Thankyou fortunate one.... I am so turned off by the whole abuse mess that we endured in the name of submission in and out of twi...I finally told my husband recently that I don`t think I want my daughters to even marry christian men.
I know I know, that is a horrible thing to say and he was very upset with me...but think about it...I do not want my daughters to ever feel honor bound as a christian to be required to submit to someone just because of their gender.....
Too many times I was forced to shut up and abide by my husbands choices.
The frustration of having my imput constantly ignored, and watching our family suffer the consequences of foolish choices .....having to ask permission for everything....having to submit each request for money for groceries to the humiliation of having him decide if it was necessary....like I was some kind of child is enough to drive one mad....
I don`t do it anymore, but I can tell that my spouse can still be intensly disaproving of my *independance*.
I agree with you in one aspect, early on, and at high leadership levels of twi, the women were pulling the strings behind the scene, as evidenced by donna m and rfr.
FOR THE MOST PART, the average not leadership family/couple, the women were NOT IN CHARGE.
Oldies, you must honestly face that fact that you don't have a clue as to what really happened day to day in twi in the 90s and currently. Lcm blamed 80% of the fog year problems on the wives of leadership...dragging their husbands out by the b***s. As of 1990....a WHOLE NEW CONCEPT was enforced regarding twi followers and marriage.
TWI doctrine became exactly what you have read...the man was the head, the woman was subservient, and her entire spiritual welfare was dependent on her submitting herself to her husband's "covering." To go outside of his "covering" would lead to horrible calamity and possible death. You may or may not believe that was the teaching...but it was.
I distinctly remember when a young mother of an infant caused a fatal car accident down on 66 on the way to St. Marys. The husband worked in the auto shop...she had gone to town WITHOUT her husband's permission, and alone....in other words, not 2x2. She pulled out in front of a truck and the other driver was killed.
Of course, the entire incident was the subject of corps and staff and lunch meetings. The reason the poor man was killed, was because the wife was out of fellowship with God...for not asking her husband for permission to go to KMart in St Marys.
It was bad folks.......Oldies.....take a break man, you are out of your knowledge zone on this one.
Rascal, Ladies......OBSERVE AND LISTEN FROM THE MASTER!!! :D-->
OM, if you have read some of these current marriage threads, you will see that the discussion is just about 100% about TWI2 up to the present day. I know it is hard to believe but 1990.....was 15 YEARS AGO.
The time frame of doctrines is vital to understanding the true nature of twi. It changed like a chameleon to control it's followers to the absolute maximum.
I am so turned off by the whole abuse mess that we endured in the name of submission in and out of twi...I finally told my husband recently that I don`t think I want my daughters to even marry christian men.
Yup, I've thought about that alot. In fact, this was a major issue for me leaving Christianity entirely.
My husband was never abusive or domineering, but I had seen other marriages where the husband was not like mine, and the misery those wives lived in(yeah, I'm talking about the 90s). I know that those women had no supprt system in TWI that would help them at all.
Ladies...a little clue about us...guys need respect. We yearn for it as much as you yearn for love. That is what Ephesians is talking about simple respect, honor. If you show us respect I promise you we will be like putty in your hands...because you will have won our hearts.
Guys...Ephesians goes on to say that we are to love the woman. Don't come home and plop you arse down on the couch and flip on the tube and sit there all night like a deer caught in the headlights. Ask her about her day, tell her about yours, how you thought of her today, tell her you like the what she has done with her hair. Let her know she is your one and only.
This is just another example of a legitimate teaching that TWI screwed up.
From what I gather, the teaching consistently stressed the responsibility of the wife to submit to the husband but did not teach what Christ-like leadership was. You can't stress one without the other (oh yeah, that's interpretation in the verse...forgot, its ok to take stuff out of the larger context in TWI, right. Sorry)
For those who are interested, the rest of the section reads as follows:
quote:
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the Church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the Church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband.
The bottom line is that, right there in the context, it shows that the relationship between husband and wife should parallel the relationship between Christ and the Church (the Bride of Christ). Clearly the Church should have reverence for Christ, who first gave up His very life for His bride. But if the husband dares assume the Christ-like role in the relationship, then he'd better learn to live like Christ lived. But what did Christ do as a leader:
He condescended to take on flesh
He was in the most humble of circumstances from birth
He took care of the physical needs of His people (Cana, the loaves and the fishes, etc.)
