JT, that's a very nice sentiment, but OM has not changed his MO one little bit from the time he first started posting.
First he will argue with whoever has a point of view that is Anti-TWI I.
Then when anyone responds he will dodge and distract.
He will also project the attitude that if he didn't see it personally, it didn't happen - never mind the countless firsthand reports here.
He will ask questions like "Where's your proof? Where's the documentation?" when he knows darn well that most of what happened was NOT written down.
And then finally he'll start pretending to understand, or he'll seem to almost start agreeing, only to lay off posting for a couple of days or weeks, and then come back and start all over again.
Slow to anger? No. Slow to comprehend that other people may have had experiences different than his own, and that those experiences are just as, and oftentimes more valid than, his own.
And when I say "slow", I mean that the RC church will allow priests to marry before OM actually changes his tune.
I can't believe how naieve I was about the sex going on around me.
I guess I just assumed from the time I got in to TWI that because it was a Christian organization, that duh, adultery was not tolerated, and certainly we did not have to discuss such things as extra marital sex at the leadership level of Christianity.
But later on in residence, I had another roomie, D*br* G*r*on. I could tell something was up with her. She was ditching classes and spending a lot of time under a sun lamp in our room. It seemed very important to her for some reason in the dead of winter to maintain a nice brown tan on areas of her body usually not seen by anyone but her. And she was emotionally upset. I could tell from time to time she had been crying.
She also seemed very nervous, and especially distracted. By what, I couldn't tell, but I didn't want to pry into her business. Besides, I had to keep up with leadership obligations I had to people in my branch, and she was in someone elses branch.
However, eventually, something broke. I came back to the room one day to find her hysterically in tears. I dropped what I was doing to find out what on earth was going on with her. I asked what was wrong. She replied "I'm being screwed by guys!"
Now, I can understand being "screwed over" by a guy. What gal hasn't been? But I wanted clarification. I asked "Do you mean that figuratively or literally?"
She sobbed "Literally!"
Floored again, that this could be happening at this "level" of "leadership" in God's Way Corps.
She said she was literally being screwed by guys, PLURAL. And whatever she was going through was eating her alive inside.
Again, believing this was something that needed to be immediately addressed, I told her I would have to talk to her branch coordinator about this and she should confide in him and he would help counsel her in this matter.
So, I talked to her branch coordinator about the issue, and I did observe him taking her aside, talking with her, and keeping her close by for a couple of weeks. So I let the issue drop. I never asked for details, because I felt that it was none of my business, that it was something she would handle with her BC and the people involved. So I don't know what the outcome was.
But that let me know that there was some serious screwing around in the Corps. But I figured, hey, you confront it, take care of it when it happens, and be forgiving and let people recoup and get back on the right track.
What wrong impressions I had.
My final year in the Corps, I actually walked in on a couple lying in each other's arms. Both were married, but not to each other.
Shocked, I shut the door and walked out. But I walked immediately to the Corps Coordinator B*b :M*r*b*t* and told him exactly what I had walked in on, and there was no mistaking it. B*b was as shocked as I was, (or at least I thought he was?) and said he would handle it with the couple and Rev. Wr*nn, the Campus Corps Coordinator.
That night at dinner, the two married couples names are read off to immediately report to Rev. Wrenn after dinner. I think "Aha. It will be correctly confronted and taken care of." Boy was I disappointed.
Next day, my TC comes up to me and rips me a new one for getting into somebody elses' business, and accuses ME of having sex with my fiance (which BTW never happened until our wedding night)! My TC and his wife were particularly hostile to me after that.
So much for it being confronted. In fact, extra marital sex was condoned, except when it became public knowlege-- then people got upset. But beware if you are the person blowing the whistle... you are the most likely to get burned in the deal.
I catch them in an adulterous act, and I, I am the bad guy.
You tell me if this stuff was rampant and condoned at the highest levels.
I wish I could count how many times I've heard the same story from different people, and even lived it myself.
There were 2 "way ministries" going on. The public one, and the private one. One of the greatest things that came out of the great poop was that alot of us started comparing stories and talking about things that once made us go "hmmm."
