My point is I do not think leaders openly allowed children to be molested or do I think they "condoned " molestation . Did they take action against people you had a problem with? maybe not that would be your job as a parent not a bible research group to get involved in your personal accusations and affairs..I know they did get involved in peoplels life yet they seldom went out of the ministry for problems to be solved and get involved in court and having people arrested. they did not stop anyone from going to the law , they may not have encouraged it if it was not something they agreed with.
Abigail
you say you where forbid well now they hand tied your ability to find a baby sitter and forced you to chose someone who was in question... or is it you felt pressure to belong and make the group happy and obeyed somone suggestion fearing they will not accept you or your husband would get angry Personal problems over ruled your better judgement and you compromised your childrens safety for twi?
I saw that alot many parents lost their ability to keep their children safe to be involved in twi. it is sad indeed.
I have raised teens a child can legaly have sex when he she is 17 years old... a teen or young adult who again compromises her self and regrets a bad choice learns a very tough leson indeed. but the law supercedes twi law and rape has been illegal for many years authorities could have been accessed by those who felt they had been violated. but apparently they were not for personal reasons again... the personal desire to belong to twi . or ignorance . or fear these sad stories happen all over the place eveyday to children who had parents who never instructed or protected their children from what this world offers as "love" or consel or caring or whatever name abuse may take on.
to not report abuse or rape is bad and sad and that is why maybe more incidents were allowed to continue on other girls or boys.
I also know parents can not be with their children all the time I was a working mom .. but we can tell our children to tell and then TELL our own self to make it stop. sure it is pressure and difficult if it is a family member or a person in your churchy group but it is a parents job.
The fact a twi leader told you to keep quietand you chose to obey their instruction would indicate to me a much more serious problem within the individual who has the precious job of taking care of innocent children.
my only point in this thread is I do not believe the leaders of twi condoned or encouraged child molestation , I do not believe twi set out to harbor crimes against children or take care of those who did. Do I think men will have sex with a sweet young girl who is willing ? you bet! do I think young girls are niave and at times seeking from older males giving them attention? YEP! Do I think people regret choices they make when they compromise themself sexualy ? yes sadly sometimes for a life time.. but it does not have to be so. do I think people get caught up in belonging to a group and listen to the wrong people in what is good for their life? yes it happens everyday.
as far as stupid parents and niave teens and sexual abuse Yes it did happen probably more than anyone wants to know , this type of activity is common in our culture as a whole and twi had "new" people coming and going all the time and had a structure of people pleasing and group think mentality. a ripe forest for child molestation and abuse. Many stupid people with personal problems and history of abuse sought out consel from twi leaders, and what the leaders was for the most part was other stupid people with personal baggage and personal problems .
personal responsibility in life and ability to make good choices for ones self is a growing up process, and much forgivness is neede to continue on in a healthy peaceful happy life.
I guess what I do not get is the fact parents would or could allow TWI any say so over who watched their kids.. they never demanded your kids go to a certain place you could have made other arrangements. In the early eighties "childrens fellowship" was huge at the limb meeting hundreds of children often times..I left my children with my mom on these occasions untill they were old enough to speak clearly about what they did and with whom .
they enjoyed going at that point. MY own twig leader would take her children to a babysitters house (somone not in the way) when they held fellowship at their house.
no one forced anyone to have their children left with another Im certain a "friend" may have offered their services hmmm ok again if it was a young child I would make my own arrangements with those I trusted. I never saw any demand for parents to force their children to be babysat for free.. or is it more like you wanted to "take the class" and couldnt find a sitter and the happy household volunteered their service and you gladly took them up on it ? and assumed all was well?
I also know if someone is arrested for sexual abuse it does not mean they were convicted...or even guilty maybe he was I know not of your current highlighted story in AK.
But if a person is convicted it is often the case they must stay away from all children as part of their parole and clearly "runing a childrens fellowship " would be in violation of such.
this is how I feel about it my children where given to me to take care of not twi or its leaders.. it was an honor to have such a long and very difficult job and God was our saving grace through much. I am very sorry for the parents without the ability to see the honor and righteousness of such a calling goes above and beyond any group bible or not.
My point is I do not think leaders openly allowed children to be molested or do I think they "condoned " molestation .
The fact that a Branch Leader not only perpetrated the crimes but was tried, convicted and imprisoned...this doesn't make you think that leaders openly allowed children to be molested?
Hmmm...then what exactly do the words Branch Leader mean?
quote:Did they take action against people you had a problem with? maybe not that would be your job as a parent not a bible research group to get involved in your personal accusations and affairs
OK, so I kept my daughter away from the man. Beyond that I was supposed to keep my mouth shut and let him continue to run a children's fellowship? That I was not supposed to take it to the highest authorities? That it was too bad, so sad if the other parents weren't as bright as I was?
Hmmmm...so exactly how are parents supposed to know somebody is a known child molester if the victim's parents keep their mouths shut?
quote:I know they did get involved in peoplels life yet they seldom went out of the ministry for problems to be solved and get involved in court and having people arrested.
Yep...you've got that one right.
quote:they did not stop anyone from going to the law , they may not have encouraged it if it was not something they agreed with.
