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TWI/MUSIC/"WAY PROD EARLY DAYS"/THE BEAT GOES ON/ETC.....


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Thoughts pertaining to our youth seem to just want to hang around these days for me.

In a thread of James French?s he brought up music in regards to spiritual matters. But with other issues being considered it was lost, even after I posted to him directly. So thought I would start a new thread.

We were encouraged by our twi leadership to put some restraints on what our children could listen to in regards to music. (as well as movies, but another issue) I myself never paid much attention to their suggestions as having been a music lover myself I knew I would be hard pressed to ask my son not to listen to whatever he chose to. It was a part of his life, having been raised under my roof, to be introduced to music. He was driven home from the hospital in a car in Philly at birth with Led Zeppelin cranked up, and I never allowed anyone to be quite while he was asleep. Bad way to start out with a newborn.

It was not encouraged to great length by LCM, as best I remember due to the fact he was passionate about rock and grunge music himself. Favorites being Stone Temple Pilots and Metallica. But it was by those under his authority.

What do yall think?

Do you think today?s music can be harmful for our youth in regards to sound spiritual thinking?

I know that twi holds that what you take in you will ultimately give out. But they were not allowing for a proper mix of both allowance of our youth to be just that "youth" and the necessary oversight of those children of ours.

Will be gone most of the day, but if anyone is interested I sure would love your thoughts on this.

Kathy

QQ, in this post is the clue to the riddle I proposed to you should you read this post and have any interest.

~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~

EDITED TO ADD THIS: this thread has taken on far more than I ever imagined it would, thus I have altered the name to reflect more of it's content.

[This message was edited by ChattyKathy on December 21, 2002 at 18:27.]

[This message was edited by pawtucket on May 26, 2003 at 13:23.]

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Perhaps too much emphasis is given on how much music can influence and even control our lives.

Like when you have people blaming rap or punk music for violent behaviors and such. True, music does have an influence on us (as per the adage of "music hath charms that sooth the savage beast" and such), but to go to the extent of actually and directly controlling our actions? Or that, while listening to raunch n roll, a few spirit beings slip into the ol brain, and *BAM* we are in need of an exorcist? Pea green soup anybody?

Or, as according to that book, "Marxist Ministrels" seemingly illustrates, listening to the Beatles can morph one's political views from 50's style "Leave it to Beaver" Republicanism all the way to "Workers of the World Unite!" Marxism?

I've actually listened to that song Revolution by the Beatles, and it actually *mocks* Communism. Listen to the words where it talks about Mao, redistribution, and the like. Real believers of Communism wouldn't ridicule their political faith like that. Not east of the then Iron Curtain and still live, you didn't.

And I'm not even mentioning the highly implausible connection between music and ... 'mind control'. Yahh! Right!!

Anywho, there is my 'expertise' on the matter. Wanna see my credentials?

Prophet Emeritus of THE,

and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,

Garth P.

[This message was edited by GarthP2000 on November 23, 2002 at 11:33.]

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Well dad burn it Kathy your post has drawn me out of my somewhat GS seclusion.I stiil think your photo looks like a little angel only thing missing is a halo round your head.

Garth you hit the nail on the head and bring up some very good points about how yesterdays or todays music has postive or negative influence on us all as kids or adults in a way we are all still kids just got bigger that's all.

And now to the subject matter at hand.First of all lets go back in time and look at the history of pop music in the good ol'e USA

In the early ninteen hundreds ragtime was the craze and by some considered to be devilish there was a ragtime pianist named Jelly Roll Morton who did a song called Jelly Roll Blues and for those of you who do not know what the lyrics were about let me assure you it's not about what you would buy at your local bakery. Than the roaring twenties rolls in and lo and behold the kids start doing The Charleston, The Black Bottom and other perverted dances. Mom's and Dad's just shook their heads in dissgust. These dances they said were out of line and were causing the kids to go to hell in a hand basket During that time proabition became the law which did not help much cause the booze continued to flow like water The flapper ladies Shook It Like Their Sister Kate and sang I'm In My Sin So Bring Me My Gin (hic)Now we are up to the thirties and because of the great depression songs of hope for a better day were sung such as Sunny Side Of The Street and Pennies From Heaven during that time ther were also some pretty suggestive songs too like Making Whoopee and Let's Do It the lyrics said Bees Do It Birds Do It Even Jelly Fish Do It So Let's Do It Let's Fall In Love...well at least before they did it back then they should be in love first.