The amazing thing to me is that here we are, all these years later, (going on 2 decades for moi) and it's still NEWS to some.
OM Why don't you ask your sister she also knows where the bodies are buried. Why do you think she had disdain for your beloved VP. She was the one to type and dealt with all the behind the cutain TWI.
OM I pray for you and hope the scales are lifted from your eyes. It was never good. You just refuse to see it was what it was. A pervert that loved another God than the one I love.
Funny how you a quick to damn Loy for being bad but refuse to your idol VP. You sort of fit in the camp with Mike.
Heck, I wish I could have known then what I know now :D-->
When Wierwille died, and the POP was read and the poopoo hit the fan, and the letters went out, and lines were drawn in the sand....I was not involved in TWI. We had a run-in with our Limb Coordinators and just stopped going to stuff for a while. We weren't against TWI, or Wierwille, or PFAL...we just thought that the LC was a jerk.
In 1990 we decide that's it's time to go back. Our oldest was old enough to take PFAL, we were kind of missing the fellowship, the Rock of Ages, etc.
We knew people on both sides of the fence. Frankly, neither side did a very good job of communicating to me why they came down on the side that they did. I didn't hear any stories like Rascal's or others here at GS, just some vague things about the Trustees "not coming back to the Word", but nothing specific. The LCM loyalists weren't much better.
Of course Martindale's "Galatians Tapes" were full of vague generalities. Oh, they were very specific about what devil spirits Martrindale claimed Geer was full of, but short on details.
I took a shot and stuck with the "official" TWI, reasoning that Martindale was Wierwille's appointee, and Mrs Wierwille stuck with Martindale...
If I'd only known. I wouldn't have thrown in with that adulterous, spitting, delusional, "MOG". I would have spared my family all that grief.
Know then what I know now. No question. I'd have never gotten re-involved.
I have to step in here. Please...leave OM's sister(s) out of this. He is his own man, his sisters are their are their "own women"...if you have questions about that please private topic either one of us.
I spent 9 years on staff at hq...I know where plenty of "bodies are buried." Being on staff is NO GUARANTEE of knowing ANYTHING. Those of us that worked there were on our own agenda's, had our own lives, our own feelings, our own perspectives.
Radar
Oldies, sorry for speaking on your behalf. I apologize, p/t me if you need to.
The thing to remember I guess is that by 1990, the A-word was verboten. The adultery stuff came out in 86, when John S. wrote his paper, and anybody who dared ask questions, and talk about it, got the ax. Everybody who knew anything concrete was long gone by 90, or so we thought. That's when most of my friends and family either got fired or resigned.
Evidently, the whole adultery issure came up again in the mid 90's when lcm and others were confronted again. And people left when they learned the truth.
Honestly, what I've never figured out, is how the word didn't get out the first time. I mean, I thought EVERYBODY KNEW.
In my little circle of waydom, and exwaydom, (and please remember I wasn't anybody "important") we figured anybody that stayed in after the loyalty oath, knew about the adultery, but didn't care enuff to "take a stand" about it. I know different now, but can't quite put the pieces together. -->
The amazing thing to me is that here we are, all these years later, (going on 2 decades for moi) and it's still NEWS to some.
The adultery stuff came out in 86, when John S. wrote his paper, and anybody who dared ask questions, and talk about it, got the ax.
Honestly, what I've never figured out, is how the word didn't get out the first time. I mean, I thought EVERYBODY KNEW.
Ex10,
I think you've just uncovered the answer as to why some of DID NOT KNOW until recently about all this stuff - PEOPLE WHO KNEW WERE AFRAID TO TALK. I never knew any of this stuff until the last two years.
Also, I also believe some that DID KNOW didn't think it was a big deal.
And, of course, there was the LBT. (Lock Box Theology) -->
When the Schoenheit paper was "published" saying that sexual adultery was wrong, the Way condemned Schoenheit verbally, in writing, trashing him and telling people they should NOT EVEN READ THE PAPER BECAUSE READING IT "COULD UNDERMINE THE WORD OF GOD AND EVERYTHING THAT DR WIERWILLE HAS TAUGHT US."