Here you are dead wrong. Not only did twi people steal evidence from my home, twi people sat in front of my home for several nights after telling me that I would die for going outside of "the body".
quote:I have raised teens a child can legaly have sex when he she is 17 years old
Hey, selective reader...I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT TEENAGERS. (Yeah...I'm yelling...because you obviously can't hear very well.)
The children I've been talking about were from the ages of 3yo to 7yo.
quote:my only point in this thread is I do not believe the leaders of twi condoned or encouraged child molestation , I do not believe twi set out to harbor crimes against children or take care of those who did.
Then why not just say that and leave it at that? Why go to all the effort to discredit anybody who knows better....except that old dogs can't be taught new tricks.
quote:Do I think men will have sex with a sweet young girl who is willing ? you bet! do I think young girls are niave and at times seeking from older males giving them attention? YEP! Do I think people regret choices they make when they compromise themself sexualy ?
Yeah..."young girls"...7 year olds? 3 year olds?
This is just plain sickness of the brain.
quote:as far as stupid parents and niave teens and sexual abuse
Hey, selective reader...I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT TEENAGERS. (Yeah...I'm yelling...because you obviously can't hear very well.)
Basically, this post of yours...like nearly all of the other posts of yours...sums up to say...
"You were stupid parents. Your little girls wanted the attention of those men. Even if you did go to the authorities, even if the guy did get arrested, even if you kept your children safe from it ever happening again, you should keep your mouth shut and not tell other parents whose children are exposed to the perpetrator. And whatever you do, it's stupid to expect a pedophile's boss to stop placing that pedophile in a position of authority over children. Shut up about all of this or I'm going call you stupid and immature and tell everybody what lousy parents you are."
WTG, mj. Your example of exactly how twi dealt with leadership who were also pedophiles is better than others trying to explain how it all went down.
Gawd I gotta love you! You just make communicating twi's mentality so much easier sometimes! Thank you, {{{{{mj}}}}}. :)-->
quote: Do I think men will have sex with a sweet young girl who is willing ? you bet! do I think young girls are niave and at times seeking from older males giving them attention? YEP!
You know what? There are a tremendous amount of men who WILL NOT have sex with that girl also - the difference being, they take responsibilty for their actions and are decent human beings rather than predators. Child molestors only 'use' the excuse that the kid enticed them. How is it a little girl (or boy for that matter), is sexier than a full grown woman anyway?
And TWI is to blame - they have always purported themselves to be a safe harbor for God's people. Let's not let our hindsight of being involved in this toxic group become blurry and idealistic. It was a living he11 on earth or we'd still be involved.
well thank you waywayout, i was going to bring up this remark of mj's
i think i was once a sweet young girl. do freshmen girls in college count ? but i was not willing or seeking sexual attention from wierwille -- fatherly attention, yes; MOG pastor counselor attention, yes
i can't even remember how i got to the back of the coach, etc.
makes me sad
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha makes me sad it happened, not that i can't remember !!!!! lol
I doubt I would still be involved and I never was "involved" to the point of self destruction .
Excathedra it is very important the fact you can not remember what happened to you and how, it may be blocked by the truama, our thoughts only handle what they are able to survive intact. sometimes a block is made to erase from the formost part to survive something the brain does not think it can survive with .
this is why conseling and talking about truamas are so imediate , why they send conselors grief and otherwise to survivors of 911 and the school shooting or even the death of a class mate in the schools. the hospitals have crisis counselors for victims of crimes and rape and truama who write notes that can be very useful in the post mental health care that is needed. To say you do not remember may indicate a inability to process information you do have inside yourself. this is not a healthy response Excathedra a common one but not healthy as the pain and experience is valid and working every minute in your thoughts and unless dealt with can cause a life time of trouble you may never connect with just why you think the way you do or react in a manner you do to the original problem or truama. to not remember is more dangerous and capable of providing harm than to deal directly with the depression and truama with a professional who can help you cope and have a healthy life .
it is not funny it is no way to cope , I hope you seek help to resolve this problem and I pray you find the strength to overcome and work with yourself and a professional to be happy and at peace with all of you.
yes I was going to ask if alcohol was involved. or drugs..
it makes a difference IM glad you seek help to cope with the issues your youth presented itself with.
my sister was run over by a car when we were teens she was drunk she does not remember it and she was awake in the emergency room. I was not drunk I have remembered the blood the emergency procedures and her screams and the fear she was dead for over forty years... I think she is better off not remembering. I still hate walking along side of a busy highway .
"you say you where forbid well now they hand tied your ability to find a baby sitter and forced you to chose someone who was in question... or is it you felt pressure to belong and make the group happy and obeyed somone suggestion fearing they will not accept you or your husband would get angry Personal problems over ruled your better judgement and you compromised your childrens safety for twi?"
Uh, no, it wasn't about "making the group" happy MJ. Although there was an aspect regarding making my husband happy because when he wasn't happy he could get quite abusive.
It was more about the fact that I actually believed (for a time) what was taught. You know, if you don't obey your husband then you do not have God's protection and in a situation such as who to leave my kids with it would mean they didn't have God's protection either.
"The fact a twi leader told you to keep quietand you chose to obey their instruction would indicate to me a much more serious problem within the individual who has the precious job of taking care of innocent children."
