I am going to say something here. I may get in trouble for it because I know that this is not a "Hi I'm new here thread", but rather a discussion where opinions are opposite and or different.
I think that it is hard to blame the husband for this. In hindight, which is so many times "perfect vision", I am sure that even the husband is upset with himself for not seeing that she might have gone off her rocker and do something turrible. But I am sure that he probly did not expect her to kill their children!
I would bet that there are many of us here who have loved people alot whose problems were really bad, but we hoped and prayed and wanted to believe that they would change, or get better. But they didn't, in the end. I had a WOW brother who did not like to work and he always owed us money and ate all our food. But many times while we were at work instead of him looking for work, he would just sneak back home and go to sleep after he raided the frigerator and ate up a bunch of the food. Plus he would go door to door all of the time but instead of asking people to come to fellowship he would ask them for cigarettes! Door to door cigarettes bumming! But he never really did pay his part of the rent and he slept all of the time. How he stayed fat amazed us! The WOWS in the other family were getting tired of his cigarette bumming and the continual drag on our family and said that he should just "go". But me and the coordinator girl kept wanting to see him succeed and we kept trying to help him, but, he never changed at all. But we loved him and never gave up on him!
One day when we were all at work, me and the two girls, he stole all of our money that we had-$600 dollars! And in 1976 that was a lot of money! And looking back we all said; "Man we knew he was bad! We should have known!"
So. Does that mean that me and the girls were guilty of his stealing the money? Were we guilty of him being unsuccessfull? I mean afterwards there is no doubt that we wished we had given him a "pat about a foot lower", or kicking him out, but because we loved him, we became partially guilty of his crime? I don't seem to see it thataway.
I don't think that this husband of this derranged murderess should have to pay any price for this because I think that he will now grieve for his children for the rest of his entire life! He will probably be tempted to take that self inflicted lethal injection his own self
I think that Excathedra has a good point that this woman might be better served to take the lethal injection her ownself.
Glad that you find me so entertaining Oldies...what a shame you cannot make an attempt to understand my salient points, rather than simply dismissing them as unresolved anger.
You don't even follow your own scriptures, but rather, your own/VPW's interpretation of them, BOTH of which is sadly lacking, in so many ways!
No, you don't adhere to this interpretation because 'it makes the most sense'. You adhere to it due to nothing else than loyalty to the literal and fundamentalist interpretation of scripture. If there is something in the 'Word' that runs counter to that which is generally regarded as wrong (such as the wholesale slaughtering of children and babies), then you must remain loyal to that which the scripture endorses and whitewash any bad looking image/impression that might come of what is inside.
THAT is one main thing that I referred to when I made my 'free of bondage' remark. You see, I no longer am bound to make excuses for actions done/endorsed by a belief, actions that would send any human being to the electric chair, with the ACLU there to pull the switch.
Actions where innocent people are hurt are ALWAYS wrong, be it done by Andrea Yates, or some prophet in the OT.
quote:I don't think that this husband of this derranged murderess should have to pay any price for this ...
Frankee, you make good points about this and I agree with you. How could he have known his wife would kill the children? I believe she was responsible for her actions.
quote: What's your point in all this Garth, that evil spirits do not exist?
Ok, they don't exist because the science regarding medicine, biology, and the mind, and other related fields have progressed and have proven that insanity is a medical/psychological issue, not a spiritual one consisting of demons, devils, and sprites which needs exorcism and drilling holes in people's heads to let all the bad spirits out.
I can respect Annika Sorenstam. She may not have made the cut in that men's tournament she was in last year, but at least she was hitting her drives off the same tees as the men she was competing against. Andrea Yates, on the other hand, got to hit off the ladies' tee. In the state of Texas she should've been executed 50 years ago by law, but SOMEWHERE in that court room there was a ladies' tee. Must be nice.
How is it this man is totaly excused for being a responsible parent?
huh? He knew she was ill. Maybe he didnt know she would murder I do not think even she knew she would be capable of that.
I can not ask he be responsible for what she did. NO or for how sick she was..
MY point is they where HIS children as well. Shame on him for not protecting them from in the very least a very sick depressed woman that showed she was not capable .
Shame on him for insisting his way through prayer and dominance in the relationship must work for her at the risk of ther safety of those innocent children.