This is exactly what people were told. Unbelievable!!! Unless you faced it in person, it is impossible to relate. If you had questions, people did not want to talk with you about it. And if you talked about it... they would not believe you unless it was a VERY close friend.
I told my branch coordinator that no one was going to tell me what I could and could not read. My credibility was questioned and two other corps people were sent to talk to me to help me get "spiritually right."
After locating a copy of "the paper" which was not easy to get back then, after reading it, I told people that all it said was sexual adultery was wrong in every administration.....they did not believe that was the topic of "the paper" and still would not read it (especially the Corps) because of the fear motivation coming out from Way headquarters.
I still have copies of some of the letters that people wrote to LCM and others questioning sexual adultery. Different answers were given to different people depending on your status within the Way.
Already at this time (late 1986 or early 1987) it was a your with us or against us mentality, unless of course, the limb coordinator decided to leave.....then people usually followed.
In my opinion, very few people did any thinking for themselves, less took any action, and the ones that did take action the result was.... MANY MANY GODLY, LOVING, GOOD, CHRISTIAN WOMEN AND MEN WHO TOOK A STAND AGAINST THE HYPOCRISY WERE FIRED, LIED ABOUT, AND KICKED OUT OR FORCED TO RESIGN WITH NO ONE TO TALK TO BECAUSE VERY FEW PEOPLE WOULD BELIEVE THEM (caps for emphasis). Some with 20+ years of service.
Geeze, this stuff gets deep. I too, still have copies of the paper, and all the correspondence that went along with it. Signed and dated. Copies of letters from Ralph D., John L., John S., Bo R., his brother, Robert B., to name a few. It's the only waycrap I've saved over the years. HA! Waygb, please take note. :D-->
The funny thing is, I thought the paper was dircted at LCM, Howard and Don. I had no idea VP was involved at the time.
So when psychogeer mandated that everyone who read it or passed it on should be fired, I couldn't at first figure it out. OK, it took me about an hour. :D-->
Having nothing to lose, being already "just a twig leader" and having no aspirations to be anything else, we made mega copies and passed it on to everyone whose address we had.
More people than you think had copies of it, and knew what was going on, they just didn't want to admit it. Of course anyone who wasn't on waypay, had nothing to lose. It was those who were afraid of "losing their jobs," that acted blind, deaf, and dumb. And of course, some of our twiggies who couldn't believe it. But that's a different story altogether.
The word was definitely out. And you're right. Very few people were willing to "go to bat" for the cause. But those who did, I admire still to this day. They had the chutzpah to speak up for what they believed in, no matter what it cost them personally!
Oh yeah, and another thing. Many of the so called 'leaders" still left at the way, were players in the whole adultery thing. That's why they are still there, in my not so humble opinion. Either they are being blackmailed into staying, or they are just plain afraid that their dirty little secrets will get out if they leave.
Even people who have no vested interest in staying with TWI (i.e. not involved in the abuses) will sometimes rationalize staying in despite knowledge of problems.
Look at people who stayed in after the April 2000 lawsuit announcement. TWI announced that Martindale was having an "affair" with a married woman, they kicked him out, yet still run his class. And people STILL stick with TWI.
Others may criticize you but I'd like to have more friends like you. Quick to communicate and slow to judge.
JustThinking,
Thanks so much for the compliment. I have to say though, in all honesty, I don't see myself as being slow to judge...I think I've done my fair share of judging, which is why I get a fair amount of criticism. But thanks for your kind words.
quote:So you can figure from that point, Craig had already practiced adultery "If you can handle it" often enough to make it a doctrine to teach to The Way Corps, specifically my room mate M*rsh*, on her first day in residence.
I never knew the Corps tolerated adultery and still have mixed feelings about it. How can they honestly tolerate something that's such a betrayal of trust. I know I've heard the stupid excuses, like "shaking hands" and whatnot. I knew we tolerated fornication...and that issue seemed to be always dealt with as a private matter between, um, the fornicating parties.