I don't know why I bother addressing you. It is such a waste of time because you have your head so far up your *** you can't see anything but your own s**t. It wasn't about people pleasing, that may be your own problem and your own projections, but it wasn't mine. It was about believing the twisted crap they taught and yes, THAT was a serious problem. One I am thankful to say, I have overcome.
quote:I am very sorry for the parents without the ability to see the honor and righteousness of such a calling goes above and beyond any group bible or not
why eles would somone leave their children with folks they questioned as safe ? why eles would they not listen to their children or teach their children how to be safe regardless of who ever may hurt them? they lacked the ability Ex, to keep their children safe for the sake of the group and its approval and Im sorry for that.
To be intimidated because you need to belong or obey another at the cost of compromising children, their safety or well being would never be Gods will for anyones life it just isnt common sense it is cult like behaviour that is instilled in the parent willing to compromise for group think or people pleasing behaviour or fear or ignorance. for me the most important job I had or ever will have is helping my children grew up to be well and safe no group or intimidation could stop that as a priority #1 . I feel it was a job with honor and righteousness granted by God and I am truly sorry for parents unable to see or live that in their families and got hurt.
plenty and I mean to say plenty of divorce in twi, I understand you thought what you did was right , I saw more divorce in twi than I did marriages and that is the truth, I saw people leaving their families to marry into another all together corps as well. the fact you were in an abusive relationship tells alot about where you where at scary isnt it? NY just passed a law that states if a parents allows a child to witness abuse they will be taken from the home imediately . I think it is a good law. some would say it is blaming the victim. Somone has to protect the children in those types of households and obviously the parents being abused or the one abusing is incapable.
quote:why eles would somone leave their children with folks they questioned as safe ? why eles would they not listen to their children or teach their children how to be safe regardless of who ever may hurt them? they lacked the ability Ex, to keep their children safe for the sake of the group and its approval and Im sorry for that.
Trouble is, that was NOT what was being described here. People were leaving their children with what they were told were experienced child care workers who also loved God. The parents didn't do a police check on these guys before leaving their children with them. Then, when the children reported they'd been molested, the parents got the children away from those guys and reported them!
Sheesh, they did the right thing, and you want to say the parents were negligent? Have YOU ever taken a caregiver's fingerprints before leaving your children? Of course not. You listen to credible recommendations. They thought they had a good referral from a godly organization. Surprise....
We have similar laws here in Michigan, MJ, and yes, it is a good law.
One of the reasons I got out of TWI (and there was certainly more than one) and my marriage, was for my children. It just took me some time and counselling, to figure it out and work up the courage to do it.
It also meant taking the chance the devil was going to kill me, but if it wasn't the devil it might have been my ex. So, ya do whatchya gotta.
"I understand you thought what you did was right"
Yes, I did, as I do now. See, if it had all been about people pleasing I would spend my whole life being screwed, wouldn't I. Cause you never can please all the people. There are those who would condemn me for getting divorced and accepting help from the government to make sure my childrens' medical needs are met too.
If I was worried about what those people thought, my seven year old would be in a whole heap of trouble, medically.
There were certainly those in TWI who were more concerned about pleasing people than they should have been. However, I suspect the majority of people did the things they did because they genuinely believed they were doing God's word and genuinely feared the consequences (from the devil) of not doing God's word.
This would include those who had abortions, even though in their hearts they didn't really want to. Those who used that damned spoon even though in their hearts, didn't really want to. It may even include some who turned a blind eye to even worse situations.
The thing that gets you when you are in a cult, and is one of the most difficult areas to overcome, is learning to trust yourself either again or for the first time.
I don`t get why this thread has swerved from the very real abuse suffered by children at the hands of members of twi to the parents having to defend themselves against mj.
See it`s just like with the abuse any of us guys...girls...children suffered in twi...we were decieved into trusting the perpetrators....thats why perpetrators are successfull mj, they are GOOD at what they do...the ones with poor skills are caught and jailed.
We trusted these people because they had a good schtick ...they introduced us to God...we thought that they were honorable in their intentions ....sure it was naieve to trust but naieve is a far cry from stupid or criminal a far cry from the picture that you are painting of parents mj.
Children suffered in twi period...and all of the condemnation and guilt that you attempt to heap on parents with your mischaracterisation changes this fact not one iota.
Your attempts to draw attention away from ...and mitigate the evil visited on these poor kiddoes by attempting to heap the guilt and pointing your vile finger of blame on poor harried parents who were only trying to do their very best to serve God is unconscionable mj.
See I understand child abuse from the kids point of view outside of twi....it is always someone the parents trust...someone in good standing with the neighbors and friends...with plausible excuses for spending time with the children...they are cunning...sick ...vile people who get their kicks from hurting....THEY ARE THE GUILTY ONES!!!! ...Geeze and here you are yet again blaming the ones decieved...the ones hurt...the innocents....
Your callousness as well as complete lack of comprehension regarding the reality of what was endured and why is bewildering.
I understand oldies....I know who he is and why he feels that he needs to defend twi...I understand his agenda....you however I haven`t figured out...I feel that you are abysmaly ignorant concerning these subjects you feel so constrained to condemn us in.
I sure wish that you would stop beating up the victims of these crimes.
you address me nearly everytime in your posts by name. it seems to me your the one who is directing comments .
Abby
thatis what Im saying exactly that is was a complex mix of those who had personal issues of their own with what twi offered as a life style set of rules that got so warped people got hurt. but to say it was all about twi and they condoned it set it up and even arranged such truama is beyond reasonable to me.