He patiently taught the Word to His followers
He showed mercy by forgiving sinners
He constantly served His followers in all circumstances
He willingly went through a totally undeserved living h3ll for all of us (the trial, the scourging, the crowning with thorns, etc., i.e., His passion)
He willingly laid down His life in the most gruesome manner, largely for people who couldn't give a rats foot about it.
Now, if the Ephesians text is right, it is the husband's job to take on that level of Christ-like leadership. And, before the wife can be expected to show the reverence to the husband like how the Church shows reverence to Christ, the husband needs to take on that form of leadership FIRST. (Just as Christ DID first, prior to the Church showing reverence to Him)
But it makes total sense that TWI wouldn't stress that kind of leadership. After all, we are not sheep, we are sons of God, right? And, the Gospels are not written to us, they are written for our learning (whatever the h3ll that means). What a d@mned joke.
Sure, it makes sense that TWI taught that its OK for a husband to physically and mentally abuse his wife. It makes sense that TWI taught that its OK for a husband to commit spiritual and physical adultery as well. And it also makes sense that TWI taught that the wife had to simply submit to all of this abuse. After all, we don't have to pay attention to the life of CHrist. That part was written to a bunch of dirty Jews, not to the true sons of God. After all, the true Sons of God don't have to look to Christ for the example of how to live their lives, Christ is no longer present, he is absent and so doesn't count. The true Sons of God need to look at the examples of the "MOG" and the "mini-MOGs" floating around for their examples.
And meanwhile marriages are gone and lives are ruined. Yup, I sure miss walking in the liberty of TWI.
And, before the wife can be expected to show the reverence to the husband like how the Church shows reverence to Christ, the husband needs to take on that form of leadership FIRST.
Yes. If someone is a true leader, they have to lead by example, not just verbally.
1 Peter 3:1 - Likewise ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that if any obey not the word they also may without the word be won by the conversation (behavior) of the wives.
Us guys are lucky that sometimes our wives have covered for us.
RADAR - you are so right on there. If one didn't live day by day under the tight scrutiny of TWI2 - it is hard to understand - and of course this is not written to undermine any one else's experiences earlier on in the ministry. Wrong things went on for a long time in TWI - just different wrong things.
Mark - that was beautifully put. uhm if only it were that easy to put into practice :)-->
Out: if living a Christ-like life was easy, then everybody calling themselves a Christian would do it. Fortunately God is plentiful in mercy (as thankfully most of our spouses are, as well).
It's so easy to just say, "give your husband respect, ladies, and he will come around"... it is the same crap being sold in all the "Christian Wife" books that claim if you pray enough and are supportive enough, he'll change his evil ways... to which I say BULL.
I was nothing but supportive to my husband for the majority of the marriage. I gave whole-hearted respect even when he absolutely didn't deserve it. I cleaned up the messes he made, forgave him his screwups, wiped the slate clean, looked forward with a fresh new attitude, and prayed my butt off. I simply believed in him.
But even God can't override someone's free will... The fact is, my ex didn't have enough self-respect to believe the respect I gave him was genuine. He couldn't accept that it was real. Likewise, he didn't have a clue how to treat me with respect or appreciation, which are a big part of the whole "LOVE" thing that we women crave.
And TWI was the perfect haven. Whenever there was trouble in a marriage, the man was automatically given the benefit of the doubt. He might get chastised for something not being right, but the woman also got chastised because she is his helpmeet and therefore "involved" whether she had anything to do with it or not.
Honestly, if a man could put on a good front before leadership, he had it made in twi.
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oldiesman
What a crock.
Women were in charge all along...they had their men by the b..
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TheHighWay
Oldies... I hope you were trying to be funny, 'cause if you truly think the women on the field levels of twi were in charge, you are delusional.
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oldiesman
Many many wives ruled their husbands from behind the scenes.
That's a dirty little secret you women folks don't care to admit.
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rascal
Thankyou fortunate one.... I am so turned off by the whole abuse mess that we endured in the name of submission in and out of twi...I finally told my husband recently that I don`t think I want my daughters to even marry christian men.
I know I know, that is a horrible thing to say and he was very upset with me...but think about it...I do not want my daughters to ever feel honor bound as a christian to be required to submit to someone just because of their gender.....