But still and all, I think the adultery issue is irrelevant to Craig's 1989 request for commitment and loyalty to move the Word, at least where I was and the state I was in. Sex was not an issue. If it was an issue, I would have known about it back then, confronted it, and that's that.
quote:We knew people on both sides of the fence. Frankly, neither side did a very good job of communicating to me why they came down on the side that they did. I didn't hear any stories like Rascal's or others here at GS, just some vague things about the Trustees "not coming back to the Word", but nothing specific. The LCM loyalists weren't much better.
...
Know then what I know now. No question. I'd have never gotten re-involved.
Oakspear, thanks for confirming the vagueness. I also see your point about not being involved after that. My actions would have been a little different; I would have stayed involved locally (if I was with honest folks) but not contributed any more money to hq unless and until my questions/complaints were answered satisfactorily.
I have to step in here. Please...leave OM's sister(s) out of this. He is his own man, his sisters are their are their "own women"...if you have questions about that please private topic either one of us.
Radar, thanks, and you are correct. They can get involved if they want, but they want no part of this.
I personally would love to hear from the Wierwille's and what they think of all this, but it seems they're in the same boat, they don't want to get involved. But I'd still like to hear their perspectives.
Commitment and loyalty to one whom repeatedly showed himself unworthey of that trust???
We had no problem being committed to God`s ministry OR helping move God`s word...but THAT WASN`T WHAT HE DEMANDED!!!!
YOU oldies man, are changing what was said.
Our commitment to God and twi meant nothing and was not permitted UNLESS we swore loyalty to lcm ..the MAN!!!!
We were not allowed to BE believers unless we swore loyalty to that MAN!!!
This MAN repeatedly showed his lack of spirituality...lack of perception....lack of morality...and yet WE weren`t going to be allowed to be participants in twi unless swearing an oath of loyalty to him...
WE never changed in our stands...we never changed in our commitment...we never stopped loving God or teaching his word to peaple...we never slowed down in our participation of outreach...but THAT was not good enough....not to be permitted...only...blind loyal obedience to lcm was acceptable....
When we tried to carry on our spiritual responsibilities we were stopped cold..we tried to remain committed to twi ...tried to honor our commtment to God...and were not wanted... were not to be loved.... were not to be tolerated.....unless or untill we swore an oath of loyalty to a man....it was black mail pure and simple...
Once again oldies....you are trying to make an unconscionable act appear reasonable....no way...
quote:So you can figure from that point, Craig had already practiced adultery "If you can handle it" often enough to make it a doctrine to teach to The Way Corps, specifically my room mate M*rsh*, on her first day in residence.
I never knew the Corps tolerated adultery and still have mixed feelings about it. How can they honestly tolerate something that's such a betrayal of trust. I know I've heard the stupid excuses, like "shaking hands" and whatnot. I knew we tolerated fornication...and that issue seemed to be always dealt with as a private matter between, um, the fornicating parties.
But still and all, I think the adultery issue is irrelevant to Craig's 1989 request for commitment and loyalty to move the Word, at least where I was and the state I was in. Sex was not an issue. If it was an issue, I would have known about it back then, confronted it, and that's that.
Excuse me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mixed feelings about adultry!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please explain what these "mixed feelings" are.
Anything less than disgust, anger, betrayal, shock is contemtable.
Leadership is supposed to set an example.
We now know the type of leadership that twi set.
IMO, It seems that the only "god" that these men worshiped is that they must have thought was a "god" between there legs. Maybe, that's why some of these people were/are pricks.
quote:When we tried to carry on our spiritual responsibilities we were stopped cold..we tried to remain committed to twi ...tried to honor our commtment to God...and were not wanted... were not to be loved.... were not to be tolerated.....
Because it appears the missing ingredient, was your willingness to at least give Craig the benefit of the doubt and declare you'd be willing to stand with him in the movement of the Word.