Shaze
I had those kind of surprises often in raising my children I had a day care go out of business in the middle of the day and forget to call me (this was before cell phones of course) so when I went to the school YES this was in a public school day care! the state troopers where caring for my children!!!! I tell ya it was a good thing they had left the building and the only folks left had badges I was so angry . this was a very fine day care that was started for the teachers children on campus and they all had masters and they walked out on the kids .
"thatis what Im saying exactly that is was a complex mix of those who had personal issues of their own with what twi offered as a life style set of rules that got so warped people got hurt. but to say it was all about twi and they condoned it set it up and even arranged such truama is beyond reasonable to me. "
It may be what you intended to say, but it did not communicate that way across the screen. It communicated very much as if you were simply blaming the parents. Additionally, you presume and assume you know what those personal issues were and are, when you do not. What you end up doing is projecting your own issues all over everyone else!
I think most of us parents know we made mistakes (and what parent doesn't, anyway), some of us made huge mistakes. Yes we had and have personal issues, again who does not? BUT the point of this thread was that TWI did condone and cover-up abuse. Hell they TAUGHT us to abuse our children. They TAUGHT us to hit our two year old children with wooden spoons if they did not sit quietly through fellowship.
My ex left bruises on my son with that damned spoon. When I went to leadership about it the response was, "well, sometimes that is what it takes to get a child's attention."
I stopped it, by pointing out to my ex that the state was going to take our children away, if it continued.
So again, the point of this particular thread isn't, what personal issues did you have that made you so suseptible to TWI doctrine, the point of this particular thread was about the behavior of those in charge, what they taught, what they covered up, etc.
or so you 'naively' thought...should this board place blame on 'you' for being misled? If we are to judge by your own standards, that would have to be answered, "yes".
My God, I am so thankful I didn't get married and raise a family until after I left the way.
I was a "Mr. Mom" - I quit my job to stay home to take care of my kids (my wife earned 5-6X more than I had at the time) - it was a choice from which I haven't fully recovered financially, but damn it, it was well worth it.
I was lucky to able to do that - I understand that today's warped economy oft requires the situation that both parents work (or even tougher, one parent if a single parent), placing them in the daycare dilemma, which I think may be another factor for the rise in child abuse throughout our society. It's tough being a parent nowadays, more so, I think, than it was for our parents.
ok a day care going out of business in a very untimely manner is a little different than thinking being abused is ok or slapping your children with a weapon I think. it was not my choice it was theirs to leave the building unsupervised, what happened was is the owner decided and told the workers she was unable to pay them early in the day so they walked out on the job after telephoning the police.. I had zero say so in the manner and I was angry.
A person who left their kids so much (babies even) to attend twi classes and function who compromised the financial securty of the family to support twi, and allowing your children or beating your children is abuse by a choice from the parents. Twi encouraged what they offered of course they did it was in a money making business and put"God first" . but it was always the parents choice how how to place their children in their life..
I do not think most people in the way condoned child abuse did i see child abuse yep plenty of cult hungry idots willing to do anything to belong. I saw many good parents and fine people as well .
I think the fact an individual goes to a group such as what twi offered for family consel or advice speaks on the fact of how lost many where in twi, and co-dependent looking for answers in the wrong place. I never asked twi for advice I did have friends I spoke to clergy adn I still consdier them friends but I was adult enough to realize my own responsibility to self and my family .
many many in twi were not . that is why many were forced to leave because they would not cope with the exspectations twi had for their life. it may be for the best if personal problems were at a point you could not manage your life without their say so.
Leaders in twi today still compromise their life I think they still do things that damage their life and it still makes it more difficult for them to compete in todays world but I have spoke to enough of them and they truly believe it is for Gods glory no matter the cost. who am I to say any different for their life?
but don't you think you're saying a lot for others' lives besides your own ? not having been in their shoes ?
quote:I never asked twi for advice I did have friends I spoke to clergy adn I still consdier them friends but I was adult enough to realize my own responsibility to self and my family
this is what i don't quite understand. you were adult enough, well congratulations. were you ever deceived by being in a cult or cultoffshoot (same thing really) ?
I can be decieved every day of my life Ex. But that has nothing to do with making the active choice to hit my kid or allow another to do so. that is a choice in life each individual must make , so what I hear you saying is well jo jo told me it was ok so I did it..
come on if jo jo told you to jump off a bridge would you do it?
twi never taught abuse was ok or molestation was ok. if you chose to listen to idiots can you really blame the idots? who is the idot exactly ? ya know?
not having the same shoes?
well like Mr. T says
I do pity the fools ...
we all must answer to the Lord for what we have done clearly. My point is some here like to blame others for what they themself decided to do .. you want pity sure here is some. pity never helped me grow strong ,faith in Christ did tho, and the ability to recognize my own errors and learn to trust HIM who would never hurt you.
After I was marked I still went to twi things I still would but i think I really ....ed one of them off so they have not called lately.. lol
the off shoots well I was still thinking these folks believe like I do you know like mind and all so I did search for "fellowship" then when I heard and witness behaviours that were not the same as I would call it I left sadly to be true to my self. I learned that is where any type of peace come from in life to be true to what I know is right for me..