Now we are entering the forties and because this is going to be a pretty lenghty post will end this portion of the program and if you all would like I will continue later.

Thanks for letting me share.

Your GS Buddy

Ted F.

[This message was edited by TED Ferrell on November 23, 2002 at 11:28.]

[This message was edited by TED Ferrell on November 23, 2002 at 11:46.]

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Ya know, I didn't even realize that much about the music back during the 20's thru 40's, since a lot of the music folks know nowadays range from the late 50's forward. But its true! Parents back since time immemorial have been lamenting about what and how their kids are growing up and what influences are guiding their lives.

Now Ted is one dude who knows quite a bit about God's Word in Culture, it seems.

Prophet Emeritus of THE,

and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,

Garth P.

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Garth P.

Your post reminded me to say one other thing about prev. post and that is what most preachers preached about music in those days and it was mostly negative Take for instance Billy Sunday was a hell fire and brimstone preacher who preached about the sins of alcohol and how the youth of the nation were being corupted by the god afwul music they sang, danced (dancing was a sin big time) and listened to.The gospel music songs of those days were mostly hymn style with the exceptation of the black culture who sang lamenting soulful songs which was the begining of what we call the blues.Thanks Garth for reminding me about the word in culture thing.

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Hi act2 and thank you for your comment about me.Did I pay you enough to say that.ha1 ha! only kidding.

The reason I am going back in time about pop music in our culture is to set the stage for a conclusion and as we go along here when we get to your area of music please jump right in there with your imput cause their ain't no way I know it all.

Towards the end of the thirties and overlaped into the forties the big band sound emerged and most people thought it was OK.But the forties culture was faced with yet another problem from the kids It was called boogie woogie and that crazy dance they did named the jitterbug oh! my the parents wailed what is this world coming to and how about this skinny kid from Hoboken NJ that as he sings the young girls swoon and faintin the aisle's. What is about this crooner anyway they asked The guys hated him cause he was stealing away the ladies hearts. His name was Frank Sinatra Another thing happened in the forties that changed the complexion of music listened to and that was world war two.The popular songs of the day were more melancholy and patrotic but as the war came to an end it was back to biz. as usual. I was just a kid then but begin to be very aware of the music around me and after much pleading with my folks they bought me an old wind up victrola that played 78 rpm and I begin to collect records with a vengance.I spent all my allowance and whatever I could beg borrow or steal to get the latest hits.While collecting I ran across a sound I had never heard before it was called race music only blacks listened to that kind of junk some told me but I loved that sound and when rock and roll came along in the fifties I knew I'd heard that sound before and when critics said that crap will never last.I thought well lets just wait and see.And from the forties we shall move on to feel the beat that shook the world and changed pop music forever Southern.Gospel quqrtet's were becoming quite popular too with the church set and as we go along here you will see this make it's way into twi.

I am in no way a great writer so all of you please bare with me as I try to tell the story af the why's and therfore's about pop music and the outrage caused by some of it down through the years.

Kathy it's all your fault you got me into this mess by starting this thread that I could not resist posting on but wiill forgive you if you promise not to do it again ha! ha! Kath your the best.

Thanks again everbody for putting up with me

Next we hit the fifties and that's when the s--- really starts to hit the fan.

Love To All

Ted F.

[This message was edited by TED Ferrell on November 23, 2002 at 16:01.]

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Ted,

Please come back and tell us more, please. But then being the angel I am (LOL ) it would only be polite to ask you to return. You are so kind, but I assure you I am no angel.

So what you are saying is that music has always had its share of criticism regarding its influence on our youth. And in today?s world those songs of yesterday seem pretty mild in comparison.

Being tied into the things of today?s culture would explain the dark and hatred based lyrics of some music looking at it through that filter of understanding. But do you think it possible that the youth of today have more of a drive to identify with the lyrics? Or is that also similar to every stage of music development?

What are your thoughts on kids being able to enjoy even this dark music, if mixed with other forms of music and overseen by parents? That is something I saw while in twi, not allowing youth to partake of some forms of worldly music. During you time with twi did you see that mindset?