One of the points I tried to make with VF, was that if his commitment level to TWI and God and the Word was so strong, vital, and sure, why would he allow Craig's request to stop him from doing what he really wanted to do; i.e., move the Word in TWI? So in that sense, Rascal, if you wanted so desperately to remain with TWI moving the Word, why not just give in a little, and do what he asked, which was:
quote:make up your mind whether you are going to stand with us as Staff moving God's Word or go the route that has been set in the last couple of years, which I believe has gone very sour.
It's not mixed feelings about adultery being wrong, but mixed feelings about these folks tolerating it. It's hard to imagine something being so wrong, being tolerated and explained away like that.
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Steve!
JT, that's a very nice sentiment, but OM has not changed his MO one little bit from the time he first started posting.
First he will argue with whoever has a point of view that is Anti-TWI I.
Then when anyone responds he will dodge and distract.
He will also project the attitude that if he didn't see it personally, it didn't happen - never mind the countless firsthand reports here.
He will ask questions like "Where's your proof? Where's the documentation?" when he knows darn well that most of what happened was NOT written down.
And then finally he'll start pretending to understand, or he'll seem to almost start agreeing, only to lay off posting for a couple of days or weeks, and then come back and start all over again.
Slow to anger? No. Slow to comprehend that other people may have had experiences different than his own, and that those experiences are just as, and oftentimes more valid than, his own.
And when I say "slow", I mean that the RC church will allow priests to marry before OM actually changes his tune.
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Catcup
Another roomie story.
I can't believe how naieve I was about the sex going on around me.
I guess I just assumed from the time I got in to TWI that because it was a Christian organization, that duh, adultery was not tolerated, and certainly we did not have to discuss such things as extra marital sex at the leadership level of Christianity.
But later on in residence, I had another roomie, D*br* G*r*on. I could tell something was up with her. She was ditching classes and spending a lot of time under a sun lamp in our room. It seemed very important to her for some reason in the dead of winter to maintain a nice brown tan on areas of her body usually not seen by anyone but her. And she was emotionally upset. I could tell from time to time she had been crying.
She also seemed very nervous, and especially distracted. By what, I couldn't tell, but I didn't want to pry into her business. Besides, I had to keep up with leadership obligations I had to people in my branch, and she was in someone elses branch.
However, eventually, something broke. I came back to the room one day to find her hysterically in tears. I dropped what I was doing to find out what on earth was going on with her. I asked what was wrong. She replied "I'm being screwed by guys!"
Now, I can understand being "screwed over" by a guy. What gal hasn't been? But I wanted clarification. I asked "Do you mean that figuratively or literally?"
She sobbed "Literally!"
Floored again, that this could be happening at this "level" of "leadership" in God's Way Corps.
She said she was literally being screwed by guys, PLURAL. And whatever she was going through was eating her alive inside.
Again, believing this was something that needed to be immediately addressed, I told her I would have to talk to her branch coordinator about this and she should confide in him and he would help counsel her in this matter.
So, I talked to her branch coordinator about the issue, and I did observe him taking her aside, talking with her, and keeping her close by for a couple of weeks. So I let the issue drop. I never asked for details, because I felt that it was none of my business, that it was something she would handle with her BC and the people involved. So I don't know what the outcome was.
But that let me know that there was some serious screwing around in the Corps. But I figured, hey, you confront it, take care of it when it happens, and be forgiving and let people recoup and get back on the right track.
What wrong impressions I had.
My final year in the Corps, I actually walked in on a couple lying in each other's arms. Both were married, but not to each other.
Shocked, I shut the door and walked out. But I walked immediately to the Corps Coordinator B*b :M*r*b*t* and told him exactly what I had walked in on, and there was no mistaking it. B*b was as shocked as I was, (or at least I thought he was?) and said he would handle it with the couple and Rev. Wr*nn, the Campus Corps Coordinator.
That night at dinner, the two married couples names are read off to immediately report to Rev. Wrenn after dinner. I think "Aha. It will be correctly confronted and taken care of." Boy was I disappointed.