I do not blame anyone I never did . including myself for mistakes made in life.
I will testify this about your point Ex.
it is very difficult to heed the Lords Call for your life when you desire something altogether different and have convinced yourself your right because of your friends or other pressures in life. But is what we are to do. Jesus had a difficult time with people as well people he thought he could trust and they disappointed him several times... but he still listened to His Father God Almighty and sought truth from the scripture and prayer.
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
mj412
Again with the twist.
My point is I do not think leaders openly allowed children to be molested or do I think they "condoned " molestation . Did they take action against people you had a problem with? maybe not that would be your job as a parent not a bible research group to get involved in your personal accusations and affairs..I know they did get involved in peoplels life yet they seldom went out of the ministry for problems to be solved and get involved in court and having people arrested. they did not stop anyone from going to the law , they may not have encouraged it if it was not something they agreed with.
Abigail
you say you where forbid well now they hand tied your ability to find a baby sitter and forced you to chose someone who was in question... or is it you felt pressure to belong and make the group happy and obeyed somone suggestion fearing they will not accept you or your husband would get angry Personal problems over ruled your better judgement and you compromised your childrens safety for twi?
I saw that alot many parents lost their ability to keep their children safe to be involved in twi. it is sad indeed.
I have raised teens a child can legaly have sex when he she is 17 years old... a teen or young adult who again compromises her self and regrets a bad choice learns a very tough leson indeed. but the law supercedes twi law and rape has been illegal for many years authorities could have been accessed by those who felt they had been violated. but apparently they were not for personal reasons again... the personal desire to belong to twi . or ignorance . or fear these sad stories happen all over the place eveyday to children who had parents who never instructed or protected their children from what this world offers as "love" or consel or caring or whatever name abuse may take on.
to not report abuse or rape is bad and sad and that is why maybe more incidents were allowed to continue on other girls or boys.
I also know parents can not be with their children all the time I was a working mom .. but we can tell our children to tell and then TELL our own self to make it stop. sure it is pressure and difficult if it is a family member or a person in your churchy group but it is a parents job.
The fact a twi leader told you to keep quietand you chose to obey their instruction would indicate to me a much more serious problem within the individual who has the precious job of taking care of innocent children.
my only point in this thread is I do not believe the leaders of twi condoned or encouraged child molestation , I do not believe twi set out to harbor crimes against children or take care of those who did. Do I think men will have sex with a sweet young girl who is willing ? you bet! do I think young girls are niave and at times seeking from older males giving them attention? YEP! Do I think people regret choices they make when they compromise themself sexualy ? yes sadly sometimes for a life time.. but it does not have to be so. do I think people get caught up in belonging to a group and listen to the wrong people in what is good for their life? yes it happens everyday.
as far as stupid parents and niave teens and sexual abuse Yes it did happen probably more than anyone wants to know , this type of activity is common in our culture as a whole and twi had "new" people coming and going all the time and had a structure of people pleasing and group think mentality. a ripe forest for child molestation and abuse. Many stupid people with personal problems and history of abuse sought out consel from twi leaders, and what the leaders was for the most part was other stupid people with personal baggage and personal problems .
personal responsibility in life and ability to make good choices for ones self is a growing up process, and much forgivness is neede to continue on in a healthy peaceful happy life.
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mj412
I guess what I do not get is the fact parents would or could allow TWI any say so over who watched their kids.. they never demanded your kids go to a certain place you could have made other arrangements. In the early eighties "childrens fellowship" was huge at the limb meeting hundreds of children often times..I left my children with my mom on these occasions untill they were old enough to speak clearly about what they did and with whom .
they enjoyed going at that point. MY own twig leader would take her children to a babysitters house (somone not in the way) when they held fellowship at their house.
no one forced anyone to have their children left with another Im certain a "friend" may have offered their services hmmm ok again if it was a young child I would make my own arrangements with those I trusted. I never saw any demand for parents to force their children to be babysat for free.. or is it more like you wanted to "take the class" and couldnt find a sitter and the happy household volunteered their service and you gladly took them up on it ? and assumed all was well?
I also know if someone is arrested for sexual abuse it does not mean they were convicted...or even guilty maybe he was I know not of your current highlighted story in AK.
But if a person is convicted it is often the case they must stay away from all children as part of their parole and clearly "runing a childrens fellowship " would be in violation of such.
this is how I feel about it my children where given to me to take care of not twi or its leaders.. it was an honor to have such a long and very difficult job and God was our saving grace through much. I am very sorry for the parents without the ability to see the honor and righteousness of such a calling goes above and beyond any group bible or not.
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CoolWaters
The fact that a Branch Leader not only perpetrated the crimes but was tried, convicted and imprisoned...this doesn't make you think that leaders openly allowed children to be molested?
Hmmm...then what exactly do the words Branch Leader mean?
OK, so I kept my daughter away from the man. Beyond that I was supposed to keep my mouth shut and let him continue to run a children's fellowship? That I was not supposed to take it to the highest authorities? That it was too bad, so sad if the other parents weren't as bright as I was?
Hmmmm...so exactly how are parents supposed to know somebody is a known child molester if the victim's parents keep their mouths shut?
Yep...you've got that one right.
Here you are dead wrong. Not only did twi people steal evidence from my home, twi people sat in front of my home for several nights after telling me that I would die for going outside of "the body".
