...I can remember the mindset well enough to know that I probably would have been naievly nodding my head like a bobble head doll in agreement with their oh so spiritual assesment of needs in that situation...gotta just toughen up....gotta just think the word... I am SO sorry.
I have said it before...*gawd sometimes I make myself sick*
Just go wow n corpes...it`ll heal you (not to mention make our *numbers* for enrollment this year look good as well)
((((((((((((((dove))))))))))))))
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Oakspear
Whoa...
I usually don't agree with Oldies on anything, but don't you think he is getting a bum rap here?
He's not saying that God will excuse or forgive anything that TWI did, just that God will take care of an individual who was hurt deeply by them.
It's a statement about God, not TWI!
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Dot Matrix
Dovey
This is the kind of thing that rips the heart from my chest. To be in SOOOO MUCH PAIN that you could hardly breath, then having the right to grieve stolen from you by ?CHRISTIANS?. It is pitiful. So, yes I do think many who followed TWI and their moggies, were NOT working for the Lord. They were working for the devil.
Can you see Jesus say to you, don?t talk about it; do not grieve. He would open his arms and let you have a safe place to fall. He would brush the hair from your swollen red eyes, and wipe the tears as they flowed down your cheeks. He would have rocked you and let you pour out your pain. AND ?WE? as your Christian family should have behaved in like manner.
My little Dove, you cry out "why"? As long as you need to do so.
Your sweet baby boy is not allowed to be grieved for, or appropriately remembered; yet VPW is given some kind of a spiritual upgrade in death where all the evil he did magically vanishes and does not count.
He can be spoken of with adulation and his stolen work praised and the thievery of it goes unnoticed after a quick wink. Yet, an innocent child dies and we can?t even talk about how his favorite food made him smile or maybe how he loved puppies and frogs because speaking like that is WRONG.
It was a sick, twisted, spiritually perverted organization and unfortunately many are still caught in the thought patterns they tried to trap us with. If you see the truth and the truth is ?not pretty? then the person pointing it out must be ?not pretty.? (Evil, full of hatred an evildoer).
So, here you are with a giant wound for a heart and you are looked at as nuts because you lost your child.
How devilish?
I worked at a mental hospital to help mostly Alzheimer?s patients. There were tares among the wheat as well! They would send people out, recruiters to nursing homes and other places to push this ?Alzheimer?s unit? and the electric shock treatment. Which has been banned in all but I think 2 states. Georgia it is still used and Medicare pays the hospital $5,000.00 each time someone is zapped. So these tares go out among the desperate and sell the false hope treatment (IMO).
So, this one day this elderly woman is in the hospital and one of the recruiters is there. The woman and her husband had an attacker break in, beat them to a pulp, rape her and leave them for dead. Her face was so badly beaten it was difficult to tell she was a woman. Her skin was purple from the bruises; she had a broken arm and other wounds. This recruiter talked the family into committing her to the ?unit? for electric treatment to help her with depression! The head nurse, two other nurses and I were standing Christians. We prayed with patients, sang hymns and read them the Bible.
The Head nurse and I spoke at length about this. If this woman was NOT depressed it would be unhealthy. She was right where she needed to be mentally, yet these recruiters had her family stick her in this facility. One of the nurses, with risk to her own job, talked her family into getting her grief counseling, not to stick her in a mental ward with electric shock treatments!
This treatment reminds me of what happened to you. I am so sorry. If you were not distraught, there would have been something wrong with you. You were normal to be grieving over your baby. They are the abnormal ones. (IMO)
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 14, 2003 at 13:21.]
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Dot Matrix
Oak
I think Rascal's comment to Oldies is one that has been made over pages.
I do not think she means to make it sound like that.
I maybe wrong, but I think she is stringing together a point she has been trying to make to him on pages here and many other threads, that TWI-1/VPW does not deserve the loyality he gives TWI-1 and VP.
It comes from what may be perceived as a cavalier attitude toward anything bad VPW did, like ?Oh well, God will make it up to them.?
I believe her remarks are why should GOD have to make it up? Why did they DO it to begin with?
The Oldies attitude seems to be like if we do not look at it, it did not happen!
Or even if it happened, well God will make it up to them.
She is saying let's not excuse it because it is uncomfortable, let's get it out from under the rug and deal with things. I think she is saying to make a statement like "God will make it up to them", is minimizing the things TWI-1 and VPW did to people.
God probably will help them, or make it up to them, but what I believe her point is, WHY should God have to make it up, we should not be behaving like that to begin with. Rascal has a problem with the behavior of VPW, TWI and the leaders who hurt people.
It seems sometimes that Oldies does not have a problem with THEIR BEHAVIOR or that he minimizes the heart wrenching affects of that behavior by comments like "God will make it up." It was not rape it was adultery, it was not really plagerism they just look real close.
Different approaches.
It seems it is the ?attitude? towards BEHAVIOR that she is addressing.
Rascal am I wrong? If so, I apologize. Just how I took it.