Next day, my TC comes up to me and rips me a new one for getting into somebody elses' business, and accuses ME of having sex with my fiance (which BTW never happened until our wedding night)! My TC and his wife were particularly hostile to me after that.
So much for it being confronted. In fact, extra marital sex was condoned, except when it became public knowlege-- then people got upset. But beware if you are the person blowing the whistle... you are the most likely to get burned in the deal.
I catch them in an adulterous act, and I, I am the bad guy.
You tell me if this stuff was rampant and condoned at the highest levels.
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ex10
ohmigosh Catcup
I wish I could count how many times I've heard the same story from different people, and even lived it myself.
There were 2 "way ministries" going on. The public one, and the private one. One of the greatest things that came out of the great poop was that alot of us started comparing stories and talking about things that once made us go "hmmm."
The amazing thing to me is that here we are, all these years later, (going on 2 decades for moi) and it's still NEWS to some.
There must be a lesson in here somewhere.
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excathedra
the lesson is..... we got fuked
very very very very very sad
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ex10
yeah, sisex
Our "wholesome Christian character" got taken for a pretty wild ride.
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Danny
OM Why don't you ask your sister she also knows where the bodies are buried. Why do you think she had disdain for your beloved VP. She was the one to type and dealt with all the behind the cutain TWI.
OM I pray for you and hope the scales are lifted from your eyes. It was never good. You just refuse to see it was what it was. A pervert that loved another God than the one I love.
Funny how you a quick to damn Loy for being bad but refuse to your idol VP. You sort of fit in the camp with Mike.
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Oakspear
Heck, I wish I could have known then what I know now
:D-->
When Wierwille died, and the POP was read and the poopoo hit the fan, and the letters went out, and lines were drawn in the sand....I was not involved in TWI. We had a run-in with our Limb Coordinators and just stopped going to stuff for a while. We weren't against TWI, or Wierwille, or PFAL...we just thought that the LC was a jerk.
In 1990 we decide that's it's time to go back. Our oldest was old enough to take PFAL, we were kind of missing the fellowship, the Rock of Ages, etc.
We knew people on both sides of the fence. Frankly, neither side did a very good job of communicating to me why they came down on the side that they did. I didn't hear any stories like Rascal's or others here at GS, just some vague things about the Trustees "not coming back to the Word", but nothing specific. The LCM loyalists weren't much better.
Of course Martindale's "Galatians Tapes" were full of vague generalities. Oh, they were very specific about what devil spirits Martrindale claimed Geer was full of, but short on details.
I took a shot and stuck with the "official" TWI, reasoning that Martindale was Wierwille's appointee, and Mrs Wierwille stuck with Martindale...
If I'd only known. I wouldn't have thrown in with that adulterous, spitting, delusional, "MOG". I would have spared my family all that grief.
Know then what I know now. No question. I'd have never gotten re-involved.
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Radar OReilly
DANNY!!!!!
I have to step in here. Please...leave OM's sister(s) out of this. He is his own man, his sisters are their are their "own women"...if you have questions about that please private topic either one of us.
I spent 9 years on staff at hq...I know where plenty of "bodies are buried." Being on staff is NO GUARANTEE of knowing ANYTHING. Those of us that worked there were on our own agenda's, had our own lives, our own feelings, our own perspectives.
Radar
Oldies, sorry for speaking on your behalf. I apologize, p/t me if you need to.
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ex10
Oak
The thing to remember I guess is that by 1990, the A-word was verboten. The adultery stuff came out in 86, when John S. wrote his paper, and anybody who dared ask questions, and talk about it, got the ax. Everybody who knew anything concrete was long gone by 90, or so we thought. That's when most of my friends and family either got fired or resigned.
Evidently, the whole adultery issure came up again in the mid 90's when lcm and others were confronted again. And people left when they learned the truth.
Honestly, what I've never figured out, is how the word didn't get out the first time. I mean, I thought EVERYBODY KNEW.
In my little circle of waydom, and exwaydom, (and please remember I wasn't anybody "important") we figured anybody that stayed in after the loyalty oath, knew about the adultery, but didn't care enuff to "take a stand" about it. I know different now, but can't quite put the pieces together.