Hey, selective reader...I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT TEENAGERS. (Yeah...I'm yelling...because you obviously can't hear very well.)
The children I've been talking about were from the ages of 3yo to 7yo.
Then why not just say that and leave it at that? Why go to all the effort to discredit anybody who knows better....except that old dogs can't be taught new tricks.
Yeah..."young girls"...7 year olds? 3 year olds?
This is just plain sickness of the brain.
Hey, selective reader...I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT TEENAGERS. (Yeah...I'm yelling...because you obviously can't hear very well.)
Basically, this post of yours...like nearly all of the other posts of yours...sums up to say...
"You were stupid parents. Your little girls wanted the attention of those men. Even if you did go to the authorities, even if the guy did get arrested, even if you kept your children safe from it ever happening again, you should keep your mouth shut and not tell other parents whose children are exposed to the perpetrator. And whatever you do, it's stupid to expect a pedophile's boss to stop placing that pedophile in a position of authority over children. Shut up about all of this or I'm going call you stupid and immature and tell everybody what lousy parents you are."
WTG, mj. Your example of exactly how twi dealt with leadership who were also pedophiles is better than others trying to explain how it all went down.
Gawd I gotta love you! You just make communicating twi's mentality so much easier sometimes! Thank you, {{{{{mj}}}}}.
:)-->
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Steve!
Someone get mj412 a diaper, or a barfbag, or something.
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waywayout(of The Way)
You know what? There are a tremendous amount of men who WILL NOT have sex with that girl also - the difference being, they take responsibilty for their actions and are decent human beings rather than predators. Child molestors only 'use' the excuse that the kid enticed them. How is it a little girl (or boy for that matter), is sexier than a full grown woman anyway?
And TWI is to blame - they have always purported themselves to be a safe harbor for God's people. Let's not let our hindsight of being involved in this toxic group become blurry and idealistic. It was a living he11 on earth or we'd still be involved.
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excathedra
well thank you waywayout, i was going to bring up this remark of mj's
i think i was once a sweet young girl. do freshmen girls in college count ? but i was not willing or seeking sexual attention from wierwille -- fatherly attention, yes; MOG pastor counselor attention, yes
i can't even remember how i got to the back of the coach, etc.
makes me sad
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha makes me sad it happened, not that i can't remember !!!!! lol
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mj412
I doubt I would still be involved and I never was "involved" to the point of self destruction .
Excathedra it is very important the fact you can not remember what happened to you and how, it may be blocked by the truama, our thoughts only handle what they are able to survive intact. sometimes a block is made to erase from the formost part to survive something the brain does not think it can survive with .
this is why conseling and talking about truamas are so imediate , why they send conselors grief and otherwise to survivors of 911 and the school shooting or even the death of a class mate in the schools. the hospitals have crisis counselors for victims of crimes and rape and truama who write notes that can be very useful in the post mental health care that is needed. To say you do not remember may indicate a inability to process information you do have inside yourself. this is not a healthy response Excathedra a common one but not healthy as the pain and experience is valid and working every minute in your thoughts and unless dealt with can cause a life time of trouble you may never connect with just why you think the way you do or react in a manner you do to the original problem or truama. to not remember is more dangerous and capable of providing harm than to deal directly with the depression and truama with a professional who can help you cope and have a healthy life .
it is not funny it is no way to cope , I hope you seek help to resolve this problem and I pray you find the strength to overcome and work with yourself and a professional to be happy and at peace with all of you.
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excathedra
thank you mj
i have counseling
i believe the reason i can't remember getting to the back of the coach could be the drinks i was served in the front
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mj412
yes I was going to ask if alcohol was involved. or drugs..
it makes a difference IM glad you seek help to cope with the issues your youth presented itself with.
my sister was run over by a car when we were teens she was drunk she does not remember it and she was awake in the emergency room. I was not drunk I have remembered the blood the emergency procedures and her screams and the fear she was dead for over forty years... I think she is better off not remembering. I still hate walking along side of a busy highway .
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Abigail
"you say you where forbid well now they hand tied your ability to find a baby sitter and forced you to chose someone who was in question... or is it you felt pressure to belong and make the group happy and obeyed somone suggestion fearing they will not accept you or your husband would get angry Personal problems over ruled your better judgement and you compromised your childrens safety for twi?"
Uh, no, it wasn't about "making the group" happy MJ. Although there was an aspect regarding making my husband happy because when he wasn't happy he could get quite abusive.
It was more about the fact that I actually believed (for a time) what was taught. You know, if you don't obey your husband then you do not have God's protection and in a situation such as who to leave my kids with it would mean they didn't have God's protection either.
"The fact a twi leader told you to keep quietand you chose to obey their instruction would indicate to me a much more serious problem within the individual who has the precious job of taking care of innocent children."
I don't know why I bother addressing you. It is such a waste of time because you have your head so far up your *** you can't see anything but your own s**t. It wasn't about people pleasing, that may be your own problem and your own projections, but it wasn't mine. It was about believing the twisted crap they taught and yes, THAT was a serious problem. One I am thankful to say, I have overcome.
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excathedra
mj i'm sorry about your sister
**
mj, look at what you said
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mj412
why eles would somone leave their children with folks they questioned as safe ? why eles would they not listen to their children or teach their children how to be safe regardless of who ever may hurt them? they lacked the ability Ex, to keep their children safe for the sake of the group and its approval and Im sorry for that.