It takes two to make babies HELLO how long is our culture going to excuse men for their behaviour or lack of responsibility with children and force feed woman to submit to the sole care taking of the men and children at the very radical expense of their own self? how long must a woman carry the emotional load for the man and the children? That isnt even biblical it is just our sick bias culture of male dominance flaring up like the coals of hell .
It is not by accident that the "hysterical" overemotional female ends up under the same roof as the unemotional distant male.
"The weaker sex must protect the stronger sex from recognizing the strength of the weaker sex, lest the stronger sex feel weakened by the strength of the weaker sex"
Her husband was a dominate man using the name of Christ as an excuse to underfunction as a father to his own children and as a caring loving husband.
We often accept these roles in society because he makes the money and stands as a deacon in "the church" all the while his own famile was noticably struggling and suffering.
Did she kill her children? Yeah she did she is guilty an evil woman tormented no doubt. What did he do hmm? He made an environment where she was so dam trapped she saw no other way out to save her children.. He could have not had the children he controls his body part but instead insisted on what he felt made him look good and in control. at her expense.
he could have taken the children elswhere and said this is out of control to heck with what the church will think but he had his priorities and the last one was the safety of his children or the health of his wife. this type of love I do not need and neither did she she knew it was a fake love killing them all and trapping them in a situation she couldnt handle.
What she did was insane , what he didnt do was hateful and cruel and based in pride of his ego .
I agree she is one twisted person and has no excuse my god she killed in a very graphic calculating manner.
she is scary just scary and should never be let out and maybe should be put to death I agree she is insane and a cold bloody KILLER .
I have issues with what the husband didnt do to protect her from herself and more important what he refused to acknowledge in protecting his children. He was in a position to stop making babies, he was in a position to take the children some where eles away from her insanity but his pride and ego and standing in the church kept him from doing what could have avoided such a horrid act to be done.
she didnt stand alone in keeping the sanity. he should be accountable as well.
If she knew he was molesting the boys and looked the other way and allowed it to happen YES woman are convicted of neglect every day because of the inability to protect their children from abusers....fathers, boyfriends etc. the children are taken out in a case where the woman allows a man to dominate her to the degree it compromises the children safety happens everyday.
and if she didnt know then court orders are put into place for her to PROTECT the children from abuse against the boyfriend or father of the children.
That's BULL! What if he had molested the 5 boys? Would that be any of HER fault? Didn't think so.
She would be part blame if she knew he had problems in that area.
Johniam, I just don't think you are understanding this. In everything I've read it has been stated that the husband knew that she had mental illness problems, he was told for her not to have any more children...she wouldn't be able to handle it mentally. In fact, the day it happened there was something about his mother was suppose to be there later in the day because of the mental problems going on. But, yet he chose to go to work instead of waiting for his mother to get there.
He knew the severity of her mental statis!!! End of point.
I know that the husband tried at least two different psychiatric treatment centers in the days just prior to her murdering the children.
I think that the two psychiatrists and the hospitals and medical staff that wouldn`t admit Andrea, and ignored their desperate pleas for help are criminally negligent as well.
John, he is culpable in the fact that HE was the sane one, it was his responsibility as the husband and loved one to care for and protect not only Andrea from herself, but their children from her insanity as well.....since as an insane person, she was unable to do either.....insanity and delusion, is not something that you just turn on and off when it is convenient.....as the one in control of his faculties.... he shouldda taken charge....he should have stopped impregnating her when the doctors warned him repeatedly that she was in danger, instead of pronouncing her cured and doing as he damn well pleased....there in lies his guilt.
I have to ask you this and its not meant to point fingers at you at all. But from all the time I've read your posts I get the feeling that there is some kind of anger towards women in general. There must have been something thats happened in your life to take these things to such an extreme. This is what I get from what you posted in several other threads.
Please say this isn't true. I'd truly like to understand why you continuously feel that women get away with stuff and men don't. Is that how you feel?
Hmm. Coulda-woulda shoulda- How many times have all of us said that one?
I do not think that anybody could have guessed that the woman might go and murder her own children. Why is it that so many people want to point fingers and to lay blame? Sure if a Mom knows that her husband has "child molesting tendencies" but doesn't protect her children from that husband then she should share that blame. But did Andrea Yates have "child murdering problems"? She had mental problems I think for sure! That is known! But it wasn't known that she had "child murdering" problems, or I would bet that that dad would have taken more care! Who wouldn't have?