Too many times I was forced to shut up and abide by my husbands choices.
The frustration of having my imput constantly ignored, and watching our family suffer the consequences of foolish choices .....having to ask permission for everything....having to submit each request for money for groceries to the humiliation of having him decide if it was necessary....like I was some kind of child is enough to drive one mad....
I don`t do it anymore, but I can tell that my spouse can still be intensly disaproving of my *independance*.
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oldiesman
Oh Rascal, can't you abandon the helpless victim routine, just for once
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Radar OReilly
Oldies,
You left twi a VERY VERY VERY long time ago.
I agree with you in one aspect, early on, and at high leadership levels of twi, the women were pulling the strings behind the scene, as evidenced by donna m and rfr.
FOR THE MOST PART, the average not leadership family/couple, the women were NOT IN CHARGE.
Oldies, you must honestly face that fact that you don't have a clue as to what really happened day to day in twi in the 90s and currently. Lcm blamed 80% of the fog year problems on the wives of leadership...dragging their husbands out by the b***s. As of 1990....a WHOLE NEW CONCEPT was enforced regarding twi followers and marriage.
TWI doctrine became exactly what you have read...the man was the head, the woman was subservient, and her entire spiritual welfare was dependent on her submitting herself to her husband's "covering." To go outside of his "covering" would lead to horrible calamity and possible death. You may or may not believe that was the teaching...but it was.
I distinctly remember when a young mother of an infant caused a fatal car accident down on 66 on the way to St. Marys. The husband worked in the auto shop...she had gone to town WITHOUT her husband's permission, and alone....in other words, not 2x2. She pulled out in front of a truck and the other driver was killed.
Of course, the entire incident was the subject of corps and staff and lunch meetings. The reason the poor man was killed, was because the wife was out of fellowship with God...for not asking her husband for permission to go to KMart in St Marys.
It was bad folks.......Oldies.....take a break man, you are out of your knowledge zone on this one.
radar
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oldiesman
I'll bow out of the conversation if this thread is about the '90's and beyond, which I freely admit ignorance.
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Radar OReilly
WOW.....
Rascal, Ladies......OBSERVE AND LISTEN FROM THE MASTER!!!
:D-->
OM, if you have read some of these current marriage threads, you will see that the discussion is just about 100% about TWI2 up to the present day. I know it is hard to believe but 1990.....was 15 YEARS AGO.
The time frame of doctrines is vital to understanding the true nature of twi. It changed like a chameleon to control it's followers to the absolute maximum.
Radar
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rascal
I was married in 86....that was the standard required of spouse corpes even back then....
Oldies you will never intimidate me into shutting up because you don`t want to hear it........nobody ever will again.
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Bramble
Yup, I've thought about that alot. In fact, this was a major issue for me leaving Christianity entirely.
My husband was never abusive or domineering, but I had seen other marriages where the husband was not like mine, and the misery those wives lived in(yeah, I'm talking about the 90s). I know that those women had no supprt system in TWI that would help them at all.
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Xena
I was taught in fellowship that if children were disobedient, it was because their mother was not submitting to their father.
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A la prochaine
Xena,
I clearly remember Donna getting up and teaching about women not being a conduit to the devil for their husbands. She used herself as an example.
If that ain't mind-bending, altering ....... I don't know what is!
Oldies...take that and smoke it!
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DaddyHoundog
om -- were you a married man in twi?
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oenophile
Ladies...a little clue about us...guys need respect. We yearn for it as much as you yearn for love. That is what Ephesians is talking about simple respect, honor. If you show us respect I promise you we will be like putty in your hands...because you will have won our hearts.
Guys...Ephesians goes on to say that we are to love the woman. Don't come home and plop you arse down on the couch and flip on the tube and sit there all night like a deer caught in the headlights. Ask her about her day, tell her about yours, how you thought of her today, tell her you like the what she has done with her hair. Let her know she is your one and only.
Boy, how TWIsted these truths became.
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rascal
Agreed oen, that is how it should be....
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markomalley
This is just another example of a legitimate teaching that TWI screwed up.