To be intimidated because you need to belong or obey another at the cost of compromising children, their safety or well being would never be Gods will for anyones life it just isnt common sense it is cult like behaviour that is instilled in the parent willing to compromise for group think or people pleasing behaviour or fear or ignorance. for me the most important job I had or ever will have is helping my children grew up to be well and safe no group or intimidation could stop that as a priority #1 . I feel it was a job with honor and righteousness granted by God and I am truly sorry for parents unable to see or live that in their families and got hurt.
neither cruel or ignorant .
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mj412
plenty and I mean to say plenty of divorce in twi, I understand you thought what you did was right , I saw more divorce in twi than I did marriages and that is the truth, I saw people leaving their families to marry into another all together corps as well. the fact you were in an abusive relationship tells alot about where you where at scary isnt it? NY just passed a law that states if a parents allows a child to witness abuse they will be taken from the home imediately . I think it is a good law. some would say it is blaming the victim. Somone has to protect the children in those types of households and obviously the parents being abused or the one abusing is incapable.
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shazdancer
mj, you said
Trouble is, that was NOT what was being described here. People were leaving their children with what they were told were experienced child care workers who also loved God. The parents didn't do a police check on these guys before leaving their children with them. Then, when the children reported they'd been molested, the parents got the children away from those guys and reported them!Sheesh, they did the right thing, and you want to say the parents were negligent? Have YOU ever taken a caregiver's fingerprints before leaving your children? Of course not. You listen to credible recommendations. They thought they had a good referral from a godly organization. Surprise....
Shaz
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Abigail
We have similar laws here in Michigan, MJ, and yes, it is a good law.
One of the reasons I got out of TWI (and there was certainly more than one) and my marriage, was for my children. It just took me some time and counselling, to figure it out and work up the courage to do it.
It also meant taking the chance the devil was going to kill me, but if it wasn't the devil it might have been my ex. So, ya do whatchya gotta.
"I understand you thought what you did was right"
Yes, I did, as I do now. See, if it had all been about people pleasing I would spend my whole life being screwed, wouldn't I. Cause you never can please all the people. There are those who would condemn me for getting divorced and accepting help from the government to make sure my childrens' medical needs are met too.
If I was worried about what those people thought, my seven year old would be in a whole heap of trouble, medically.
There were certainly those in TWI who were more concerned about pleasing people than they should have been. However, I suspect the majority of people did the things they did because they genuinely believed they were doing God's word and genuinely feared the consequences (from the devil) of not doing God's word.
This would include those who had abortions, even though in their hearts they didn't really want to. Those who used that damned spoon even though in their hearts, didn't really want to. It may even include some who turned a blind eye to even worse situations.
The thing that gets you when you are in a cult, and is one of the most difficult areas to overcome, is learning to trust yourself either again or for the first time.
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rascal
I don`t get why this thread has swerved from the very real abuse suffered by children at the hands of members of twi to the parents having to defend themselves against mj.
See it`s just like with the abuse any of us guys...girls...children suffered in twi...we were decieved into trusting the perpetrators....thats why perpetrators are successfull mj, they are GOOD at what they do...the ones with poor skills are caught and jailed.
We trusted these people because they had a good schtick ...they introduced us to God...we thought that they were honorable in their intentions ....sure it was naieve to trust but naieve is a far cry from stupid or criminal a far cry from the picture that you are painting of parents mj.
Children suffered in twi period...and all of the condemnation and guilt that you attempt to heap on parents with your mischaracterisation changes this fact not one iota.
Your attempts to draw attention away from ...and mitigate the evil visited on these poor kiddoes by attempting to heap the guilt and pointing your vile finger of blame on poor harried parents who were only trying to do their very best to serve God is unconscionable mj.
See I understand child abuse from the kids point of view outside of twi....it is always someone the parents trust...someone in good standing with the neighbors and friends...with plausible excuses for spending time with the children...they are cunning...sick ...vile people who get their kicks from hurting....THEY ARE THE GUILTY ONES!!!! ...Geeze and here you are yet again blaming the ones decieved...the ones hurt...the innocents....
Your callousness as well as complete lack of comprehension regarding the reality of what was endured and why is bewildering.
I understand oldies....I know who he is and why he feels that he needs to defend twi...I understand his agenda....you however I haven`t figured out...I feel that you are abysmaly ignorant concerning these subjects you feel so constrained to condemn us in.
I sure wish that you would stop beating up the victims of these crimes.
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mj412
Rascal
you address me nearly everytime in your posts by name. it seems to me your the one who is directing comments .
Abby
thatis what Im saying exactly that is was a complex mix of those who had personal issues of their own with what twi offered as a life style set of rules that got so warped people got hurt. but to say it was all about twi and they condoned it set it up and even arranged such truama is beyond reasonable to me.
Shaze
I had those kind of surprises often in raising my children I had a day care go out of business in the middle of the day and forget to call me (this was before cell phones of course) so when I went to the school YES this was in a public school day care! the state troopers where caring for my children!!!! I tell ya it was a good thing they had left the building and the only folks left had badges I was so angry . this was a very fine day care that was started for the teachers children on campus and they all had masters and they walked out on the kids .