-->
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excathedra
i can't find the danny post but i'm tired
we can all have been on staff or the corps or whatever
it doesn't change what happened for real
as in REALITY
it was 1975 when victor paul wierwille started to work his charm (puke) on me
i was honored to be spiritually chosen
come on, get a grip, you think people like marsha, etc., would lie
it's all so stupid now but it wasn't then
love,
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excathedra
oh shut up
i'm talking to myself
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ItsStillTheWord
Ex10,
I think you've just uncovered the answer as to why some of DID NOT KNOW until recently about all this stuff - PEOPLE WHO KNEW WERE AFRAID TO TALK. I never knew any of this stuff until the last two years.
Also, I also believe some that DID KNOW didn't think it was a big deal.
And, of course, there was the LBT. (Lock Box Theology)
-->
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Paradiseden
When the Schoenheit paper was "published" saying that sexual adultery was wrong, the Way condemned Schoenheit verbally, in writing, trashing him and telling people they should NOT EVEN READ THE PAPER BECAUSE READING IT "COULD UNDERMINE THE WORD OF GOD AND EVERYTHING THAT DR WIERWILLE HAS TAUGHT US."
This is exactly what people were told. Unbelievable!!! Unless you faced it in person, it is impossible to relate. If you had questions, people did not want to talk with you about it. And if you talked about it... they would not believe you unless it was a VERY close friend.
I told my branch coordinator that no one was going to tell me what I could and could not read. My credibility was questioned and two other corps people were sent to talk to me to help me get "spiritually right."
After locating a copy of "the paper" which was not easy to get back then, after reading it, I told people that all it said was sexual adultery was wrong in every administration.....they did not believe that was the topic of "the paper" and still would not read it (especially the Corps) because of the fear motivation coming out from Way headquarters.
I still have copies of some of the letters that people wrote to LCM and others questioning sexual adultery. Different answers were given to different people depending on your status within the Way.
Already at this time (late 1986 or early 1987) it was a your with us or against us mentality, unless of course, the limb coordinator decided to leave.....then people usually followed.
In my opinion, very few people did any thinking for themselves, less took any action, and the ones that did take action the result was.... MANY MANY GODLY, LOVING, GOOD, CHRISTIAN WOMEN AND MEN WHO TOOK A STAND AGAINST THE HYPOCRISY WERE FIRED, LIED ABOUT, AND KICKED OUT OR FORCED TO RESIGN WITH NO ONE TO TALK TO BECAUSE VERY FEW PEOPLE WOULD BELIEVE THEM (caps for emphasis). Some with 20+ years of service.
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ex10
Paradise
Geeze, this stuff gets deep. I too, still have copies of the paper, and all the correspondence that went along with it. Signed and dated. Copies of letters from Ralph D., John L., John S., Bo R., his brother, Robert B., to name a few. It's the only waycrap I've saved over the years. HA! Waygb, please take note.
:D-->
The funny thing is, I thought the paper was dircted at LCM, Howard and Don. I had no idea VP was involved at the time.
So when psychogeer mandated that everyone who read it or passed it on should be fired, I couldn't at first figure it out. OK, it took me about an hour.
:D-->
Having nothing to lose, being already "just a twig leader" and having no aspirations to be anything else, we made mega copies and passed it on to everyone whose address we had.
More people than you think had copies of it, and knew what was going on, they just didn't want to admit it. Of course anyone who wasn't on waypay, had nothing to lose. It was those who were afraid of "losing their jobs," that acted blind, deaf, and dumb. And of course, some of our twiggies who couldn't believe it. But that's a different story altogether.
The word was definitely out. And you're right. Very few people were willing to "go to bat" for the cause. But those who did, I admire still to this day. They had the chutzpah to speak up for what they believed in, no matter what it cost them personally!
I'll get off my soapbox now.
:D-->
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ex10
Oh yeah, and another thing. Many of the so called 'leaders" still left at the way, were players in the whole adultery thing. That's why they are still there, in my not so humble opinion. Either they are being blackmailed into staying, or they are just plain afraid that their dirty little secrets will get out if they leave.