(Olds made a comment about God making things up to Leonard in heaven or something, anyway it was a point she has presented prior, sitting here alone it may look unfair to Oldies but it has been commentary between them for awhile)
Oak, you know what I like about you? You try to be fair whether you agree or disagree with a person. It speaks highly of you.
((((Oak))))) (((Rascal))) ((((Dovey))))
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 14, 2003 at 14:12.]
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rascal
Dear Dot...thankyou for clarifying things that I ddid not articulate very well myself...
Thank you oak as well, I do not intend to be unfair to anybody.... (note to self DON`T post before first cup of coffee in the am anymore)
I was just stewing over how twi lovers on other pages and threads seem to want to say that it`s ok that these things happened...cause God will *make it up* to them somehow...... mean time praise God for twi/vpw...we learned some *word*
I think this attitude can still be a way of deceiving ourselves to the enormity of the evil manifested and horrors endured at vpw/twi`s hands...
Sorry I singled you out oldies... you are kind of taking it on the chin for all of the supporters that ever made me mad...lol I apologise.......I come out more abrasive than I intend to...I was upset over hearing about yet another horror endured by one of our dear friends....sigh.
Believe it or not it`s your ideas that I am attempting to examine, not attack you....personal assaults are always out of line.
My apologies.......
Cathy
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oldiesman
Cathy, no problem at all, thx for the apology but it's really not necessary; I realize these issues can be upsetting...
Thx for the support, Oaks...
Have a great weekend...
Love,
Oldies
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CircleGame
((((((((((whytedove))))))))))))))))
A good book to read might be "Sorrow" by Norman Vincent Peale. I find that he is good to read sometimes. A Christian who promoted positive believing but did not have a narrow, rigid, controlling ministry. He didn't have any ministry save for his church in NYC, he wrote books so people could be blessed reading his books from their homes, not having to make "commitments" and saying TWI alone has the truth.
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wyteduv58
Dear friends, I did not mean to start an arguement. I just got so mad at something I read, that I really needed to vent. It was probably a long time coming for me and I too on occasion make excuses for what they did to me and others.
But I now (I think) realize that they can't make anything up to me so maybe I should just let it go, but that is really hard to do. Yes I can probably forgive them, but they never apologized to me in the first place and secondly even if I forgive them how can I forget too?
Can they give me the years back that they took from me? No
Can they give me my son back? no
Can they resore our good names that they lied about and destroyed? no
Has any leader ever apologized for the lies? Yes one our B.C. Left twi and found our e-ail address and e-mailed an apologized to us for going along with the lies they told and the hurt they caused.
Did we forgive him? YES
Can we forget too? No
How do you forget your own son and what they did to first rob me of the greiving we needed to go thru, then years later trash our lives like we were something less than human and our lives didn't mean a thing to them.
I hate the expression forgive and forget because even though you can forgive anything you can't forget some things and I don't ever want to forget my son. I want to remember him and the 10 precious years I had him. The rest of the stuff they did to us I try not to dwell on too much, but it is still there in our background, but I did learn a lesson from them. STAY THE H#LL OUT OF CULTS.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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wyteduv58
oopS HIT THE WRONG BUTTON. now to continue......... They fooled us once.....shame on them.......If I get fooled again then shame on me.
Once again thank you all for your love and support I don't know what I would have done if it hadn't been for waydale and greasespot cafe. I love you all. Love Dovey
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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excathedra
you are fine my dearest dovey
don't forget
i can't forget
sometimes i recognize forgiveness but i never stress over it
i love you so much
you did not a thing wrong here
2many hugs and kisses to type out
?
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excathedra
just saw your second post
thank YOU for your love and support !!!!
?
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wyteduv58
My dear, dear, Exxie.......You are just wonderful do you know that?
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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excathedra
thank you, my sweet soul friend
?
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Dot Matrix
Dovey
You need never forget. God had people's mistakes recorded for all time.
You do not need to forget what they did to you.
Forgiveness will happen in its time, when you can handle it. It will happen after the anger, and boy I would have a lot of anger after what happened to you.
It will all happen in its time. I HATE when people tell me to FORGIVE and I am not ready, or the perp did not aske for forgiveness. Hate it! And if you never forgive them that is your business.
If it happens, it will happen when it should.
Once I was so angry at a person who took my money without asking and gambled it ALL away in 24 hours. It was all I had.
I cannot tell you how mad I was.
I held on to it for a long time, until it was time to let it go. Then, I walked up to the person and said "I forgive you. For all of it."
He NEVER asked but rather justified his position with yelling and demeaning me...
But when it was time, and I said what I said because I had gotten to that place, (nobody can push someone into it, and when they try it just has ya get mad at them as well.) it was great. Including the shocked look on his mug. Funny, he was still an A-hole, but I was better for it.
Now, for those that think I should do that with others, who is to say I haven't? (Or if I haven't that is really nobody's business but mine and God's) I can still report to you that someone stole my money and gambled it, to share an account of my life.... And in the sharing it does not mean I hate or have not forgiven, it is a true reporting of an incident.