Okay, I know I am asking ya a load of questions here, but heck I would be nuts not to. You have a lifetime of experience to offer here.

Thank you so very much for joining in on this thread. I am honored.

Garth,

Very cool point on God's Word in culture. Very interesting, as much as I love music I haven't really considered that.

act2,

I'm with you, fond memories. Now all we need is some refreshments and just sit back and enjoy Ted's stories.

Kathy

(Ted, see we were posting at the same time, cool)

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Funny you mentioned TWI and music.

When my oldest was born, his dad told me I could no longer listen to anything but Ministry music when I was around him (which was all the time). I love music, it is very much a part of my life and self-expression. Ministry music never did appeal to me much.

We went rounds on this issue, ultimately to leadership, who backed him up. Turned out my twig coordinator had once pulled a similar stunt with his wife.

Ok, regards music, tv, influence on kids.

My kids are 3 and 5, so I definitely do some censoring of what they see and listen to because they are not old enough to process the information and discuss it with any logic or understanding.

As they get older, they will have more and more freedom to choose what they watch and listen to. I figure by the time they are pre-teens and most certainly teens, it will largely be up to them to choose what they want to watch and listen to. However, as a parent who wants to be involved in their lives, I will likewise watch and listen to what they are taking in. This way, if I feel it necessary, we can sit down and talk about the messages sent through the things they are viewing and listening to.

Can music have a negative influence on kids? Sure, I suppose most anything can. What makes the difference is not censorship, but parent participation.

p.s.....babies don't understand the lyrics to songs, so listening to Led Zepplin isn't going to harm a baby. Studies show they prefer the rhythm of rap though.

p.s.s....nothing wrong with teaching a baby to sleep through the daily noise of living.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

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Abi,

Love your post, you said it so much better than I could have. Thanks!

That parential oversight is of major importance. And the point of censorship of what they can not understand is very important. As you stated, while too young.

Yea, I know my son had no clue at birth what Plant was cranking on about. Haha, but today that son of mine (bragging time here) has a voice many would envy. Just awesome!!!!! And he has a rounded love of all types of music. Even does DJ work in California on the weekends, just became a part of his life from that Ledd playing while he was coming from the hospital. Heehee

Cool that you agree about not walking around all quietly when the baby is asleep, geez I have gone in folks homes and the infant rules the roost already. Not good, nada, not good.

So you saw what I was saying, this only allowing certain music. Just can't see how that can be the best for our youth. Music is the sounds of life.

Gosh, I am having a blast in this thread, and can't wait for more stories from Ted. Yippeeeeeee

Gotta attend to dinner, be back a bit later on.

Kathy

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Garth.......... you listened to the Beetle?s Revolution to the point you know the words??????

Hang on we have an old priest and the young one will be right over after boys choir practice so we can get the exorcism going.......

But you did bring up the controversy surrounding and being debated about Rap music. Right here in *River City* we have trouble and starts with T which rhymes P. Sorry...... got carried away there. But, there as been very violent incidents after 2 Rap concerts in our *Twin City* right across the river here.

Now many groups, including some rock&roll stations and DJs are all asking what is up with Rap and the Rap crowd. Many are advocating the stopping and outlawing of this type of music and performances. So I had to stop and ask the proverbial question which came first, the chicken or the egg..........OOOOPPPPS The devilishness of a certain segment, or subculture if you will; or the music they listen to??????

Looking back was it the Rock&Roll music, viva the revolution!!!!!!!! that impacted my life and turned me into the screaming liberal, anti-establishment teen socialist I was???? Or was it the rebellion from the religion I was raised in and also against the civil wrongs I saw being fought against and the fear of going to a meaningless war to die for a country that didn?t seem to care about its citizens????

My conclusion right now it was the LSD used in rebellion to the LDS and the endless hours of use of only the finest products available from my local pusher. Better life through chemicals and herbs was my life, turn on and tune out!!!!!!! DAMN THE MAN The revolution music was a bi-product of the time and the age. That is what I am thinking the Rap music is, the bi-product of a subculture in our society that lives by different standards than what I ever knew; where gangsters and drugs and all sorts of illegal activities seem to be the norm. Compared to what I grew-up in there are parallels, but there are also extremes they seem to have gone to.