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Oakspear
Even people who have no vested interest in staying with TWI (i.e. not involved in the abuses) will sometimes rationalize staying in despite knowledge of problems.
Look at people who stayed in after the April 2000 lawsuit announcement. TWI announced that Martindale was having an "affair" with a married woman, they kicked him out, yet still run his class. And people STILL stick with TWI.
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oldiesman
JustThinking,
Thanks so much for the compliment. I have to say though, in all honesty, I don't see myself as being slow to judge...I think I've done my fair share of judging, which is why I get a fair amount of criticism. But thanks for your kind words.
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oldiesman
I never knew the Corps tolerated adultery and still have mixed feelings about it. How can they honestly tolerate something that's such a betrayal of trust. I know I've heard the stupid excuses, like "shaking hands" and whatnot. I knew we tolerated fornication...and that issue seemed to be always dealt with as a private matter between, um, the fornicating parties.
But still and all, I think the adultery issue is irrelevant to Craig's 1989 request for commitment and loyalty to move the Word, at least where I was and the state I was in. Sex was not an issue. If it was an issue, I would have known about it back then, confronted it, and that's that.
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oldiesman
Oakspear, thanks for confirming the vagueness. I also see your point about not being involved after that. My actions would have been a little different; I would have stayed involved locally (if I was with honest folks) but not contributed any more money to hq unless and until my questions/complaints were answered satisfactorily.
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oldiesman
Radar, thanks, and you are correct. They can get involved if they want, but they want no part of this.
I personally would love to hear from the Wierwille's and what they think of all this, but it seems they're in the same boat, they don't want to get involved. But I'd still like to hear their perspectives.
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rascal
Commitment and loyalty to one whom repeatedly showed himself unworthey of that trust???
We had no problem being committed to God`s ministry OR helping move God`s word...but THAT WASN`T WHAT HE DEMANDED!!!!
YOU oldies man, are changing what was said.
Our commitment to God and twi meant nothing and was not permitted UNLESS we swore loyalty to lcm ..the MAN!!!!
We were not allowed to BE believers unless we swore loyalty to that MAN!!!
This MAN repeatedly showed his lack of spirituality...lack of perception....lack of morality...and yet WE weren`t going to be allowed to be participants in twi unless swearing an oath of loyalty to him...
WE never changed in our stands...we never changed in our commitment...we never stopped loving God or teaching his word to peaple...we never slowed down in our participation of outreach...but THAT was not good enough....not to be permitted...only...blind loyal obedience to lcm was acceptable....
When we tried to carry on our spiritual responsibilities we were stopped cold..we tried to remain committed to twi ...tried to honor our commtment to God...and were not wanted... were not to be loved.... were not to be tolerated.....unless or untill we swore an oath of loyalty to a man....it was black mail pure and simple...
Once again oldies....you are trying to make an unconscionable act appear reasonable....no way...
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Zshot
Excuse me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mixed feelings about adultry!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please explain what these "mixed feelings" are.
Anything less than disgust, anger, betrayal, shock is contemtable.
Leadership is supposed to set an example.
We now know the type of leadership that twi set.
IMO, It seems that the only "god" that these men worshiped is that they must have thought was a "god" between there legs. Maybe, that's why some of these people were/are pricks.
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oldiesman
Because it appears the missing ingredient, was your willingness to at least give Craig the benefit of the doubt and declare you'd be willing to stand with him in the movement of the Word.
One of the points I tried to make with VF, was that if his commitment level to TWI and God and the Word was so strong, vital, and sure, why would he allow Craig's request to stop him from doing what he really wanted to do; i.e., move the Word in TWI? So in that sense, Rascal, if you wanted so desperately to remain with TWI moving the Word, why not just give in a little, and do what he asked, which was:
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oldiesman
It's not mixed feelings about adultery being wrong, but mixed feelings about these folks tolerating it. It's hard to imagine something being so wrong, being tolerated and explained away like that.
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