And that incident woke me up to protecting myself. As Dr. Phil says the best predictor of future events is the past history with a person.
Other people no longer have access to my funds.
Thus, I reported incidents in TWI as well, and how I FEEL about things and conclusions I have made to let certain loyalities to people go and be aware that even the most genuine searcher for God's heart can get tricked or fooled.
But after one does wake up they do want to help others out of the fog and that is not a bad thing. Just some people like foggy weather and don't want to hear, or to know, or to see. Their choice or their right to carry on as usual. (Others actually get angry if you try and help another from the misty grey. I see them as more insidious trying to steer people from deliverance by ranting, they may just never see and fight to keep others in the dark)
I just hope we can survive the "nasties" spewed when we try to shed some light or speculate on "what really happened". Instead of being told we are hateful, speaking for the father of lies, negative people, unforgiving, or speaking ill of the dead... (meaning the VP)
You go ahead and share your piece of the puzzle and I will mine, Ex will hers and others and hopefully some folks out there are saying, "Wow, it wasn't me. I do not have to feel bad anymore..." because folks like you are willing to take a painful event and share what happened to them. Someone may be in that very situation right now and need something to hold on to -- Dovey, you provided that for them.
You are brave to put your heart out there in the open. Thank you!
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 15, 2003 at 19:53.]
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wyteduv58
Oh Dot thank you for that, you made my day dear Dot and Exxie and all of you dear friends in here.
If sharing myself in this way can help one person then its worth it.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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diazbro
speaking in general..
I like to think that forgiveness is something
you offer from a position of power and choice.
I really believe that you should forgive
someone only when THEY need it.
For example God didn't need to forgive us because he was angry at us. He could go
on living quite well without us.
He didn't need to relieve mental stress from thinkng about how horrible we were. He saw that we "needed" it else He and humanity weren't going to make much progress in any type of future relationship. Also note that his forgiveness is offerred with the idea that we would start a relationship with Him. It signaled a transition into a more sublime form of co-existence between us and Him.
Take your time with it and treat your forgiveness like a precious gift because it
is ,but only when its authentically presented to someone who is happy to have it.
And also we aren't God so we don't need to be giving wholesale forgiveness to people we barely know , or people long forgotten. Save it for those who need it and they will thank you for it when you give it. you'll know when they
need it.
also understand that God knew all the issues
surrounding our need for his forgiveness. He
knew just how bad off we were so his gesture
was accomplished with a full understanding of
our shortcomings. It definitely wasn't a token
gesture.
I've seen too many victims of TWI get talked
out of the examination step wherein they should be taking full account of how badly someone hurt them so they can guage that impact and
more importantly gain a knowledge of excactly what it is they are forgiving someone else for.
In this fashion it won't be a token gesture either. You and the person you are forgiving can have confidence that its the real deal.
Unfortunately there are some Way abusers who pressure others for forgiveness because they think thats a method for them to escape.
[This message was edited by diazbro on November 15, 2003 at 18:42.]
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GarthP2000
I once heard that forgiveness was a form of giving: forGIVEness, that sort of thing.
Well, since its a gift, there is, and should be NO obligation of giving it. If you want to forgive, that is ONLY up to you and God, or to you only, but sure as hell not up to anybody else.
So when any TWIt 'reproves' you to forgive and 'get over it', they are totally out to lunch, as they have no idea as to what really constitutes forgiveness; they just want their idol (VPW) to be free from being held accountable for his misdeeds. Nothing more.
Such in-duh-viduals are to be ignored.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Dot Matrix
diazbro
I loved what you said about forgiveness, I loved your whole post and I especially liked:
Diazbro- Your whole post was pure genius to me. Very well said and dripping with heart.
Garth - you are too cute!
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 15, 2003 at 19:54.]
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Steve!
and if God HAD to forgive you, what would that be worth?
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oldiesman
Garth said:
Garth, I disagree with you on this point.
If a person wants to forgive Dr. VP of his sins, how do you know that it's only because they want "their idol to be free from being held accountable.."?
You just finished saying that if you want to forgive, it is ONLY up to you and God. So if a person forgives someone, does it have to be idol worship as the motive?
I would make the general observation that I hope you agree with, that folks shouldn't be thought of as "wrong" if they fail to forgive, and similarly, folks shouldn't be thought of as "wrong" if they do decide to forgive.
That seems fair...
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GarthP2000
That's a much better approach.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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wyteduv58
diazbro,Dot,Steve,Garth,Oldiesman,
Thank you all for your input, it really makes me feel better to know that I don't have to forgive them, especially because they never asked me to nor would they (with the excetion
of our B.C,) even admit they were wrong in the first place.
Not one of them that slandered us from L.C.M all the way down the chain of leadership ever once called on us to hear our side of the story, they just got up in meeting of one sort or another ie twig,branch,area,state, etc. And told lies about us, and it seems like the higher the leader was the more slander was made against us, like they were making it up as they were going along,ie, adding to it.
We later heard things about us that we didn't even know lol
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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wyteduv58
OK year2027 Moving go go go
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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