I think Ted has made some very fine points and hope to read more about music in history in this country. Maybe there is something to that what we put our parents through are kids will do worse to us................... But I think that there in also is the solution to a majority of the ethical and moral problems that seem to plague each generation as they go through puberty and experiment with life and sex...............dang good solid parents loving them and guiding them through it all. Not suffocating and over controlling; just always there for them especially when they take off on a weird tangent in life.

Rambling I know, but I don?t think the music has as much of a determination on the final product as does the enviroment and the parents........

Grizzy COLOR>SIZE>

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I agree with you Grizzy on the parent thing. Parents who love their children and teach them the best they know how mostly IMO have children who grow up to be good citizens and are good to their parents later in life.

We couldnt hardly have the radio or stereo on in our home, growing up. Therefore, IMO, I dont care for a whole lot of noise (be it music, TV, lots of people talking, etc.). I think our childhood has lots to do with our adult life, be it music, employment, good or bad credit, going to church or something similar, and on and on.

When you are raised properly, those standards will pay off in the long run.

I was a teenager in the 70's and listened to Rod Stewart, Eagles, Leonard Skinnard (sp), Rolling Stones, Bad Company, Marshall Tucker Band, Steve Miller Band, etc. I knew when words in songs spoke of things that were wrong according to my upbringing. I made the choice to listen and DO what they said, or to say NO! BUT I had been TAUGHT the truth by parents who loved me.

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Abigail you are so right on about being a part of what your children might be listening too or looking at..That is true parenting and I know you would be fair and just.I applaud you for that.

Meanwhile back at the ranch towards the end of the forties there was a five piece group called Louis Jordan and His Tympani Five.He was a black man and to me he was the father of the early rock and roll sound of the fifties..He was on most every juke box cross the land and for the first time red necked white people even liked that rocki'n black sound..As the fifties rolled in still so much of the music was the big band sound and your Sat Night Hit Parade Show on radio.Another strange thing happened gospel tunes became major hits songs such as It Is No Secret.This Old House.,Have You Talked To The Man Upstairs and a few more..Pretty mellow time right then.In 1953 and 1954 a white band out of Texas started having hits it was Bill Haley and The Comets.By then I was living in Cleveland and every night tuned in to WDOK to the Moondog Show hosted by the man who termed rock and roll Alan Freed.He played black RnB along with what the white folk were putting out and hw would say "Man are we gonna rock and roll tonight.And that is why The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame is here in Cleveland.If any of you ever come to Cleveland I would be happy to take you there as my guest. So here I am in Cleveland listening and dreaming about how I would like to get involved with this new music scene So I started a three piece and even though I was underage stared playing in the clubs around town with a fake id in hand. As this rock and roll music began to catch on people started to get all hot and bothered about it and felt it was a threat to society and were gonna stomp it out.Well the kids said no way and rebeled aginst their parents family and church.and kept right on a rocking and a rolling.Chuck Berry helped them do that too.So now we hit 1955 and 1956 as Elvis makes his first showing and man you would not believe the fury he caused.I met Elvis twice and in my next thread will share with you that story.He was a good man but just got tricked at the end. More about the fifties later so See You Later Alligator.

Hope I am not boring you all with this stuff but there will be an ending between now and The Lord's Return.I hope.

Love To All

Ted F.

[This message was edited by TED Ferrell on November 23, 2002 at 17:51.]

[This message was edited by TED Ferrell on November 23, 2002 at 18:08.]

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Perhaps not to be overlooked in this discussion is the riot caused in a Paris theater in 1913, by the performance of the music and ballet of Igor Stravinsky's "The Rite of Spring", which employed a heavy rythmic foundation. I imagine the subject matter (concerning the sacrifice of a virgin in a Pagan spring festival) was strong stuff for the times as well.

My only bone to pick with the pop music industry nowadays has more to do with how much more "image" intensive it seems to have become,

rather than the promoting of works by those with any real musical talent. In other words, various celebrities come across more as models than genuine composers and musicians. I suppose the industry has always been that way to some degree

(think the Monkees). It just impresses me as more blatant nowadays, and perhaps that's the natural direction it's gone toward with the advent of music video stations like MTV and VH1.