I will bet that he misses his babies in a HUGE way! And one person here said "shame on that dad" for not protecting them or something close to that. Well, I will bet that that dad has lots and lots of shame and guilt and anguish and searing pain and nightmares and that they will last him for the rest of his entire life! He will be haunted by this all of his ENTIRE LIFE and that will be terrible medicine to swallow everyday.
What kind of punishment should be given him that will be worse than his present pain? I think it is very easy to judge others in situations that we are not in. I think we should listen to Jesus when he said;
In defense of Johniam, I do not think it is to fair to be judging him as a woman hater. I do see something that was written here by someone that seems to blame some of this on a "sick male culture" to which maybe Johniam was responding? One person here said;
quote: It takes two to make babies HELLO how long is our culture going to excuse men for their behaviour or lack of responsibility with children and force feed woman to submit to the sole care taking of the men and children at the very radical expense of their own self? how long must a woman carry the emotional load for the man and the children? That isnt even biblical it is just our sick bias culture of male dominance flaring up like the coals of hell .
It is not by accident that the "hysterical" overemotional female ends up under the same roof as the unemotional distant male.
Oh, there is that quote:
quote: it is just our sick bias culture of male dominance flaring up like the coals of hell .
I can see how a man might be offended by this statement, can't you all?
I don't think it is a "blame the male, or blame the female culture issue". It is just a turrible incident where a woman went mad and lost her marbles and killed her kids and had anyone an inkling of an idea about what was about to happen they would have tried to move heaven and earth to stop it.
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oldiesman
Rascal, her nuttiness and her possession are probably one in the same, as you seem to agree.
You're funny Rascal. You take jabs at twi, even on threads that have nothing to do with twi. Let your anger go for 5 minutes.
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Belle
OUCH! The truth hurts.
:)--> Always good to remember where we came from and how easy it was to get there, eh?
Good points, Rascal.
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Frankee
I am going to say something here. I may get in trouble for it because I know that this is not a "Hi I'm new here thread", but rather a discussion where opinions are opposite and or different.
I think that it is hard to blame the husband for this. In hindight, which is so many times "perfect vision", I am sure that even the husband is upset with himself for not seeing that she might have gone off her rocker and do something turrible. But I am sure that he probly did not expect her to kill their children!
I would bet that there are many of us here who have loved people alot whose problems were really bad, but we hoped and prayed and wanted to believe that they would change, or get better. But they didn't, in the end. I had a WOW brother who did not like to work and he always owed us money and ate all our food. But many times while we were at work instead of him looking for work, he would just sneak back home and go to sleep after he raided the frigerator and ate up a bunch of the food. Plus he would go door to door all of the time but instead of asking people to come to fellowship he would ask them for cigarettes! Door to door cigarettes bumming! But he never really did pay his part of the rent and he slept all of the time. How he stayed fat amazed us! The WOWS in the other family were getting tired of his cigarette bumming and the continual drag on our family and said that he should just "go". But me and the coordinator girl kept wanting to see him succeed and we kept trying to help him, but, he never changed at all. But we loved him and never gave up on him!
One day when we were all at work, me and the two girls, he stole all of our money that we had-$600 dollars! And in 1976 that was a lot of money! And looking back we all said; "Man we knew he was bad! We should have known!"
So. Does that mean that me and the girls were guilty of his stealing the money? Were we guilty of him being unsuccessfull? I mean afterwards there is no doubt that we wished we had given him a "pat about a foot lower", or kicking him out, but because we loved him, we became partially guilty of his crime? I don't seem to see it thataway.
I don't think that this husband of this derranged murderess should have to pay any price for this because I think that he will now grieve for his children for the rest of his entire life! He will probably be tempted to take that self inflicted lethal injection his own self
I think that Excathedra has a good point that this woman might be better served to take the lethal injection her ownself.
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rascal
Thanks belle, honestly scarey isn`t it?
Glad that you find me so entertaining Oldies...what a shame you cannot make an attempt to understand my salient points, rather than simply dismissing them as unresolved anger.
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GarthP2000
Oldies,
You don't even follow your own scriptures, but rather, your own/VPW's interpretation of them, BOTH of which is sadly lacking, in so many ways!