From what I gather, the teaching consistently stressed the responsibility of the wife to submit to the husband but did not teach what Christ-like leadership was. You can't stress one without the other (oh yeah, that's interpretation in the verse...forgot, its ok to take stuff out of the larger context in TWI, right. Sorry)
For those who are interested, the rest of the section reads as follows:
The bottom line is that, right there in the context, it shows that the relationship between husband and wife should parallel the relationship between Christ and the Church (the Bride of Christ). Clearly the Church should have reverence for Christ, who first gave up His very life for His bride. But if the husband dares assume the Christ-like role in the relationship, then he'd better learn to live like Christ lived. But what did Christ do as a leader:
Now, if the Ephesians text is right, it is the husband's job to take on that level of Christ-like leadership. And, before the wife can be expected to show the reverence to the husband like how the Church shows reverence to Christ, the husband needs to take on that form of leadership FIRST. (Just as Christ DID first, prior to the Church showing reverence to Him)
But it makes total sense that TWI wouldn't stress that kind of leadership. After all, we are not sheep, we are sons of God, right? And, the Gospels are not written to us, they are written for our learning (whatever the h3ll that means). What a d@mned joke.
Sure, it makes sense that TWI taught that its OK for a husband to physically and mentally abuse his wife. It makes sense that TWI taught that its OK for a husband to commit spiritual and physical adultery as well. And it also makes sense that TWI taught that the wife had to simply submit to all of this abuse. After all, we don't have to pay attention to the life of CHrist. That part was written to a bunch of dirty Jews, not to the true sons of God. After all, the true Sons of God don't have to look to Christ for the example of how to live their lives, Christ is no longer present, he is absent and so doesn't count. The true Sons of God need to look at the examples of the "MOG" and the "mini-MOGs" floating around for their examples.
And meanwhile marriages are gone and lives are ruined. Yup, I sure miss walking in the liberty of TWI.
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johniam
Yes. If someone is a true leader, they have to lead by example, not just verbally.
1 Peter 3:1 - Likewise ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that if any obey not the word they also may without the word be won by the conversation (behavior) of the wives.
Us guys are lucky that sometimes our wives have covered for us.
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waterbuffalo
Isn't that a telling sign of a cult--that the submission part is blown way out of perspective?
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ex10
oldies
You aren't married.
Consider me presumtuous, but I think I might I have a clue as to why...
Ok, I know that I'm mean, I'm saying 5 hail mary's as we speak....
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outofdafog
RADAR - you are so right on there. If one didn't live day by day under the tight scrutiny of TWI2 - it is hard to understand - and of course this is not written to undermine any one else's experiences earlier on in the ministry. Wrong things went on for a long time in TWI - just different wrong things.
Mark - that was beautifully put. uhm if only it were that easy to put into practice
:)-->
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markomalley
Out: if living a Christ-like life was easy, then everybody calling themselves a Christian would do it. Fortunately God is plentiful in mercy (as thankfully most of our spouses are, as well).
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TheHighWay
It's so easy to just say, "give your husband respect, ladies, and he will come around"... it is the same crap being sold in all the "Christian Wife" books that claim if you pray enough and are supportive enough, he'll change his evil ways... to which I say BULL.
I was nothing but supportive to my husband for the majority of the marriage. I gave whole-hearted respect even when he absolutely didn't deserve it. I cleaned up the messes he made, forgave him his screwups, wiped the slate clean, looked forward with a fresh new attitude, and prayed my butt off. I simply believed in him.
But even God can't override someone's free will... The fact is, my ex didn't have enough self-respect to believe the respect I gave him was genuine. He couldn't accept that it was real. Likewise, he didn't have a clue how to treat me with respect or appreciation, which are a big part of the whole "LOVE" thing that we women crave.
And TWI was the perfect haven. Whenever there was trouble in a marriage, the man was automatically given the benefit of the doubt. He might get chastised for something not being right, but the woman also got chastised because she is his helpmeet and therefore "involved" whether she had anything to do with it or not.
Honestly, if a man could put on a good front before leadership, he had it made in twi.
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rascal
Highway has described my life as well....Shell, may I have a tshirt?
Let me tell you....I have to fight daily to not let myself fall back into that mindset.
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shazdancer
You're tellin' my story, TheHighWay!
And I would add, that when you pour support on an abusive person, it is like pouring kerosene on a match.
The abuser can't wait to take advantage of your "weakness."
Regards,
Shaz
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