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Grizzy,

Know you are talking to Garth, but heck when did that ever stop me.

Better make sure that old priest don't also know the words to the Beatle's Revolution.

Would think to outlaw Rap would only incite to more violence by that same crowd. Can't outlaw music, that can't be the way to go. As much as I can't stand Rap, heck I would hate to see it censored. These kids need that stuff like we needed our flavor of music at their age. BUT where are the parents? Is there no one paying attention to the extremes these kids have gone to I wonder.

Grizzy, I too got a tad bit anti-establishment minded, but my avenue was the flower child direction. Geezz, I would walk around parks while familes were trying to have a nice family picnic and hand them a flower. LMAO Thank God we are only teens one go around. Haha

Okay, I will shut up now, just too much fun for one person I am having with yall's posting.

Kathy

(okay hubby was talking to me while in post mode and bunches of you got in there, better get to the reading of it)

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TheInvisibleDan,

Video killed the radio star! I want my MTV! Money for nothing, chicks for free!

Oops just got carried away there.

Ted,

You boring, gosh almighty I feel like a dadgum kid in a candy store. You are a storehouse of value. Did I tell you thank you yet for posting here?

Kathy

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When I was in jr high I came home from school early one day and the curtains were closed, hmmm. I go inside and my mom had Benny Goodman cranked up LOUD with the vacuum in the middle of the living room floor as a pretend partner and she's jitterbugging with it. Gettin' 'jitty' with it! Bad. Then she saw me and got all embarrassed, but I thought that was cool. Even into her 70's she would drive all the way from Grand Rapids, MI to Davenport, IA for this Bix Beiderbeck jazz show every summer.

She wasn't quite as cool about rock and roll, though. In 1966 I was watching the Stones do 'Let's spend the night together' on the Shindig TV show and she comes running in there saying Mick Jagger is an ANIMAL!!! Bless her heart; Eric Burden was the animals' lead singer. How silly!

I think 60's rock and roll DID indirectly lead to my doing drugs, but I still like it. They were my heroes. They seemed like they were more honest than the other adults I heard talk. Foolish notion, but I bought it.

Music gets people excited. That's a good thing. The other stuff is just baggage.

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Music is a very large part of my life. Ask anyone who knows me. My children are the ones usually saying, "Mom, turn down the music!?

I can?t walk into a store without singing to the music. I have even asked a clerk once to change the music because I was so distracted by it and couldn?t shop in the store. (daughter?s most embarrassing moment #102).

All my life I have loved music. It is a passion with me. My parents were self-taught musicians and I had a sister who sang professionally.

I listened to a wide variety of music growing up.

When I was in TWI, nothing, NOTHING, drove me more insane than having to listen to only TWI music.

I remember when I was in the corps, the first 4 months we were not allowed to listen to any 'secular' music. Well, you can just imagine. Shoving bamboo shoots up my nails would have maybe been a more pleasant experience. I remember once being in my room by myself and I put on someone's clock radio so I could here some tunes. A senior corps person came in and heard the music. She said,? You?re listening to music. You know, you're not supposed to be listening to that." I said, "I know". A little while later, I was hauled into Corps coordinator's wife's office. Reproof session #36.

I always knew I had to marry someone who was crazy about music just as much as me. I married a musician. Classically trained though. His favourites are, Classical and jazz.

I am firm believer in exposing children to lots of different music. And many times, it?s stuff they don?t necessarily hear on the radio either. If they have been exposed to good music that is well produced, as they get older, I believe they will be able to distinguish between good and not so good music.

I believe music is one of the most powerful art forms and when it is done well, can be almost like having ?God in your living room?.

Another thing that has helped my children are music lessons. We are not rich by any means, but we have always felt it was a priority for our children to have a basis in music education.

I think it is stifling to say ?ONLY TWI MUSIC ALLOWED?. So much music out there that is truly inspired.

'til the next time...

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johniam,

Fun account there about your mom, Benny Goodman and the vacuum.

Would agree the 60's music lead to drugs, maybe like the booze consumed during that earlier music.

Music gets people excited, a good thing. Yepper.

That was a part of twi fellowships that I thought was pretty sweet, the music but with some variety of songs needed. Not the same ole few we all knew so well. I liked singing ones not in the book, older tunes we all knew by heart.