No, you don't adhere to this interpretation because 'it makes the most sense'. You adhere to it due to nothing else than loyalty to the literal and fundamentalist interpretation of scripture. If there is something in the 'Word' that runs counter to that which is generally regarded as wrong (such as the wholesale slaughtering of children and babies), then you must remain loyal to that which the scripture endorses and whitewash any bad looking image/impression that might come of what is inside.
THAT is one main thing that I referred to when I made my 'free of bondage' remark. You see, I no longer am bound to make excuses for actions done/endorsed by a belief, actions that would send any human being to the electric chair, with the ACLU there to pull the switch.
Actions where innocent people are hurt are ALWAYS wrong, be it done by Andrea Yates, or some prophet in the OT.
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Steve!
Ummm, OM? did you know that this is an anti-TWI website?
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oldiesman
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GarthP2000
((laughs)) First you say its by possession, ... then you say she is responsible.
Gad, I wish you'd make up your mind.
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oldiesman
I do not believe God is evil and is responsible for evil things. If that's your point, I disagree.
And again I say this has nothing to do with the Yates situation or the topic at hand.
No I didn't know that, thanks Steve. A possessed person can still be held accountable for their actions. It all depends on the situation and circumstances involved.What's your point in all this Garth, that evil spirits do not exist?
Or they do exist, but couldn't have been involved with Yates?
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GarthP2000
Ok, they don't exist because the science regarding medicine, biology, and the mind, and other related fields have progressed and have proven that insanity is a medical/psychological issue, not a spiritual one consisting of demons, devils, and sprites which needs exorcism and drilling holes in people's heads to let all the bad spirits out.
There, happy now?
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Frankee
There is one evil spirit in the Bible called a deceiving spirit.
I think that Kaiser Soze said it very well. He said that "the greatest trick that the devil ever pulled was convincing people that he doesn't exist".
I think that there is a devil. Look at all of the incredible evil in the world.
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oldiesman
Well, I just disagree. I still do believe in spirits, both good and evil.
I also believe that some evil spirits can be rendered ineffective thru some medications. I believe in medicine too.
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johniam
Garth:
quote: I am SO glad that I am not mentally bound and chained by the TWI/fundamentalist based viewpoints that you have just expressed any longer.
No, you're just bound by your own intellectual stupidity which is exponentially worse.
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johniam
I can respect Annika Sorenstam. She may not have made the cut in that men's tournament she was in last year, but at least she was hitting her drives off the same tees as the men she was competing against. Andrea Yates, on the other hand, got to hit off the ladies' tee. In the state of Texas she should've been executed 50 years ago by law, but SOMEWHERE in that court room there was a ladies' tee. Must be nice.
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mj412
How is it this man is totaly excused for being a responsible parent?
huh? He knew she was ill. Maybe he didnt know she would murder I do not think even she knew she would be capable of that.
I can not ask he be responsible for what she did. NO or for how sick she was..
MY point is they where HIS children as well. Shame on him for not protecting them from in the very least a very sick depressed woman that showed she was not capable .
Shame on him for insisting his way through prayer and dominance in the relationship must work for her at the risk of ther safety of those innocent children.
It takes two to make babies HELLO how long is our culture going to excuse men for their behaviour or lack of responsibility with children and force feed woman to submit to the sole care taking of the men and children at the very radical expense of their own self? how long must a woman carry the emotional load for the man and the children? That isnt even biblical it is just our sick bias culture of male dominance flaring up like the coals of hell .
It is not by accident that the "hysterical" overemotional female ends up under the same roof as the unemotional distant male.
"The weaker sex must protect the stronger sex from recognizing the strength of the weaker sex, lest the stronger sex feel weakened by the strength of the weaker sex"
Her husband was a dominate man using the name of Christ as an excuse to underfunction as a father to his own children and as a caring loving husband.
We often accept these roles in society because he makes the money and stands as a deacon in "the church" all the while his own famile was noticably struggling and suffering.
Did she kill her children? Yeah she did she is guilty an evil woman tormented no doubt. What did he do hmm? He made an environment where she was so dam trapped she saw no other way out to save her children.. He could have not had the children he controls his body part but instead insisted on what he felt made him look good and in control. at her expense.
he could have taken the children elswhere and said this is out of control to heck with what the church will think but he had his priorities and the last one was the safety of his children or the health of his wife. this type of love I do not need and neither did she she knew it was a fake love killing them all and trapping them in a situation she couldnt handle.