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Abigail
"thatis what Im saying exactly that is was a complex mix of those who had personal issues of their own with what twi offered as a life style set of rules that got so warped people got hurt. but to say it was all about twi and they condoned it set it up and even arranged such truama is beyond reasonable to me. "
It may be what you intended to say, but it did not communicate that way across the screen. It communicated very much as if you were simply blaming the parents. Additionally, you presume and assume you know what those personal issues were and are, when you do not. What you end up doing is projecting your own issues all over everyone else!
I think most of us parents know we made mistakes (and what parent doesn't, anyway), some of us made huge mistakes. Yes we had and have personal issues, again who does not? BUT the point of this thread was that TWI did condone and cover-up abuse. Hell they TAUGHT us to abuse our children. They TAUGHT us to hit our two year old children with wooden spoons if they did not sit quietly through fellowship.
My ex left bruises on my son with that damned spoon. When I went to leadership about it the response was, "well, sometimes that is what it takes to get a child's attention."
I stopped it, by pointing out to my ex that the state was going to take our children away, if it continued.
So again, the point of this particular thread isn't, what personal issues did you have that made you so suseptible to TWI doctrine, the point of this particular thread was about the behavior of those in charge, what they taught, what they covered up, etc.
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waywayout(of The Way)
or so you 'naively' thought...should this board place blame on 'you' for being misled? If we are to judge by your own standards, that would have to be answered, "yes".
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TheInvisibleDan
My God, I am so thankful I didn't get married and raise a family until after I left the way.
I was a "Mr. Mom" - I quit my job to stay home to take care of my kids (my wife earned 5-6X more than I had at the time) - it was a choice from which I haven't fully recovered financially, but damn it, it was well worth it.
I was lucky to able to do that - I understand that today's warped economy oft requires the situation that both parents work (or even tougher, one parent if a single parent), placing them in the daycare dilemma, which I think may be another factor for the rise in child abuse throughout our society. It's tough being a parent nowadays, more so, I think, than it was for our parents.
Don't vote for Republicans, dammit...
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mj412
ok a day care going out of business in a very untimely manner is a little different than thinking being abused is ok or slapping your children with a weapon I think. it was not my choice it was theirs to leave the building unsupervised, what happened was is the owner decided and told the workers she was unable to pay them early in the day so they walked out on the job after telephoning the police.. I had zero say so in the manner and I was angry.
A person who left their kids so much (babies even) to attend twi classes and function who compromised the financial securty of the family to support twi, and allowing your children or beating your children is abuse by a choice from the parents. Twi encouraged what they offered of course they did it was in a money making business and put"God first" . but it was always the parents choice how how to place their children in their life..
I do not think most people in the way condoned child abuse did i see child abuse yep plenty of cult hungry idots willing to do anything to belong. I saw many good parents and fine people as well .
I think the fact an individual goes to a group such as what twi offered for family consel or advice speaks on the fact of how lost many where in twi, and co-dependent looking for answers in the wrong place. I never asked twi for advice I did have friends I spoke to clergy adn I still consdier them friends but I was adult enough to realize my own responsibility to self and my family .
many many in twi were not . that is why many were forced to leave because they would not cope with the exspectations twi had for their life. it may be for the best if personal problems were at a point you could not manage your life without their say so.
Leaders in twi today still compromise their life I think they still do things that damage their life and it still makes it more difficult for them to compete in todays world but I have spoke to enough of them and they truly believe it is for Gods glory no matter the cost. who am I to say any different for their life?
it is their life.
as is yours.
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excathedra
but don't you think you're saying a lot for others' lives besides your own ? not having been in their shoes ?
this is what i don't quite understand. you were adult enough, well congratulations. were you ever deceived by being in a cult or cultoffshoot (same thing really) ?Link to comment
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mj412
I can be decieved every day of my life Ex. But that has nothing to do with making the active choice to hit my kid or allow another to do so. that is a choice in life each individual must make , so what I hear you saying is well jo jo told me it was ok so I did it..
come on if jo jo told you to jump off a bridge would you do it?
twi never taught abuse was ok or molestation was ok. if you chose to listen to idiots can you really blame the idots? who is the idot exactly ? ya know?
not having the same shoes?
well like Mr. T says
I do pity the fools ...
we all must answer to the Lord for what we have done clearly. My point is some here like to blame others for what they themself decided to do .. you want pity sure here is some. pity never helped me grow strong ,faith in Christ did tho, and the ability to recognize my own errors and learn to trust HIM who would never hurt you.
After I was marked I still went to twi things I still would but i think I really ....ed one of them off so they have not called lately.. lol
the off shoots well I was still thinking these folks believe like I do you know like mind and all so I did search for "fellowship" then when I heard and witness behaviours that were not the same as I would call it I left sadly to be true to my self. I learned that is where any type of peace come from in life to be true to what I know is right for me..
I do not blame anyone I never did . including myself for mistakes made in life.
I will testify this about your point Ex.
it is very difficult to heed the Lords Call for your life when you desire something altogether different and have convinced yourself your right because of your friends or other pressures in life. But is what we are to do. Jesus had a difficult time with people as well people he thought he could trust and they disappointed him several times... but he still listened to His Father God Almighty and sought truth from the scripture and prayer.
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excathedra
that's good, mj
we all grow and learn as we go on
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