Kathy

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joniam loved that story about your Mom I can just see her now dancing round the room with the vac.

Ah! yes so from out of the blue here comes Elvis. but first let me share another story.In late 1957 I was playing at The Julep Lounge in Louisville Ky.and we splt sets with other acts booked there thirty minutes on thirty minutes off Well one week while there this young kid shows up that has been booked there and I intro him and he goes on to do his first set.He played piano and sang jazz standards had a good voice but only new nine songs so he repeated one or two before he came off.After our set I brought him on again and he repeated the same nine songs.Well we were doing the latest rock and roll hits and had a vast repitore.At the end of the night the owner of the club asks me what do you think of this kid.I replied oh he will do fine.The boss said don't think so he ain't got enough tunes in his bag to do this gig.I just said give the kid a chance.Invited him out to breakfast and he was very thankful for that since he did not have hadly a dime in his pocket's I was pretty flush at the time so I gave him fifty bucks to tide him over.I told him to come over to the club the next day so we could help expand his song list.Well he learned a few more songs and was able to finish out the week.While we going over songs to learn he asked me so Ted do you think that rock and roll is here to stay.I told him yes.A few months later he had a hit called Splish Splash His name was Bobby Darin and until his death I heard from him now and then and he always thanked me for kindness shown.

About Elvis I will post next.Think I may be getting a little worn out on typing as I am not to swift at that just a hunt and pecker and sometimes my spelling is not to hot either

Ted F.

[This message was edited by TED Ferrell on November 23, 2002 at 19:11.]

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A la prochaine,

Bamboo shoots up your nails. Ouch. But I agree, the lack of secular music allowed that first block of in-rez was pure torture.

Except for the same ole songs sang over and over again I enjoyed twi music. Way Prod especially, it was for that I was able to keep making those treaks to hq during the last few years. Always touched my heart to hear the music.

Merci mon ami,

Kathy

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I remember reading about a riot caused at the opening performance of Ravel's "Bolero". It's a rather earthy thing that is just a theme repeated over and over and over by different instruments and a kind of heavy rhythm. I think it, too, occurred in Paris.

Teds posts are especially interesting to me as I'm a big fan of all kinds of American popular music dating all the way back to the early 1800's.

My personal favorites that I enjoy are classical, dixieland jazz, Celtic folk and some other more esoteric stuff.

I guess I'm probably the ONLY person in America, quite possibly the world, who equally enjoys driving while listening to my tapes of Karl King circus marches, Louis Armstrong, The Firehouse 5, Charlotte Church, The Altans or Maynard Ferguson.

I personally can't see any reason to think any particular kind of music, in and of itself, has any "spiritual" effect on an individual outside of whatever that individual makes of it themselves. In other words, I thought those teachings from TWI were just plain silly.

The Beatles with their curvaceous melodies and their unique chord changes had no more effect on any listener than the tunes of Cab Calloway, and their lyrics were far more "innocent" (remember "Minnie the Moocher"?)

I remember as a kid seeing the wildly gyrating Elvis Presley (billed as "Elvis the Pelvis"....he toned it down quite a bit shortly after) at the Texas State Fair in 1956. The music he performed was no more "wild" than that of Hank Williams Sr. just a few years earlier.

One interesting thing is, for all the hoopla at the time, ragtime (which I enjoy immensely) is quite possibly the most highly structured and tedious genre of music to perform.

Okay....enough of my rambling.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread.

******************************

csa_3rdnat.gif

DEO VINDICE!!

Ron G.

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Ron G,

quote:
I personally can't see any reason to think any particular kind of music, in and of itself, has any "spiritual" effect on an individual outside of whatever that individual makes of it themselves. In other words, I thought those teachings from TWI were just plain silly.


When I first started this thread which seems like a lifetime ago based on the awesome trip down music lane I was not real clear, still kinda held some reservation that this real dark stuff was not healthy. But now feel with proper oversight of our youth they should be able to ferret thru it and grow up, maybe never to even like the stuff once a bit matured.

Dan that can not be seen,

Yep ain't that a kick in the butt.

One of the first videos on MTV that I loved was Rock the Kasbahl (know I have killed that spelling), but remember the armadillo running around. I don't know why but I loved that dadgum video.

Kathy

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