What she did was insane , what he didnt do was hateful and cruel and based in pride of his ego .
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johniam
That's BULL! What if he had molested the 5 boys? Would that be any of HER fault? Didn't think so.
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mj412
Johniam
I agree she is one twisted person and has no excuse my god she killed in a very graphic calculating manner.
she is scary just scary and should never be let out and maybe should be put to death I agree she is insane and a cold bloody KILLER .
I have issues with what the husband didnt do to protect her from herself and more important what he refused to acknowledge in protecting his children. He was in a position to stop making babies, he was in a position to take the children some where eles away from her insanity but his pride and ego and standing in the church kept him from doing what could have avoided such a horrid act to be done.
she didnt stand alone in keeping the sanity. he should be accountable as well.
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mj412
If she knew he was molesting the boys and looked the other way and allowed it to happen YES woman are convicted of neglect every day because of the inability to protect their children from abusers....fathers, boyfriends etc. the children are taken out in a case where the woman allows a man to dominate her to the degree it compromises the children safety happens everyday.
and if she didnt know then court orders are put into place for her to PROTECT the children from abuse against the boyfriend or father of the children.
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vickles
She would be part blame if she knew he had problems in that area.
Johniam, I just don't think you are understanding this. In everything I've read it has been stated that the husband knew that she had mental illness problems, he was told for her not to have any more children...she wouldn't be able to handle it mentally. In fact, the day it happened there was something about his mother was suppose to be there later in the day because of the mental problems going on. But, yet he chose to go to work instead of waiting for his mother to get there.
He knew the severity of her mental statis!!! End of point.
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rascal
I know that the husband tried at least two different psychiatric treatment centers in the days just prior to her murdering the children.
I think that the two psychiatrists and the hospitals and medical staff that wouldn`t admit Andrea, and ignored their desperate pleas for help are criminally negligent as well.
John, he is culpable in the fact that HE was the sane one, it was his responsibility as the husband and loved one to care for and protect not only Andrea from herself, but their children from her insanity as well.....since as an insane person, she was unable to do either.....insanity and delusion, is not something that you just turn on and off when it is convenient.....as the one in control of his faculties.... he shouldda taken charge....he should have stopped impregnating her when the doctors warned him repeatedly that she was in danger, instead of pronouncing her cured and doing as he damn well pleased....there in lies his guilt.
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vickles
johniam,
I have to ask you this and its not meant to point fingers at you at all. But from all the time I've read your posts I get the feeling that there is some kind of anger towards women in general. There must have been something thats happened in your life to take these things to such an extreme. This is what I get from what you posted in several other threads.
Please say this isn't true. I'd truly like to understand why you continuously feel that women get away with stuff and men don't. Is that how you feel?
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oldiesman
Johniam, why do you hate women?
Why?
Why?
Why?
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Frankee
Hmm. Coulda-woulda shoulda- How many times have all of us said that one?
I do not think that anybody could have guessed that the woman might go and murder her own children. Why is it that so many people want to point fingers and to lay blame? Sure if a Mom knows that her husband has "child molesting tendencies" but doesn't protect her children from that husband then she should share that blame. But did Andrea Yates have "child murdering problems"? She had mental problems I think for sure! That is known! But it wasn't known that she had "child murdering" problems, or I would bet that that dad would have taken more care! Who wouldn't have?
I will bet that he misses his babies in a HUGE way! And one person here said "shame on that dad" for not protecting them or something close to that. Well, I will bet that that dad has lots and lots of shame and guilt and anguish and searing pain and nightmares and that they will last him for the rest of his entire life! He will be haunted by this all of his ENTIRE LIFE and that will be terrible medicine to swallow everyday.
What kind of punishment should be given him that will be worse than his present pain? I think it is very easy to judge others in situations that we are not in. I think we should listen to Jesus when he said;
"Judge not lest ye be judged".
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Frankee
In defense of Johniam, I do not think it is to fair to be judging him as a woman hater. I do see something that was written here by someone that seems to blame some of this on a "sick male culture" to which maybe Johniam was responding? One person here said;
Oh, there is that quote:
I can see how a man might be offended by this statement, can't you all?
I don't think it is a "blame the male, or blame the female culture issue". It is just a turrible incident where a woman went mad and lost her marbles and killed her kids and had anyone an inkling of an idea about what was about to happen they would have tried to move heaven and earth to stop it.
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